Horizon Changes And Why Not Just Make It AS

flybynight · Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:05 pm

So AS has ordered a bunch of 175's which is good news for me as frequent flier on Horizon.
Some questions though:

1 - Why not just make it all AS and eliminate the differences
2 - I know some Q400's are going away, but what about the rest of them
3 - Why doesn't AS use Horizon's popular beer/wine service (one drink for free)? I know it is popular on those afternoon flights back to SEA!!
4 - Do the 175's use jetways more, or will (most) of the boarding continue within the C-gates at SEA (and some at N-gates)?
5 - Before the Q400's,w asn't Horizon using F28's?
6 - I believe about 7 years ago I flew on a Q200, why the removal? Seemed like on some flights (say Yakima or Port Angeles) these smaller props made sense.

doug_or · Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:11 pm

1. You can pay Horizon Employees less
2. Nothing official, but they're great for the shorter routes in the PNW
3. Its not just one drink, its as many as there are services (more if if you're nice to the FA), but it is only offered on 1 class aircraft.
4. Its been a mix with OO, but they use jet bridges when available. Unless something changes there aren't many available in SEA.
5. Yes. And in in between they used CRJ-700s. They were one of the first to fly the type I believe. 7 still operate for Alaska with OO, the rest were sold off to other buyers.
6. Older and less efficient aircraft. Some cities lost service, some got reduced frequency with a Q400. Pen Air is returning to some of these markets with a SAAB and AS codeshare.

flybynight · Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:15 pm

Quoting doug_or (Reply 1):
6. Older and less efficient aircraft. Some cities lost service, some got reduced frequency with a Q400. Pen Air is returning to some of these markets with a SAAB and AS codeshare.

Very interesting. I would love to know what cities that would be.

Quoting doug_or (Reply 1):
Its not just one drink, its as many as there are services (more if if you're nice to the FA), but it is only offered on 1 class aircraft.

You're correct. Smile a little and if time permits, I've had two pretty full cups of white wine on occasion.

Especially if sitting up front.

b747400erf · Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:31 pm

Also not just paying Horizon less, but allowing flexibility in changing your routes and cutting routes at will without having to worry about the expenses of hiring and firing depending on the economic winds. You can just tell your regional airline you require less flying and let them worry about the details on how that is done. This is why contract employees are so popular in the corporate world today.

BoeingGuy · Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 2):
Quoting doug_or (Reply 1):
Its not just one drink, its as many as there are services (more if if you're nice to the FA), but it is only offered on 1 class aircraft.

You're correct. Smile a little and if time permits, I've had two pretty full cups of white wine on occasion. Especially if sitting up front.

I've had more than that. I (truthfully) told the F/A that we only had to walk across the street to the hotel with no driving that night on a SEA-FAT OO/AS flight. My beer cup was never empty. I've had that experience a lot on QX or the OO flights for AS. These have all been among the best domestic flights I've ever had.

EA CO AS · Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:19 pm

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
Why not just make it all AS and eliminate the differences

Cost. Much of the QX CPA flying becomes unprofitable if done under AS CBAs.

Alias1024 · Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:36 pm

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
6 - I believe about 7 years ago I flew on a Q200, why the removal? Seemed like on some flights (say Yakima or Port Angeles) these smaller props made sense.

At the time QX had three fleets. 28 Q200s, 20 Q400s, and 20 CRJ-700s. It was making them quite expensive from the standpoints of maintenance and pilot training. The decision was made to look at reducing fleet types to save money. The CRJ fleet was partially operating under the Horizon brand, and partially coming off of a CPA with Frontier so they only had IIRC 13 aircraft flying for Alaska Air Group, too small a fleet to operate economically. Some were leased overseas and the remainder leased to SkyWest, who operated a handful for Alaska on routes where the Q400 didn't work well, and operated the others for DL. You can still see them in DL colors wearing their original QX registrations.

With that decision made it left the Q400 and Q200. The 200s were getting older and had only half the revenue potential of the 400. It was decided they could reasonably substitute Q400s into most Q200 markets and make the fleet far more efficient when factoring in maintenance, training, scheduling flexibility, etc... Some markets like OTH, LMT, and the intra-Idaho routes were dropped, but most of the network was able to absorb the extra seats.

