Delta LAX terminal plans updates and discussion thread

LAXintl · Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:15 pm

Details coming out regarding the letter of intent Delta has signed with LAWA to lease and refurbish Terminals 2 & 3.

This proposed move as presented would give Delta by far the most number of terminal gates at LAX of the 3 majors.

Article also provides information on planned relocation of existing T-2 & 3 tenant airlines, though the proposed AS-VX merger throws a bit of wrench in the published terminal redistribution. Quite a bit of musical chairs and smaller individual facility projects will be needed to make all the moves possible.

What's Delta's plan at LAX? Here's a possible sneak peak.
http://www.briansumers.com/home/2016... ... eventually

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In addition to what was posted in the story I understand the following details regarding the plans:

o Delta to be responsible to fund airline relocations (vacating T2/T3)
o Renovation program for T2 and T3 after relocations complete. (in other words DL will move in, then renovate)
o Design concepts being worked feature 22-27 gates. (today T2 & T3 have combined 23 gates while DL in T5 has 13 gates plus access to 3 T6 gates)
o As part of redevelopment project and to provide accommodations during construction closures, LAWA/Delta plan to reconfigure 2 current TBIT gates (122 & 123) into 3 Group-III and 1 Group-V capable gate to allow for overflow parking
o Delta will have ability to utilize other TBIT gates on a common use basis
o Delta intends to build a connector between T3 and TBIT (ala the AA T4 connector)
o Delta in the future may request LAWA convert TBA number of TBIT gates from common use to preferential use if they demonstrate usage of 1,500 Intl arriving seats per day, per gate.

Lets see how things play out. This would certainly give Delta the facility foundation for quite some growth at LAX.

Travelmanager · Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:41 pm

The increase in gates allows for a lot of growth. Is this all organic growth or is this allowing for some potential splitting of West Coast Asia gateway between SEA and LAX?

MAH4546 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
This proposed move as presented would give Delta by far the most number of terminal gates at LAX of the 3 majors.

No, it will not. AA has 15 in T4 (14 right now, 15 by June), 4 in T6, 9 in Eagle's Nest and 4 shared (exclusive use in the morning) in TBIT. (and soon 5 shared in TBIT). That's 33. Plus AA still has the rights to a 34th gate, as it has three "ghost" gates at the Nest (two of which are becoming the new mainline gates at T4). And that doesn't take into account that AA hopes to takeover all/most of T5, although that won't likely result in more gates, because it would simply replace the Nest.

It will be very good for Delta, though, consolidating everything and making it a lot easier for connections between partners.

LAXintl · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:05 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):

I used terminal "terminal", that does not count the adjunct remote Eagle facility.

Also TBIT gates are not exclusive as the deal was modified. They are really no different than anyone else that has common use access to TBIT these days especially in the early morning when DL and UA also utilize it.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
AA hopes to takeover all/most of T5, although that won't likely result in more gates, because it would simply replace the Nest.

According to event I attended all AA would get in T5 is swapping 4 of its T6 gates for 4 in T5. No more no less.

Take a look at the terminal image posted in the article. I think it nicely breaks down the LAWA plan visually.

mercure1 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:18 pm

Interesting. I assume close Delta partners and today T2 tenants Virgin Atlantic and Aeromexico would remain in T-2?

If this plan comes to fruition it increase Delta LAX footprint quite a bit.
Also a link to TBIT would be nice for connection clients and access to other Skyteam airlines like AZ/AF/KL/KE/MU, which I presume would remain at TBIT.

n515cr · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:20 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Article also provides information on planned relocation of existing T-2 & 3 tenant airlines, though the proposed AS-VX merger throws a bit of wrench in the published terminal redistribution. Quite a bit of musical chairs and smaller individual facility projects will be needed to make all the moves possible.

This is all purely speculation on my part, but I think the following would make some sense at a high-level (all contracts, etc aside):
- AC would likely want to be in T-6 to make any AC/UA connections easier.
- VX moves to T-6 instead of T-5 to be with AS, so then swap VX's original T-5 move with moving B6 and NK over to T-5 (makes B6/HA connections easier).
- VS and maybe AM could stay in T-2. VS also just opened a Clubhouse in T-2, so I doubt they'd want to leave anytime soon.
- SY - maybe T-5 or T-6?
- All the rest are int'l (QR, HU, 4O, TA, Y4, and WS) and could go to TBIT.

