zrs70
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How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:12 pm

When business class first came out, it was a small section in front of economy and behind first. The sheets for pretty much the same as economy seats.

It evolved, and a little more space without overtime. Now, of course, we see full flat direct Aisle access seats.

With premium getting better and better, how far into the future will we have flatbed economy?
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evank516
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:15 pm

I do not know what country you live in, but most US carriers either have Business OR First Class. Very rare to have First, Business, and Economy on a US Airline, though I think there may be one carrier that has both on select aircraft only.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:04 pm

evank516 wrote:
I do not know what country you live in, but most US carriers either have Business OR First Class. Very rare to have First, Business, and Economy on a US Airline, though I think there may be one carrier that has both on select aircraft only.


Although not a US Airline, KLM still has three classes on their 747s and probably some other types.

However, I'm seeing a change in the opposite direction. Economy can basically be split in premium economy, standard economy and basic economy. The seats are exactly the same, however the service level varies. Premium economy includes a free suitcase, free meal and free seat selection. Standard economy includes a free suitcase and basic economy doesn't include anything.
 
VRHNM
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:35 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
I do not know what country you live in, but most US carriers either have Business OR First Class. Very rare to have First, Business, and Economy on a US Airline, though I think there may be one carrier that has both on select aircraft only.


Although not a US Airline, KLM still has three classes on their 747s and probably some other types.

However, I'm seeing a change in the opposite direction. Economy can basically be split in premium economy, standard economy and basic economy. The seats are exactly the same, however the service level varies. Premium economy includes a free suitcase, free meal and free seat selection. Standard economy includes a free suitcase and basic economy doesn't include anything.


Some airlines carry 4 classes on certain aircraft. Cathay Pacific has First, Business, Premium Economy and Economy on around half of their 77Ws.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:23 am

All right. That's the first time I've heard of seperate seats for regular and premium economy, usually they're in the same seats.
 
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FlyRow
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:08 am

You really have to specify PE.
KLM for example has PE which is nothing more then extra legroom. While for example LH and SG, QF have full on special seats (in 2-4-2 instead of 3-4-3 for exaple).
I think we won't see flat seats in PE, that would remove the use of Bizz, but we will see more product differentation in Economy.

Premium Eco, Eco with extra legroom , Standard Eco, Basic Eco for example.
Then Bizz and Frist.

Meaning a potential 6 classes, makes it clearer right?
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Qatara340
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:16 am

zrs70 wrote:
When business class first came out, it was a small section in front of economy and behind first. The sheets for pretty much the same as economy seats.

It evolved, and a little more space without overtime. Now, of course, we see full flat direct Aisle access seats.

With premium getting better and better, how far into the future will we have flatbed economy?


There is already. Its called British Airways. But, they call the cabin Club World.
لا اله الا الله محمد رسول الله
 
masgniw
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:26 pm

Air New Zeland has SkyCouch in economy -- does that count?

PatrickZ80 wrote:
All right. That's the first time I've heard of seperate seats for regular and premium economy, usually they're in the same seats.


ANZ also does this. They sort of remind me of biz seats on US domestic flights.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:09 am

there will never, ever be a "lie flat" (ie, a bed!) seat labeled as "economy".
Unless, of course, an airline manages to get stacked (bunks) pax past regulators.
Picture it - Tokyo microcapsule hotel meets air travel ;)
 
BENAir01
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:30 pm

Air New Zealand’s Premium Economy And QF’s upcoming premium economy are pretty close to having direct aisle access, and they are very private, so I would say not even a decade until we see some basic flat he’s seats in PE
Note I’m talking about real PE and not Y+ like some answerers think this thread is about.
BTW what D7 calls Premium Economy is flat bed. Does that count?
Why is flying so expensive? And why is flying well so much more?
 
aeromoe
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:04 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
there will never, ever be a "lie flat" (ie, a bed!) seat labeled as "economy".
Unless, of course, an airline manages to get stacked (bunks) pax past regulators.
Picture it - Tokyo microcapsule hotel meets air travel ;)


Glad someone finally decided to address the OPs question...well you and FlyRow addressed it.
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FlyHappy
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:33 pm

BENAir01 wrote:
Air New Zealand’s Premium Economy And QF’s upcoming premium economy are pretty close to having direct aisle access, and they are very private, so I would say not even a decade until we see some basic flat he’s seats in PE
Note I’m talking about real PE and not Y+ like some answerers think this thread is about.
BTW what D7 calls Premium Economy is flat bed. Does that count?



