superjeff wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.

Monarch
2017
The collapse of Monarch last year sparked Britain's biggest ever peacetime repatriation. Around 100,000 of its passengers were abroad on October 2, when it ceased trading, while a further 750,000 people had paid for flights they were no longer able to take. It was by far the biggest UK airline failure in history.

Until its collapse, Monarch served 43 destinations with a fleet of 35 aircraft. It flew 5.43 million passengers and employed 2,300 people in 2016, making it Europe's 26th largest airline (it carried more than 7 million in 2014).

Air Berlin
2017
Just one week after the collapse of Monarch, Air Berlin, Germany’s second largest carrier and Europe’s 10th biggest overall (it flew 28.9m passengers in 2016), announced its closure. It had declared bankruptcy two months before after years of losses and the decision of its biggest shareholder, Etihad, to cease bankrolling it.

At the time John Grant, an aviation analyst, suggested more failures could be on the cards: "The competitive environment has become increasingly challenging for many airlines, with many established legacy airlines launching low-cost long-haul services and the continual growth in services from airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian. This has resulted in many mid-market carriers with relatively high cost bases being continually squeezed to a point of failure.

"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."

Transaero
2014
Another of the biggest non-UK airlines to cease trading in recent years was Transaero, a Russian carrier with a fleet of 97 and 156 points on its route map. It carried 13.2 million passengers in 2014 but went under the following year after accumulating 3.9bn euros of debt.

FlyGlobespan
2009
The last UK carrier to cease trading before Monarch was Citywing, a virtual airline that operated under charter until March 2017, with a base at Isle of Man Airport, but the last major failure was FlyGlobespan, back in 2009. Based in Edinburgh, it had a fleet of nine aircraft, serving 24 destinations, and flew just over 2 million annual passengers at its height. When it went under, it had just 4,400 customers overseas, and 117,000 forward bookings – small fry compared to Monarch.

XL Airways
2008
In September 2008, XL Airways ceased trading after 14 years in business. It had a fleet of 18 aircraft serving more than 50 destinations, and carried 2.3 million passengers in 2007, but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group – due to rising fuel prices (crude oil hit an all-time record of $147 a barrel that summer) and a growing global financial crisis. Around 85,000 holidaymakers were stuck overseas, and a further 200,000 had their bookings cancelled.

Zoom Airlines
2008
Founded in 2002, Zoom largely operated flights between Britain and North America with a small fleet of three aircraft. Unable to pay its fuel bills, it ceased trading in August 2008, leaving 900 passengers stranded on either side of the Atlantic. Its failure left 4,500 stranded abroad, while 60,000 forward bookings were lost.

Silverjet
2008
Business-class carrier launched in 2006, billed as the “world’s first carbon-neutral airline”. Based in Luton, offering routes to Newark and Dubai, it only survived for two years, and its fleet never grew beyond three aircraft.

Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/list ... -all-time/

2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

Atlwarrior wrote:

I think Eastern Airlines top all of those.

airbazar wrote:

Bricktop wrote:

The key quote

"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."

It's heading that way with the 3 big groups anyway. Only nationalist vanity will keep some labels open. There will be more consolidation, and I think in a decade and possibly sooner you'll see the disappearance of low cost carriers in long haul. It will ultimately depend on how the competition authorities decide to put their thumb on the scale.

And yet we're seeing exactly the opposite happen: low cost and low fare carriers entering and expanding long haul. Yes some will fail but eventually the right formula will be found. Do you think the flying public will ever want to pay $1000 for TATL ticket when they've gotten used to paying $400? Not a chance.
What you call nationalist vanity is just a different business model. In the U.S. for example the majority of regional flying is actually done by a completely different airline (a "regional"), but branded as a major. In Europe that doesn't exist as much. Over there the majority of regional flying is done by either LCC's or by those smaller "national" airlines. Just look at any secondary airport and you'll be hard presses to find a tail from any of the top 3 groups. Do you think BA or LH or AF will ever be interested in flying a route like LIS-OVD for example? No, not a chance.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

superjeff wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.