[Edited 2016-04-18 10:23:00]

LAXintl · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:37 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
tenants Virgin Atlantic and Aeromexico would remain in T-2?

I would say yes. VS has invested lots of money into its new lounge , while AM staying near DL achives the collocation plan DL mentioned over a year ago.

Quoting n515cr (Reply 5):
- AC would likely want to be in T-6 to make any AC/UA connections easier.
- VX moves to T-6 instead of T-5 to be with AS, so then swap VX's original T-5 move with moving B6 and NK over to T-5 (makes B6/HA connections easier).
- VS and maybe AM could stay in T-2. VS also just opened a Clubhouse in T-2, so I doubt they'd want to leave anytime soon.
- SY - maybe T-5 or T-6?
- All the rest are int'l (QR, HU, 4O, TA, Y4, and WS) and could go to TBIT.

o Agree with you swapping B6 and NK over to T5 to allows combined AS-VX in T6.
o Like mentioned see AM and VS staying in T2
o SY could also go either T5 or T6 imo.
o QR might be interesting as they signed and have been paying for space to build a new lounge at T2. Moving them to TBIT they would lose that investment and TBIT has no room for additional lounge once the EY lounge opens this year. First avail lounge space wont be till 2020 when the MSC opens.
o HU AV/TA can probably move to TBIT without issue.
o Not too sure 4O or Y4 would want TBIT and its cost structure. They might be better at T6 to access FIS(even with its more limited hours) to save on terminal cost.
o WS is domestic arrival so also they probably dont want to be at TBIT so could do either T5 or T6 instead.

MAH4546 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:38 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
Also TBIT gates are not exclusive as the deal was modified. They are really no different than anyone else that has common use access to TBIT these days especially in the early morning when DL and UA also utilize it.

They are exclusive between 5am and 11am when TBIT is empty, and AA has been using for domestic flights.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
According to event I attended all AA would get in T5 is swapping 4 of its T6 gates for 4 in T5. No more no less.

AA's hope is to take all/most of T5. I am not sure how far along that has progressed, if at all.

FSDan · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:40 pm

So at the end of all this it will be possible to walk between all terminals behind security except for T1. Any chance WN would fund a T1-T2 connector since they now have international arrivals at LAX?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2):
AA has 15 in T4 (14 right now, 15 by June)

Where are the additional gates being added? Just at the end of T4, or by shifting gates all the way around the terminal?

RyanairGuru · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:42 pm

So is Delta taking over the gate leases for the whole of T2? I thought that the deal was for the lease on T3 and then preferential access to T2 gates? If all tenants at T2 have to move then that is going to be a challenge as TBIT is pretty much full at peak times.

Moving HA, SY, WS and AC to the CUTE gates at T5 and T6 makes perfect sense. Assuming VS and AM stay put that leaves Avianca, Volaris and Qatar. I can't see Qatar moving voluntarily due to the lounge situation, but for one arrival per day I'm sure DL could accommodate if necessary.

ldvaviation · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:48 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
I used terminal "terminal", that does not count the adjunct remote Eagle facility.

Also TBIT gates are not exclusive as the deal was modified. They are really no different than anyone else that has common use access to TBIT these days especially in the early morning when DL and UA also utilize it.

This is not correct.

The condition for preferential exclusivity is still in place. The threshold remains 19 gates which coincidentally will be met when the three gates at the end of the north concourse are converted to four.

To keep that from happening before the MSC North is complete, LAWA has rather disingenuously scheduled the opening of those gates so that the last one will not become available until the MSC North is ready. (This is one of the many reasons why AA and LAWA are at odds now. There may be a legal response.)

Whatever the case, the four southeast gates that AA uses now at TBIT will become preferential use by the date the MSC opens.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 3):
According to event I attended all AA would get in T5 is swapping 4 of its T6 gates for 4 in T5. No more no less.

Take a look at the terminal image posted in the article. I think it nicely breaks down the LAWA plan visually.

It looks that way now because of the timing of the events. Because Delta chose rather wisely to move before the MSC North is complete, the existing airlines in T2 and T3 had to be relocated to whatever space was available, including T5. As such, Delta basically kept AA from expanding as it (Delta) embarks on rebuilding T3.

