From January 2019 KLM will be totally full flat. it has taken a long time, but all intercontinental planes will offer full lie-flat.
While it doens't sound like a big deal, it's the world standard after al, it's good news in my opinion. KLM was really getting left behind, and the new product is really up-to-par.
The old seats where called "sliding seats" jokingly, famously by model Doutzen Kroes.

The days of angled-lie flat are nearly gone, which large airlines still have them?

New A330-seats




Old Seats.


https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/categorie/2/airlines/vanaf-januari-geen-glijbaanstoelen-meer-in-klm-business-class?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Direct aisle access is the world standard, this is last gen and not up-to-par

Qantas don't have lie flat nor aisle access on all aircraft. A380 has lie flat. A330 has angled flat on ones yet to be returbished and don't have aisle accesss to all seats on A330 and 747.

FlyRow wrote:

The days of angled-lie flat are nearly gone, which large airlines still have them?

Ironically or not, Air France.

In addition there're quite a few airlines that has angled lie-flat, for example EK, SQ (yes, regional birds), CA, TG, BR, QF comes straight into my mind.

Michael

flylondon wrote:

Direct aisle access is the world standard, this is last gen and not up-to-par

And yet the majority doesn't have direct acces.

Air Canada has angled lie flat seats in business class on their 777/787fleet....with access to aisles...(haven’t flown the AC A330) Having flown BA, Emirates, United, KLM, and American in business over the last two years....I enjoy Air Canada’s product the most.


Nice to see KLM improve the product...but if I still gotta hop over people....I’ll pass for now unless the price is a steal.

flyingsikh wrote:

Air Canada has angled lie flat seats in business class on their 777/787fleet....with access to aisles...(haven’t flown the AC A330) Having flown BA, Emirates, United, KLM, and American in business over the last two years....I enjoy Air Canada’s product the most.
l.

I thought AC had the same type seats as VS and NZ.

flyingsikh wrote:

Air Canada has angled lie flat seats in business class on their 777/787fleet....with access to aisles...(haven’t flown the AC A330) Having flown BA, Emirates, United, KLM, and American in business over the last two years....I enjoy Air Canada’s product the most.


Nice to see KLM improve the product...but if I still gotta hop over people....I’ll pass for now unless the price is a steal.

Isn't AC business fully lie flat on every long haul?

I don't mind hopping over people and prefer these over some claustrophobic herringbow layout. And every now and again meet some interesting people.

flyingsikh wrote:

Air Canada has angled lie flat seats in business class on their 777/787fleet....with access to aisles...(haven’t flown the AC A330) Having flown BA, Emirates, United, KLM, and American in business over the last two years....I enjoy Air Canada’s product the most.


Nice to see KLM improve the product...but if I still gotta hop over people....I’ll pass for now unless the price is a steal.

AC had fully lie-flat on all widebodies, and has for years

These remind me of LH's new product where the centre seats are angled towards each other. Quite awkward if you're not travelling with someone you know. Also AC's seats are fully flat in Business, new gen on 777's and 787's old gen on 767 and A330's ( which are getting new gen next year ).

SaschaYHZ wrote:

flyingsikh wrote:

Air Canada has angled lie flat seats in business class on their 777/787fleet....with access to aisles...(haven’t flown the AC A330) Having flown BA, Emirates, United, KLM, and American in business over the last two years....I enjoy Air Canada’s product the most.


Nice to see KLM improve the product...but if I still gotta hop over people....I’ll pass for now unless the price is a steal.

AC had fully lie-flat on all widebodies, and has for years

Angled to isle....instead of staggered/reverse facing like BA or side by side seating as in KLM.

The way I read it early this morning....apologies =]

AF has angled lie flat seats, without direct access to the aisle on their A330, their flagship A380 and some 777s - and we're not talking about regional flights! AF sends angled flat seats on CDG-DEL routes.

