I was wondering what are the biggest short haul markets (number of frequencies ) not currently served by IAG from LGW/LHR/LCY?

CGN - LHR (EW), SEN (BE), STN (EW, FR)
RIX - STN (FR), LTN (W6), LGW (BT)
BEG - LHR (JU), LTN (W6)
recently closed BGO and SVG

IAG from London is mainly about long haul they are not the biggest players in short haul. Likely to have ever smaller market share as time goes on.

Geoff

This is my problem with IAG (specifically BA) at the moment, it's all about Manchester, the big 3 in London and Scotland. We want some love in the Midlands please!

Very few legacy carriers serve CGN (with DUS next door). Only Austrian, Lufthansa, TAP and Turkish serve both CGN and DUS.

I completely disagree, IAG has opened or reinstated a number of routes from LHR since 2012 when additional slots were acquired from bmi and same goes for LCY where it has been growing stronger and stronger every year. We will also be hearing what BA is going to do with Monarch slots at LGW.

This thread is purely about markets already served by other carriers from LON, not wishful thinking from the regions.

BA is sorely missed in BEG, as is IB from BCN/MAD.

Geoff1947 wrote:

IAG from London is mainly about long haul they are not the biggest players in short haul. Likely to have ever smaller market share as time goes on.

Geoff

97 long haul destinations from LHR 3 of which are also flown from LGW
68 short haul destinations from LHR 14 of which are also flown LGW.

46 short haul destinations from LGW 14 of which are also flown from LHR
21 long haul destinations from LGW 3 of which are also flown from LHR

Flown by BACF British Airways CityFlyer

9 short haul destinations from STN 8 of which are also flown from LHR
3 of which are also flown from LGW

32 short haul destinations from LCY 10 of which are also flown from LGW
20 of which are also flown from LHR

1 long haul destination from LCY (New York JFK which is also flown from LHR and LGW) flown by BA main line LGW

British Airways has quite a large European network from both London Heathrow and London Gatwick airports covering all of the major markets but is fairly lacking in several of the long haul markets as in the African continent.

IAG and in particular British Airways have been increasing their market share considerably over the last few years and that will only increase when IAG fully utilise the former Monarch slots at LGW.

lhrsfosyd wrote:

I was wondering what are the biggest short haul markets (number of frequencies ) not currently served by IAG from LGW/LHR/LCY?

CGN - LHR (EW), SEN (BE), STN (EW, FR)
RIX - STN (FR), LTN (W6), LGW (BT)
BEG - LHR (JU), LTN (W6)
recently closed BGO and SVG

If it wasn't for their recent closures I would have suggested both BGO
and SVG although I still can't believe that BOTH destinations were stopped.

Suggestions on my part are

CMM currently flown by Royal Air Maroc from both LGW and LHR
TUN currently flown by Tunisair from both LGW and LHR

The above destinations would be resumptions as both were previously served.

LGW to SCQ currently flown by Vueling but stops on 23 March 2018

As already mentioned a resumption of LHR to BEG currently flown by Air Serbia

To be honest there are not many airports or routes in Europe that are exclusive to just one airline from either LGW or LHR that British Airways have not covered bar from a few that are not worth serving such as LGW to MSQ currently only flown by Belavia.

EIN is a big unserved market for IAG. FR is very succesful with a 3x daily flight EIN-STN, but other than that no airline flies between EIN and LON.

If IAG needed to be in these markets they would be in them. If they aren't it's likley because of

A -Slot availability
B -aircraft availability
C -what slots that do come up are used to help build the longhaul network which is what BA need to keep on top of to stay ahead of AMS/FRA/CDG as hubs.
D-they simply aren't viable.

Eindhoven wrote:

EIN is a big unserved market for IAG. FR is very succesful with a 3x daily flight EIN-STN, but other than that no airline flies between EIN and LON.

I do agree with you regarding Eindhoven from LHR with British Airways, it's one of the larger Dutch airports and it's in a good location and far enough away from both Amsterdam and Rotterdam although both of those are about the same distance away from Eindhoven as are both DUS and LUX which might overlap any possible flight from BA.

Rotterdam seems to be a success with BA from LCY upto five times a day although I would have thought that the route suited LHR where it initially operated from more than LCY due to the connection opportunities.