The gate allocation will probably remain this way until the MSC North is complete, at which time something more will be done to appease AA. The way Delta's move has been handled so far has put AA and LAWA at odds. You will note that there is almost no talk now of expediting the EIR for the MSC South.

mercure1 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:54 pm

When MSC open. Was it 2020 as mentioned in other thread?

If so DL has nice facility advantage over AA until such time.

LAXintl · Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting ldvaviation (Reply 10):
Whatever the case, the four southeast gates that AA uses now at TBIT will become preferential use by the date the MSC opens.

Which is at least 4-years out at the earliest for AA.

Quoting ldvaviation (Reply 10):
It looks that way now because of the timing of the events. Because Delta chose rather wisely to move before the MSC North is complete, the existing airlines in T2 and T3 had to be relocated to whatever space was available, including T5. As such, Delta basically kept AA from expanding as it (Delta) embarks on rebuilding T3.
The gate allocation will probably remain this way until the MSC North is complete, at which time something more will be done to appease AA. The way Delta's move has been handled so far has put AA and LAWA at odds. You will note that there is almost no talk now of expediting the EIR for the MSC South.

Yes interesting politics and maneuvering at work. DL manages to pull a fast one with access to more actual terminal gates plus immediate access to TBIT both on exclusive and common use basis.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 11):

When MSC open. Was it 2020 as mentioned in other thread?

Project calls for March 2020 'delivery' by contractor.

diverdave · Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:23 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Yes interesting politics and maneuvering at work. DL manages to pull a fast one with access to more actual terminal gates plus immediate access to TBIT both on exclusive and common use basis.

Interesting stuff.

How will LAX keep Southwest happy in all of this? Are there plans for the rumored Terminal 0 or will WN have some access to TBIT for its international flights?

Also wondering if any of UA's partners could share T7, as honestly T7 and T8 don't appear to be utilized that heavily.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 7):
AA's hope is to take all/most of T5. I am not sure how far along that has progressed, if at all.

If that happens and DL gets all of T2 and T3, a lot of airlines end up fighting for T6. Time for some popcorn. Smile

Does the Eagle remote terminal go away at some future point?

Thank you,
David

[Edited 2016-04-18 11:33:23]

tortugamon · Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:32 pm

I wonder if it makes more sense to move VX and AS together at terminal 6 once this merger goes through and then move some combination of B6, NK, and/or AC to terminal 5 to compensate.

Quoting FSDan (Reply 8):
Any chance WN would fund a T1-T2 connector since they now have international arrivals at LAX?

Now that is a long walk.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 9):
I can't see Qatar moving voluntarily due to the lounge situation, but for one arrival per day I'm sure DL could accommodate if necessary.

I've read quite a few trip reports that have indicated the terminal 2 setup isn't going so well for QR. I wonder if terminal 5 space makes more sense to link up with the OneWorld lounge and AA connecting flights.

tortugamon

LAXintl · Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:46 pm

Quoting diverdave (Reply 13):
How will LAX keep Southwest happy in all of this?

Southwest just got access to entire T-1 and is midst of large remodel. They will have plenty additional capacity when all said and done.

Quoting diverdave (Reply 13):
Are there plans for the rumored Terminal 0 or will WN have some access to TBIT for its international flights?

Nothing formal on T-0, just studies kicked around.

WN uses T-2 for its international arrivals. They are free to use TBIT if they desire, but obviously T-2 is much easier logistically being only across the alley.

Quoting diverdave (Reply 13):
Also wondering if any of UA's partners could share T7, as honestly T7 and T8 don't appear to be utilized that heavily.

UA has a gate squeeze with its now smaller footprint with often extended holds especially during evening hours. For atleast another year they also have 2 contact gates out of service due to the renovations.
Plus UA is not in the business of handling others, so don't see any partners moving in.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 14):
I've read quite a few trip reports that have indicated the terminal 2 setup isn't going so well for QR. I wonder if terminal 5 space makes more sense to link up with the OneWorld lounge and AA connecting flights.

Whats not going well?
Only issue I've heard is the number of passengers being held for secondary screening and CBP need to transfer them to TBIT for processing
Keep in mind T-2 renovations still underway to its a work in progress and will only get better. Its becoming a smaller much more manageable version of TBIT, but pardon the dust in the interim.
Lastly regarding T5, it has pretty limited FIS operating hours and staffing, plus has gating issues for large planes like 777LR with loss of adjacent gates.

