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jumbojet
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:40 am

It should rightly get moved to DL. They can commence service pretty much immediately. With AA, we still have NO idea (actually more importantly, the flying public still has no idea) when and if they will ever start LAX-PEK service.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 114
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:10 pm

Why should it get moved when MU is government controlled and the government is not willing to give AA viable slots so it could benefit MU and DL which the Chinese government has a stake in MU?

Seems like a conflict of interest to me.
 
commavia
Topic Author
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:28 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Well Delta has objected to AA's start-up delay request.

Delta says the proposed AA delay serves no public benefit, and says the authority should be transferred immediately to DL who is ready to commence without any delays.
DL says its ready, able and willing to inaugurate service and has the ability to obtain the required slots that AA claims it cannot. Delta says its China partner MU has pledged assist with DL initiating the service including offering slots times that will make LAX-PEK attractive to consumers.


No big surprise - I think it was pretty much a foregone conclusion that Delta would object, given the history.

That said, it will be interesting to see how this plays out. As already mentioned by others - in a way, Delta's pronouncement that it can swap slots with its partner in order to facilitate this route arguably serves to prove AA's broader point in the route case that Delta is still at a competitive advantage in the U.S.-China market compared to AA given said partnerships, and thus AA is needed to inject new competition between the western U.S. and PEK.

Whether any of us agree or disagree with it, I suspect AA's response is going to be something along the lines of:

1) "Yes, we completely agree that Delta has more immediate options to operate nonstop LAX-PEK than we do given its 'wasted' PVG-NRT flight and its extensive partnerships with two of China's three main carriers, thus making precisely our earlier point that AA's competitive presence is desperately needed in this market"
2) "We're happy for Delta that its Chinese-government-owned partner airline is willing to swap slots in order to help Delta further consolidate its competitive position in the U.S.-China market, and we wish the Chinese government would give AA that same right to compete"
 
FSDan
Posts: 1379
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:46 pm

I agree that DL has a right to complain. They did, after all, apply for the LAX-PEK authority first, and now it has been awarded to an airline that isn't in a position to fly the route within the bounds of the award, while DL probably could have made it work. That has to be frustrating. I'm not just saying that because I like DL - I also agree that AA had the right to complain when DL squatted on poorly timed HND slots.

That said, if the award was switched to DL I do wonder how quickly they would be able to start it. Their international fleet will be stretched thin this summer, although I think there is enough slack in the 77L fleet to pick this up if they needed to...
This is my signature until I think of a better one.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1054
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:47 pm

mercure1 wrote:

What I find more interesting is that one day DL complains about foreign airlines with government support, but next day willing to make a deal with another government supported airlines.
Its convenient with China but not Middle East it seems for DL.


Right? Just like blaming the ME3 for 9-11 yet partnering with SV. Can you get more hypocritical than that? Do they think we're really that stupid? (yes) Like our current government, what a sick joke.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:02 pm

9w748capt wrote:
mercure1 wrote:

What I find more interesting is that one day DL complains about foreign airlines with government support, but next day willing to make a deal with another government supported airlines.
Its convenient with China but not Middle East it seems for DL.


Right? Just like blaming the ME3 for 9-11 yet partnering with SV. Can you get more hypocritical than that? Do they think we're really that stupid? (yes) Like our current government, what a sick joke.



Your twisting words guy. Why don't you show me, and the rest of the Anet community where it was exactly said that DL blamed the ME3 for 9-11.
 
ldvaviation
Posts: 1146
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:14 pm

jumbojet wrote:
It should rightly get moved to DL. They can commence service pretty much immediately. With AA, we still have NO idea (actually more importantly, the flying public still has no idea) when and if they will ever start LAX-PEK service.


The DOT did not award the route on the basis of any claim that AA could acquire slots more easily than Delta.

Delta's claim therefore that it can acquire the slots more easily is irrelevant.

It would only become relevant if AA were found to be willfully delaying the start of the flight. It is not.
 
BroadwayLimited
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:39 pm

If politics helps at all, (and these days I honestly have no idea), don't forget, AA did not attend the Trump White House meeting. Delta did. Not saying that will or will not have anything to do with how this all plays out, just an observation.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2059
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 4:48 pm

ldvaviation wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
It should rightly get moved to DL. They can commence service pretty much immediately. With AA, we still have NO idea (actually more importantly, the flying public still has no idea) when and if they will ever start LAX-PEK service.


The DOT did not award the route on the basis of any claim that AA could acquire slots more easily than Delta.

Delta's claim therefore that it can acquire the slots more easily is irrelevant.

It would only become relevant if AA were found to be willfully delaying the start of the flight. It is not.


So then the flying public ultimately are the ones that get screwed since AA claims they cant get the slots and timing on the China end. DL can. Does the public now have to wait until AA gets the slot times they desire on the China end? That could take another year or two, or more.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:30 pm

justplanenutz wrote:
Could be a low stakes opportunity to send "Jina" a message that there is a new sheriff in town . . .I immediately thought that they are hoping to benefit from at least the perception that Trump will be more confrontational.