If BA can successfully fly from London to Rotterdam and also the likes of LHR to Billund I am sure a connection to Eindhoven would work.

Cunard wrote:

Geoff1947 wrote:

IAG from London is mainly about long haul they are not the biggest players in short haul. Likely to have ever smaller market share as time goes on.

Geoff

97 long haul destinations from LHR 3 of which are also flown from LGW
68 short haul destinations from LHR 14 of which are also flown LGW.

46 short haul destinations from LGW 14 of which are also flown from LHR
21 long haul destinations from LGW 3 of which are also flown from LHR

Flown by BACF British Airways CityFlyer

9 short haul destinations from STN 8 of which are also flown from LHR
3 of which are also flown from LGW

32 short haul destinations from LCY 10 of which are also flown from LGW
20 of which are also flown from LHR

1 long haul destination from LCY (New York JFK which is also flown from LHR and LGW) flown by BA main line LGW

British Airways has quite a large European network from both London Heathrow and London Gatwick airports covering all of the major markets but is fairly lacking in several of the long haul markets as in the African continent.

IAG and in particular British Airways have been increasing their market share considerably over the last few years and that will only increase when IAG fully utilise the former Monarch slots at LGW.

I realise that the original post related to just LHR and LGW but the overall market includes the likes of STN and LTN. IAG don’t really compete successfully with the LCCs in the overall London market. They have even started to use Vueling.

Personally I wouldn’t expect to find a BA flight that suits unless I was connecting to a long haul flight as I did in April when travelling via MAD. But I buy my own tickets and prefer to avoid LHR.

I wonder who travels short haul with BA. Is it mainly feed to long haul and corporate contracts ?

Geoff

Geoff no it’s neither feed or contractors combined as this accounts for around 40% - the majority is in fact point to point traffic from and to the London market.

Significant leisure markets and some but just small margin of avios redemptions as well.

Without actual point to point ticket sales serious crimson ink runs through the spread sheets and yes they do compete with the flexible fares carriers in fact directly on many routes at fares similar and in many cases lower than them !

Anetters are infatuated by Hub and Spoke and long haul .

Vast majority of travel is neither and Heathrow in particular is declining in over Hub travel which is 30 ish %.

I was very surprised BA stopped BGO & SVG - I guess the oil industry took quite a hit from the low oil price.

rutankrd wrote:

Geoff no it’s neither feed or contractors combined as this accounts for around 40% - the majority is in fact point to point traffic from and to the London market.

Significant leisure markets and some but just small margin of avios redemptions as well.

Without actual point to point ticket sales serious crimson ink runs through the spread sheets and yes they do compete with the flexible fares carriers in fact directly on many routes at fares similar and in many cases lower than them !

Anetters are infatuated by Hub and Spoke and long haul .

Vast majority of travel is neither and Heathrow in particular is declining in over Hub travel which is 30 ish %.

Thanks, I’m surprised they compete in leisure markets but you learn every day. Can’t think of the last time I heard of any of my friends flying short haul with BA on holiday. I presumed they would be exiting this market apart from LHR and even there I expected more long haul growth. Think they have an image problem as people would automatically look first at FR, U2 etc. but if it is profitable they will no doubt continue with the short haul leisure market.

Geoff

I’d love to see BA reintroduce MAN from LGW or even make MAN/LCY more regular.

Geoff1947 wrote:

Personally I wouldn’t expect to find a BA flight that suits unless I was connecting to a long haul flight as I did in April when travelling via MAD. But I buy my own tickets and prefer to avoid LHR.
I wonder who travels short haul with BA. Is it mainly feed to long haul and corporate contracts ?
Geoff

There's a lot of ad hoc corporate and leisure traffic that flies BA O&D short-haul from LHR. Some of these are deluded people who think that they get a better level of service on BA short-haul than on BE, U2, FR etc. and others are too self-important to demean themselves by getting on U2 and FR. However most pick BA because it is more convenient and often competitively priced. If you live in West London or in Slough, Windsor, Reading, Camberley, Bracknell, High Wycombe, Woking etc. then LHR makes a lot of sense (and there are a lot of companies and business travellers in that area).

I use LHR because I can get there by public transport or uber without needing to park a car, so the added flight ticket cost (not great) is far outweighed by the saving in LTN's or STN's car parking costs (which are very high).