I fly KL in J a fair amount. I actually like the seat. I take the center J seats so I can have aisle access. They are not like the LH seats where you are almost touching the other person's seat. More like DL's center two. So don't mind them. KL's 787 J is great (all aisle access). Btw I've been booked on KL A330 from JFK that showed angle flat but have always flown the new seats. So haven't got the old seats in a long time. AF's A380 is to be avoided the angle is really significant, and I can't sleep on it. Plus boarding at JFK is a pain. AF's A330/340 - I get confused about them. One of them says angle flat but is actually pretty flat and you sleep fine on a wide seat. If KL just updated their amenity kit (it is a joke right now - more like a Y one in a J bag) and improved their food a bit, they would be really good. AF on the other hand serves the weirdest second meal on their flight from CDG-JFK. I avoid them on the return. That all said, I like DL's A330 the best of all of them - J seats, food, service. Go figure.

flyingsikh wrote:

SaschaYHZ wrote:

flyingsikh wrote:

Air Canada has angled lie flat seats in business class on their 777/787fleet....with access to aisles...(haven’t flown the AC A330) Having flown BA, Emirates, United, KLM, and American in business over the last two years....I enjoy Air Canada’s product the most.


Nice to see KLM improve the product...but if I still gotta hop over people....I’ll pass for now unless the price is a steal.

AC had fully lie-flat on all widebodies, and has for years

Angled to isle....instead of staggered/reverse facing like BA or side by side seating as in KLM.

The way I read it early this morning....apologies =]

Ooops....mis-interpreted that

flylondon wrote:

Direct aisle access is the world standard, this is last gen and not up-to-par

According to whom? I couldn't care less about direct aisle access. BA has direct aisle access and they have the absolute worst J product there is, among lie flat seats.

Flanker7 wrote:

I don't mind hopping over people and prefer these over some claustrophobic herringbow layout. And every now and again meet some interesting people.

Me too!

I personally hate those narrow, plastic coffins!

I’m surprised at how many “major” airlines still have angled seats in business and also lack direct aisle access. In the recent past Aer Lingus was often criticised for having an angled business class offering and no direct aisle access. Aer Lingus relaunched their Business Class product in 2015 which now features fully flat seats in a staggered 1-2-1 and 1-2-2 configuration and direct aisle access for most passengers. At the time it felt like Aer Lingus was playing catch up when in reality they were running with the pack the whole time.

The new KLM product looks good to me, it may lack direct aisle access for all but it’s modern, stylish and a big improvement on the previous offering.

airbazar wrote:

flylondon wrote:

Direct aisle access is the world standard, this is last gen and not up-to-par

According to whom? I couldn't care less about direct aisle access. BA has direct aisle access and they have the absolute worst J product there is, among lie flat seats.

BA absolutely does not have direct aisle access from all seats. If you have to climb over someone in reclined mode or shimmy past their knees while seated, it's not direct aisle access. That's one of the reasons its terrible.

FlyRow wrote:

flylondon wrote:

Direct aisle access is the world standard, this is last gen and not up-to-par

And yet the majority doesn't have direct acces.

Frankly, aisle access is overrated and adds cost because it's not as efficient of a use of space. It's not that hard to step over someone...especially if aisle access is going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars...

I actually absolutely HATED the Polaris seat on United's 767-300 for 11 hours. I couldn't sit next to or converse with my wife anywhere. I mean truly 1st world problem, but 2-1-2 on the 767 was just fine thank you very much.

A full decade late!

The last time I flew KLM was on one of their ratty DC10 from DEL to ATL. The soft product is ok! But their hard product is a decade late.

FlyRow wrote:

It's the world standard

Installing seats with direct aisle access is the 'world standard' these days. Oh well, maybe in 10 years for KLM...

Also, you claim that 'now' it's all fully flat in the title, but you then say January 2019. Which is it?

WorldFlier wrote:

FlyRow wrote:

flylondon wrote:

Direct aisle access is the world standard, this is last gen and not up-to-par

And yet the majority doesn't have direct acces.

Frankly, aisle access is overrated and adds cost because it's not as efficient of a use of space. It's not that hard to step over someone...especially if aisle access is going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars...

