Airbus A350 Production And Delivery Thread - 2016-2017 (Part 17)

scbriml · Thu Jul 06, 2017 7:40 pm

The latest O&D spreadsheet does indeed show 4 x A350-900 cancellations and QR's numbers reduced from 43 to 39 (still 37 x 350-1000).

KarelXWB · Thu Jul 06, 2017 8:09 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
MSN 130 (TG #6) just completed its RTO

=>

RTO msn130 F-WZFB 6/7/2017 by A380_TLS_A350, on Flickr

fcogafa · Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:42 pm

QTR A359s rejected due to quality control and will be reallocated...

http://www.businessinsider.com/r-airbus ... 017-7?IR=T

Stitch · Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:51 pm

So that probably explains why they're leasing the LATAM birds in the short term (4-6 months)...

The "quality issues" appear to be with the cabin equipment per The New York Times.

VirginFlyer · Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:13 pm

Stitch wrote:
So that probably explains why they're leasing the LATAM birds in the short term (4-6 months)...

The "quality issues" appear to be with the cabin equipment per The New York Times.

Carpets perhaps? :duck:

V/F

Stitch · Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:16 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
Stitch wrote:
So that probably explains why they're leasing the LATAM birds in the short term (4-6 months)...

The "quality issues" appear to be with the cabin equipment per The New York Times.

Carpets perhaps?

The Times article noted Airbus has been having interior component issues with items like toilets, so it could be that or galleys or seats or a combination of things.

Not sure if Airbus has "preferred suppliers" for the A350 like Boeing does for the 787, which could mean these are not specifically BFE-related issues. Or it could be Airbus installation quality is the issue. Whatever, it's evidently serious enough to allow Qatar to walk away from the entire plane.

mjoelnir · Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:28 pm

Stitch wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
Stitch wrote:
So that probably explains why they're leasing the LATAM birds in the short term (4-6 months)...

The "quality issues" appear to be with the cabin equipment per The New York Times.

Carpets perhaps?

The Times article noted Airbus has been having interior component issues with items like toilets, so it could be that or galleys or seats or a combination of things.

Not sure if Airbus has "preferred suppliers" for the A350 like Boeing does for the 787, which could mean these are not specifically BFE-related issues. Or it could be Airbus installation quality is the issue. Whatever, it's evidently serious enough to allow Qatar to walk away from the entire plane.

If you need to slow down deliveries, finding quality problems is gold. I imagine that the quality problems are real and mostly problems related to the suppliers of that equipment, but the other airlines, some of the hardly less stringent in their quality requirements, seem to take their frames without delays. But we also see that for example Cathay frames leave TLS slightly delayed and need a lot of acceptance flights.

Stitch · Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:33 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
If you need to slow down deliveries, finding quality problems is gold.

True, but QR is taking LATAM birds via lease instead, so they're not slowing down deliveries - at least in the short term. And in the six months when LATAM needs those birds themselves, QR could (should?) have more A350-900s ready for delivery....

mjoelnir wrote:
I imagine that the quality problems are real and mostly problems related to the suppliers of that equipment, but the other airlines, some of the hardly less stringent in their quality requirements, seem to take their frames without delays. But we also see that for example Cathay frames leave TLS slightly delayed and need a lot of acceptance flights.

I'm just interested in knowing how Qatar can walk away from the entire airframe if the issue is with cabin equipment, which is usually Buyer-Furnished and ordered under a separate sales contract. For example, with all the issues with Zodiac and Koito seats, airframes were delayed for extended periods of time, but they were eventually delivered. I do not recall any orders for already-completed frames being cancelled in their entirety.

mjoelnir · Thu Jul 06, 2017 11:34 pm

Stitch wrote:
True, but QR is taking LATAM birds via lease instead, so they're not slowing down deliveries - at least in the short term. And in the six months when LATAM needs those birds themselves, QR could (should?) have more A350-900s ready for delivery..