Monarch
2017
The collapse of Monarch last year sparked Britain's biggest ever peacetime repatriation. Around 100,000 of its passengers were abroad on October 2, when it ceased trading, while a further 750,000 people had paid for flights they were no longer able to take. It was by far the biggest UK airline failure in history.

Until its collapse, Monarch served 43 destinations with a fleet of 35 aircraft. It flew 5.43 million passengers and employed 2,300 people in 2016, making it Europe's 26th largest airline (it carried more than 7 million in 2014).

Air Berlin
2017
Just one week after the collapse of Monarch, Air Berlin, Germany’s second largest carrier and Europe’s 10th biggest overall (it flew 28.9m passengers in 2016), announced its closure. It had declared bankruptcy two months before after years of losses and the decision of its biggest shareholder, Etihad, to cease bankrolling it.

At the time John Grant, an aviation analyst, suggested more failures could be on the cards: "The competitive environment has become increasingly challenging for many airlines, with many established legacy airlines launching low-cost long-haul services and the continual growth in services from airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian. This has resulted in many mid-market carriers with relatively high cost bases being continually squeezed to a point of failure.

"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."

Transaero
2014
Another of the biggest non-UK airlines to cease trading in recent years was Transaero, a Russian carrier with a fleet of 97 and 156 points on its route map. It carried 13.2 million passengers in 2014 but went under the following year after accumulating 3.9bn euros of debt.

FlyGlobespan
2009
The last UK carrier to cease trading before Monarch was Citywing, a virtual airline that operated under charter until March 2017, with a base at Isle of Man Airport, but the last major failure was FlyGlobespan, back in 2009. Based in Edinburgh, it had a fleet of nine aircraft, serving 24 destinations, and flew just over 2 million annual passengers at its height. When it went under, it had just 4,400 customers overseas, and 117,000 forward bookings – small fry compared to Monarch.

XL Airways
2008
In September 2008, XL Airways ceased trading after 14 years in business. It had a fleet of 18 aircraft serving more than 50 destinations, and carried 2.3 million passengers in 2007, but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group – due to rising fuel prices (crude oil hit an all-time record of $147 a barrel that summer) and a growing global financial crisis. Around 85,000 holidaymakers were stuck overseas, and a further 200,000 had their bookings cancelled.

Zoom Airlines
2008
Founded in 2002, Zoom largely operated flights between Britain and North America with a small fleet of three aircraft. Unable to pay its fuel bills, it ceased trading in August 2008, leaving 900 passengers stranded on either side of the Atlantic. Its failure left 4,500 stranded abroad, while 60,000 forward bookings were lost.

Silverjet
2008
Business-class carrier launched in 2006, billed as the “world’s first carbon-neutral airline”. Based in Luton, offering routes to Newark and Dubai, it only survived for two years, and its fleet never grew beyond three aircraft.

Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/list ... -all-time/

2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

Southwest is a major carrier, started before deregulation and has never gone bankrupt.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

superjeff wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.

Monarch
2017
The collapse of Monarch last year sparked Britain's biggest ever peacetime repatriation. Around 100,000 of its passengers were abroad on October 2, when it ceased trading, while a further 750,000 people had paid for flights they were no longer able to take. It was by far the biggest UK airline failure in history.

Until its collapse, Monarch served 43 destinations with a fleet of 35 aircraft. It flew 5.43 million passengers and employed 2,300 people in 2016, making it Europe's 26th largest airline (it carried more than 7 million in 2014).

Air Berlin
2017
Just one week after the collapse of Monarch, Air Berlin, Germany’s second largest carrier and Europe’s 10th biggest overall (it flew 28.9m passengers in 2016), announced its closure. It had declared bankruptcy two months before after years of losses and the decision of its biggest shareholder, Etihad, to cease bankrolling it.

