Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
MIflyer12 wrote:Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:If a revolution took place among the mainstream US airlines to return to decent levels of legroom, meals, bathrooms you could actually exhale in, free checked luggage etc. (you know, the 1970s), would the norm for a coach ticket price approximate the price of a business class or first class ticket today. I get that some routes are gonna be more competitive than others and no single answer will always be correct. But essentially, is that where we'd be?
MIflyer12 wrote:...Some carriers bundle extra legroom/boarding priority/a checked bag. The size of those extra legroom cabins is a pretty small fraction of now 'regular' coach. That shows you passengers' willingness to pay for more space. Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
FlyHappy wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
I'm willing to pay for bigger lavs, how do I get that ?
Not quite as simple saying there's "more choice" (which is true), so I can just pay for what I want. Plenty of other examples.
Jayafe wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:...Some carriers bundle extra legroom/boarding priority/a checked bag. The size of those extra legroom cabins is a pretty small fraction of now 'regular' coach. That shows you passengers' willingness to pay for more space. Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
Oldest logical fallacy: what that shows is that, for the airline, is profitable to allow the passenger to choose between those (and only those) options. Here there is marketing, PR and profits. Nothing to do with people willingness or ability to choose/decide.
People happy to be treated as muppets, and still clapping. Amazing...
CCGPV wrote:FlyHappy wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
I'm willing to pay for bigger lavs, how do I get that ?
Not quite as simple saying there's "more choice" (which is true), so I can just pay for what I want. Plenty of other examples.
You can't. They're virtually the same size on every airline. Unless you can fly on the A-380 every leg you're going to have to "suffer" for the 4 minutes you're in the lav.
Or you can charter a plane but you're going to have to get into the super-mid-cabin class before you get bathrooms bigger than on a 737.
FlyHappy wrote:CCGPV wrote:FlyHappy wrote:
I'm willing to pay for bigger lavs, how do I get that ?
Not quite as simple saying there's "more choice" (which is true), so I can just pay for what I want. Plenty of other examples.
You can't. They're virtually the same size on every airline. Unless you can fly on the A-380 every leg you're going to have to "suffer" for the 4 minutes you're in the lav.
Or you can charter a plane but you're going to have to get into the super-mid-cabin class before you get bathrooms bigger than on a 737.
you realize I was being quite rhetorical, ya? I'm quite aware of what I can and cannot pay for, that's my point.
though actually have you seen the SpaceFlex lav? It is legitimately smaller than others before it.
and just in case I've detected a wee bit of snark in your use of "suffer" for the 4 minutes - I have small children I regularly fly with; it is difficult, unhygienic and disruptive to other pax in the way I have to assist them. Have you thought about people with disabilities? Prosthetic limbs? Elderly with movement and stability challenges?
slvrblt wrote:Jayafe wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:...Some carriers bundle extra legroom/boarding priority/a checked bag. The size of those extra legroom cabins is a pretty small fraction of now 'regular' coach. That shows you passengers' willingness to pay for more space. Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
Oldest logical fallacy: what that shows is that, for the airline, is profitable to allow the passenger to choose between those (and only those) options. Here there is marketing, PR and profits. Nothing to do with people willingness or ability to choose/decide.
People happy to be treated as muppets, and still clapping. Amazing...
See, there, I have to disagree with you - because I see it and hear it - every single day. People for the most part want cheap prices. Period. Yes, they may bitch about this and that, legroom, whatever. But they won't pay for it. Classic example - three days ago I had a pretty tall guy, probably 6'4 at least. Wanted a seat with better legroom, he was in row thirty-something on an aisle seat. Very tight indeed, for him. He asked if I had any exit row seats available. I told him yes, but they had to be purchased.
'Never mind', he said, I don't want to pay more, I'll stick with what I have. And that scenario is more the norm than anything else. People choose flights on price, price, price.
slvrblt wrote:See, there, I have to disagree with you - because I see it and hear it - every single day. People for the most part want cheap prices. Period. Yes, they may bitch about this and that, legroom, whatever. But they won't pay for it. Classic example - three days ago I had a pretty tall guy, probably 6'4 at least. Wanted a seat with better legroom, he was in row thirty-something on an aisle seat. Very tight indeed, for him. He asked if I had any exit row seats available. I told him yes, but they had to be purchased.
