Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
neomax wrote:If we backtrack a couple of years before the mergers started, and the trend of consolidation did not emerge, which of the following would've been most likely to have survived on their own:
G4
AA737-823 wrote:neomax wrote:If we backtrack a couple of years before the mergers started, and the trend of consolidation did not emerge, which of the following would've been most likely to have survived on their own:
G4
All of them.
There was never a legitimate need for mergers, from a survival standpoint.
It was a farce to reduce/eliminate competition, and it has worked so beautifully that the arrogant CEO of one of those carriers recently spouted off that his company will "never lose money again."
THAT is when you know that you've created a monster. If a company doesn't even have to be concerned about profit/loss for their foreseeable future, there's a big problem.
Now, carriers are the most profitable they've ever been, all while offering the most cramped cabins they've ever flown (AA 738MAX, for example).
Cue all the people who drank the KoolAid and will argue with me in 3...2...1...
TWA772LR wrote:I'd argue that it actually increased competition. You now have at least 3 carriers with near-identical destination offerings from 95% of US airports with commercial service. Back in the days of the US6, it wasn't uncommon to have 1-2-3 airlines at a tiny airport, with the others left out because it didn't make sense because their closest hub was 1000 miles away.
The LCC's would have eaten their lunch.
TWA772LR wrote:I'd argue that it actually increased competition. You now have at least 3 carriers with near-identical destination offerings from 95% of US airports with commercial service. Back in the days of the US6, it wasn't uncommon to have 1-2-3 airlines at a tiny airport, with the others left out because it didn't make sense because their closest hub was 1000 miles away.
The LCC's would have eaten their lunch.
oldannyboy wrote:As usual with "what ifs" discussions it's always personal opinions, so here's mine, for what it's worth..
I suppose that easily ALL airlines you list could have happily & healthily survived, provided they adapted to the ever changing market dynamics.
This begs the questions for me: why is the US so obsessed with "consolidation"? The term -at least in aviation practical terms- does not even exist in other parts of this great big planet.
neomax wrote:United was and still is today the only US airline that has any sort of real Int'l/TPAC network from the west coast from SFO
neomax wrote:it should be noted that UA has a complete monopoly on the TPAC network from SFO as neither DL nor AA offer a TPAC network anything remotely close to UA even after consolidation.
FSDan wrote:What constitutes a "real" Int'l/TPAC network? Apparently not AA from LAX with LIH/HNL/OGG/KOA/NRT/HND/PEK/PVG/HKG/SYD/AKL, or DL from SEA with LIH/HNL/OGG/KOA/NRT/ICN/PEK/PVG/HKG...
FSDan wrote:It sounds funny to say United has a "complete monopoly" on TPAC routes from SFO when they directly compete with HA and AS/VX to Hawaii, and with JL, KE, OZ, MU, CA, BR, CI, CX, HX, SQ, QF, and soon BF to international destinations.
ehaase wrote:I am glad the airlines merged because now they are financially stable and not in constant threat of bankruptcy as before. The airlines really should be thought of as public utilities.
neomax wrote:FSDan wrote:What constitutes a "real" Int'l/TPAC network? Apparently not AA from LAX with LIH/HNL/OGG/KOA/NRT/HND/PEK/PVG/HKG/SYD/AKL, or DL from SEA with LIH/HNL/OGG/KOA/NRT/ICN/PEK/PVG/HKG...
You can fit DL and AA's entire combined TPAC network inside that of UA, and that doesn't even include the rest of Asia, ie. DEL, BOM, not to mention Guam, Micronesia, etc. Credit where it is due, the latter was inherited from CO. So not only are there more than a few TPAC destinations that only UA serves post-merger, but they are also the only US airline to fly to India after the merger. Nevertheless, my main point was that despite consolidation in the industry where TATL and domestic flying were significantly strengthened, the Int'l network of DL and AA is still skewed very heavily east from the east coast to Europe, where UA practically has a stranglehold on west coast TPAC flying. Consolidation did nothing to increase competition on this front as compared to the US3 on TATL routes as UA has dominated pre-merger and post-merger amongst the US3 across the Pacific.
oldannyboy wrote:This begs the questions for me: why is the US so obsessed with "consolidation"? The term -at least in aviation practical terms- does not even exist in other parts of this great big planet.
neomax wrote:TWA772LR wrote:I'd I can distinctly recall seeing DL, AA, UA, WN, NW, CO, US, and AT at my home airport all the way up until the mergers, and based on this, competition was greater because all 6 were indeed flying to most cities.
neomax wrote:If we backtrack a couple of years before the mergers started, and the trend of consolidation did not emerge, which of the following would've been most likely to have survived on their own:
DL
AA
UA
WN
AS
NW
US
CO
AT
VX
NK
F9
G4
HPRamper wrote:Sure, they would have survived, but several would have been only marginally profitable if at all and we would have seen more bankruptcies. Thinking of it only from consumer point of view seems inherently selfish to me - you want your cheap tickets and comfortable seats but you don't give a crap if the company is financially solvent. I'm not just talking about shareholders making money, that's being able to give employees raises and offer benefits, etc.
OneAA wrote:HPRamper wrote:Sure, they would have survived, but several would have been only marginally profitable if at all and we would have seen more bankruptcies. Thinking of it only from consumer point of view seems inherently selfish to me - you want your cheap tickets and comfortable seats but you don't give a crap if the company is financially solvent. I'm not just talking about shareholders making money, that's being able to give employees raises and offer benefits, etc.
Agree with this quote. All would have survived, but IMO, Northwest would be limping along. They were having some serious money issues prior to the DL merger.