The short term lease could mean less CAPEX now. Without delays Qatar should have taken 10 to 11 more frames by now, operating 25 own frames instead of 14 own and 4 on, I assume, some kind of wet lease.

Perhaps they even do not have the pilots ready for 25 frames.

gloom · Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:22 am

Stitch wrote:
QR ... they're not slowing down deliveries

Very questionable. They have problem getting own birds ~MSN80, while everyone else is getting MSN120. Also, other birds from same batch delivered to LATAM are ok (quality wise), while their own are not. There must be a story behind it, other than everyone thinks. It just doesn't stand compared to the facts we see.

Cheers,
Adam

gloom · Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:01 am

I have a quick question.

JL birds are specified to be 350-942, as opposite to everyone elses birds carrying 941 subtype. AFAIR second number was engine type (so Trent XWB, no surprise here, since no other option is available

). However, I can't find the third digit meaning. Anyone able to help with that?

Cheers,
Adam

BobMUC · Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:27 am

KarelXWB wrote:
The cabin equipped A350-1000 (MSN 65) is on its way to Al Ain (hot whether testing?):

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airc ... xv#df542c4

Already on it's way back to TLS:
https://www.flightradar24.com/AIB651/dfe9283

BOAC1966 · Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:27 am

Hot climate testing completed in AAN .....F-WLXV on way home for weekend!

StTim · Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:47 am

MSN127 LH4 has just made it's RTO.

BobMUC · Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:00 am

MSN130 TG #6 is preparing for FF:
https://www.flightradar24.com/AIB01FB/dfeedf9

KarelXWB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:51 am

Stitch wrote:
I'm just interested in knowing how Qatar can walk away from the entire airframe if the issue is with cabin equipment, which is usually Buyer-Furnished and ordered under a separate sales contract. For example, with all the issues with Zodiac and Koito seats, airframes were delayed for extended periods of time, but they were eventually delivered. I do not recall any orders for already-completed frames being cancelled in their entirety.

It's really odd to walk away from a fully assembled aircraft.

When a customer rejects an aircraft during the customer acceptance flight, either the vendor resolves the issues or both parties negotiate compensation penalties. The smaller issues usually get fixed during the first maintenance stop.

You would think Airbus knows how to resolve Qatar's issues after 15 deliveries.

True, but QR is taking LATAM birds via lease instead, so they're not slowing down deliveries - at least in the short term. And in the six months when LATAM needs those birds themselves, QR could (should?) have more A350-900s ready for delivery....

The LATAM lease was established before the blokkade, perhaps things have changed.

mjoelnir · Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:55 am

gloom wrote:
I have a quick question.

JL birds are specified to be 350-942, as opposite to everyone elses birds carrying 941 subtype. AFAIR second number was engine type (so Trent XWB, no surprise here, since no other option is available ). However, I can't find the third digit meaning. Anyone able to help with that?

Cheers,
Adam

the 942 is denoting a different version of the Trent XWB than the 941, usually it would be a difference thrust.

KarelXWB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:17 am

As part of the cancellation, work on 4 QR A350s have stopped immediately:

- MSN 63: fully outfitted, pulled from the flight line to one of the storage areas around the A380 site.
- MSN 78: fully outfitted, pulled away from the flight line, location unknown.
- MSN 90: paint shop entry after cabin fit cancelled, stored.
- MSN 100: pulled out of Station 20 (cabin fit), stored.

Photo below shows MSN 100 with a partly finished cabin.

Msn100 6/7/2017 by A380_TLS_A350, on Flickr

3rdGen · Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:28 am

Very strange. Very very very strange. I mean if Qatar continue to take the test of its allotted 80 350s and simply cancels these for then I seriously wonder what exactly this quality issue is. As someone said above, how on earth can you cancel frames from the manufacturer due to third party supplier issues?