At the time John Grant, an aviation analyst, suggested more failures could be on the cards: "The competitive environment has become increasingly challenging for many airlines, with many established legacy airlines launching low-cost long-haul services and the continual growth in services from airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian. This has resulted in many mid-market carriers with relatively high cost bases being continually squeezed to a point of failure.

"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."

Transaero
2014
Another of the biggest non-UK airlines to cease trading in recent years was Transaero, a Russian carrier with a fleet of 97 and 156 points on its route map. It carried 13.2 million passengers in 2014 but went under the following year after accumulating 3.9bn euros of debt.

FlyGlobespan
2009
The last UK carrier to cease trading before Monarch was Citywing, a virtual airline that operated under charter until March 2017, with a base at Isle of Man Airport, but the last major failure was FlyGlobespan, back in 2009. Based in Edinburgh, it had a fleet of nine aircraft, serving 24 destinations, and flew just over 2 million annual passengers at its height. When it went under, it had just 4,400 customers overseas, and 117,000 forward bookings – small fry compared to Monarch.

XL Airways
2008
In September 2008, XL Airways ceased trading after 14 years in business. It had a fleet of 18 aircraft serving more than 50 destinations, and carried 2.3 million passengers in 2007, but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group – due to rising fuel prices (crude oil hit an all-time record of $147 a barrel that summer) and a growing global financial crisis. Around 85,000 holidaymakers were stuck overseas, and a further 200,000 had their bookings cancelled.

Zoom Airlines
2008
Founded in 2002, Zoom largely operated flights between Britain and North America with a small fleet of three aircraft. Unable to pay its fuel bills, it ceased trading in August 2008, leaving 900 passengers stranded on either side of the Atlantic. Its failure left 4,500 stranded abroad, while 60,000 forward bookings were lost.

Silverjet
2008
Business-class carrier launched in 2006, billed as the “world’s first carbon-neutral airline”. Based in Luton, offering routes to Newark and Dubai, it only survived for two years, and its fleet never grew beyond three aircraft.

Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/list ... -all-time/

2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

Southwest is a major carrier, started before deregulation and has never gone bankrupt.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

Worldair1 wrote:

Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.

Don't think it would exist today especially with the semi repeal of the Wright Amendment and WN expanding but AA and Fort Worth certainly didn't help their cause lol.

That and fuel prices. They were no different that Midwest Airlines which had to move to offering traditional coach service. Then they added 717's which were too heavy for the job they wanted them to do thus inefficient.

Worldair1 wrote:

Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.

juliuswong wrote:

we look back at other notable airline failures.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

superjeff wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.

Monarch
2017
The collapse of Monarch last year sparked Britain's biggest ever peacetime repatriation. Around 100,000 of its passengers were abroad on October 2, when it ceased trading, while a further 750,000 people had paid for flights they were no longer able to take. It was by far the biggest UK airline failure in history.

Until its collapse, Monarch served 43 destinations with a fleet of 35 aircraft. It flew 5.43 million passengers and employed 2,300 people in 2016, making it Europe's 26th largest airline (it carried more than 7 million in 2014).

Air Berlin
2017
Just one week after the collapse of Monarch, Air Berlin, Germany’s second largest carrier and Europe’s 10th biggest overall (it flew 28.9m passengers in 2016), announced its closure. It had declared bankruptcy two months before after years of losses and the decision of its biggest shareholder, Etihad, to cease bankrolling it.

At the time John Grant, an aviation analyst, suggested more failures could be on the cards: "The competitive environment has become increasingly challenging for many airlines, with many established legacy airlines launching low-cost long-haul services and the continual growth in services from airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian. This has resulted in many mid-market carriers with relatively high cost bases being continually squeezed to a point of failure.

"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."

Transaero
2014
Another of the biggest non-UK airlines to cease trading in recent years was Transaero, a Russian carrier with a fleet of 97 and 156 points on its route map. It carried 13.2 million passengers in 2014 but went under the following year after accumulating 3.9bn euros of debt.

