flyenthu
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Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:31 pm

Hi A. Netters,

This is a funny situation. I'm on DL 4106 traveling from JFK to YUL on CRJ. We were taxing to the runway when the pilot announced that the plane is too heavy for landing. Apparently the baggage weight caused this- they took on more than they should have , luggage-wise.

Now, we are in a holding area close to the runway with engines revved up to burn fuel. The pilot said it would take about 20 mins. Kind of strange!

I guess the CRJs are sensitive! :D

Flyenthu
 
MO11
Posts: 186
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:07 pm

Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:01 pm

flyenthu wrote:
Hi A. Netters,

This is a funny situation. I'm on DL 4106 traveling from JFK to YUL on CRJ. We were taxing to the runway when the pilot announced that the plane is too heavy for landing. Apparently the baggage weight caused this- they took on more than they should have , luggage-wise.

Now, we are in a holding area close to the runway with engines revved up to burn fuel. The pilot said it would take about 20 mins. Kind of strange!

I guess the CRJs are sensitive! :D

Flyenthu


Could happen to any airplane. The difference between Maximum Takeoff Weight and Maximum Landing Weight could be several hours worth of fuel. I've seen 757s depart, then have to return for a non-emergency technical reason, and have to hold for a few hours before landing.
 
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CFM565A1
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Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:19 pm

Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:21 pm

flyenthu wrote:
Hi A. Netters,

This is a funny situation. I'm on DL 4106 traveling from JFK to YUL on CRJ. We were taxing to the runway when the pilot announced that the plane is too heavy for landing. Apparently the baggage weight caused this- they took on more than they should have , luggage-wise.

Now, we are in a holding area close to the runway with engines revved up to burn fuel. The pilot said it would take about 20 mins. Kind of strange!

I guess the CRJs are sensitive! :D

Flyenthu


I used to think along the same lines as you until I left my little bubble of flying C-172s which have only AN MTOW. Once I started on planes that had a Max LDG weight, I soon tuned into how common it is that that kind of stuff happens. Sometimes if load is a little off from the initial #'s it's really easy for that to happen.
C172, P2006T, PA-34-200T, ERJ-145, CRJ-100/200, DH8D, CRJ-700/705/900, E-175/190, A319/320/321, 737-200/300/400/600/700/800/900ER, MD-82/83, 757-200, 767-300.
 
sdf880
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:39 pm

YUL has rain in the forecast and it could be you were OK dry runway weights but over on the wet runway numbers?
 
Varsity1
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:46 pm

Is it a 200? Often what happens on the 200 is this:

The flight is planned with the expected manifest. A last minute jumpseater joins the crew up front, this requires up to 600lbs of sand ballast to be added to the rear cargo hold. That 200lbs person + the 600lbs in sand ballast takes the flight over MLW. Sometimes it can be fixed by stopping your climb at a lower altitude. Other times it cannot.
 
Alias1024
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:42 pm

Not uncommon for a CRJ-200 to be overweight.

The forecast for YUL has temporary conditions of one mile visibility in heavy rain and possibly hail. They would be carrying alternate fuel (YOW? BTV?), and if planned well, as much contingency fuel as possible so that they could hold for a while if they need to let a storm pass through.

All it takes is a few extra gate checked bags or the fueler putting on a couple hundred more than requested and you end up overweight. Instead of removing passengers or bags you just burn down to your maximum takeoff weight. As a CRJ captain I left the gate many times watching my takeoff weight and knowing I might need to burn fuel to make that weight.

It's quicker to burn it than request a truck to defuel, so you don't ask for the truck if it is only a few hundred pounds.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
AA737-823
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:46 pm

This is also fairly common on the competing ERJ aircraft.
Especially, as I understand, the original versions, non-ER/LR/XR.
 
11725Flyer
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:57 pm

You'd think they would know that before they left the gate. Or, am I missing something?
 
Alias1024
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:01 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
You'd think they would know that before they left the gate. Or, am I missing something?

They probably did and chose to burn the fuel instead of removing passengers or bags.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
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24Whiskey
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:07 pm

11725Flyer wrote:
You'd think they would know that before they left the gate. Or, am I missing something?


Performance data is run once they get final passenger and cargo count. This usually happens at door closure at the gate. Dispatch will plan based on booked passengers at the time and creates a fuel order off of that. Sometimes when there's last minute bookings or lots of non-revs you can end up with this issue.

As stated above the -200 is more susceptible to this but this will happen on the -900 on the longer flights (DTW/MSP/NYC to Texas) with weather that forces a more distant alternate which requires more reserve fuel.

The crew can resolve it in two ways: Either burn gas on the taxiway and take everybody or reopen the door and kick passengers off (usually means commuting pilots/FA's). We prefer to do the former.
 
BENAir01
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:12 pm

I know someone who has had this happen multiple times at HPN heading to ORD - always in bad weather.
Why is flying so expensive? And why is flying well so much more?
 
11725Flyer
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 10:34 pm

Thanks for the explanations to my question. I appreciate it!
 