I find no reference to the use of "economy" for D7's flat bed seats. They seem to call it "Premium Flatbed". Considering that there are only 2 rows, at the front of the plane, 6 abreast in an otherwise 9 abreast A330 - I don't get why they shy away from calling it "Business" or even "First". Its certainly a nice offering, especially at the occasionally available 2x cost of their cattle class (though usually 4x +).

They should consider a name change!
 
pezzy669
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:24 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
All right. That's the first time I've heard of seperate seats for regular and premium economy, usually they're in the same seats.


DL's new long haul premium economy product will have different seats that at least to the naked eye in promo photos has a leg rest, not sure what other differences there may be. Some Euro and Asian carriers I believe have larger seats in E+.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:31 am

pezzy669 wrote:
PatrickZ80 wrote:
All right. That's the first time I've heard of seperate seats for regular and premium economy, usually they're in the same seats.


DL's new long haul premium economy product will have different seats that at least to the naked eye in promo photos has a leg rest, not sure what other differences there may be. Some Euro and Asian carriers I believe have larger seats in E+.


that's exactly part of the confusion: Premium Economy does not equal Economy+ (as you've abbreviated). Premium Economy has solely been a concept of non-US carriers (up to now), different/wider seats, whereas as Economy+ (and variations of that name) has simply meant greater pitch on US (particularly domestic) carriers.
 
MANMatthew
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:59 am

I love the first reply.

'How dare you talk about airlines and countries that aren't America!' Ha.

There are many, many carriers currently operating 4 classes!

I digress. In answer to OP, never lie flats in PE.

First
Business
PE (cheap fizzy wine, leg room, extra case)
Economy
Council House R Us (a seat and some 3-week-old crisps off the floor under the seat).
 
george77300
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:56 am

Qatara340 wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
When business class first came out, it was a small section in front of economy and behind first. The sheets for pretty much the same as economy seats.

It evolved, and a little more space without overtime. Now, of course, we see full flat direct Aisle access seats.

With premium getting better and better, how far into the future will we have flatbed economy?


There is already. Its called British Airways. But, they call the cabin Club World.


Absolutely. BA has been flying flat bed premium Economy for years in a 2-4-2 configuration. (It’s just called Club World.)
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CyBeRino
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:54 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
evank516 wrote:
I do not know what country you live in, but most US carriers either have Business OR First Class. Very rare to have First, Business, and Economy on a US Airline, though I think there may be one carrier that has both on select aircraft only.


Although not a US Airline, KLM still has three classes on their 747s and probably some other types.


No, they don't. They have C and Y. And then they offer extra legroom seats in Y.

However, I'm seeing a change in the opposite direction. Economy can basically be split in premium economy, standard economy and basic economy. The seats are exactly the same, however the service level varies. Premium economy includes a free suitcase, free meal and free seat selection. Standard economy includes a free suitcase and basic economy doesn't include anything.


Premium Economy (W) is not the same as economy + suitcase + meal. You are describing different fare options, not a different cabin class.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 5:29 am

george77300 wrote:
Qatara340 wrote:
zrs70 wrote:
When business class first came out, it was a small section in front of economy and behind first. The sheets for pretty much the same as economy seats.

It evolved, and a little more space without overtime. Now, of course, we see full flat direct Aisle access seats.

With premium getting better and better, how far into the future will we have flatbed economy?


There is already. Its called British Airways. But, they call the cabin Club World.


Absolutely. BA has been flying flat bed premium Economy for years in a 2-4-2 configuration. (It’s just called Club World.)


Club World is Business Class, pure and simple. In BA's own words: "This is our business class, available on long haul flights."
World Traveler plus is the Premium Economy offering... not lie flat.
 
george77300
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:31 am

FlyHappy wrote:
george77300 wrote:
Qatara340 wrote:

There is already. Its called British Airways. But, they call the cabin Club World.


