I'm sure this is absurd but can a pax land an aircraft like anything from A320 to B747 during an emergency guided by the ATC? (assuming both the pilots are down). The pax has absolutely zero experience in flying and is a complete novice (doesn't know all the technical stuffs) a.k.a. an everyday Joe. Will the 'everyday Joe' be able to take the role of both the pilots at the same time and land safely?

This has happened several times before, the recent one being in the UK when the pilot of a Cessna deceased due to a heart attack and the pax landed the plane safely with just ATC instructions, but no record of happening in a commercial airliner especially with both the pilots down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-24450534

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_down_aircraft_landing

It's not completely absurd, but there are a lot of variables that would play into how realistic it is. A 172 is a completely different animal from anything 320-sized and up, and it strikes me as really unlikely that a random Joe in 28E could hand fly a landing. If you could talk him into a position and were lucky enough to have a Cat III autoland available as an option, I'd think that would be a very different story.

Note though that Joe 28E would probably need help from a well-trained FA to even operate the radio to communicate, so you'd have a steep learning curve, and probably even more important than the ATC would be someone on the frequency who actually knew the plane, probably a type-rated pilot.

IADCA wrote:

It's not completely absurd, but there are a lot of variables that would play into how realistic it is. A 172 is a completely different animal from anything 320-sized and up, and it strikes me as really unlikely that a random Joe in 28E could hand fly a landing. If you could talk him into a position and were lucky enough to have a Cat III autoland available as an option, I'd think that would be a very different story.

Note though that Joe 28E would probably need help from a well-trained FA to even operate the radio to communicate, so you'd have a steep learning curve, and probably even more important than the ATC would be someone on the frequency who actually knew the plane, probably a type-rated pilot.

I agree.

But won't reinforcement work when the person is flying the plane? The reward is survival and punishment is death. This could, in theory, accelerate his learning and thus can help him land the plane.

Best hope someone in budget economy is only there after buying some PMDG aircraft and a brand new top end PC.

You should probably watch "Con Air" or "Executive Decision" before posting such a question.

studentdrbev wrote:

IADCA wrote:

It's not completely absurd, but there are a lot of variables that would play into how realistic it is. A 172 is a completely different animal from anything 320-sized and up, and it strikes me as really unlikely that a random Joe in 28E could hand fly a landing. If you could talk him into a position and were lucky enough to have a Cat III autoland available as an option, I'd think that would be a very different story.

Note though that Joe 28E would probably need help from a well-trained FA to even operate the radio to communicate, so you'd have a steep learning curve, and probably even more important than the ATC would be someone on the frequency who actually knew the plane, probably a type-rated pilot.

I agree.

But won't reinforcement work when the person is flying the plane? The reward is survival and punishment is death. This could, in theory, accelerate his learning and thus can help him land the plane.

It would certainly give them incentives to try hard, but a lot of people would panic under the circumstances. A literal life-or-death situation is hardly optimal for assimilation of new learning.

You need someone who can press all the right buttons in the right order at the right time...

Type rated pilot on the ground, button Pusher in the fightdeck.

I’m know I’m over simplifying it.... but there you go

For an average passenger with zero knowledge it would be impossible, but on such a large aircraft mostly there's someone on board with at least a bit knowledge. Maybe not a certified pilot, but some experience in Flight Simulator or anything like that. Together with guidance from the ground that person would be their best hope.

There is however one advantage that a 737 has over a C-172. The 737 can make an autoland, the C-172 needs to be landed manually.

PatrickZ80 wrote:

For an average passenger with zero knowledge it would be impossible, but on such a large aircraft mostly there's someone on board with at least a bit knowledge. Maybe not a certified pilot, but some experience in Flight Simulator or anything like that. Together with guidance from the ground that person would be their best hope.

There is however one advantage that a 737 has over a C-172. The 737 can make an autoland, the C-172 needs to be landed manually.

This begs the question about us avgeeks that maybe play a lot of Flight Simulator. As much as it is a game, I wonder if any knowledge acquired through the game could prove beneficial to us as the average passenger on board a flight in this situation?

Captain Joe on YouTube did a video about this a few months ago.

