Not sure this is the right forum but thought there might be some suggestions from people out there.

We have tasked to find a way, at lowest cost, to move approximately 250, maybe more, Americans to Australia for a conference. The catch is the conference is at start of January, right in the middle of peak season for air travel.

Trying to work out if cheaper to use existing commercial services or charter flights.

The conference is for a week, but they all want to stay in OZ for approximately 2 weeks.

If flying commercial, the brief is, cost is important, but they don't want to fly the long way via Asia, so either nonstop or via Hawaii, New Zealand, Fiji or Tahiti seem to be the only options.

If they go commercial, they can fly on different airlines over a couple of days, in either direction. If they fly on a charter flight, obviously, they'd all fly together.

Thinking 2 return charters might be cheaper, especially if able to offload the return legs ie. OZ/USA early January & USA/OZ few weeks later, to a tour operator in OZ, who might be sending groups to USA in busy Australian school holidays.

Anyone with experience of this sort of thing with any suggestions?

What charter operators still exist in USA ? Atlas, Omni, any others. World & North American folded a few years back, I think.

Tried contacting 2 commercial airlines at Australian end & one said, no aircraft availability due to time of year & other said not interested in charters, effectively competing with self. As a result of second response, haven't contacted any U.S. scheduled airlines like United, Delta or America, who already fly to OZ.

Andrew

I would say it would cost a ridiculous amount of money to charter a widebody plane and fly it from the USA to Australia.

I'm sure you could easily accomodate 250 passengers across QF, UA, DL, AA, NZ and HA over a few days.

You're looking at roughly 35K an hour to charter an aircraft big enough to hold 250 people, and with the legs to cross the pacific. Total travel time will be around 30 hours, for a total of around 1 million - give or take.

An economy return would be around 2,5K, for a total of 625K.

Good luck getting the charter past your financial controller.

PS
For a charter you don't necessarily need a US or Aus based carrier.

Airlines probably will give some group travel discounts

You sound like you're well in the know re airlines and options, but assuming you are USA-based and for what it's worth...

Early January is right in the middle of the main summer school / university holidays in Australia. Peak time indeed. Demand / fares drop off in the last week or two of the month.

Trans-Pacific commercial flights are relatively inexpensive now, given so much competition. You might find a Sydney arrival into Australia less costly / more doable given the greater number of airlines flying direct to there (Delta, American, Hawaiian, Virgin Australia and of course Qantas.)

The Air New Zealand hub at Auckland is well utilised by Australians heading to North and South America - Air NZ have connections to the major Australian cities, as well as some of the smaller ones.

Back when TPAC fares were expensive due to lack of competition, going via Fiji was a cost-effective option. Have not priced Fijian (formerly Air Pacific) in quite some time though. Fiji is a lovely place for a stopover with many mainland and island resorts in the Nadi area, but be aware January is monsoon season in the south west Pacific.

There is a LCC flying between Hawaii and Oz - Jetstar. Also Qantas and Hawaiian.

And I believe Air Tahiti Nui no longer fly direct to Australia, but code share with Qantas from Auckland. So that option would mean two-stopping across the Pacific.

I am curious. Do you work in a company corporate travel department?

It's the sort of thing qf could upguage a 744 service to A380 to get the pax over.

zeke wrote:

It's the sort of thing qf could upguage a 744 service to A380 to get the pax over.

That assumes QF has a spare A380 or are willing to downgauge another route. Besides that they would also need to factor in the cost of changing crew roosters in order to operate the extra A380 sector. Dont think it is that easy for them to just change one flight.

I'd say get in touch with a broker like Chapman Freeborn, Air Charter Services etc to see how they can help. Often far easier than doing it yourself.

If you decide to go the commercial route and don't yet have a corporate travel agent then get in touch with one. It would be virtually impossible to book 250 people yourself online as you are limited to 9 pax per PNR and you might start booking people and then run out of inventory so you are stuck.

USAOZ wrote:

Thinking 2 return charters might be cheaper, especially if able to offload the return legs ie. OZ/USA early January & USA/OZ few weeks later, to a tour operator in OZ, who might be sending groups to USA in busy Australian school holidays.

A North American carrier is likely to have capacity and crew available as January is their low season. I recall UA had a couple of extra flights between LAX or SFO and SYD a few years back for a conference. And they could more easily sell the reverse direction.

Also, Air Tahiti Nui have spare A340-300 capacity and often do charters.

PA515

You should contact passenger sales from the various airlines that fly between your point of origin and OZ. Several University football teams regularly buy tickets (I assume at a discounted block price) for away games. University of Hawaii is one such University Team that often buys seats on live flights.

77H

B747forever wrote:

That assumes QF has a spare A380 or are willing to downgauge another route. Besides that they would also need to factor in the cost of changing crew roosters in order to operate the extra A380 sector. Dont think it is that easy for them to just change one flight.

