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airportugal310 wrote:There has to be waaaaaaay more to this story than meets the eye
FlyHappy wrote:airportugal310 wrote:There has to be waaaaaaay more to this story than meets the eye
probably not much more than being in a dispute with the authorities there (invalid single use visa, entry not allowed), where she was probably too "assertive" and also foolishly admitted to having consumed wine on the flight. Bingo - "cause has been established".
Lets be frank - women aren't exactly looked upon with the highest regard in that area, and this woman probably pushed things a bit too far, not realizing that she didn't have that much to stand on.
back to the big picture - of course, it is breathlessly hypocritical that the ME3 serve and promote booze on their flights. for pax from more liberal cultures, the allure of shiny towers or big aircraft should never hide the fact that you are engaging with a culture and country that sees your own as corrupt, decadent and immoral. They will take your money, use your labor, sell you an image. But that doesn't change who they are or who you are.
Its your choice.
This story provides a bit more detail:
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/e ... 08756.html
smokeybandit wrote:Don't they need to serve alcohol to keep their #1 rating among American passengers?:)
flybynight wrote:I believe similar events have happend to males as well. But you're right, as a male you might have gotten a better chance of getting away with it. Sucks, but it is the way it is.
rbavfan wrote:smokeybandit wrote:Don't they need to serve alcohol to keep their #1 rating among American passengers?:)
Or the european crowd that keeps making airlines land planes early due to someone drunk and unruly on the flight.
See how easy it is to make a rude assumption online now.
flybynight wrote:It seems to be very hypocritical of Emirates to offer alcohol to flyers coming into Dubai if the could get into serious trouble.
A Brit was recently arrested after landing in Dubai.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6986998/how-brit-tourists-can-be-arrested-for-drinking-alcohol-on-flights-to-dubai/
I respect the laws of the country and ignorance of it is an not excuse. But tempting or even bating people is not fair either. Not to sound too American, but I'd be tempted to sue Emirates.
george77300 wrote:
REPORTED AS INVALID VISA
That is the reason for the arrest not alcohol.
george77300 wrote:flybynight wrote:It seems to be very hypocritical of Emirates to offer alcohol to flyers coming into Dubai if the could get into serious trouble.
A Brit was recently arrested after landing in Dubai.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6986998/how-brit-tourists-can-be-arrested-for-drinking-alcohol-on-flights-to-dubai/
I respect the laws of the country and ignorance of it is an not excuse. But tempting or even bating people is not fair either. Not to sound too American, but I'd be tempted to sue Emirates.
REPORTED AS INVALID VISA
That is the reason for the arrest not alcohol.
airportugal310 wrote:There has to be waaaaaaay more to this story than meets the eye
scbriml wrote:There is way more to this 'story' than is being reported in The Sun.
I've lived and worked in Dubai, commuting every month between there and home. I've never had any problem with having consumed alcohol on the flight to Dubai (either EK or BA).
scbriml wrote:Yes, if you're stupid enough to get smashed out of your head in public, or try and have sex on the beach, you will likely find yourself inside a room with bars (of the steel kind). Dubai receives millions of visitors every year and only a very small minority manage to be so stupid they get themselves arrested.
c933103 wrote:Well a law is only useful when you can arrest people based on it
Armodeen wrote:* Arrives without a visa (note British passport holders are visa on arrival for the UAE, I presume from the article she is Swedish passport holder).
*Argues with the official and causes a scene
*Attempts to film the altercation - a really big no no.
Only after it kicks off are they interested in the alcohol. Seems she behaved like a typical entitled person who really didn’t think about where she was before kicking up fuss. That may work in the west, it definitely doesn’t in the gulf.
Of course jail time is excessively harsh but she gave them the excuse to lock her up instead of just deporting her.
Armodeen wrote:* Arrives without a visa (note British passport holders are visa on arrival for the UAE, I presume from the article she is Swedish passport holder).
*Argues with the official and causes a scene
*Attempts to film the altercation - a really big no no.