I wanted to find out what are the biggest short haul markets currently not served by BA but served by other airlines from London area. If I wanted a discussion whether BA is competing effectively against LCCs or whether it should fly from the regions, I would ask for it. Please stick to the topic and do not contribute with your emotional wishes or complaints.

Lhrfosyd its much easier to discuss what BA/IB/I2/VY/EI do do !

Fact is that they are active in the vast majority of markets including leisure market flows from their bases in London/Dublin/Madrid/Barecelona/Amsterdam and focus cities in Italy and France.

Under served markets are secondary and third level Eastern European cities and towns with precious little yield and already at peak potential with decline not far away as the EU and UK internal markets mature and movement naturally reduces in the next decade.

I would say biggest unserved:

Ankara
Antalya
Bremen
Dresden
Guernsey
Minsk - def think they need to try this one
Shannon maybe? Obviously the competition is tough

And one or two from: Skope, Ljubljana, Pristina.

Defintely agree with poster on CMN too, thats growing.

Not sure why they are dropping MPL either?

I believe BGO and SVG were culled as they are incredibly expensive airports to operate from.

lhrsfosyd wrote:

I wanted to find out what are the biggest short haul markets currently not served by BA but served by other airlines from London area. If I wanted a discussion whether BA is competing effectively against LCCs or whether it should fly from the regions, I would ask for it. Please stick to the topic and do not contribute with your emotional wishes or complaints.

Apologies if I’ve deflected your thread. My point is that markets are served by a wide range of airlines from more airports than just LHR and LGW. BA and IAG are no longer the dominant player that they used to be and in short haul will shrink in importance as their rivals expand. Don’t expect them to be filling gaps in their coverage.

Geoff

Hope I am not deflecting your thread, but may I suggest that IAG has only a few 100 seaters. It is not good business to fly 143/144 seat A319s around half empty . With smaller Bombardier CS, would IAG fly more low volume routes profitably? My guess is yes, for sure.

Egerton wrote:

Hope I am not deflecting your thread, but may I suggest that IAG has only a few 100 seaters. It is not good business to fly 143/144 seat A319s around half empty . With smaller Bombardier CS, would IAG fly more low volume routes profitably? My guess is yes, for sure.

The C-Series would fit into BA’s BACF fleet very well, and into the fleets of some of IAG’s other airlines too. I believe the current unannounced C-Series order for 31 + 30 options will be from IAG. It will offer some great up gauging opportunities for busier routes that the Embraers currently operate which will free up the Embraers for further regional expansion and for new routes that don’t require a 100+ aircraft.

Egerton wrote:

Hope I am not deflecting your thread, but may I suggest that IAG has only a few 100 seaters. It is not good business to fly 143/144 seat A319s around half empty . With smaller Bombardier CS, would IAG fly more low volume routes profitably? My guess is yes, for sure.

That was Rod Eddington's view many years ago not what Willie Walsh perceives as the future 'size and shape' for British Airways.

Geoff1947 wrote:

Cunard wrote:

Geoff1947 wrote:

IAG from London is mainly about long haul they are not the biggest players in short haul. Likely to have ever smaller market share as time goes on.

Geoff

97 long haul destinations from LHR 3 of which are also flown from LGW
68 short haul destinations from LHR 14 of which are also flown LGW.

46 short haul destinations from LGW 14 of which are also flown from LHR
21 long haul destinations from LGW 3 of which are also flown from LHR

Flown by BACF British Airways CityFlyer

9 short haul destinations from STN 8 of which are also flown from LHR
3 of which are also flown from LGW

32 short haul destinations from LCY 10 of which are also flown from LGW
20 of which are also flown from LHR

1 long haul destination from LCY (New York JFK which is also flown from LHR and LGW) flown by BA main line LGW

British Airways has quite a large European network from both London Heathrow and London Gatwick airports covering all of the major markets but is fairly lacking in several of the long haul markets as in the African continent.

IAG and in particular British Airways have been increasing their market share considerably over the last few years and that will only increase when IAG fully utilise the former Monarch slots at LGW.

I realise that the original post related to just LHR and LGW but the overall market includes the likes of STN and LTN. IAG don’t really compete successfully with the LCCs in the overall London market. They have even started to use Vueling.