FlyGlobespan
2009
The last UK carrier to cease trading before Monarch was Citywing, a virtual airline that operated under charter until March 2017, with a base at Isle of Man Airport, but the last major failure was FlyGlobespan, back in 2009. Based in Edinburgh, it had a fleet of nine aircraft, serving 24 destinations, and flew just over 2 million annual passengers at its height. When it went under, it had just 4,400 customers overseas, and 117,000 forward bookings – small fry compared to Monarch.

XL Airways
2008
In September 2008, XL Airways ceased trading after 14 years in business. It had a fleet of 18 aircraft serving more than 50 destinations, and carried 2.3 million passengers in 2007, but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group – due to rising fuel prices (crude oil hit an all-time record of $147 a barrel that summer) and a growing global financial crisis. Around 85,000 holidaymakers were stuck overseas, and a further 200,000 had their bookings cancelled.

Zoom Airlines
2008
Founded in 2002, Zoom largely operated flights between Britain and North America with a small fleet of three aircraft. Unable to pay its fuel bills, it ceased trading in August 2008, leaving 900 passengers stranded on either side of the Atlantic. Its failure left 4,500 stranded abroad, while 60,000 forward bookings were lost.

Silverjet
2008
Business-class carrier launched in 2006, billed as the “world’s first carbon-neutral airline”. Based in Luton, offering routes to Newark and Dubai, it only survived for two years, and its fleet never grew beyond three aircraft.

Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/list ... -all-time/

2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

Southwest is a major carrier, started before deregulation and has never gone bankrupt.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

Worldair1 wrote:

Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.

Don't think it would exist today especially with the semi repeal of the Wright Amendment and WN expanding but AA and Fort Worth certainly didn't help their cause lol.

That and fuel prices. They were no different that Midwest Airlines which had to move to offering traditional coach service. Then they added 717's which were too heavy for the job they wanted them to do thus inefficient.

Worldair1 wrote:

Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.

twaconnie wrote:

Atlwarrior wrote:

I think Eastern Airlines top all of those.

I agree Eastern was big at one time they carried more pax then any airline. Poor management all the way.

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

we look back at other notable airline failures.

Please, enlighten me here. What are you considering as "notable failure"? Because based on all the exemples given in this thread, I don't find most of them that notable. Laker was, as was Braniff, Swissair, Ansett, Pan Am and a few others. But not just about any failures.

superjeff wrote:

TWFlyGuy wrote:

superjeff wrote:

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

Southwest is a major carrier, started before deregulation and has never gone bankrupt.

You are correct. Southwest was started in 1971, and an intrastate airline exclusively prior to deregulation. They were not regulated by the CAB prior to deregulation, and had much lower operating costs after deregulation due to being newer and having a younger workforce. They were not a “Major” until much later.

flyingclrs727 wrote:

superjeff wrote:

TWFlyGuy wrote:

Southwest is a major carrier, started before deregulation and has never gone bankrupt.

You are correct. Southwest was started in 1971, and an intrastate airline exclusively prior to deregulation. They were not regulated by the CAB prior to deregulation, and had much lower operating costs after deregulation due to being newer and having a younger workforce. They were not a “Major” until much later.

It wasn't just to having a younger workforce. Prior to deregulation, they had a had a fleet that was 100% Boeing 737-200. It require a cockpit crew of just 2 pilots when many other airlines were flying aircraft that required a flight engineer in addition to two pilots. The pilots' unions at other airlines insisted on maintaining flight engineers. Southwest never served hot meals, so they eliminated the galleys required to prepare and serve meals. This saved weight and costs, and the space freed up could be used to increase the number of seats. Very importantly, Southwest cut down the turnaround time. Planes make money when they are in the air not on the ground. The installed jet bridges at all the gates at all airports where they operated to make boarding and deboarding more efficient. At my home airport, they were the only airline with a jet bridge from the time when they started service in 1977 to 2002 when the new terminal opened. They had flexible work rules that meant flight attendants were involved in cleaning up cabins between flights. Basically Southwest was able to use its planes more intensively than its competitors with fewer employees than its competitors with none of the archaic work rules in force at the legacy carriers.

oldannyboy wrote:

Court Line was a pretty spectacular one... that left thousands of travelers stranded around the Mediterranean beaches...

superjeff wrote:

TWFlyGuy wrote:

superjeff wrote:

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

Southwest is a major carrier, started before deregulation and has never gone bankrupt.