Theseus · Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:39 am

KarelXWB wrote:
As part of the cancellation, work on 4 QR A350s have stopped immediately:

- MSN 63: fully outfitted, pulled from the flight line to one of the storage areas around the A380 site.
- MSN 78: fully outfitted, pulled away from the flight line, location unknown.
- MSN 90: paint shop entry after cabin fit cancelled, stored.
- MSN 100: pulled out of Station 20 (cabin fit), stored.

Incredible development. At the same time, MSN76 is at the Delivery Center undergoing CAF, and could go to Doha very soon...
Not counting the cancelled aircraft, I see 10 airframes for QR at various stages of the assembly process. Is Airbus taking any specific measure to mitigate the risk of such things happening again ?

KarelXWB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:41 am

Theseus wrote:
Incredible development. At the same time, MSN76 is at the Delivery Center undergoing CAF, and could go to Doha very soon...

Yep, and MSN 83 has not been rejected either.

StTim · Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:42 am

Remember they also played the game on neos. Have they cancelled all the neos they had or are they doing it drip feed?

KarelXWB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:47 am

StTim wrote:
Have they cancelled all the neos they had or are they doing it drip feed?

Nope, only 4 NEOs have been cancelled.

KarelXWB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:00 pm

BobMUC wrote:
Already on it's way back to TLS:
https://www.flightradar24.com/AIB651/dfe9283

Pic of MSN 65 at Al Ain:

KarelXWB · Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:30 pm

MSN 123 TG #5 is now online at the delivery centre:

https://fr24.com/123ER9/dff523e

Bricktop · Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:29 pm

Reason #254 why I would not want AAB as a launch customer. Too much drama. Other than the odd one off, no-one else has had a issue with what has been an exceptionally smooth and beautifully executed program to date.

JerseyFlyer · Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:34 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
As part of the cancellation, work on 4 QR A350s have stopped immediately:

- MSN 63: fully outfitted, pulled from the flight line to one of the storage areas around the A380 site.
- MSN 78: fully outfitted, pulled away from the flight line, location unknown.
- MSN 90: paint shop entry after cabin fit cancelled, stored.
- MSN 100: pulled out of Station 20 (cabin fit), stored.

If Qatar simply wanted to slow deliveries, and reduce total A359 fleet size, they could cancel as-yet unbuilt ones, and take these four at a more leisurely pace when fully satisfied as to quality.

The state of Qatar is getting a lot of help from Iran during the blockade by its Arab cousins - I wonder if these four A359s will end up as early deliveries to Iran Air, as a "thank you" for this help, facilitated by rather surprising cancellation rights that appear to have been triggered by QA due to equipment delays / quality issues?

Polot · Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:39 pm

Airbus is just going to give the planes to anyone willing to take them, or maybe use them to win a tight RFP. If they have multiple offers they will just take the highest bid.

Airbus is not going to use them as political tools to punish QR or help their allies. If Qatar wanted to "thank" Iran they would take the planes but immediately give them to Iran. By canceling the frames QR/Qatar loses all control of their fate.

Egerton · Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:02 pm

The actions of QR passeth all understanding

scbriml · Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:06 pm

Egerton wrote:
The actions of QR passeth all understanding

Here endeth today's lesson. :yes:

StTim · Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:08 pm

I presume they have made substantial stage payments on these frames as they are almost complete.

sassiciai · Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:12 pm

scbriml wrote:
Egerton wrote:
The actions of QR passeth all understanding

Here endeth today's lesson.

LOL!

The Fat Lady didn't sing yet, so here in Europe, today's lesson still has just under 7 hours still to go

I think we will be at hymn number 200 by then

audidudi · Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:35 pm

StTim wrote:
I presume they have made substantial stage payments on these frames as they are almost complete.

Hopefully that's the case. I would like nothing more than to know that QR will lose a ton of money by cancelling these frames. What a spineless LITTLE fraction of a LITTLE man AAB is!

Polot · Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:38 pm

audidudi wrote:
StTim wrote:
I presume they have made substantial stage payments on these frames as they are almost complete.

Hopefully that's the case. I would like nothing more than to know that QR will lose a ton of money by cancelling these frames. What a spineless LITTLE fraction of a LITTLE man AAB is!