Only after it kicks off are they interested in the alcohol. Seems she behaved like a typical entitled person who really didn’t think about where she was before kicking up fuss. That may work in the west, it definitely doesn’t in the gulf.
Of course jail time is excessively harsh but she gave them the excuse to lock her up instead of just deporting her.
Armodeen wrote:* Arrives without a visa (note British passport holders are visa on arrival for the UAE, I presume from the article she is Swedish passport holder).
*Argues with the official and causes a scene
*Attempts to film the altercation - a really big no no.
Only after it kicks off are they interested in the alcohol. Seems she behaved like a typical entitled person who really didn’t think about where she was before kicking up fuss. That may work in the west, it definitely doesn’t in the gulf.
Of course jail time is excessively harsh but she gave them the excuse to lock her up instead of just deporting her.
727200 wrote:So typical of today's entitled generation. Do something wrong? Just blame them for catching you. Caused a scene? Yell gender or prejudice at every opportunity. But NEVER take responsibility for your actions.
I am surprised she was allowed to board the carrier with an expired Visa tho.
peanuts wrote:adambrau wrote:1) Isn't it the responsibility of the airline to make sure travel documents and visas are valid prior to passengers being issued a boarding pass? So on this point alone some EK rep screwed up and allowed the passenger to board with a used single entry visa. One strike against EK.
^^^this
EK should fly her back at their expense...
In general, just poor politics. This snafu serves Dubai no good.
Having your ego stroked as a law enforcement officer will just hurt you, eventually.
And let's be honest; jetting off to Dubai with your child for a fun time "together"? There are about a thousand better places for that. Geez. This story is bad from both angles.
waly777 wrote:peanuts wrote:adambrau wrote:1) Isn't it the responsibility of the airline to make sure travel documents and visas are valid prior to passengers being issued a boarding pass? So on this point alone some EK rep screwed up and allowed the passenger to board with a used single entry visa. One strike against EK.
^^^this
EK should fly her back at their expense...
In general, just poor politics. This snafu serves Dubai no good.
Having your ego stroked as a law enforcement officer will just hurt you, eventually.
And let's be honest; jetting off to Dubai with your child for a fun time "together"? There are about a thousand better places for that. Geez. This story is bad from both angles.
They were going to fly her back at their own expense, an immigration requested return is 99% of the time at the carriers expense. She was asked to go back and she refused to get on the plane, caused a scene and then decided to film it on top of that (there is a UAE law against that as it is). It is not politics, ignorance of laws is not a valid legal defence anywhere.
She had the choice to take the easy route and go back home quietly, it's nothing to do with ego of an officer. Don't piss off people who have the power to make you miserable, i thought this was common sense? She's learning that lesson the hard way.
moo wrote:waly777 wrote:peanuts wrote:
They were going to fly her back at their own expense, an immigration requested return is 99% of the time at the carriers expense. She was asked to go back and she refused to get on the plane, caused a scene and then decided to film it on top of that (there is a UAE law against that as it is). It is not politics, ignorance of laws is not a valid legal defence anywhere.
She had the choice to take the easy route and go back home quietly, it's nothing to do with ego of an officer. Don't piss off people who have the power to make you miserable, i thought this was common sense? She's learning that lesson the hard way.
While Emirates are required to remove the passenger under their own expense (as in, no expense incurred to the rejecting country), they are entitled under IATA rules to recover that cost from the passenger.
adambrau wrote:Are there signs onboard or does EK make announcements about non-residents without a permit to not drink on the plane?
Casablanca wrote:As a US citizen- I would never think of arguing with CBP official in my own country...., it will not end well!
Every country I have been to has strict laws about phones/ filming in immigration. This would not have ended well even in Europe/ USA
I think they just threw the book at her cause she pissed someone off.
moo wrote:The people trying to place blame on Emirates for missing the visa issue here are themselves missing the point - the airlines do visa checks so they avoid the fines issued by countries to airlines bringing in ineligible visitors.