The concept of "saving face" is a STRONGLY held value in many east Asian cultures, and the Chinese are no exception. Trump might be getting more than he bargained for if trying to be more confrontational in an area where they can easily retaliate in like fashion.


grbauc wrote:
MU should help AA then.

Why? How's that in their interest, when AA is not their partner nor equity investor? They aren't a charity.


grbauc wrote:
DL just needs to wait its time

You do realize that this is a business move by those involved, and not children waiting for a turn on the swingset....


grbauc wrote:
There not serving public interest with there whining

There's also no public interest in letting an airline who can't produce, bid its time. That's AA's interest, not the flying public's.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
commavia
Topic Author
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:36 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
There's also no public interest in letting an airline who can't produce, bid its time. That's AA's interest, not the flying public's.


I fully understand and appreciate that point, but let's all be honest - everyone, including Delta, is obviously "playing to the cameras" here. In AA's case, it is quite easy to simply respond to Delta's complaints by saying, in essence, "the American public's interest isn't being served by the Chinese government protecting a Chinese state-owned airline, and so it's time the Chinese government let AA have slots at PEK to fly to LAX." Setting aside whether any of us like or dislike, agree or disagree, with that summation - I think it's fairly obvious that this will be basically what AA says back.

So we'll see how it plays in D.C. If precedent is any guide, the DOT has in the past shown flexibility when airlines have been unable to get slots in Asia - AA at HND and United at PVG being the most obvious/recent examples that readily come to mind.
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 10:24 pm

DL's usual whining won't help them trying to grab AA's rights to LAX-PEK. If DL is so certain they could start LAX-PEK quicker than AA, then they should drop NRT-PVG and launch LAX-PEK, using the help they claim from MU to receive proper slot times. While DL has all but retreated from NRT, they are still operating an obsolete NRT-PVG slot that UA dropped years ago. And its not like US passengers are the primary beneficiaries of that slot either. AA's application for LAX-PEK notes that most of the traffic on DL's NRT-PVG flight is between TYO and SHA.
 
jbs2886
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:31 pm

DeSpringbokke wrote:
DL's usual whining won't help them trying to grab AA's rights to LAX-PEK. If DL is so certain they could start LAX-PEK quicker than AA, then they should drop NRT-PVG and launch LAX-PEK, using the help they claim from MU to receive proper slot times. While DL has all but retreated from NRT, they are still operating an obsolete NRT-PVG slot that UA dropped years ago. And its not like US passengers are the primary beneficiaries of that slot either. AA's application for LAX-PEK notes that most of the traffic on DL's NRT-PVG flight is between TYO and SHA.


How is NRT-PVG obsolete? Just because UA dropped it? In addition, being able to start a route more quickly doesn't mean they should drop another route to do so. It would be a blood bath with 2 carriers entering LAX-PEK and I doubt Delta wants to sustain those losses.
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:11 am

jumbojet wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
mercure1 wrote:

What I find more interesting is that one day DL complains about foreign airlines with government support, but next day willing to make a deal with another government supported airlines.
Its convenient with China but not Middle East it seems for DL.


Right? Just like blaming the ME3 for 9-11 yet partnering with SV. Can you get more hypocritical than that? Do they think we're really that stupid? (yes) Like our current government, what a sick joke.



Your twisting words guy. Why don't you show me, and the rest of the Anet community where it was exactly said that DL blamed the ME3 for 9-11.


Would be happy to! 5 seconds of Google searching: http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/18/news/co ... logy-9-11/
 
DeSpringbokke
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:13 am

jbs2886 wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
How is NRT-PVG obsolete? Just because UA dropped it? In addition, being able to start a route more quickly doesn't mean they should drop another route to do so. It would be a blood bath with 2 carriers entering LAX-PEK and I doubt Delta wants to sustain those losses.


Its a fifth freedom flight from another time where in order to fly to Asia, one usually transferred at NRT. Incidentally, Northwest Orient was the first US carrier to have nonstops to both PEK and PVG, from DTW, albeit on a less than weekly basis. Both were discontinued soon after 9/11. UA dropped both NRT-PEK/PVG back in 2000 after an agreement to transfer both slots to SFO in order to operate SFO-PEK/PVG. It wasn't until about ten years ago in which there were several nonstops from the mainland US to PEK/PVG. With smaller, more fuel efficient aircraft being able to operate nonstops to the Far East, having a connecting hub at NRT makes little sense. This is exacerbated by the lack of a partner at NRT for Delta. Had Delta been able to steal away JAL from OneWorld and entered into a JV with JAL, we'd be having a much different conversation today.

