Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
olddominion727 wrote:PanAm, Braniff, Aloha, British Caledonian, PSA, AirCal, Continental, America West, Northwest, TWA, Eastern, Western, World Airways, Ansett of Australia, Air Inter, Transamerica, CPAir, Canadian International, MorrisAir, Mexicana
FA9295 wrote:Alitalia is currently headed in this exact direction.
juliuswong wrote:but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group
kaitak wrote:FA9295 wrote:Alitalia is currently headed in this exact direction.
Alitalia has been heading in this direction for years!
sholmes wrote:kaitak wrote:FA9295 wrote:Alitalia is currently headed in this exact direction.
Alitalia has been heading in this direction for years!
Alitalia would have been and would be the biggest airline failure of all times ... if only AZ were allowed to fail: it is now at the third (or fourth ?) bankruptcy but every time it has been saved by the Italian state (and the current Italian government is openly talking of re-nationalising AZ: straight back to the 70s).
FA9295 wrote:Alitalia is currently headed in this exact direction.
sholmes wrote:Alitalia would have been and would be the biggest airline failure of all times ... if only AZ were allowed to fail: it is now at the third (or fourth ?) bankruptcy but every time it has been saved by the Italian state (and the current Italian government is openly talking of re-nationalising AZ: straight back to the 70s).
juliuswong wrote:Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.
2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines
Bricktop wrote:The key quote
"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."
It's heading that way with the 3 big groups anyway. Only nationalist vanity will keep some labels open. There will be more consolidation, and I think in a decade and possibly sooner you'll see the disappearance of low cost carriers in long haul. It will ultimately depend on how the competition authorities decide to put their thumb on the scale.
neomax wrote:To be honest, it's probably best if AZ didn't fail. People on here take airline collapses way too lightly; they're gigantic companies that have routes to all kinds of places which requires tons of agreements and paperwork worth years in one of the most heavily regulated and difficult industries in which to operate, and that's to say nothing about the well-know and established reputation they've built up in that time. You can't really compare AB to AZ because AB isn't the flag carrier of Germany. You better believe Germany would NEVER let LH go under because they are the flag carrier, not AB. Italy is gonna do what it has to do to keep AZ alive, because the cost of funding it is easily outweighed by the number of people it brings in and who spend their money in Italy. A strong national airline is a real asset to a country and economics is not everything. A collapse of a flag carrier is virtually unheard of, and for good reason, it would be calamitous at best and catastrophic at worst. Italy is not one of those countries that has multiple or secondary carriers that can be allowed to fail, they only have one and that's Alitalia. Hedging anything on Air Italy right now is a risky bet because they aren't even a year old. If AZ goes under, Italy's domestic air travel market instantly goes in the toilet and you can chuck any idea of bringing in international visitors out the window. The collapse of Monarch was the biggest failure of a British airline in history and people had barely ever heard of them, and even then it causes a crisis and one of the biggest repatriation efforts ever undertaken by the UK. Way more people fly Alitalia, can you imagine the disaster that would ensue from that? It would be nothing short of an absolute catastrophe. Italians would be stranded with extremely limited domestic air travel options and would subject to the whims of other carriers for international travel. If all of this sounds bad, that's because it is. That's why Alitalia, SAA, and Etihad are not allowed to fail; the benefits outweigh the insane risks of allowing them to go under. Thousands of people would lose their jobs, passengers would lose critical air links, and competition would become nonexistent overnight.
PlaneInsomniac wrote:Bricktop wrote:The key quote
"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."
It's heading that way with the 3 big groups anyway. Only nationalist vanity will keep some labels open. There will be more consolidation, and I think in a decade and possibly sooner you'll see the disappearance of low cost carriers in long haul. It will ultimately depend on how the competition authorities decide to put their thumb on the scale.
Population US: 325 million
Population Europe: 741 million
Plus, consider the different languages / cultures.
So it's a bit apples and oranges.
Bricktop wrote:PlaneInsomniac wrote:Bricktop wrote:The key quote
"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."