Airlines are not responsible to passengers for their visas. Not in any way at all. Emirates holds no responsibility toward the passenger here at all for the passenger being allowed to board with a visa issue, that is entirely the passengers issue themselves - passengers should not treat the airlines check as a get out clause.
adambrau wrote:moo wrote:The people trying to place blame on Emirates for missing the visa issue here are themselves missing the point - the airlines do visa checks so they avoid the fines issued by countries to airlines bringing in ineligible visitors.
Airlines are not responsible to passengers for their visas. Not in any way at all. Emirates holds no responsibility toward the passenger here at all for the passenger being allowed to board with a visa issue, that is entirely the passengers issue themselves - passengers should not treat the airlines check as a get out clause.
Wait - not sure what you mean?
Paragraph 1
I never mentioned why visas were checked. I assumed everyone knows that it's a bad file to have in your record. Your Airline pays possible fines and possible return plane ticket forms pax. Airlines are required to do document checks which include visas validity, as the airline might be fined by country pax was deemed ineligible to enter. It was some years ago I worked as a customer service rep for Swissair at JFK, and most of the checkin work was done by our partner Delta. Mid 1998's. Allowing a pax to board without DOCS going thru the Timatic was a no no because of the fine. Better to say no if you can't determine and superiors occupied doing more important work, and deny pax. Than have them refused at destination hours later and returned.
Especially a pax who
1) broke a generally unknown/unadvertized rule by accepting a glass of wine (maybe she had more) being offered by Airline cabin staff.
2) Unfortunately when she misbehaved on arrival with her visa deemed inadequate.
Paragraph 2
The second paragraph, and maybe I misunderstand you, for which I apologize. But it seems to support the theory that checkin staff at origin are not responsible for checking pax visas' are valid for destination.
Isn't it either one or the other?
Fine Airline or not fine cuz they don't pay anyway?
Check Visa and validity (good idea) or don't? (because for some reason blaming the airline agent who missed a detail and then all of this resulted, is a weak attack on Checkin Agents who shouldn't have to figure out the visa in said passport is valid for the upcoming flight)
Unfortunate all round but Gatwick EK is to blame for letting this whole event transpire. How much trauma and mental issues, has been caused by this. I won't get started on the contradiction of the Airline serving alcohol on flights into Dubai. Or the security lapse of pax boarding without DOCS check. This is just not what I would expect of EK...
FlyHappy wrote:scbriml wrote:There is way more to this 'story' than is being reported in The Sun.
I've lived and worked in Dubai, commuting every month between there and home. I've never had any problem with having consumed alcohol on the flight to Dubai (either EK or BA).
Have you ever been asked by an Emirati Immigration officer if you consumed alcohol on the plane? I'm guessing not; thus you were not already a target.
FlyHappy wrote:You imply that this woman was "so stupid" for getting herself arrested, only because millions of others (yourself included) have not.
FlyHappy wrote:I agree this woman should have known her visa was invalid; I think it **highly likely** that she spoke foolishly to the authorities (out of anger or maybe entitlement, who knows) when told she could not enter the country and would need to leave. I blame her for not being aware enough of UAE custom and law (she had been there before) that lying about the wine consumed would have been far, far smarter than telling the truth.
FlyHappy wrote:The question really is - should a society that criminalizes alcohol be in the business of promoting on flights to their own country?
despite your experiences, I think the answer is no, and not having been in the position of falling into a trap like this does not make it a "fair" trap, nor does it prove that those who do are stupid.
moo wrote:adambrau wrote:moo wrote:The people trying to place blame on Emirates for missing the visa issue here are themselves missing the point - the airlines do visa checks so they avoid the fines issued by countries to airlines bringing in ineligible visitors.
Airlines are not responsible to passengers for their visas. Not in any way at all. Emirates holds no responsibility toward the passenger here at all for the passenger being allowed to board with a visa issue, that is entirely the passengers issue themselves - passengers should not treat the airlines check as a get out clause.