All that figured out, QX announced in 2007 their intention to move from the three fleets to an all Q400 fleet.

rampbro · Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:54 pm

Just on the topic of the Q200s, I'm sure they were starting to hit them in the reliability metrics. Seemed like we were dealing with an AOG per week at YYJ circa 2005-2006.

flybynight · Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:50 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 6):
All that figured out, QX announced in 2007 their intention to move from the three fleets to an all Q400 fleet

Interesting how that's changed. For years I was reading how QX would be going all-Q400's

I welcome the change, even if the 175's won't be used much on SEA-GEG.

BoeingGuy · Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:49 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 6):
Some markets like OTH, LMT, and the intra-Idaho routes were dropped, but most of the network was able to absorb the extra seats.

We had an interesting thread a few years ago about all the markets Horizon had dropped. Off-hand it's:

Butte
Idaho Falls
Pocatello
Moses Lake
Port Angeles
Salem
Coos Bay
Klamath Falls
Pendleton
Eureka
Redding
Flagstaff
Prescott
Kamloops (Seasonal)
Astoria (short lived)
La Paz

Longer ago they dropped Salt Lake City before the recent increase in SLC flights. Also, they've dropped Long Beach before it's come and gone a few times.

atcsundevil · Wed Apr 13, 2016 2:57 am

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
Why not just make it all AS and eliminate the differences

Part of the reason behind bringing in the E175s with two-class service is to minimize (and hope to effectively eliminate) the differences between Alaska mainline and Horizon, while maintaining separate entities for cost savings. Having that said, it's getting to the point where the only significant difference in expenditure is staffing, but even that isn't a terribly huge gap (although with to continue outsourcing on some level), hence why UA, DL, and to a lesser extent AA, are bringing more small narrowbody flying back to mainline.

However, from a customer experience perspective, there will be very few differences between the Horizon product and the Alaska product, owing to the fact that the E175s looks and feels like a mainline product inside and out. Eliminating or at least minimizing product gaps has become far more important to airlines in recent years, which is certainly a welcome change. 50-seaters are not only not popular, but they're not cost effective anymore.

JBo · Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:13 am

While it would be theoretically possible to combine Horizon's operations into Alaska's operating certificate, there are several significant hurdles to consider:

- Pilot unions/payscales: since the QX fleet is smaller, I would think it'd be theoretically possible to simply amend the QX payscale to the AS payscale as-is, but I doubt the two unions would want to make it that easy.
- F/A unions/payscales: Assuming that F/A payscales are also based on the airframe (I'm honestly not familiar), the same scenario arsies. If payscales aren't based on aircraft, but simply on seniority, this could be an even bigger headache.
- Mechanics: I imagine QX and AS have separate MX teams and unions, so again, we'd have combination headaches.

I don't think it's impossible to combine QX and AS into a single operation, but there would be a LOT of union hurdles to overcome. If they were able to overcome those hurdles, they could possibly eliminate some administrative overhead by only having one management team, one dispatch crew, etc.

EA CO AS · Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting JBo (Reply 11):
they could possibly eliminate some administrative overhead by only having one management team

Many administrative roles are already under a "shared services" umbrella, covering both AS and QX. In other cases, some QX parts of the operation have already been folded into AS, like the call center (when QX eliminated branded flying and went all-CPA).

So, quite a bit of the cost savings of integrating the two are already being realized and have been for some time.

robsaw · Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:23 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 3):

Also not just paying Horizon less, but allowing flexibility in changing your routes and cutting routes at will without having to worry about the expenses of hiring and firing depending on the economic winds. You can just tell your regional airline you require less flying and let them worry about the details on how that is done. This is why contract employees are so popular in the corporate world today.

A couple of issues with that:
- Many regionals like Horizon operate under capacity purchase agreements (CPA) that are relatively long-term and aren't as easily changed as you suggest.
- Horizon is a wholly-owned unit of Alaska Air Group, so Horizon's problems are Alaska's problems.