Pretty enlightening...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw6mjVIdbbc

[/quote]This begs the question about us avgeeks that maybe play a lot of Flight Simulator. As much as it is a game, I wonder if any knowledge acquired through the game could prove beneficial to us as the average passenger on board a flight in this situation?[/quote]

Yes. It does help. This guy made an awesome video about almost this exact topic:

https://youtu.be/DfdpuBg8uvI

Wouldn't familiarity alone (with the aircraft, where things are, how the communication goes, etc) put a member of the crew at an advantage in a situation like this?

phljjs wrote:

Captain Joe on YouTube did a video about this a few months ago.

Pretty enlightening...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lw6mjVIdbbc

Mythbusters did it too, they were able to land a plane in a simulator being talked down over the radio.

That being said, I think if I ever found myself in a situation where an untrained passenger was landing the plane, I would need to change my pants once we got on the ground.

evank516 wrote:

PatrickZ80 wrote:

For an average passenger with zero knowledge it would be impossible, but on such a large aircraft mostly there's someone on board with at least a bit knowledge. Maybe not a certified pilot, but some experience in Flight Simulator or anything like that. Together with guidance from the ground that person would be their best hope.

There is however one advantage that a 737 has over a C-172. The 737 can make an autoland, the C-172 needs to be landed manually.

This begs the question about us avgeeks that maybe play a lot of Flight Simulator. As much as it is a game, I wonder if any knowledge acquired through the game could prove beneficial to us as the average passenger on board a flight in this situation?

Hehehe based on my flight simulator experience if I ever get in that situation of having to fly the plane everybody on the flight would be screwed.

(played once, I really suck at landing)

Doesn't every plane have a ocked cockpit nowadays (so if the pilots both went down because of the bad fish, everyne would pretty much be f-ked up?)

studentdrbev wrote:

I'm sure this is absurd but can a pax land an aircraft like anything from A320 to B747 during an emergency guided by the ATC? (assuming both the pilots are down). The pax has absolutely zero experience in flying and is a complete novice (doesn't know all the technical stuffs) a.k.a. an everyday Joe. Will the 'everyday Joe' be able to take the role of both the pilots at the same time and land safely?

This has happened several times before, the recent one being in the UK when the pilot of a Cessna deceased due to a heart attack and the pax landed the plane safely with just ATC instructions, but no record of happening in a commercial airliner especially with both the pilots down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-24450534

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_down_aircraft_landing

Assuming the controller knows how to guide an aircraft. I'd guess someone with expertise would need to be brought on freq.

Adispatcher wrote:

studentdrbev wrote:

I'm sure this is absurd but can a pax land an aircraft like anything from A320 to B747 during an emergency guided by the ATC? (assuming both the pilots are down). The pax has absolutely zero experience in flying and is a complete novice (doesn't know all the technical stuffs) a.k.a. an everyday Joe. Will the 'everyday Joe' be able to take the role of both the pilots at the same time and land safely?

This has happened several times before, the recent one being in the UK when the pilot of a Cessna deceased due to a heart attack and the pax landed the plane safely with just ATC instructions, but no record of happening in a commercial airliner especially with both the pilots down.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-24450534

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk_down_aircraft_landing

Assuming the controller knows how to guide an aircraft. I'd guess someone with expertise would need to be brought on freq.

Most controllers have flight experience to some degree. A few of my coworkers are former regional jet pilots, and a number of others have instrument ratings. Finding someone knowledgeable enough to take on that kind of task in a large facility wouldn't be an issue.

A passenger would never be able to land the plane, for the simple reason that the cabin crew will never let you into the flight deck whilst the aircraft is still flying. A flight attendant will be the one that would have to communicate with ATC and land the airplane. Unless there is an off duty pilot traveling onboard that works for the same company (and their id can be quickly verified) a passenger will never get to do this. Its a security thing

I doubt it'll ever happen in an airliner, as there is always a second pilot there. Assuming they were both incapacitated and you got the tap on the shoulder to help out and you could gain access to the flight deck (again unlikely), that's a hell of a tough task. Even those of you who are very senior pilots at home on your flight simulators are going to have a hell of a hard job. It's a real plane and the consequences are very, very big.

I know what I'm looking at in most aircraft flight decks and have a decent enough understanding of how things work (more so in the old airliners) so I'm not going to panic at least, but I wouldn't want to be in that position.