'Never mind', he said, I don't want to pay more, I'll stick with what I have. And that scenario is more the norm than anything else. People choose flights on price, price, price.
Blerg wrote:But is the price everything? I noticed more and more airlines are expanding the premium economy product, both on long-haul and short/medium-haul. I guess there is quite a market for those who would pay a bit more to enjoy their flight.
Antarius wrote:Blerg wrote:But is the price everything? I noticed more and more airlines are expanding the premium economy product, both on long-haul and short/medium-haul. I guess there is quite a market for those who would pay a bit more to enjoy their flight.
There is a market for sure, but Y still makes up the bulk of the passenger count and the majority of pax shop based on price.
Antarius wrote:PE is also a different class of service with different expectations. Within Economy/Y, it is all about price - people aren't willing to pay more for more legroom in Y when another airline is offering the same flight for 40 bucks less. Some are, but not a large enough number to influence change.
That's why Spirit has a horrible rating and still keeps making money.
Shrewfly wrote:What does surprise me though is the expectation that people have from short haul flying. I took a bus today and was crammed in a non-reclining seat, with no toilets or refreshments, limited legroom and no tray table for a journey of an hour and 10 minutes. It didnt bother me, because thats the norm for inter town travel in the UK. People accept that.
But the same people buy an airline ticket for a journey not much longer, and suddenly they expect comfy seats and refreshment? It doesnt make sense. That bus requires one driver and a tank of diesel. An airliner has handling charges, a crew, landing fees etc... and price per mile is far lower!
Or by the same token, Intercity train travel in the UK probably has similar comfort levels to Wizzair and Easyjet. Is just as expensive, you spend just as long on board and few people complain about the seats. They complain about the price!
Jayafe wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:...Some carriers bundle extra legroom/boarding priority/a checked bag. The size of those extra legroom cabins is a pretty small fraction of now 'regular' coach. That shows you passengers' willingness to pay for more space. Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
Oldest logical fallacy: what that shows is that, for the airline, is profitable to allow the passenger to choose between those (and only those) options. Here there is marketing, PR and profits. Nothing to do with people willingness or ability to choose/decide.
People happy to be treated as muppets, and still clapping. Amazing...
CCGPV wrote:Unless you can fly on the A-380 every leg you're going to have to "suffer" for the 4 minutes you're in the lav.
IFlyVeryLittle wrote:If a revolution took place among the mainstream US airlines to return to decent levels of legroom, meals, bathrooms you could actually exhale in, free checked luggage etc. (you know, the 1970s),
777Jet wrote:IFlyVeryLittle wrote:If a revolution took place among the mainstream US airlines to return to decent levels of legroom, meals, bathrooms you could actually exhale in, free checked luggage etc. (you know, the 1970s),
What was the obesity rate in America in the 1970s compared to nowadays? You would need wider seats nowadays to achieve similar comfort levels so each plane of the same type would have fewer seats to begin with.
777Jet wrote:IFlyVeryLittle wrote:If a revolution took place among the mainstream US airlines to return to decent levels of legroom, meals, bathrooms you could actually exhale in, free checked luggage etc. (you know, the 1970s),
What was the obesity rate in America in the 1970s compared to nowadays? You would need wider seats nowadays to achieve similar comfort levels so each plane of the same type would have fewer seats to begin with.
FlyHappy wrote:Shrewfly wrote:What does surprise me though is the expectation that people have from short haul flying. I took a bus today and was crammed in a non-reclining seat, with no toilets or refreshments, limited legroom and no tray table for a journey of an hour and 10 minutes. It didnt bother me, because thats the norm for inter town travel in the UK. People accept that.
But the same people buy an airline ticket for a journey not much longer, and suddenly they expect comfy seats and refreshment? It doesnt make sense. That bus requires one driver and a tank of diesel. An airliner has handling charges, a crew, landing fees etc... and price per mile is far lower!