Of course they would, they do that already for large sporting events. They even take aircraft out of regular service for their other charters like Antarctic and Captain's Choice tours.

As for crew, the aircraft would be flying somewhere anyway that day.

zeke wrote:

B747forever wrote:

That assumes QF has a spare A380 or are willing to downgauge another route. Besides that they would also need to factor in the cost of changing crew roosters in order to operate the extra A380 sector. Dont think it is that easy for them to just change one flight.

Of course they would, they do that already for large sporting events. They even take aircraft out of regular service for their other charters like Antarctic and Captain's Choice tours.

As for crew, the aircraft would be flying somewhere anyway that day.

Those charters are planned way in advanced, the Antarctica charters are currently being sold for 2018, 2018 and 2019.

Looking at the fleet usage for the first week of January for both the A380 and 744 you have

A388 - 12 frames fully utilised
QF1/2 SYD-DXB-LHR daily
QF9/10 MEL-DXB-LHR daily
QF11/12 SYD-LAX 6 weekly
QF7/8 SYD-DFW daily
QF93/94 MEL-LAX daily
The flights mentioned above operate year round on 11 frames
On top of this QF127/128 SYD-HKG daily is A388 (upgraded by 744)

744 - 10 frames utilised every day except Monday and Wednesday where 9 frames are used
QF11/12 SYD-LAX weekly
QF17/18 SYD-LAX 3 weekly (this flight only operates in Dec/Feb)
QF73/74 SYD-SFO daily (up from 6 weekly)
QF63/64 SYD-JNB daily (up from 6 weekly)
QF27/28 SYD-SCL 5 weekly (up from 4 weekly)
QF25/26 SYD-HND daily
QF75/76 SYD-YVR 3 weekly (operates seasonally)
QF15/16/11/12 BNE-LAX-JFK daily

Antarctica charter will use the 10th frame on the Monday

If the charter was required in February or March QF would have an aircraft available

[twoid][/twoid]

ben175 wrote:

I would say it would cost a ridiculous amount of money to charter a widebody plane and fly it from the USA to Australia.

I'm sure you could easily accomodate 250 passengers across QF, UA, DL, AA, NZ and HA over a few days.

it seems now we have more people to accommodate. Now 300+ & apparently their preference is to all fly together.

B777LRF wrote:

You're looking at roughly 35K an hour to charter an aircraft big enough to hold 250 people, and with the legs to cross the pacific. Total travel time will be around 30 hours, for a total of around 1 million - give or take.

An economy return would be around 2,5K, for a total of 625K.

Good luck getting the charter past your financial controller.

PS
For a charter you don't necessarily need a US or Aus based carrier.

Interesting. Realise 1 million figure is very rough, but what size aircraft would you have based that on ? Ask, as just been told we now need to accommodate 300+ persons & they would prefer to fly together. Think there are some 474 seat 747400's & 380 seat 777's available for charter ex USA.

boeing777200lr wrote:

Airlines probably will give some group travel discounts

on the contrary, when flights are already heavily booked, the more seats you buy the more they cost each. Not buying widgets.

USAOZ wrote:

boeing777200lr wrote:

Airlines probably will give some group travel discounts

on the contrary, when flights are already heavily booked, the more seats you buy the more they cost each. Not buying widgets.

300 people non-stop from the US to AUS = a 77W or 747. Add half a million on top, and try contacting Air Atlanta Icelandic - they have a -400 which may be available.

DL offer some great group rates worth giving them a call.

https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US ... ravel.html

Or look at some of the airlines we see providing quick lift to an airline with long term maintenance issues on one airframe. Airlines like Omni International which assisted Westjet with their 767 introduction.

Looking at their website, they seem well equipped to satisfy your needs for a charter type operation.

qf789 wrote:

zeke wrote:

B747forever wrote:

That assumes QF has a spare A380 or are willing to downgauge another route. Besides that they would also need to factor in the cost of changing crew roosters in order to operate the extra A380 sector. Dont think it is that easy for them to just change one flight.

Of course they would, they do that already for large sporting events. They even take aircraft out of regular service for their other charters like Antarctic and Captain's Choice tours.

As for crew, the aircraft would be flying somewhere anyway that day.

Those charters are planned way in advanced, the Antarctica charters are currently being sold for 2018, 2018 and 2019.