ASFlyer · Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:27 am

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
So AS has ordered a bunch of 175's which is good news for me as frequent flier on Horizon.
Some questions though:

1 - Why not just make it all AS and eliminate the differences

Why not just roll Endeavor into Delta Airlines or Envoy into American. Why does everyone ask why Horizon isn't a part of Alaska yet nobody is asking about either of these airlines? Horizon is a regional airline that happens to be owned by the parent company of Alaska Airlines. They aren't a mainline airline and for the same reasons Envoy or Endeavor aren't AA or DL, Horizon isn't Alaska.

mtnwest1979 · Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:02 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
Horizon had dropped.

Add Twin Falls, Jackson Hole, Grand Junction.

BoeingGuy · Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:42 pm

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 15):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
Horizon had dropped.

Add Twin Falls, Jackson Hole, Grand Junction.

I forgot Twin Falls, but I'm not aware that QX ever did JAC or GJT. When and where did they fly there?

mtnwest1979 · Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:51 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
I forgot Twin Falls, but I'm not aware that QX ever did JAC or GJT. When and where did they fly there?

They flew to JAC as a tag on with the Do 328 SEA-BZN-JAC, then swtiched to a BOI-JAC run for a very short time. SO early mid 90s I guess.
GJT was online after acquisition of Transwestern Airlines in 1983. Didn't stay on long.

They also did LAX SJC OAK DEN as well, but I don't know if they do some still as AS flights now.
Prince George, BC was flown for a short time as well not too long ago.
Also Pendleton,OR adds to list.

http://www.departedflights.com/QXBOIhub.html

Added BOI hub info.

[Edited 2016-04-13 09:36:42]

ASFlyer · Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:56 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
I forgot Twin Falls, but I'm not aware that QX ever did JAC or GJT. When and where did they fly there?

Also, Prince George, BC. They flew SEA-YXS very briefly within the last 8-10 years.

peanuts · Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:01 pm

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
1 - Why not just make it all AS and eliminate the differences

You have Alaska Air Group. Every company needs leverage. The flexibility without the hassle. QX is that to the Alaska Air Group.

Quoting flybynight (Thread starter):
3 - Why doesn't AS use Horizon's popular beer/wine service (one drink for free)? I know it is popular on those afternoon flights back to SEA!!

I've always perceived the beer/wine service on QX as a deal sweetener. Kind of like: "Hey, we know this isn't an AS plane, it's noisy as hell, have a drink on us..."

flybynight · Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:12 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 19):
I've always perceived the beer/wine service on QX as a deal sweetener. Kind of like: "Hey, we know this isn't an AS plane, it's noisy as hell, have a drink on us..."

What's interesting is what Alaska was saying on a Facebook reply on the beer and wine...with the 175's the beer and wine is going away. I was surprised at this. At the end of the day I don't really care if it does, but it something that makes Horizon unique and something its loyal fliers look forward to.

flybynight · Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:12 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 19):
You have Alaska Air Group. Every company needs leverage. The flexibility without the hassle. QX is that to the Alaska Air Group

Makes sense

32andBelow · Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:13 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 11):

I'm sure the ax pi

Quoting peanuts (Reply 19):
I've always perceived the beer/wine service on QX as a deal sweetener. Kind of like: "Hey, we know this isn't an AS plane, it's noisy as hell, have a drink on us..."

They also do it on OO E175s...

flybynight · Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:15 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 22):
They also do it on OO E175s...

But according to their Facebook reply they won't on the new 175's. I was surprised to read this.

flashmeister · Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:43 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 23):
But according to their Facebook reply they won't on the new 175's. I was surprised to read this.

Yeah, I was disappointed too... but if they're launching a new premium economy product, I can see where they might consider the beer/wine service an incentive to upgrade.

flybynight · Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:54 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 24):
Yeah, I was disappointed too... but if they're launching a new premium economy product, I can see where they might consider the beer/wine service an incentive to upgrade.

For some reason I am betting they will keep the wine/beer service. It is such a big part of what makes Horizon unique.