Or by the same token, Intercity train travel in the UK probably has similar comfort levels to Wizzair and Easyjet. Is just as expensive, you spend just as long on board and few people complain about the seats. They complain about the price!
Its not fair to compare short haul flying with bus or train travel. ground travel does not require hours of upfront, regimented behavior with security, baggage handling, etc. a 1 hour flight isn't nearly the same thing as a 1 hour bus or train ride. The terminals and stations themselves should make that obvious. That's not even to mention simple things like the fact that on ground transport, getting up from your seat and stretching is no big deal. On and on.
BTW, I'll give you a wee bit more latitude about LCC travel in Europe. Nothing in the US really comes close to your Ryanair and Easyjet fares and options. Not that they all still don't suck though
FlyHappy wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
I'm willing to pay for bigger lavs, how do I get that ?
Not quite as simple saying there's "more choice" (which is true), so I can just pay for what I want. Plenty of other examples.
vanguard737 wrote:FlyHappy wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
I'm willing to pay for bigger lavs, how do I get that ?
Not quite as simple saying there's "more choice" (which is true), so I can just pay for what I want. Plenty of other examples.
Of course you are willing! I mean...until Spirit will fly you ORD-MCO for $109 and UA will fly you for $189.
vanguard737 wrote:FlyHappy wrote:MIflyer12 wrote:Welcome to the free market, USA. People get what they're willing to pay for.
I'm willing to pay for bigger lavs, how do I get that ?
Not quite as simple saying there's "more choice" (which is true), so I can just pay for what I want. Plenty of other examples.
Of course you are willing! I mean...until Spirit will fly you ORD-MCO for $109 and UA will fly you for $189.
Super80Fan wrote:vanguard737 wrote:FlyHappy wrote:
I'm willing to pay for bigger lavs, how do I get that ?
Not quite as simple saying there's "more choice" (which is true), so I can just pay for what I want. Plenty of other examples.
Of course you are willing! I mean...until Spirit will fly you ORD-MCO for $109 and UA will fly you for $189.
With Spirit, you can add a checked bag, assigned seat (even exit row), and a snack with alcohol on-board for less than the United flight with a checked bag. I also would get friendlier FA's onboard Spirit as well. Tell me why I should pick the UA flight over the NK flight at those prices?
spacecadet wrote:I mean, other than meals on most routes, Y+ on many carriers these days is basically what economy was 30 years ago. So that's most of the answer. (And I always pay that premium if the option is actually available. I will take a different flight if I have to.)
To fully restore hot meals, I'm not sure how much that would cost. Maybe another $50 per seat? Obviously airlines have determined that it's not worth it even for Y+ on most routes. If the extra cost is $50, most passengers would probably just buy something in the terminal instead. The airlines aren't (totally) dumb, and they have an army of MBA's and accountants figuring out exactly what the cutoff point is where people will pay more for a ticket with a hot (economy class) meal vs. just buying something and bringing it on the plane or going without. I'd guess that's somewhere in the $20-$30 range.
But the bottom line is that it doesn't cost much to mostly restore what coach used to be. There's proof of that in Y+, which typically costs $40-$80 on most routes. When the base ticket is $400, that's a 10-20% difference.
slvrblt wrote:See, there, I have to disagree with you - because I see it and hear it - every single day. People for the most part want cheap prices. Period. Yes, they may bitch about this and that, legroom, whatever. But they won't pay for it. (...) People choose flights on price, price, price.
MartijnNL wrote:slvrblt wrote:See, there, I have to disagree with you - because I see it and hear it - every single day. People for the most part want cheap prices. Period. Yes, they may bitch about this and that, legroom, whatever. But they won't pay for it. (...) People choose flights on price, price, price.
Not everyone is like that. So far this year I took eight KLM-flights. On six occasions I bought Economy Comfort. Well worth the money for four inches more legroom. At Alaska Airlines I payed 25 USD for a seat with more legroom. For me price isn't everything.
MartijnNL wrote:I am always amazed by how far people will go to save a few euro's.