You are correct. Southwest was started in 1971, and an intrastate airline exclusively prior to deregulation. They were not regulated by the CAB prior to deregulation, and had much lower operating costs after deregulation due to being newer and having a younger workforce. They were not a “Major” until much later.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

Super80Fan wrote:

Don't think it would exist today especially with the semi repeal of the Wright Amendment and WN expanding but AA and Fort Worth certainly didn't help their cause lol.

That and fuel prices. They were no different that Midwest Airlines which had to move to offering traditional coach service. Then they added 717's which were too heavy for the job they wanted them to do thus inefficient.

Worldair1 wrote:

Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.

I thought the question in this thread was MAJOR failures. I don’t think Skybus, People Express (2nd iteration), Legend, etc came close. And Legend never had 717’s, they operated with a fleet of about 6 DC9-30’s previously with Continental (ex Texas International). American was probably the largest reason they failed, not their choice of airplane.

twaconnie wrote:

Atlwarrior wrote:

I think Eastern Airlines top all of those.

I agree Eastern was big at one time they carried more pax then any airline. Poor management all the way.

Not so much Poor Management as a conflict between one particular manager (Borman) and one particular Union head (Charles Bryan of the IAM. There is a lot of blame to go round with this one, but at least some of the causes were due to items beyond Eastern’s control - People Express’ entry into the Northeast-Florida markets, which were Eastern’s bread and butter, at much lower operating costs and fares, being the one of them.

DL747400 wrote:

capshandler wrote:

What about the big legacy airlines that survived thanks to public constant bailouts... List is long but (not) distinguished.

You and everyone else know full well that the last C11 filings of the US3 were brought about by the 9/11 terror attacks and the resulting economic impact from the war on terror, primarily the huge increases in the price of oil. The C11 filing were totally and completely within the laws of the USA and the US taxpayer-backed loans provided after 9/11 were repaid in full at a net profit to the Treasury.

capshandler wrote:

DL747400 wrote:

capshandler wrote:

What about the big legacy airlines that survived thanks to public constant bailouts... List is long but (not) distinguished.

You and everyone else know full well that the last C11 filings of the US3 were brought about by the 9/11 terror attacks and the resulting economic impact from the war on terror, primarily the huge increases in the price of oil. The C11 filing were totally and completely within the laws of the USA and the US taxpayer-backed loans provided after 9/11 were repaid in full at a net profit to the Treasury.

It seems that you need to understand that the world goes way beyond the US3 you’re talking about. I was referring to some European examples which I know quite well. And I tell you it had to be that way at that time.

flyjay123 wrote:

oldannyboy wrote:

Court Line was a pretty spectacular one... that left thousands of travelers stranded around the Mediterranean beaches...

It's demise was the driving force behind the setting up of Atol in the early 1970's.

superjeff wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.

Monarch
2017
The collapse of Monarch last year sparked Britain's biggest ever peacetime repatriation. Around 100,000 of its passengers were abroad on October 2, when it ceased trading, while a further 750,000 people had paid for flights they were no longer able to take. It was by far the biggest UK airline failure in history.

Until its collapse, Monarch served 43 destinations with a fleet of 35 aircraft. It flew 5.43 million passengers and employed 2,300 people in 2016, making it Europe's 26th largest airline (it carried more than 7 million in 2014).

Air Berlin
2017
Just one week after the collapse of Monarch, Air Berlin, Germany’s second largest carrier and Europe’s 10th biggest overall (it flew 28.9m passengers in 2016), announced its closure. It had declared bankruptcy two months before after years of losses and the decision of its biggest shareholder, Etihad, to cease bankrolling it.