Wait - not sure what you mean?
Paragraph 1
I never mentioned why visas were checked. I assumed everyone knows that it's a bad file to have in your record. Your Airline pays possible fines and possible return plane ticket forms pax. Airlines are required to do document checks which include visas validity, as the airline might be fined by country pax was deemed ineligible to enter. It was some years ago I worked as a customer service rep for Swissair at JFK, and most of the checkin work was done by our partner Delta. Mid 1998's. Allowing a pax to board without DOCS going thru the Timatic was a no no because of the fine. Better to say no if you can't determine and superiors occupied doing more important work, and deny pax. Than have them refused at destination hours later and returned.
Especially a pax who
1) broke a generally unknown/unadvertized rule by accepting a glass of wine (maybe she had more) being offered by Airline cabin staff.
2) Unfortunately when she misbehaved on arrival with visa deemed inadequate. SADLY SHE COULD HAVE GOTTEN A VISA ON ARRIVAL IF SHE HAD A SWEDISH PASSPORT. IT TOOK ME 2 SECONDS TO GOOGLE IT!
"Visa on arrival" is something very difficult to check, especially as short term visas already issued may not be available to the airline in any form, so the airline cannot check every possibility - they have to assume that, based on the passengers eligibility, they would be issued with a visa on arrival.
HOW COULD EK AGENTS WHO WORK AT GATWICK not know which passport requires a valid visa and that visa on arrival is verboten? SHE COULD HAVE SECURED A VISA ON ARRIVAL WITH A SWEDISH PASSPORT. IF INDEED HER PASSPORT WAS SWEDISH, she would have been issued a 90 day multi-entry visa so it SOUNDS LIKE SHE WAS SOME OTHER NATIONALITY...
UAE visa information - from EMIRATES...
Before you travel to the UAE, please check your visa requirements and make sure you have a valid visa if needed, or if your passport needs to be valid for a minimum period. Holders of non-standard passports and travel documents may also have different entry requirements: find out if you need to apply for a visa and other passport requirements.
As of 29 April 2016, GCC residence permit holders will need to apply for a UAE visa before arriving in Dubai.
As of 1 May 2017, Indian nationals holding a normal passport valid for a minimum of six months from the arrival date, and a visit visa or green card issued by the USA which is valid for a minimum of six months, can obtain a visa on arrival for a maximum stay of 14 days for a charge of AED120 (subject to change). They can apply to extend their stay for an additional 14 days for AED250 (subject to change).
Visas on arrival
(A) If you are a passport holder of the below country or territory, no advance visa arrangements are required to visit the UAE. Simply disembark your flight at Dubai International Airport and proceed to Immigration, where your passport will be stamped with a 30-days visit visa free of charge.
Andorra
Argentina
Australia
Brunei
Canada
Chile
Hong Kong, China
Ireland
Japan
Kazakhstan
Malaysia
Mauritius
Monaco
New Zealand
People's Republic of China
Russian Federation
San Marino
Singapore
Ukraine
United Kingdom
United States of America
Vatican City
(B) If you are a passport holder of the below country or territory, your passport will be stamped with a multiple entry 90-days visit visa that's valid for 6 months from the date of issue, and for a stay of 90 days in total.
Austria
Belgium
Brazil
Bulgaria
Croatia
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Iceland
Italy
Latvia
Liechtenstein
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Norway
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Seychelles
Slovakia
Slovenia
South Korea
Spain
Sweden
Switzerland
Uruguay
In this case, the passenger had a 30 day visa already issued, had left the country and was attempting to return within a period which has been known to be an issue - however, the airline isn't to know any of that, all they know is she was eligible for a visa on entry and therefor could board her.