Looking at the fleet usage for the first week of January for both the A380 and 744 you have

A388 - 12 frames fully utilised
QF1/2 SYD-DXB-LHR daily
QF9/10 MEL-DXB-LHR daily
QF11/12 SYD-LAX 6 weekly
QF7/8 SYD-DFW daily
QF93/94 MEL-LAX daily
The flights mentioned above operate year round on 11 frames
On top of this QF127/128 SYD-HKG daily is A388 (upgraded by 744)

744 - 10 frames utilised every day except Monday and Wednesday where 9 frames are used
QF11/12 SYD-LAX weekly
QF17/18 SYD-LAX 3 weekly (this flight only operates in Dec/Feb)
QF73/74 SYD-SFO daily (up from 6 weekly)
QF63/64 SYD-JNB daily (up from 6 weekly)
QF27/28 SYD-SCL 5 weekly (up from 4 weekly)
QF25/26 SYD-HND daily
QF75/76 SYD-YVR 3 weekly (operates seasonally)
QF15/16/11/12 BNE-LAX-JFK daily

Antarctica charter will use the 10th frame on the Monday

If the charter was required in February or March QF would have an aircraft available

This does happen a lot at my airline. Not necessarily with an A380 as their rotation cycle is a little tight, but swapping aircraft around for large group bookings and revenue management overbooking is common.

OA260 wrote:

DL offer some great group rates worth giving them a call.

https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US ... ravel.html

group rates are higher than buying individual seats online, especially at that time of the year.

Is there a particular reason you have to be in charge of organizing this travel for all these people? I am assuming they are all mature adults, and are capable of booking their own flights. It seems, from what you have said, that they all want to stay over and I am sure each person or couple will have their own preferences for which areas they want to visit. Perhaps each individual or couple should make their own arrangements. While I realize this is not really an answer to the question you asked, it is certainly a solution to an otherwise daunting and extremely difficult task with such a large group. If the group was 20 or 30 I could understand you trying to take the responsibility.

USAOZ wrote:

OA260 wrote:

DL offer some great group rates worth giving them a call.

https://www.delta.com/content/www/en_US ... ravel.html

group rates are higher than buying individual seats online, especially at that time of the year.

Mates of mine recently booked 30 of them going away and it was actually the opposite. They saved EUR70 per ticket compared to the cheapest online to the USA with DL. Sometimes they can be higher but never book online without checking a group rate first. It can be costly! Also getting a large volume of seats all at the same price you see online is very difficult.

USAOZ wrote:

We have tasked to find a way, at lowest cost, to move approximately 250, maybe more, Americans to Australia for a conference. The catch is the conference is at start of January, right in the middle of peak season for air travel.

Trying to work out if cheaper to use existing commercial services or charter flights.

The conference is for a week, but they all want to stay in OZ for approximately 2 weeks.

Isn't trying to arrange for them all to be on the same flights going to be like herding cats? In my experience, particularly when it comes to extending stays after a conference, attendees like to set their own agenda. You might therefore have difficulty tying them to the same inbound flight. That might make using a charter impossible, particularly if they are customers or professional associates and not colleagues who all work for the same company.

Lots of C-5 Galaxy sitting around Travis and Dover...most people on widebody flights don't sit next to a window anyway. So what if there are virtually no windows on a Galaxy. Trump being the businessman that he is might just be able to press the USAF into providing some charter airlift.

And if the USA won't play ball Volga Dnepr have similar airlift capability...hell maybe even go super-big time and try to get the AN-225!!

Try contacting Hi-Fly. They have the size of plane you need but im not sure of availability. Good luck!

vhtje wrote:

USAOZ wrote:

We have tasked to find a way, at lowest cost, to move approximately 250, maybe more, Americans to Australia for a conference. The catch is the conference is at start of January, right in the middle of peak season for air travel.

Trying to work out if cheaper to use existing commercial services or charter flights.

The conference is for a week, but they all want to stay in OZ for approximately 2 weeks.

Isn't trying to arrange for them all to be on the same flights going to be like herding cats? In my experience, particularly when it comes to extending stays after a conference, attendees like to set their own agenda. You might therefore have difficulty tying them to the same inbound flight. That might make using a charter impossible, particularly if they are customers or professional associates and not colleagues who all work for the same company.

individuals won't be paying for flights, so they'll be told what they are flying on, so a charter could work, but all about price.

ChrisFallon77 wrote:

Try contacting Hi-Fly. They have the size of plane you need but im not sure of availability. Good luck!

think Hifly are based on Europe ? Portugal ? To avoid paying for repositioning of aircraft, think the aircraft needs to be located, at the time, in either OZ or USA.

Yes, it's all sounding too hard.

Another option is now being looked at. Each individual may be given a budget, probably the cheapest fare & they can do their own arrangements & pay the difference & fly who they want, when they want. Some will then probably fly cheap via Asia. The Chinese seems to undercut every other airline by $50 or more, but long flight & some of the connections are awful.

So what happened?

Euro Atlantic airways Portugal may be an option.As the previous poster i too am curious to how this works out.Fingers crossed for you.