MAH4546 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:52 pm

Quoting FSDan (Reply 8):
Where are the additional gates being added? Just at the end of T4, or by shifting gates all the way around the terminal?

One of them already opened, it was squeezed next to 46A/46B (which are now 46A/46B/46C). The other one opens in a few weeks, between 48B and 49A. Since AA now has TBIT space, it is giving up widebody room at T4 for more the two extra gates.

Sightseer · Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:24 pm

Looks like DL will get a significantly larger LAX footprint when this is all said and done. How will the renovations in T2/T3 work, since the article says DL will be moving prior to that beginning? I guess they'll be done incrementally so as to be as minimally disruptive as possible.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta in the future may request LAWA convert TBA number of TBIT gates from common use to preferential use if they demonstrate usage of 1,500 Intl arriving seats per day, per gate.

So if I'm reading this correctly, for every 1,500 daily arriving international seats DL operates, they would be granted preferential use of one gate at TBIT? Between the widebodies across the Pacific and the various Mexican/Central American flights, they're probably close to 1,500 already.

AABB777 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 9):
I can't see Qatar moving voluntarily due to the lounge situation, but for one arrival per day I'm sure DL could accommodate if necessa

My guess is that DL will not want to accommodate QR in T2. Most likely, QR will be moved to TBIT.

deltairlines · Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:51 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 17):
So if I'm reading this correctly, for every 1,500 daily arriving international seats DL operates, they would be granted preferential use of one gate at TBIT? Between the widebodies across the Pacific and the various Mexican/Central American flights, they're probably close to 1,500 already.

Right now it's right around 2700. If they get the LAX-PEK award, it wouldn't take much (basically an RJ to Mexico) to top 3000 international seats a day.

tortugamon · Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:52 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Whats not going well?

Yeah I have read that security isn't so hot nor is the lounge for QR is the AC Maple Leaf Lounge?

Here is a recent trip report. I understand the terminal is being renovated:
http://www.airlinereporter.com/2016/...isappointing-flight-qatar-airways/

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Lastly regarding T5, it has pretty limited FIS operating hours and staffing, plus has gating issues for large planes like 777LR with loss of adjacent gates.

Solid point, forgot about that. TBIT may make the most sense then. Transferring to terminal 4 and 5 isn't so bad there either.

Do you have info about Southwest gaining gates at Terminal 1? I thought WN had all 13 gates for quite some time. Also, I would expect that WN would be very interested in operating more than 13 gates if they could so I would think they would be very interested in a terminal 0.

tortugamon

N1120A · Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
Yeah I have read that security isn't so hot nor is the lounge for QR is the AC Maple Leaf Lounge?

The security situation in T2 has sucked for years. It got marginally better when AC and HA customers got Pre Check access, but it is still pretty awful. It hasn't helped since they had a change in management to more confrontational types either.

The MLL space, which was formerly the Koru Club space, is well sized and appointed. If AC were to move and QR were to stay, it would make sense for QR to move in there.

LAXintl · Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting Sightseer (Reply 17):
So if I'm reading this correctly, for every 1,500 daily arriving international seats DL operates, they would be granted preferential use of one gate at TBIT? Between the widebodies across the Pacific and the various Mexican/Central American flights, they're probably close to 1,500 already.

In order to achieve preferential use of a TBIT gate, DL would need to meet a minimum usage performance levels.

Delta in this case would need to demonstrate that it would exceed the current daily average common use gate passenger usage count by offering 1,500 or more arrival seats per day in order to gain that single gate.
In other words, if DL wants a preferential gate it needs to keep it busy. It would be detriment to all if DL was given a gate with minimal activity level, while remainder of terminal gates were much busier.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
Do you have info about Southwest gaining gates at Terminal 1? I thought WN had all 13 gates for quite some time. Also, I would expect that WN would be very interested in operating more than 13 gates if they could so I would think they would be very interested in a terminal 0.

With ongoing construction, SWA has yet to access more than 10 gates at a time in T-1. As of last week for example 4 gates are out of service.

RyanairGuru · Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 14):

Hmm, going to T5 and taking over the current DL SkyClub space (or at least some of it as the total floor space is probably too large) could be an option. It would be handy for AA connections as well. Does T5 FIS operate during their schedule?