IF A VISA SAYs ONE ENTRANCE TO DUBAI AND IT IS STAMPED (ie USED), HOW CAN an EK CHECKIN AGENT NOT KNOW what DOCS are required to check, and if they don't it's an admission DOCUMENT CHECKERS should just let the passengers tell you what they need? THAT WOULD COST THE AIRLINE MORE. IN ANY CASE HER VISA, IF SHE HAD A SWEDISH PASSPORT, SHE WOULD HAVE A MULTI ENTRANCE VISA. I guess she was on UK passport? TO CONCLUDE, IF I WERE GOING TO SUE AND GATWICK DIDN"T CHECK MY ENTRANCE CREDENTIALS, I FEEL I'D HAVE A GREAT CASE. HOWEVER THERE IS A STRANGE SCENT TO THIS STORY!!!
Paragraph 2
The second paragraph, and maybe I misunderstand you, for which I apologize. But it seems to support the theory that checkin staff at origin are not responsible for checking pax visas' are valid for destination.
Isn't it either one or the other?
Fine Airline or not fine cuz they don't pay anyway?
Check Visa and validity (good idea) or don't? (because for some reason blaming the airline agent who missed a detail and then all of this resulted, is a weak attack on Checkin Agents who shouldn't have to figure out the visa in said passport is valid for the upcoming flight)
Its not "either one or the other" because they two are different things.
The airline is not responsible to the passenger - it is the passengers responsibility to ensure they are eligible for entry to the country.YES THE PASSENGER's RESPONSIBILITY IS TO GET THE CORRECT DOCS TO ENTER A COUNTRY, BUT IF THEY DON'T IT'S THE PRIORITY OF THE AIRLINE TO FIGURE IT OUT AND DENY boarding"
adambrau wrote:moo wrote:adambrau wrote:
Wait - not sure what you mean?
Paragraph 1
I never mentioned why visas were checked. I assumed everyone knows that it's a bad file to have in your record. Your Airline pays possible fines and possible return plane ticket forms pax. Airlines are required to do document checks which include visas validity, as the airline might be fined by country pax was deemed ineligible to enter. It was some years ago I worked as a customer service rep for Swissair at JFK, and most of the checkin work was done by our partner Delta. Mid 1998's. Allowing a pax to board without DOCS going thru the Timatic was a no no because of the fine. Better to say no if you can't determine and superiors occupied doing more important work, and deny pax. Than have them refused at destination hours later and returned.
Especially a pax who
1) broke a generally unknown/unadvertized rule by accepting a glass of wine (maybe she had more) being offered by Airline cabin staff.
2) Unfortunately when she misbehaved on arrival with visa deemed inadequate. SADLY SHE COULD HAVE GOTTEN A VISA ON ARRIVAL IF SHE HAD A SWEDISH PASSPORT. IT TOOK ME 2 SECONDS TO GOOGLE IT!
"Visa on arrival" is something very difficult to check, especially as short term visas already issued may not be available to the airline in any form, so the airline cannot check every possibility - they have to assume that, based on the passengers eligibility, they would be issued with a visa on arrival.
Its not "either one or the other" because they two are different things.
The airline is not responsible to the passenger - it is the passengers responsibility to ensure they are eligible for entry to the country.
There is no security lapse, as noted above the lack of "docs" is the passengers responsibility, as is the consumption of alcohol on the flight.
it is a security lapse to not check documents properly.
Pellegrine wrote:She got arrested because she argued with immigration and filmed them, not because she drank alcohol.
UK media sure loves stories of Europeans getting locked up in Dubai
flybynight wrote:But tempting or even bating people is not fair either. Not to sound too American, but I'd be tempted to sue Emirates.
adambrau wrote:I would hire the most capable attorneys, who in cases like this only charge a percentage of funds recovered (usually 33%) and go after the airline for lax enforcement of obviously strict laws and boarding her with a used single entry visa. Then the big money comes from emotional distress suffered by both pax. You sue EK in the United Kingdom and this is just the sort of story that will hang about and be repeated on talk boards, blogs, and in the travel community.
FlyHappy wrote:EK cabin crew notate all pax who have consumed alcohol whilst onboard flights bound for Dubai.
Galwayman wrote:Because EK is a global airline not a theocracy .... yawn