I actually absolutely HATED the Polaris seat on United's 767-300 for 11 hours. I couldn't sit next to or converse with my wife anywhere. I mean truly 1st world problem, but 2-1-2 on the 767 was just fine thank you very much.

Ideally, you can design a product, like the reverse herringbone or (more so) Qatar's new Q-Suites, where both aisle access and the ability to sit with/converse with a partner is doable. Lots of airlines manage this.

I think that the main issue is that, despite your anecdote, the data from their big spenders doesn't agree with your outlook. Corporate flyers want privacy and ease of access, otherwise, airlines wouldn't bother.

EChid wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

FlyRow wrote:

And yet the majority doesn't have direct acces.

Frankly, aisle access is overrated and adds cost because it's not as efficient of a use of space. It's not that hard to step over someone...especially if aisle access is going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars...

I actually absolutely HATED the Polaris seat on United's 767-300 for 11 hours. I couldn't sit next to or converse with my wife anywhere. I mean truly 1st world problem, but 2-1-2 on the 767 was just fine thank you very much.

Ideally, you can design a product, like the reverse herringbone or (more so) Qatar's new Q-Suites, where both aisle access and the ability to sit with/converse with a partner is doable. Lots of airlines manage this.

I think that the main issue is that, despite your anecdote, the data from their big spenders doesn't agree with your outlook. Corporate flyers want privacy and ease of access, otherwise, airlines wouldn't bother.

That's fair, my point is just an anecdote. That being said, I will definitely fly the 767-300 Polaris on Business travel (thereby proving your point)

WorldFlier wrote:

Frankly, aisle access is overrated and adds cost because it's not as efficient of a use of space. It's not that hard to step over someone...especially if aisle access is going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars...

From an airline perspective sure! Direct aisle access is a waste of real estate.

But from a competitive perspective? When competition is offering direct aisle access at Business Class fare, wouldn't you opt for that?

BawliBooch wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

Frankly, aisle access is overrated and adds cost because it's not as efficient of a use of space. It's not that hard to step over someone...especially if aisle access is going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars...

From an airline perspective sure! Direct aisle access is a waste of real estate.

But from a competitive perspective? When competition is offering direct aisle access at Business Class fare, wouldn't you opt for that?

No not me, how often do i get out of my seat on a 8 to 10 hour flight maybe once or twice. I like the open feel of a cabin more then anything on long flights and see whats going on around me.

BawliBooch wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

Frankly, aisle access is overrated and adds cost because it's not as efficient of a use of space. It's not that hard to step over someone...especially if aisle access is going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars...

From an airline perspective sure! Direct aisle access is a waste of real estate.

But from a competitive perspective? When competition is offering direct aisle access at Business Class fare, wouldn't you opt for that?

Same price/miles? Sure. Extra $500? Probably not.

When i say direct aisle access, i dont mean what BA has done with that concept.

That's just....Ugh!

NH, JL, KE, OZ, CX all don't have fully lieflat fleet. Granted some planes are flown on "regional" routes, but those can be 5+ hours long.

notconcerned wrote:

NH, JL, KE, OZ, CX all don't have fully lieflat fleet. Granted some planes are flown on "regional" routes, but those can be 5+ hours long.

Yeah, and some of those are on recently purchased planes (like NH's 787s) so age isn't even to blame. It's an odd concept, given how competitive and otherwise impressive the service is in Asia and, as you say, how long some of these flights are.

KLM has 1-2-1 and some of there aircraft's have 2-2-2. Though EK, PIA, AF, and other carriers don't have lie flat seats yet in all their planes.

Flanker7 wrote:

BawliBooch wrote:

WorldFlier wrote:

Frankly, aisle access is overrated and adds cost because it's not as efficient of a use of space. It's not that hard to step over someone...especially if aisle access is going to cost me an extra few hundred dollars...

From an airline perspective sure! Direct aisle access is a waste of real estate.

But from a competitive perspective? When competition is offering direct aisle access at Business Class fare, wouldn't you opt for that?