But the everyday Mr Joe Average who doesn't know anything about reference speeds, crosswinds, flaps and all the rest (even just basic flying principles) is going to have such a steep learning curve that even with an experience person on the radio, it may be too difficult.

jman wrote:

A passenger would never be able to land the plane, for the simple reason that the cabin crew will never let you into the flight deck whilst the aircraft is still flying. A flight attendant will be the one that would have to communicate with ATC and land the airplane. Unless there is an off duty pilot traveling onboard that works for the same company (and their id can be quickly verified) a passenger will never get to do this. Its a security thing

Ok, so the pilots are both down (as per the OP), the aircraft is ultimately going to run out of fuel & crash (Helios flight 522) and we are all going to die, but let's keep the cockpit door security protocol first & foremost in our heads.
Yeah, that seems entirely reasonable.....

On a serious note, I can see a very real need to check out anybody who steps forward, to refuse the 10 year old kid with flight sim experience in favour of a slightly more level-headed adult who has real world experience of controlling an actual solid vehicle, even if it is only a fork-lift truck. And there is nothing to stop the senior F/A from occupying the second seat - in fact I would consider it absolutely essential, even if they have nil cockpit experience, simply an extra pair of eyes & ears.

All joking aside, plenty of younger F/As might not even have a driving licence(*) so even the basic skills of holding a steering wheel whilst looking at instruments could be alien to them.
(*) Obviously I'm not referring to F/As originating from the U.S., who were born with a gun in one hand and a driving license in the other.

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

jman wrote:

A passenger would never be able to land the plane, for the simple reason that the cabin crew will never let you into the flight deck whilst the aircraft is still flying. A flight attendant will be the one that would have to communicate with ATC and land the airplane. Unless there is an off duty pilot traveling onboard that works for the same company (and their id can be quickly verified) a passenger will never get to do this. Its a security thing

Ok, so the pilots are both down (as per the OP), the aircraft is ultimately going to run out of fuel & crash (Helios flight 522) and we are all going to die, but let's keep the cockpit door security protocol first & foremost in our heads.
Yeah, that seems entirely reasonable.....

On a serious note, I can see a very real need to check out anybody who steps forward, to refuse the 10 year old kid with flight sim experience in favour of a slightly more level-headed adult who has real world experience of controlling an actual solid vehicle, even if it is only a fork-lift truck. And there is nothing to stop the senior F/A from occupying the second seat - in fact I would consider it absolutely essential, even if they have nil cockpit experience, simply an extra pair of eyes & ears.

All joking aside, plenty of younger F/As might not even have a driving licence(*) so even the basic skills of holding a steering wheel whilst looking at instruments could be alien to them.
(*) Obviously I'm not referring to F/As originating from the U.S., who were born with a gun in one hand and a driving license in the other.

Well if both the pilots are down, the cabin crew wouldn't notice straight away, and its highly unlikely that they would inform passengers that there is something wrong with the pilots, can you imagine the chaos that would cause and how hard it would be to control everyone? The amount of times that aircraft land with problems and they don't tell the passengers are more than you think.

A senior flight attendant wouldn't occupy the second seat. There are procedures involved for these sort of things, and i can tell you that the incapacitated pilot will still stay in there seat but there will be a flight attendant in the flight deck with them for safety.

jman wrote:

Well if both the pilots are down, the cabin crew wouldn't notice straight away, and its highly unlikely that they would inform passengers that there is something wrong with the pilots, can you imagine the chaos that would cause and how hard it would be to control everyone?

Someone has obviously never seen "Airplane!"

Seriously, though, I watched the Mythbusters do this and I don't see why it couldn't work for anyone. I looked for a video of that episode online but the only version I could find had just their first attempt, in which they had no help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJ8K-hOcRHk

I'm pretty sure that was supposed to show the baseline, and that they had no flying experience or natural inclination to it. But then they get help from the controller, who tells them exactly what buttons to press, knobs to turn, etc. and they both managed to land on the runway and stop. I don't see why anybody couldn't do that if they can just follow instructions. Essentially the controller is flying the plane remotely. The passenger is just acting as their hands.

I would think it would be best - and I'm sure this is how the Mythbusters did it - to use as much automation as possible and minimize hand flying. A modern airliner can be programmed to land automatically at an airport with CAT III equipment, so setting up that programming, reviewing it a bunch of times and then executing it is probably what the passenger would be called on to do, rather than taking the control column or stick in hand and guiding it to the ground themselves.

Of course a flight attendant could do the same thing as well or better than a passenger, but just hypothetically, if ALL the flight and cabin crew were somehow knocked out, I don't see why an intelligent and calm-headed passenger couldn't do it.

spacecadet wrote:

jman wrote:

Well if both the pilots are down, the cabin crew wouldn't notice straight away, and its highly unlikely that they would inform passengers that there is something wrong with the pilots, can you imagine the chaos that would cause and how hard it would be to control everyone?