We are just talking about planes here...no need for the dramatics. Airbus will survive. QR will survive.

777Mech · Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:38 pm

Slight correction on DL's first A350, it still will deliver on July 15th, but will stay in TLS until August 4th to accomplish the prior to service visit which includes 2Ku wifi installation.

KarelXWB · Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:41 am

BobMUC wrote:
MSN130 TG #6 is preparing for FF:
https://www.flightradar24.com/AIB01FB/dfeedf9

=>

Thai A350-941 msn 130 by dn280tls, on Flickr

BOEING777EK · Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:41 pm

Does anyone know which airline will take 4 Qatar A350 NTUs?

Stitch · Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:17 pm

BOEING777EK wrote:
Does anyone know which airline will take 4 Qatar A350 NTUs?

Airbus themselves don't know that at the moment, so... :shakehead:

TC957 · Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:18 pm

I would hardly think reallocating the 4 QR ntu frames elsewhere will be such a quick outcome, so you'll have to wait and see who'll take them. My guess will be Iran Air, Mahan or one of the Chinese carriers.

Geoff1947 · Sat Jul 08, 2017 9:26 pm

China most likely, that is what happened with the Sri Lanka and Azul NTUs.

Geoff

KarelXWB · Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:13 pm

MSN 127 LH #4 first flight today: https://fr24.com/AIB01FN/e089277

hkcanadaexpat · Mon Jul 10, 2017 1:51 pm

Second test flight for MSN 121 (CI #7) #AIB02GS

hkcanadaexpat · Mon Jul 10, 2017 3:59 pm

First engine run for MSN 133 (SQ #17) this afternoon

KarelXWB · Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:43 am

MSN 117 OZ #2 has moved to the delivery centre.

lvs · Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:49 am

MSN 115 DL #1 with final registration.
www.flightradar24.com/N501DN/e0b73a6

hkcanadaexpat · Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:14 pm

lvs wrote:
MSN 115 DL #1 with final registration.

That didn't last long. It is now wearing its test registration.
Also MSN 122 (SQ #16) completed its third test flight #AIB03FC

BobMUC · Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:01 pm

hkcanadaexpat wrote:
lvs wrote:
MSN 115 DL #1 with final registration.

That didn't last long. It is now wearing its test registration.

I still see it (or again) with it's final registration:
https://www.flightradar24.com/N501DN/e0b73a6

JeffinMass · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:15 pm

Unfortunately Airbus gets blamed for the A350 supply issues and the A320neo engine issues.

nethkt · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:44 pm

Back to the cancelled 4 QR A359s. Will there be rumour of TK taking them around airliners.net? So much false news TK taking this and that plane.
First, TK taking TG 380s, which TG never knew about the interest nor interested to lease them out.
Recently, TK taking current QR 787s, wow, seriously? QR even mentioned they are very much behind aircrafts delivery and cannot serve those announced stations due to no plane!!
Soon, soon, news on TK taking these 4 ex-QR 359s.

BOEING777EK · Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:57 pm

nethkt wrote:
Back to the cancelled 4 QR A359s. Will there be rumour of TK taking them around airliners.net? So much false news TK taking this and that plane.
First, TK taking TG 380s, which TG never knew about the interest nor interested to lease them out.
Recently, TK taking current QR 787s, wow, seriously? QR even mentioned they are very much behind aircrafts delivery and cannot serve those announced stations due to no plane!!
Soon, soon, news on TK taking these 4 ex-QR 359s.

At this moment TK will not be taking any of QRs A350 NTUs Due to political issues and safety concerns in Turkey about terrorist attacks TK will not be taking delivery of any aircraft anytime soon, they are already dumping loads of aircraft in their fleet which is stored then eventually left the fleet as days go on the safety concerns in Turkey becomes worse which lead to more aircraft being stored and retired so at this case TK will not take QR A350 NTUs due to safety concerns and low demand in tourism hope that explains your answer.

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