No not me, how often do i get out of my seat on a 8 to 10 hour flight maybe once or twice. I like the open feel of a cabin more then anything on long flights and see whats going on around me.

You're clearly NOT a 50+-year old man! On that long a flight, I'm up maybe 20 times during the flight, so aisle access is critical unless I want a really unhappy seatmate.

Haven't been on any foreign carrier, but have been on the UA 767-400 and like that 2-1-2, the AA 77W, 77E and 763ER all were good seats, and DL 763ER and A333, again all good seats. Only really bad was the herringbone 77L from ATL to LAX. That was hard as a rock, and couldn't imagine the ongoing flight to SYD for 15 hours.

However, as my name implies, I do miss the old AA DC10s. Those F seats were incredibly roomy and comfortable and made for enjoyable transcon flights, even if 2-2-2, they never felt cramped which I agree some of the lay-flats do.

Am I the only one who doesn't mind not lying fully flat when sleeping on a plane?

I remember taking one flight in F, and rather than having the seat go fully flat, I just kept it reclined like a lounger & slept soundly like a baby.

DC10LAXJFK wrote:

Flanker7 wrote:

BawliBooch wrote:

From an airline perspective sure! Direct aisle access is a waste of real estate.

But from a competitive perspective? When competition is offering direct aisle access at Business Class fare, wouldn't you opt for that?

No not me, how often do i get out of my seat on a 8 to 10 hour flight maybe once or twice. I like the open feel of a cabin more then anything on long flights and see whats going on around me.

You're clearly NOT a 50+-year old man! On that long a flight, I'm up maybe 20 times during the flight, so aisle access is critical unless I want a really unhappy seatmate.

Haven't been on any foreign carrier, but have been on the UA 767-400 and like that 2-1-2, the AA 77W, 77E and 763ER all were good seats, and DL 763ER and A333, again all good seats. Only really bad was the herringbone 77L from ATL to LAX. That was hard as a rock, and couldn't imagine the ongoing flight to SYD for 15 hours.

However, as my name implies, I do miss the old AA DC10s. Those F seats were incredibly roomy and comfortable and made for enjoyable transcon flights, even if 2-2-2, they never felt cramped which I agree some of the lay-flats do.

Actually i am 55, so i take the window and you the aisle and lets talk about it.

bgm wrote:

FlyRow wrote:

It's the world standard

Installing seats with direct aisle access is the 'world standard' these days. Oh well, maybe in 10 years for KLM...

Also, you claim that 'now' it's all fully flat in the title, but you then say January 2019. Which is it?

Please show me where, I made of as Clear as possible that it's from 1-19

FlyRow wrote:

bgm wrote:

FlyRow wrote:

It's the world standard

Installing seats with direct aisle access is the 'world standard' these days. Oh well, maybe in 10 years for KLM...

Also, you claim that 'now' it's all fully flat in the title, but you then say January 2019. Which is it?

Please show me where, I made of as Clear as possible that it's from 1-19

The thread title you posted says:

KLM Business Class now fully lie flat

Now = October 2018 ≠ January 2019. Hope that's clear enough for you to understand.

bgm wrote:

FlyRow wrote:

bgm wrote:

Installing seats with direct aisle access is the 'world standard' these days. Oh well, maybe in 10 years for KLM...

Also, you claim that 'now' it's all fully flat in the title, but you then say January 2019. Which is it?

Please show me where, I made of as Clear as possible that it's from 1-19

The thread title you posted says:

KLM Business Class now fully lie flat

Now = October 2018 ≠ January 2019. Hope that's clear enough for you to understand.

Fun fact, my title was "KLM Business Class". Mods must have changed it.
And does the word nitpicking come to mind?

TheFlyingDisk wrote:

Am I the only one who doesn't mind not lying fully flat when sleeping on a plane?

I remember taking one flight in F, and rather than having the seat go fully flat, I just kept it reclined like a lounger & slept soundly like a baby.

Me too, I prefer to recline the seat.