Absolutely. BA has been flying flat bed premium Economy for years in a 2-4-2 configuration. (It’s just called Club World.)


Club World is Business Class, pure and simple. In BA's own words: "This is our business class, available on long haul flights."
World Traveler plus is the Premium Economy offering... not lie flat.


I don’t think you quite got the joke. I’m well aware Ba has Club World and World Traveller Plus. It’s just a joke about how narrow seat is 2-4-2 (in business on 777) and what a terrible product that it is effectively a good premium economy and their first 1-2-1 reverse herringbone is like a good business class.
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FlyHappy
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:22 pm

george77300 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
george77300 wrote:

Absolutely. BA has been flying flat bed premium Economy for years in a 2-4-2 configuration. (It’s just called Club World.)


Club World is Business Class, pure and simple. In BA's own words: "This is our business class, available on long haul flights."
World Traveler plus is the Premium Economy offering... not lie flat.


I don’t think you quite got the joke. I’m well aware Ba has Club World and World Traveller Plus. It’s just a joke about how narrow seat is 2-4-2 (in business on 777) and what a terrible product that it is effectively a good premium economy and their first 1-2-1 reverse herringbone is like a good business class.


Indeed, I did miss the joke.
Its a sad comment that I would be thrilled to be in 2 x 4 x 2 lie-flat - is it really that bad, it looks staggered to me ; doesn't that give it more effective width?
 
BENAir01
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:59 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
george77300 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

Club World is Business Class, pure and simple. In BA's own words: "This is our business class, available on long haul flights."
World Traveler plus is the Premium Economy offering... not lie flat.


I don’t think you quite got the joke. I’m well aware Ba has Club World and World Traveller Plus. It’s just a joke about how narrow seat is 2-4-2 (in business on 777) and what a terrible product that it is effectively a good premium economy and their first 1-2-1 reverse herringbone is like a good business class.


Indeed, I did miss the joke.
Its a sad comment that I would be thrilled to be in 2 x 4 x 2 lie-flat - is it really that bad, it looks staggered to me ; doesn't that give it more effective width?

I mean compared to economy and how 90% of the 1% who can fly do it, it’s beilliant, and yes it is better staggered then of the seats were next to each other, however for the price and other competing business class products, it is not a good product.
Why is flying so expensive? And why is flying well so much more?
 
george77300
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:39 am

FlyHappy wrote:
george77300 wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

Club World is Business Class, pure and simple. In BA's own words: "This is our business class, available on long haul flights."
World Traveler plus is the Premium Economy offering... not lie flat.


I don’t think you quite got the joke. I’m well aware Ba has Club World and World Traveller Plus. It’s just a joke about how narrow seat is 2-4-2 (in business on 777) and what a terrible product that it is effectively a good premium economy and their first 1-2-1 reverse herringbone is like a good business class.


Indeed, I did miss the joke.
Its a sad comment that I would be thrilled to be in 2 x 4 x 2 lie-flat - is it really that bad, it looks staggered to me ; doesn't that give it more effective width?


The seat width is pretty much premium Economy (2-4-2 not really staggered) but you do get lie flat but half the bed is a foldable foot rest. The problem is it’s priced as a premium business class. The service is great on BA but the hard product is quite dreadful.
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anstar
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Re: How long until we see flat seat in premium Econ?

Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:19 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:

Although not a US Airline, KLM still has three classes on their 747s and probably some other types.



KLM do not have 3 classes of service. As noted above they have Business & Economy. In the Economy (comfort) cabin they have a few rows with some extra centimetres of leg room. The fare sold is still economy, you just buy extra legroom seats. The seats & service is still the same.

Premium Economy on the other hand with carriers such as VS, QF, BA, SQ etc is another cabin with different seats, different service, different FF earnings etc.
As an example VS offer Business Class, Premium Economy and Economy and within their economy cabin they offer the equivalent of KLM's comfort seats... but VS just call it extra leg room... so I wouldn't say VS offer a 4 class of service.

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