It's heading that way with the 3 big groups anyway. Only nationalist vanity will keep some labels open. There will be more consolidation, and I think in a decade and possibly sooner you'll see the disappearance of low cost carriers in long haul. It will ultimately depend on how the competition authorities decide to put their thumb on the scale.
Population US: 325 million
Population Europe: 741 million
Plus, consider the different languages / cultures.
So it's a bit apples and oranges.
If you include Russia (144 mm), Turkey (81) Ukraine (42) Kazakhstan (18) and Azerbaijan (10) then sure. But I can easily lop off almost 300 million from your number. Notwithstanding, there are a lot of countries in "Europe" that are smaller in size than London. Common sense says that O&D traffic can't support so many airlines, and if I was a betting man, I would say that a big consolidation or wave of disappearances is well due in Europe. If oil prices go up, look out below. I would also bet that the OEMs are well aware of the softness in their order books.
olddominion727 wrote:PanAm, Braniff, Aloha, British Caledonian, PSA, AirCal, Continental, America West, Northwest, TWA, Eastern, Western, World Airways, Ansett of Australia, Air Inter, Transamerica, CPAir, Canadian International, MorrisAir, Mexicana
oldannyboy wrote:FA9295 wrote:Alitalia is currently headed in this exact direction.
Sorry, but no, you really have no idea how things work in Rome! Ain't gonna happen!
We can keep talking ad nauseam whether it's right or wrong, whether a state (read: taxpayers) should forage an airline to keep it afloat, etc.. but fact is, no Italian government will ever let AZ fold. Make peace with that.
olddominion727 wrote:PanAm, Braniff, Aloha, British Caledonian, PSA, AirCal, Continental, America West, Northwest, TWA, Eastern, Western, World Airways, Ansett of Australia, Air Inter, Transamerica, CPAir, Canadian International, MorrisAir, Mexicana
neomax wrote:To be honest, it's probably best if AZ didn't fail. People on here take airline collapses way too lightly; they're gigantic companies that have routes to all kinds of places which requires tons of agreements and paperwork worth years in one of the most heavily regulated and difficult industries in which to operate, and that's to say nothing about the well-know and established reputation they've built up in that time. You can't really compare AB to AZ because AB isn't the flag carrier of Germany. You better believe Germany would NEVER let LH go under because they are the flag carrier, not AB. Italy is gonna do what it has to do to keep AZ alive, because the cost of funding it is easily outweighed by the number of people it brings in and who spend their money in Italy. A strong national airline is a real asset to a country and economics is not everything. A collapse of a flag carrier is virtually unheard of, and for good reason, it would be calamitous at best and catastrophic at worst. Italy is not one of those countries that has multiple or secondary carriers that can be allowed to fail, they only have one and that's Alitalia. Hedging anything on Air Italy right now is a risky bet because they aren't even a year old. If AZ goes under, Italy's domestic air travel market instantly goes in the toilet and you can chuck any idea of bringing in international visitors out the window. The collapse of Monarch was the biggest failure of a British airline in history and people had barely ever heard of them, and even then it causes a crisis and one of the biggest repatriation efforts ever undertaken by the UK. Way more people fly Alitalia, can you imagine the disaster that would ensue from that? It would be nothing short of an absolute catastrophe. Italians would be stranded with extremely limited domestic air travel options and would subject to the whims of other carriers for international travel. If all of this sounds bad, that's because it is. That's why Alitalia, SAA, and Etihad are not allowed to fail; the benefits outweigh the insane risks of allowing them to go under. Thousands of people would lose their jobs, passengers would lose critical air links, and competition would become nonexistent overnight.
olddominion727 wrote:PanAm, Braniff, Aloha, British Caledonian, PSA, AirCal, Continental, America West, Northwest, TWA, Eastern, Western, World Airways, Ansett of Australia, Air Inter, Transamerica, CPAir, Canadian International, MorrisAir, Mexicana
Italianflyer wrote:Swissair? SEBENA?
capshandler wrote:What about the big legacy airlines that survived thanks to public constant bailouts... List is long but (not) distinguished.
Atlwarrior wrote:I think Eastern Airlines top all of those.