At the time John Grant, an aviation analyst, suggested more failures could be on the cards: "The competitive environment has become increasingly challenging for many airlines, with many established legacy airlines launching low-cost long-haul services and the continual growth in services from airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian. This has resulted in many mid-market carriers with relatively high cost bases being continually squeezed to a point of failure.

"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."

Transaero
2014
Another of the biggest non-UK airlines to cease trading in recent years was Transaero, a Russian carrier with a fleet of 97 and 156 points on its route map. It carried 13.2 million passengers in 2014 but went under the following year after accumulating 3.9bn euros of debt.

FlyGlobespan
2009
The last UK carrier to cease trading before Monarch was Citywing, a virtual airline that operated under charter until March 2017, with a base at Isle of Man Airport, but the last major failure was FlyGlobespan, back in 2009. Based in Edinburgh, it had a fleet of nine aircraft, serving 24 destinations, and flew just over 2 million annual passengers at its height. When it went under, it had just 4,400 customers overseas, and 117,000 forward bookings – small fry compared to Monarch.

XL Airways
2008
In September 2008, XL Airways ceased trading after 14 years in business. It had a fleet of 18 aircraft serving more than 50 destinations, and carried 2.3 million passengers in 2007, but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group – due to rising fuel prices (crude oil hit an all-time record of $147 a barrel that summer) and a growing global financial crisis. Around 85,000 holidaymakers were stuck overseas, and a further 200,000 had their bookings cancelled.

Zoom Airlines
2008
Founded in 2002, Zoom largely operated flights between Britain and North America with a small fleet of three aircraft. Unable to pay its fuel bills, it ceased trading in August 2008, leaving 900 passengers stranded on either side of the Atlantic. Its failure left 4,500 stranded abroad, while 60,000 forward bookings were lost.

Silverjet
2008
Business-class carrier launched in 2006, billed as the “world’s first carbon-neutral airline”. Based in Luton, offering routes to Newark and Dubai, it only survived for two years, and its fleet never grew beyond three aircraft.

Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/list ... -all-time/

2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

EA CO AS wrote:

I’m surprised no one has mentioned Kingfisher yet.

Max Q wrote:

superjeff wrote:

juliuswong wrote:

Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.

Monarch
2017
The collapse of Monarch last year sparked Britain's biggest ever peacetime repatriation. Around 100,000 of its passengers were abroad on October 2, when it ceased trading, while a further 750,000 people had paid for flights they were no longer able to take. It was by far the biggest UK airline failure in history.

Until its collapse, Monarch served 43 destinations with a fleet of 35 aircraft. It flew 5.43 million passengers and employed 2,300 people in 2016, making it Europe's 26th largest airline (it carried more than 7 million in 2014).

Air Berlin
2017
Just one week after the collapse of Monarch, Air Berlin, Germany’s second largest carrier and Europe’s 10th biggest overall (it flew 28.9m passengers in 2016), announced its closure. It had declared bankruptcy two months before after years of losses and the decision of its biggest shareholder, Etihad, to cease bankrolling it.

At the time John Grant, an aviation analyst, suggested more failures could be on the cards: "The competitive environment has become increasingly challenging for many airlines, with many established legacy airlines launching low-cost long-haul services and the continual growth in services from airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian. This has resulted in many mid-market carriers with relatively high cost bases being continually squeezed to a point of failure.

"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."

Transaero
2014
Another of the biggest non-UK airlines to cease trading in recent years was Transaero, a Russian carrier with a fleet of 97 and 156 points on its route map. It carried 13.2 million passengers in 2014 but went under the following year after accumulating 3.9bn euros of debt.

FlyGlobespan
2009
The last UK carrier to cease trading before Monarch was Citywing, a virtual airline that operated under charter until March 2017, with a base at Isle of Man Airport, but the last major failure was FlyGlobespan, back in 2009. Based in Edinburgh, it had a fleet of nine aircraft, serving 24 destinations, and flew just over 2 million annual passengers at its height. When it went under, it had just 4,400 customers overseas, and 117,000 forward bookings – small fry compared to Monarch.