Someone has obviously never seen "Airplane!"

Of course a flight attendant could do the same thing as well or better than a passenger, but just hypothetically, if ALL the flight and cabin crew were somehow knocked out, I don't see why an intelligent and calm-headed passenger couldn't do it.

No i've not seen the movie, what does it have to do with this discussion?

If all the flight and cabin crew were knocked out, good luck to the passenger to be able to get access to the flight deck by themselves. There is only 2 ways to get into the flight deck from the outside of it, and both ways require either the flight crew or the cabin crew

jman wrote:

No i've not seen the movie, what does it have to do with this discussion?

You asked if we could imagine the chaos if the flight attendants informed the passengers that the pilots were incapacitated. We can, because somebody did and made a really popular funny movie about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAkargy6f6o

While I realize this is the average young a-netter's best circle jerk fantasy ... no a passenger could not land an aircraft unless he was a pilot.

However, a passenger could possibly be advised on how to set the autoflight in such a way that the aircraft could land itself.

That is assuming the most basic of assumptions and that is he was capable to somehow figuring out the radios, then figuring out who to call and how to call. If the odds were beat and he did find himself in the left seat and was talking with someone, who patched into someone in training who was able to "talk" him into manipulating the FCU and FMGC ... who knows.

But that's the kicker. Is someone who plays around with Flight Sim going to know how to set up the FMGC? Will he know how to set a frequency on the radios? Hell ... could he even find the radios? Headset? Speaker? PTT? etc.

A few years ago, I took my nephew into one of our A320 Full Flight Simulators. He is an avid Flight Simmer. While he was able to control the aircraft basically, I still don't think a successful landing was possible without me there to show him how.

longhauler wrote:

That is assuming the most basic of assumptions and that is he was capable to somehow figuring out the radios, then figuring out who to call and how to call.

But that's the kicker. Is someone who plays around with Flight Sim going to know how to set up the FMGC? Will he know how to set a frequency on the radios? Hell ... could he even find the radios? Headset? Speaker? PTT? etc.

You raise a very fair point.
For myself, and presumably a fair number of av.geeks here, I would be looking around the cockpit for any sort of display featuring recognisable numbers in the range 118.1 to 136.95. In fact as I type this I am surrounded by three scanner radios (two airband, one SW), all gathering dust as it happens, but I accept that makes me an exception.

My main fear is that having located a radio, I wouldn't know which particular frequency to select to contact anyone. Calling blindly on the last used frequency might get me nowhere if the a/c has travelled beyond VHF range for that station, and I gather even 121.5 isn't supported like it used to be.

Undoubtedly the FMS has a database of useful frequencies, but here's the Catch-22; I need somebody to teach me how to use the FMS in order to find a frequency to talk to somebody who can teach me how to use the FMS.....

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

My main fear is that having located a radio, I wouldn't know which particular frequency to select to contact anyone. Calling blindly on the last used frequency might get me nowhere if the a/c has travelled beyond VHF range for that station, and I gather even 121.5 isn't supported like it used to be.

I think that would be your best bet. If you were out of range of the last VHF frequency, you might raise someone air to air who could relay to ATC ... or at least direct you where you should be calling.

121.5 is another good guess. Again, if not within VHF hailing to ATC, most aircraft maintain 121.5 open even over remote areas.

I would suggest though, that you know more about radios than the average Flight Sim user.

Now ... if the aircraft had been communicating with CPDLC / ADS-C .... good luck!

SheikhDjibouti wrote:

Undoubtedly the FMS has a database of useful frequencies, but here's the Catch-22; I need somebody to teach me how to use the FMS in order to find a frequency to talk to somebody who can teach me how to use the FMS.....

And that quote above is the best reason why it's not going to end in a very good outcome. While simmers think they know everything about the aircraft, generalization, there is a very big gap in knowledge. Not to pick on the poster, but there is no such thing in the FMS! We are back to the stone age as the frequencies are on the High/Low charts. But you have to know a rough position as to where you are.

I agree 1000% with longhauler but would go even further in that sitting in front of you own PC at home is very different than being at 370 in a strange environment, with all the associated noises and stress. You can't hit the pause button and think about things because every minute you are in the seat you are 8 miles further along. Anyhow, just my thoughts on the entire thread.