TWFlyGuy wrote:I may have missed it but Midway...every iteration.
juliuswong wrote:Following the collapse of Primera Air, whose fleet of seven aircraft served 41 destinations, we look back at other notable airline failures.
Monarch
2017
The collapse of Monarch last year sparked Britain's biggest ever peacetime repatriation. Around 100,000 of its passengers were abroad on October 2, when it ceased trading, while a further 750,000 people had paid for flights they were no longer able to take. It was by far the biggest UK airline failure in history.
Until its collapse, Monarch served 43 destinations with a fleet of 35 aircraft. It flew 5.43 million passengers and employed 2,300 people in 2016, making it Europe's 26th largest airline (it carried more than 7 million in 2014).
Air Berlin
2017
Just one week after the collapse of Monarch, Air Berlin, Germany’s second largest carrier and Europe’s 10th biggest overall (it flew 28.9m passengers in 2016), announced its closure. It had declared bankruptcy two months before after years of losses and the decision of its biggest shareholder, Etihad, to cease bankrolling it.
At the time John Grant, an aviation analyst, suggested more failures could be on the cards: "The competitive environment has become increasingly challenging for many airlines, with many established legacy airlines launching low-cost long-haul services and the continual growth in services from airlines such as easyJet, Ryanair and Norwegian. This has resulted in many mid-market carriers with relatively high cost bases being continually squeezed to a point of failure.
"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."
Transaero
2014
Another of the biggest non-UK airlines to cease trading in recent years was Transaero, a Russian carrier with a fleet of 97 and 156 points on its route map. It carried 13.2 million passengers in 2014 but went under the following year after accumulating 3.9bn euros of debt.
FlyGlobespan
2009
The last UK carrier to cease trading before Monarch was Citywing, a virtual airline that operated under charter until March 2017, with a base at Isle of Man Airport, but the last major failure was FlyGlobespan, back in 2009. Based in Edinburgh, it had a fleet of nine aircraft, serving 24 destinations, and flew just over 2 million annual passengers at its height. When it went under, it had just 4,400 customers overseas, and 117,000 forward bookings – small fry compared to Monarch.
XL Airways
2008
In September 2008, XL Airways ceased trading after 14 years in business. It had a fleet of 18 aircraft serving more than 50 destinations, and carried 2.3 million passengers in 2007, but it collapsed – along with the other brands in the XL Leisure group – due to rising fuel prices (crude oil hit an all-time record of $147 a barrel that summer) and a growing global financial crisis. Around 85,000 holidaymakers were stuck overseas, and a further 200,000 had their bookings cancelled.
Zoom Airlines
2008
Founded in 2002, Zoom largely operated flights between Britain and North America with a small fleet of three aircraft. Unable to pay its fuel bills, it ceased trading in August 2008, leaving 900 passengers stranded on either side of the Atlantic. Its failure left 4,500 stranded abroad, while 60,000 forward bookings were lost.
Silverjet
2008
Business-class carrier launched in 2006, billed as the “world’s first carbon-neutral airline”. Based in Luton, offering routes to Newark and Dubai, it only survived for two years, and its fleet never grew beyond three aircraft.
Full article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/list ... -all-time/
2018 has seen below airlines folded up:
Primera
Skywork
JetGo
NextJet
Nature Air
Latin American Wings
Pawa Dominica
Polar Airlines
Bricktop wrote:The key quote
"There are perhaps too many airlines in Europe today relative to the size of the market, with too many struggling to keep market share. In the United States, five major airlines provide some 80 per cent plus of scheduled capacity and that may be where the European market will head over time."
It's heading that way with the 3 big groups anyway. Only nationalist vanity will keep some labels open. There will be more consolidation, and I think in a decade and possibly sooner you'll see the disappearance of low cost carriers in long haul. It will ultimately depend on how the competition authorities decide to put their thumb on the scale.
Worldair1 wrote:Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.
Super80Fan wrote:Worldair1 wrote:Legend Airlines killed by American. Flew them twice from IAD to love. Great service and had DirectTV back in 2000.
Don't think it would exist today especially with the semi repeal of the Wright Amendment and WN expanding but AA and Fort Worth certainly didn't help their cause lol.