Quoting AABB777 (Reply 18):

QR refused to operate from TBIT the first time around, and nothing has changed since then. QR want their own lounge and has secured space for it at T2 (the old NZ lounge?) but there is no space at all for another lounge at TBIT. The situation with the Maple Leaf Lounge is only temporary.

On the subject of Maple Leaf Lounge, AC can presumably take over the old Presidents Club/United Club in T6. Does anyone else apart from VS have a lounge in T2 which might need accommodating?

ldvaviation · Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:37 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Yes interesting politics and maneuvering at work. DL manages to pull a fast one with access to more actual terminal gates plus immediate access to TBIT both on exclusive and common use basis.

The access to TBIT is not immediate or exclusive. The four gates at the end of the north concourse will not become fully available until 2020 and during the rebuild of T3 they are primarily intended for overflow situations. Beyond that, there is a framework for requesting preferential access, but there are no guarantees.

As to the actual number of gates, that number will ultimately be determined by LAWA's gate usage requirements. Delta's current schedule cannot support 22 to 27 gates. Delta can meet the requirements by growing substantially over its current requirement of 16 gates in T5 /6 or by sharing some of the gates with its Skyteam partners. We shall see how the math all works out. There won't be much opportunity for growth during construction.

As to the "fast one" in general, I think it is worth noting that Delta had to pay to play. The upfront outlay of $1B+ is twice the amount of what United (LAWA) is spending on its terminal renovation and at least 7 times the amount that AA still owes on its terminal renovation.

Of course, the cheaper solution to Delta's gate problem with an earlier delivery schedule would have been to give Delta all or some of MSC North, which LAWA itself is financing. But it seems LAWA did not give up the farm on this deal. I do hope Sea-Tac is watching because this is the kind of deal they need to make with Delta.

cageyjames · Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:52 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
On the subject of Maple Leaf Lounge, AC can presumably take over the old Presidents Club/United Club in T6.

Is that already used as the Alaska Board Room?

N1120A · Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:54 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 25):

Is that already used as the Alaska Board Room?

No. The Alaska Board Room is on the Mezzanine level of the Rotunda portion. The old PC was in the connector building.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):

On the subject of Maple Leaf Lounge, AC can presumably take over the old Presidents Club/United Club in T6.

That space has already been repurposed as restaurant/retail.

RyanairGuru · Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 25):

I thought AS were further up, but could be wrong

EnviroTO · Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:34 pm

How many gates is AC using at peak times? With the AS-VX tie up that would leave:

T5:
====
AA - 4
B6 - 2
NK - 3
Common - 6 including HA

T6:
====
AS/VX - 12
Common - 3 including AC

United1 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:44 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
On the subject of Maple Leaf Lounge, AC can presumably take over the old Presidents Club/United Club in T6.

AC will probably just use the UC in Terminal 7....the new one they are building is certainly large enough.

WA707atMSP · Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:49 pm

Will DL refurbish T3, or will T3 be torn down and replaced with a more modern facility, like T2 was in the late 1980s?

Tugger · Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 20):
I would expect that WN would be very interested in operating more than 13 gates if they could

Is there a reason why they don't or can't use all 15 spaces that are shown for T1?

Tugg

tortugamon · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:03 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22):
With ongoing construction, SWA has yet to access more than 10 gates at a time in T-1. As of last week for example 4 gates are out of service.

Ok got it. Still I would think WN would have an interest in more gates than 13.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
It would be handy for AA connections as well. Does T5 FIS operate during their schedule

I think LAXintl's response about gate spacing is a good one. I don't envy connecting passengers.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 28):
How many gates is AC using at peak times? With the AS-VX tie up that would leave:

Doesn't AC have just 4 destinations from LAX? Can't imagine they need more than two gates at once but don't know the timing.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 31):
Is there a reason why they don't or can't use all 15 spaces that are shown for T1?

I thought it was going to be 13 gates after the renovations. Maybe it was 15 with regional jets but not enough room for 737s? Not sure. I think they have the whole terminal however it shakes out though.

tortugamon

cageyjames · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
No. The Alaska Board Room is on the Mezzanine level of the Rotunda portion. The old PC was in the connector building.