XL Airways
2008
In September 2008, XL Airways ceased trading after 14 years in business. It had a fleet of 18 aircraft serving more than 50 destinations, and carried 2.3 million passengers in 2007, but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group – due to rising fuel prices (crude oil hit an all-time record of $147 a barrel that summer) and a growing global financial crisis. Around 85,000 holidaymakers were stuck overseas, and a further 200,000 had their bookings cancelled.

Zoom Airlines
2008
Founded in 2002, Zoom largely operated flights between Britain and North America with a small fleet of three aircraft. Unable to pay its fuel bills, it ceased trading in August 2008, leaving 900 passengers stranded on either side of the Atlantic. Its failure left 4,500 stranded abroad, while 60,000 forward bookings were lost.

Silverjet
2008
Business-class carrier launched in 2006, billed as the “world’s first carbon-neutral airline”. Based in Luton, offering routes to Newark and Dubai, it only survived for two years, and its fleet never grew beyond three aircraft.

Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/list ... -all-time/

2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines

In the United States the first major bankruptcy after deregulation was Braniff. That's a watershed. Since then, every single U.S. Major has gone through bankrutpcy and either merged or been acquired (and sometimes eventually gone away):

America West - Bankrupt, reorganized, acquired US AIrways in reverse merger
American - Bankrupt, reverse merger with US Airways
Braniff - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt restarted, bankrupt, gone (maintenance operations continued as Dalfort, now acquired)
Continental - Bankrupt, restarted, Bankrupt,restarted. Now merged with United
Delta - Bankrupt, merged with Northwest
Eastern - Bankrupt, liqudated (Eastern II doesn't count)
Frontier - Bankrupt, restarted
Northwest - bankrupt, merged with Delta
;Pan Am - Bankrupt, acquired by/merged with Carnival, bankrupt;name sold, restarted, bankrupt
TWA - Bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, restarted, bankrupt, assets acquired by American
United - Bankrupt, reorganized, merged with Continental

Deregulation has been kind of scary!

Not every US major


Southwest has never filed CH11

TWFlyGuy wrote:

superjeff wrote:

TWFlyGuy wrote:

Southwest is a major carrier, started before deregulation and has never gone bankrupt.

You are correct. Southwest was started in 1971, and an intrastate airline exclusively prior to deregulation. They were not regulated by the CAB prior to deregulation, and had much lower operating costs after deregulation due to being newer and having a younger workforce. They were not a “Major” until much later.

TWFlyGuy wrote:

That and fuel prices. They were no different that Midwest Airlines which had to move to offering traditional coach service. Then they added 717's which were too heavy for the job they wanted them to do thus inefficient.

Worldair1 wrote:

Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.

I thought the question in this thread was MAJOR failures. I don’t think Skybus, People Express (2nd iteration), Legend, etc came close. And Legend never had 717’s, they operated with a fleet of about 6 DC9-30’s previously with Continental (ex Texas International). American was probably the largest reason they failed, not their choice of airplane.

twaconnie wrote:

I agree Eastern was big at one time they carried more pax then any airline. Poor management all the way.

Not so much Poor Management as a conflict between one particular manager (Borman) and one particular Union head (Charles Bryan of the IAM. There is a lot of blame to go round with this one, but at least some of the causes were due to items beyond Eastern’s control - People Express’ entry into the Northeast-Florida markets, which were Eastern’s bread and butter, at much lower operating costs and fares, being the one of them.

Given the other carriers that have been named, Southwest should definitely be on the list. Heck, the title includes the Trump shuttle...hardly major.
As for my reference to 717's, I was referring to ME's use of them. Legend had a similar business model to ME, both failed. ME tried moving to add traditional coach out of necessity as well as upgrading the fleet. Neither worked because the model was flawed long term. Legend had similar issue.

WALmsp wrote:

Western Airlines II (2007)