Unless it is big money drain for them.

doug_or · Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:39 pm

Quoting flybynight (Reply 25):
For some reason I am betting they will keep the wine/beer service. It is such a big part of what makes Horizon unique.

I'll take that bet. OO offers free beer and wine on their all coach CR7 flights but charges in coach on the 175. QX 175s will be exactly the same config as a OO. The dividing line is all coach/mixed cabin, not operating carrier.

n7371f · Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:17 pm

Quoting doug_or (Reply 1):
7 still operate for Alaska with OO, the rest were sold off to other buyers.

Air Group still is on hook for the lease. They're subleased to SkyWest and ExpressJet. Several of them, 4 or 5, are at SEA everyday in DL colors competing against AS/QX.

flashmeister · Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:12 pm

Quoting doug_or (Reply 26):
The dividing line is all coach/mixed cabin, not operating carrier.

Yes, this indeed the dividing line, but IMHO it's not a smart one. People shouldn't be expected to know whether it's a single-class cabin if they're picking their flights and beer/wine is important for them. It might make sense to AS, but I don't think it's going to be all that clear to most of their customers, and will instead come off as having a very inconsistent product.

doug_or · Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:25 pm

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 28):
It might make sense to AS, but I don't think it's going to be all that clear to most of their customers, and will instead come off as having a very inconsistent product.

Is it any more or less clear than having to know if a flight is operated by AS/QX/OO? The free beer and wine on some flights has always been a service inconsistency. The on board experience on a 175 is closer to a mainline 737 than it is a QX Q400, so it makes sense for the service profile to be the same. Don't get me wrong, I'd prefer more free stuff and better service, but I think its hard to logically justify.

flashmeister · Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting doug_or (Reply 29):
Is it any more or less clear than having to know if a flight is operated by AS/QX/OO? The free beer and wine on some flights has always been a service inconsistency.

Agreed, but let's not forget that AS is about to undertake introducing itself to new customers via the VX transition. If they hope to keep some of that business, they have to look at their product amenities and consistency. Offering craft beer is kind of a cool differentiator that could help, but it won't mean a thing if people find it inconsistent.

ericm2031 · Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:45 am

Quoting flybynight (Reply 23):
But according to their Facebook reply they won't on the new 175's. I was surprised to read this.

Their website also states it is not available on OO E175s. I think they should adopt a distance based threshold for offering it for free than just basing it on number of classes. I can see not doing it on the long flights back east, but they should keep it on their intra-west coast flights. Differentiates their service from DL, UA, WN, and AA

Passedv1 · Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:50 pm

Quoting JBo (Reply 11):

While it would be theoretically possible to combine Horizon's operations into Alaska's operating certificate, there are several significant hurdles to consider:

- Pilot unions/payscales: since the QX fleet is smaller, I would think it'd be theoretically possible to simply amend the QX payscale to the AS payscale as-is, but I doubt the two unions would want to make it that easy.
- F/A unions/payscales: Assuming that F/A payscales are also based on the airframe (I'm honestly not familiar), the same scenario arsies. If payscales aren't based on aircraft, but simply on seniority, this could be an even bigger headache.
- Mechanics: I imagine QX and AS have separate MX teams and unions, so again, we'd have combination headaches.

I don't think it's impossible to combine QX and AS into a single operation, but there would be a LOT of union hurdles to overcome. If they were able to overcome those hurdles, they could possibly eliminate some administrative overhead by only having one management team, one dispatch crew, etc.

It is not the unions that prevent the integration it is the companies. While seniority integration is a huge headache it is not insurmountable. You are right in that you could just amend the pay scales, however, the difference doesn't end there, more importantly, AS would have to provide the Horizon pilots with better medical benefits, better retirement, and better work-rules...and that's just not happening.

flybynight · Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:41 pm

Quoting doug_or (Reply 26):
I'll take that bet. OO offers free beer and wine on their all coach CR7 flights but charges in coach on the 175. QX 175s will be exactly the same config as a OO. The dividing line is all coach/mixed cabin, not operating carrier.

I am sure you are right.
Well, the Q400's will probably stay on GEG flights for a while