Ah right, that's a pretty small space IIRC. I suppose it is better than moving over to T7.

deltairlines · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:18 pm

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 32):
Doesn't AC have just 4 destinations from LAX? Can't imagine they need more than two gates at once but don't know the timing.

AC needs 3 gates for their initial morning push (4 flights, but one can double up) and their pre-lunch push. This is based on today's schedule.

briguychau · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:41 pm

I'd imagine with the VX/AS merger, the combined AS will occupy T6, while AC can use the far rotunda at the end of T6 which can hold the AC 777/787s. Then, B6, NK, and WS could probably fit in T5 instead of T6.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 28):

How many gates is AC using at peak times?

Here's a list I made of the AC LAX operation schedule for the July 3-9, 2016 week:

http://pastebin.com/U8W5N8AT

Most gates used at one time is 3, assuming that they can fit a 787, 767, and sometimes a 777 into one of the gates, and that RON aircraft are moved to a remote stand so that another plane can jump in and use the gate.

[Edited 2016-04-18 15:58:18]

N1120A · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:43 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 29):
AC will probably just use the UC in Terminal 7....the new one they are building is certainly large enough.

That is way too far to make work, and also is inconsistent with the product AC offers in the MLL.

If AC were to move to T6, I'd imagine they would build out their own lounge. There is space there. I would imagine this is one of the costs DL is going to have to consider.

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 28):

How many gates is AC using at peak times?

Too many for 3 common use gates to make work.

Quoting tortugamon (Reply 32):
Doesn't AC have just 4 destinations from LAX? Can't imagine they need more than two gates at once but don't know the timing.

They have high frequency to YYZ and YVR, plus are busy first thing and at around noon. This includes widebodies.

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 33):
Ah right, that's a pretty small space IIRC. I suppose it is better than moving over to T7.

The AS space is fine for what it does - serve Alaska passengers, American T6 passengers, plus AMEX Platinum and Priority Pass. It would be a stretch for a fully loaded AC792, or the AC morning rush, in addition to the current tasks it has.

rbavfan · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:45 pm

Quoting n515cr (Reply 5):
This is all purely speculation on my part, but I think the following would make some sense at a high-level (all contracts, etc aside):
- AC would likely want to be in T-6 to make any AC/UA connections easier.
- VX moves to T-6 instead of T-5 to be with AS, so then swap VX's original T-5 move with moving B6 and NK over to T-5 (makes B6/HA connections easier).
- VS and maybe AM could stay in T-2. VS also just opened a Clubhouse in T-2, so I doubt they'd want to leave anytime soon.
- SY - maybe T-5 or T-6?
- All the rest are int'l (QR, HU, 4O, TA, Y4, and WS) and could go to TBIT.

I would say yes to most but VS & AM move to the 2 Tbit temp gates when all is done. Delta having access to closer TBIT gates so all customs & International now in one spot with the connector to T3. T2/3 domestic only. This idea because if all the other International carriers move out of T2, Why have customs facilities for so few flights from DL, VS, AM. More efficient to merge them all to TBIT with its 11 new gates.

N1120A · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:50 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 37):
I would say yes to most but VS & AM move to the 2 Tbit temp gates when all is done. Delta having access to closer TBIT gates so all customs & International now in one spot with the connector to T3. T2/3 domestic only. This idea because if all the other International carriers move out of T2, Why have customs facilities for so few flights from DL, VS, AM. More efficient to merge them all to TBIT with its 11 new gates.

T2 is the second largest and second busiest FIS facility at the airport. It is a well established operation and it would be pointless to destroy that. Further, WN's international operations are using T2.

questions · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:52 pm

I thought T2 and T3 were dumps and that they would be torn down and rebuilt. Is Delta simply going to refurbish them? Is this going to be like what DL did at LGA? I did not think the terminals were as salvageable as DL's LGA terminals. DL just sunk a bunch of money into T5. They have to be getting some deal from LAWA or is the sunk costs worth it for more gates?

United1 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:52 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):
That is way too far to make work, and also is inconsistent with the product AC offers in the MLL.

AC uses UA lounges in quite a few places in the US and worldwide....although its true it will be a different product than the MLL for one point no MLL has an outdoor deck that I know of. It's less than 600 feet inside of security from the T7 lounge to T6....hardly very far.