Tailwinds
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:34 pm

The CRJ2 can land at 47.0 and has an empty weight of about 31.8, giving it about 15.2 of payload ability. A full load of people will be around 10.5-11.0, which leaves you under 4000 pounds for fuel, which isn't much if you need an alternate. The 200 was hit particularly hard when the FAA increased the average passenger weights something like 15 years ago. IIRC passengers gained 20lbs and baggage 5lbs. On the CRJ2 the baggage is used to counterbalance passengers. 10 rows sit forward of the wing, 1 on it, and only 1.5 behind and all the luggage behind. With those weight changes the plane gained over 1000 lbs (on a MTOW of only 53k) and most of it was forward of the wing. You can maintain balance with 1 bag per person all the way though about 47 passengers, leaving the empty seats forward, but beyond that it takes a *lot* of extra weight to counterbalance, perhaps 600 lbs over the 1 bag/person default.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:45 pm

It may also have been tankering some fuel for whatever reason. Often planes will tanker some to speed up turns at the destination.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:01 am

Channex757 wrote:
It may also have been tankering some fuel for whatever reason. Often planes will tanker some to speed up turns at the destination.


CRJ200s, unless empty, can't tanker fuel, there just isn't enough landing weight capability to do it. In this case, it was probably a combination of extra last minute passengers/baggage/cargo, shorter route requiring less fuel burn, or perhaps being overfueled (which is too common). All of the above would lead you to burn fuel at the end of the runway, not really a big deal. Also an outside chance that there was some sort of wet runway issue limiting the landing weight down below 47,000, but unlikely.
From my cold, dead hands
 
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thefactorypilot
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:08 am

DiamondFlyer wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
It may also have been tankering some fuel for whatever reason. Often planes will tanker some to speed up turns at the destination.


CRJ200s, unless empty, can't tanker fuel, there just isn't enough landing weight capability to do it. In this case, it was probably a combination of extra last minute passengers/baggage/cargo, shorter route requiring less fuel burn, or perhaps being overfueled (which is too common). All of the above would lead you to burn fuel at the end of the runway, not really a big deal. Also an outside chance that there was some sort of wet runway issue limiting the landing weight down below 47,000, but unlikely.

It was almost no doubt the alternate fuel... it was probably my airline. A re-route would also cause this after the plane has taxi'd out.
 
AR385
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:21 am

On one of my FRA-EZE flights, on a 744, we had to return to the platform. The Captain said over the PA it was due to the fact we were overweight and had to unload "cargo." We had already started taxiing. As the FA later told me, F was full, J had 1 empty seat and Y had 8 empty seats. I don´t understand how they didn´t figure out the issue before leaving the gate but I guess it happens.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:03 am

Question for anyone:

If they calculated that his plane would have been over MLW at the destination, wouldn't it take less additional total time to burn off the extra fuel in a hold in flight at cruise-thrust setting, compared to sitting on the ground with the engines burning a little faster than ground-idle?

From his example, if it took them 20 minutes on the ground to run down the additional fuel, wouldn't it waste significantly less time just doing it in the air around a couple hold loops?
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
Tailwinds
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:11 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Question for anyone:

If they calculated that his plane would have been over MLW at the destination, wouldn't it take less additional total time to burn off the extra fuel in a hold in flight at cruise-thrust setting, compared to sitting on the ground with the engines burning a little faster than ground-idle?

From his example, if it took them 20 minutes on the ground to run down the additional fuel, wouldn't it waste significantly less time just doing it in the air around a couple hold loops?


Practically, yes. Legally, no. MTOW = MLW + Planned Burn. There's no option for "we promise to burn a little extra before we land".
 
Woodreau
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:14 am

A lot of times in the 121 world you have to meet all the requirements before taking off.

You can't takeoff knowing that based on your planned fuel burn that you will arrive overweight, even though you won't accept short cuts. Leave the apu running, cruise at a lower altitude. Configure early - everything to increase the fuel burn in flight knowing that you will exceed the planned fuel burn.

Another example you're not allow to takeoff knowing the weather at the destination is below your minimums to conduct an instrument approach.

After you take off, things get a lot easier to leave to the crews discretion to do whatever it takes to remain within limitations. Not just landing weight but Duty time flight time landing distance, weather at arrival, etc.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:38 pm

Tailwinds wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Question for anyone:

If they calculated that his plane would have been over MLW at the destination, wouldn't it take less additional total time to burn off the extra fuel in a hold in flight at cruise-thrust setting, compared to sitting on the ground with the engines burning a little faster than ground-idle?

From his example, if it took them 20 minutes on the ground to run down the additional fuel, wouldn't it waste significantly less time just doing it in the air around a couple hold loops?


Practically, yes. Legally, no. MTOW = MLW + Planned Burn. There's no option for "we promise to burn a little extra before we land".


Yes, but... I can recall more than one situation where we asked Dispatch to rerun the flight plan at a lower altitude, thus a higher fuel burn, to make the fuel burn higher.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
Q
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Re: Plane too heavy! DL 4106

Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:29 am

Gosh! Why the earth revved up in ground pollution in the city? Why can't pilot flying S route than direct straight route? It doesn't make a sense!

Q

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