Personally I wouldn’t expect to find a BA flight that suits unless I was connecting to a long haul flight as I did in April when travelling via MAD. But I buy my own tickets and prefer to avoid LHR.

I wonder who travels short haul with BA. Is it mainly feed to long haul and corporate contracts ?

Geoff

A lot of people use British Airways short haul including myself 95% of the time, you do realise that British Airways Holidays use the short haul flights and are in fact extremely good value as for example £99 to Barcelona for two nights including a hotel and flights including earning AVIOS, you obviously don't travel much yourself or clearly assume that British Airways are more expensive than the LCC's so avoid using them but I can assure you that is quite the opposite most of the time plus the options are just as good with BA from both LGW and LHR.

Geoff1947 wrote:

Cunard wrote:

Geoff1947 wrote:

IAG from London is mainly about long haul they are not the biggest players in short haul. Likely to have ever smaller market share as time goes on.

Geoff

97 long haul destinations from LHR 3 of which are also flown from LGW
68 short haul destinations from LHR 14 of which are also flown LGW.

46 short haul destinations from LGW 14 of which are also flown from LHR
21 long haul destinations from LGW 3 of which are also flown from LHR

Flown by BACF British Airways CityFlyer

9 short haul destinations from STN 8 of which are also flown from LHR
3 of which are also flown from LGW

32 short haul destinations from LCY 10 of which are also flown from LGW
20 of which are also flown from LHR

1 long haul destination from LCY (New York JFK which is also flown from LHR and LGW) flown by BA main line LGW

British Airways has quite a large European network from both London Heathrow and London Gatwick airports covering all of the major markets but is fairly lacking in several of the long haul markets as in the African continent.

IAG and in particular British Airways have been increasing their market share considerably over the last few years and that will only increase when IAG fully utilise the former Monarch slots at LGW.

I realise that the original post related to just LHR and LGW but the overall market includes the likes of STN and LTN. IAG don’t really compete successfully with the LCCs in the overall London market. They have even started to use Vueling.

Personally I wouldn’t expect to find a BA flight that suits unless I was connecting to a long haul flight as I did in April when travelling via MAD. But I buy my own tickets and prefer to avoid LHR.

I wonder who travels short haul with BA. Is it mainly feed to long haul and corporate contracts ?

Geoff

A lot of people use British Airways short haul including myself 95% of the time, you do realise that British Airways Holidays use the short haul flights and are in fact extremely good value as for example £99 to Barcelona for two nights including a hotel and flights including earning AVIOS, you obviously don't travel much yourself or clearly assume that British Airways are more expensive than the LCC's so avoid using them but I can assure you that is quite the opposite most of the time plus the options are just as good with BA from both LGW and LHR.

LX138 wrote:

I would say biggest unserved:

Ankara
Antalya
Bremen
Dresden
Guernsey
Minsk - def think they need to try this one
Shannon maybe? Obviously the competition is tough

And one or two from: Skope, Ljubljana, Pristina.

Defintely agree with poster on CMN too, thats growing.

Not sure why they are dropping MPL either?

I believe BGO and SVG were culled as they are incredibly expensive airports to operate from.

British Airways operated to both BGO and SVG for many years so I don't necessarily think it was the airport costs that brought the demise of those two destinations. They both depended highly on connections and seeing that the oil industry is in a down turn with those connections having declined hence both routes being cut, the leisure traffic can easily fly with Norwegian from LGW and business travelers are still able to fly SAS from LHR.

All the destinations you have quoted British Airways have previously served except for Minsk which I highly doubt that they would fly to as the demand is not there and any traffic on the route is taken care of by the Belarusian flag carrier Belavia from LGW to MSK.

JoKeR wrote:

BA is sorely missed in BEG, as is IB from BCN/MAD.

I thought IB served BEG in summer, am I right?

I know that the OP stated IAG but the discussion being held was referring to the fact that BA no longer serves BEG and was it a possible future route!

And with reference to your question as in 'am I right'?

I'm sorry to inform you that 'no your not right' on this occasion

IBERIA don't serve BEG at all, Vueling fly seasonally from BCN.