MAH4546 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:58 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
Further, WN's international operations are using T2

No plural. Just one daily flight in the over-served Liberia market.

rbavfan · Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:58 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):

It would not be so busy if all but DL, VS, AM & WN are the only one using it. Why thin the limited customs crews at that point.

rbavfan · Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:01 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
No plural.

Note southwest does plan to expand further to more Int. cities.

airportugal310 · Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:11 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 21):
The security situation in T2 has sucked for years. It got marginally better when AC and HA customers got Pre Check access, but it is still pretty awful. It hasn't helped since they had a change in management to more confrontational types either.

Agreed. LAX T2 TSA people are the worst I have ever encountered. Anywhere. EVER.

ldvaviation · Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:11 pm

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 37):
I would say yes to most but VS & AM move to the 2 Tbit temp gates when all is done. Delta having access to closer TBIT gates so all customs & International now in one spot with the connector to T3. T2/3 domestic only. This idea because if all the other International carriers move out of T2, Why have customs facilities for so few flights from DL, VS, AM. More efficient to merge them all to TBIT with its 11 new gates.

The math at TBIT West changes considerably after 2020. Of the 19 gates in TBIT West, only 16 will practically be of any use to most of the TBIT airlines because of gate classification (e.g., Group IV or V). Of those 16, 5 will be allocated to AA for its preferential use. That leaves 11 gates at TBIT West for use by the other carriers. One of those wide body gates at the northernmost end of the terminal will be more or less dedicated to Delta during the rebuild of T3. So make that 10 gates for everyone else.

Those 10 gates will be supplemented by 12 gates at the MSC for a total of 22. That's only 5 more gates than TBIT West has now. (One of the 18 gates is still inactive.)

What you are proposing would never work because there aren't enough free gates for the number of flights AM, DL, and VS might operate at peak times. In part, that is why VS and AM are staying in T2, but also why airlines like KLM and AF might move to T2.

N1120A · Mon Apr 18, 2016 11:15 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
No plural. Just one daily flight in the over-served Liberia market.

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 43):
Note southwest does plan to expand further to more Int. cities.

As of right this second. When they fully cut over to Altea, things will change substantially.

Quoting rbavfan (Reply 42):
It would not be so busy if all but DL, VS, AM & WN are the only one using it. Why thin the limited customs crews at that point.

Actually, that would still be very busy.

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 44):
Agreed. LAX T2 TSA people are the worst I have ever encountered. Anywhere. EVER.

JFK is pretty awful too. EWR was, but seems to be improving. LAX T6/7 is pretty awful. LAX T4 is decently run, for some reason.

tortugamon · Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:57 am

Quoting deltairlines (Reply 34):
AC needs 3 gates for their initial morning push (4 flights, but one can double up) and their pre-lunch push. This is based on today's schedule.

Thanks. Hard to believe they need 3 gates for 4 destinations but I guess frequencies and timing are important.

I believe AC clears customs/FIS in Canada so they won't need Terminal 2 FIS.

Quoting briguychau (Reply 35):
I'd imagine with the VX/AS merger, the combined AS will occupy T6, while AC can use the far rotunda at the end of T6 which can hold the AC 777/787s. Then, B6, NK, and WS could probably fit in T5 instead of T6

That would do it. Lounges would be a problem still though.

tortugamon

747megatop · Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:52 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Details coming out regarding the letter of intent Delta has signed with LAWA to lease and refurbish Terminals 2 & 3.

This proposed move as presented would give Delta by far the most number of terminal gates at LAX of the 3 majors.

After all this is implemented it will be interesting to see if DL splits it's international ops between T2 and TBIT or keep international ops mostly at T2 or mostly at TBIT. Having travelled internationally extensively out of old TBIT, new TBIT and then T2; TBIT wins hands down at least for me. Even a refurbished T2...well remains to be seen how good it will be relative to the new TBIT unless of course they demolish the building and rebuild it completely like the new TBIT. Even though it is expensive, who knows, it may be money better spent rebuilding T2 and T3 from scratch in a linear manner parallel to the existing main terminal so that the design is a long lasting one that will ease the movement of jets in the notorious congested alley ways that LAX is (in)famous for.

jfklganyc · Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:02 am

What about the passenger cap from the Master Plan a few years ago?

Everyone seems to be forgetting that.

Is it just BS?

What gates get demolished if the threshold is exceeded?

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