Cunard wrote:

All the destinations you have quoted British Airways have previously served except for Minsk which I highly doubt that they would fly to as the demand is not there and any traffic on the route is taken care of by the Belarusian flag carrier Belavia from LGW to MSK.

[/quote]

Why is there no demand in your view? One can always return to a destination even if it was previously dropped, as demand fluctuates.

They previously flew to LJU?

LX138 wrote:

Cunard wrote:

All the destinations you have quoted British Airways have previously served except for Minsk which I highly doubt that they would fly to as the demand is not there and any traffic on the route is taken care of by the Belarusian flag carrier Belavia from LGW to MSK.

Why is there no demand in your view? One can always return to a destination even if it was previously dropped, as demand fluctuates.

They previously flew to LJU?[/quote]

If you had read my post correctly I said that ALL those destinations listed had previously been flown by British Airways except for Minsk.

All those destinations are possible candidates for resumption except for Minsk which the airline has never served.

There is no demand between London and Minsk that British Airways would cater for and as I previously stated the Belorussian flag carrier Belavia takes care of any traffic between the two cities via their LGW to MSK route.

If you understand Belorussia and it's geo politics your appreciate why it's not a huge destination by any means and British Airways could fly to any of those previously served airports long before they ever considered Minsk.

The issue with BGO and SVG was lack of suitable aircraft. KLM operates multiple daily frequencies to many cities in Norway but they have the advantage of using Embraers. One daily frequency was simply not competitive and there were no slots available for more nor does Heathrow have anything smaller than A319s.

lhrsfosyd wrote:

The issue with BGO and SVG was lack of suitable aircraft. KLM operates multiple daily frequencies to many cities in Norway but they have the advantage of using Embraers. One daily frequency was simply not competitive and there were no slots available for more nor does Heathrow have anything smaller than A319s.

And let's not forget that Norwegian flies from both Bergen and Stavanger to London Gatwick. BA just couldn't compete with that.

I don't think just looking at frequencies is really helpful. While CGN is a large market, BA will loose very little long-haul traffic by not serving it. DUS on the train takes just 20min longer from Cologne central station than CGN, it is really not much different than, say, LGW/LGW. CGN is a decent, albeit low-yielding P2P LON- market, that is what the frequencies are for.

lhrsfosyd wrote:

The issue with BGO and SVG was lack of suitable aircraft. KLM operates multiple daily frequencies to many cities in Norway but they have the advantage of using Embraers. One daily frequency was simply not competitive and there were no slots available for more nor does Heathrow have anything smaller than A319s.

That's a ridiculous suggestion to state that British Airways stopping both BGO and SVG was because of a lack of suitable aircraft having used the same aircraft to both destinations for many years and why do you suggest that British Airways were flying the unsuitable aircraft on those routes when the same aircraft are used on all of their European short haul network, what makes BGO and SVG any different!

British Airways cancelled both Bergen and Stavanger due to the fall of connections at LHR due to the decline in the oil industry along with competing with SAS for any business traffic as well as competition from Norwegian at LGW, both routes don't rely on frequency of flights.

Once the routes become feasible enough to operate again I am sure that we will see British Airways returning to them as they have done with many of their European routes lately and this won't be down to them using lack of suitable aircraft as more than likely it will the same aircraft on the routes as previously.

Cunard wrote:

ALL those destinations listed had previously been flown by British Airways except for Minsk. All those destinations are possible candidates for resumption except for Minsk which the airline has never served. There is no demand between London and Minsk that British Airways would cater for and as I previously stated the Belorussian flag carrier Belavia takes care of any traffic between the two cities via their LGW to MSK route. If you understand Belorussia and it's geo politics your appreciate why it's not a huge destination by any means and British Airways could fly to any of those previously served airports long before they ever considered Minsk.

...agree with this.

The only caveat I would add, is that BA could potentially fly to more destinations in the near-east/ Turkey/ Minsk/ Caucasus/ Balkans/ CIS overnight from LHR; without needing any additional aircraft. I appreciate morning slots for the return arrival are as rare as hens teeth, but I am surprised generally that BA does not do more overnight flying from LHR using its short-haul A3xx fleet, if for no other reason than to relieve overnight parking pressure @ LHR.

I am also hearing that LHR-ABZ is suffering with the downturn in the fortunes of the oil/gas sector. Anyone know if this. is so ?