LAX-PEK is the second largest route out of LAX where one airline has a monopoly. (LAX-MNL is the largest but no airline other than PAL will operate it due to trash yields.) The market is quite large and growing at a healthy clip, according to a 2012 Brookings Institute study. Its almost seven times larger than the other prospective route where Delta would use this route authority, ATL-PVG. While LAX-PEK could potentially be a major blood bath for both AA and DL, its far more viable for Delta to compete with Air China and AA on LAX-PEK than attempt ATL-PVG, again, due to lengthy distance and need for either the 77L or A350 to operate it whereas LAX-PEK is planned to be operated by the 777-200ER. So where would Delta rather lose money, ATL-PVG or LAX-PEK. Again, Delta isn't moving heaven and earth to T2/T3 and renovate the space to add more gates for nothing. While Delta is still committed to SEA as a Trans-Pac hub, the beyond max capacity of the IAF until expansion is complete in 2020 at the earliest isn't helping. Those A350-900s will have to go somewhere besides DTW-Asia. Makes much more sense having a A350-900 operate on a competitive, high capacity LAX-PEK route than an ultra long haul monopoly, relatively thin ATL-PVG route. Delta is not going to back down from this fight. For cases like these they never give up and give in.
 
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N717TW
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:25 pm

grbauc wrote:

I can't stand these back n forths.. From DL or anyone else. MU should help AA then. Delta is acknowledging that its a issue to get slots and that they alone can get them with special help DL just needs to wait its time if AA doesn't get them after a reasonable time then they should move forward. There not serving public interest with there whining


Why? Although there isn't a merger-like immunized joint-venture between MU and DL, they are still strong partners and can share between each other. AA worked closely with BA before the JV and does now with QF despite the lack of JV. Plus MU is centered around Shanghai not PEK, so helping DL doesn't impact MU negatively but also only encourages DL to repay when the time is right. PEK is really a hub for CA with small hub for CZ. Therefore CA, CZ and MU all have a less than zero interest (a negative interest in fact) to help AA. The bigger DL story is the lack of talk around CZ. One would think that CZ would like DL to get the route so that they can use the LAX-PEK flight to feed their PEK operations and give CA some competition.

BUTI'm surprised that nobody is pointing out that AA must be generally happy with the "lack of slots" and ability to request a delay. I suspect in the end, despite the noise, that the DOT won't strip AA of the authority. Remember AA didn't necessarily want the route right now. They bid for the slots only because DL did so first. While many on this forum believed AA had PEK on the list, DL was the first mover and clearly was pushing AA to apply and start service earlier than they wanted. Long thin int'l routes, particularly ones without two end feed, tend to lose money in their first 18 months after launch. AA has started a lot of TPAC routes from LAX and DFW in the past year and were probably looking to make this the next wave. Add in crappy slot times--par for the course at PEK (both DL and AA have had to work through this on their DTW and ORD routes respectively)--that can cause AA to allocate more than 2 frames and operate at non-peak/lower-yeiding times and the flight could be a real dumpster fire. Well played response by AA to DL.
 
winginit
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:42 pm

grbauc wrote:
MU should help AA then.


Why on earth would they do that?
 
B747forever
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:54 pm

If the Chinese government is that protective, why will they allow MU to give slots to DL which will end the other government supported company, CA's monopoly on the route?
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
DL747400
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sat Feb 25, 2017 11:39 pm

9w748capt wrote:
mercure1 wrote:

Just like blaming the ME3 for 9-11 yet partnering with SV. Can you get more hypocritical than that?


Oh cool the drama already. SV is a SkyTeam member and a Group 2 SkyMiles partner. Nothing more. No codeshares and no JV. And for what it's worth, it was rumored that DL strenuously objected to JV being allowed to joint SkyTeam. Clearly they were not able to prevent it. So at most, DL is tolerating them under duress.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

All posts reflect my opinions, not those of my employer or any other company.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:09 am

U.S. Airlines don't want a free market - let's say an auction - in slots or route authorities. They have sued to stop auctions in the past.

http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20 ... 274387227/

So, we have a politicized process driven by lawyers and lobbyists who submit comments - and sometimes silly, silly arguments - as part of a public docket to the Department of Transportation. The DOT is charged with maximizing public benefits, not maximizing corporate profits (or economic efficiency).
 
jumbojet
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Feb 26, 2017 12:30 am

9w748capt wrote:
jumbojet wrote:
9w748capt wrote:

Right? Just like blaming the ME3 for 9-11 yet partnering with SV. Can you get more hypocritical than that? Do they think we're really that stupid? (yes) Like our current government, what a sick joke.



Your twisting words guy. Why don't you show me, and the rest of the Anet community where it was exactly said that DL blamed the ME3 for 9-11.


Would be happy to! 5 seconds of Google searching: http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/18/news/co ... logy-9-11/


Congratulations, you know how to use google search.

Did you even bother to read the article? I did, and nowhere did DL specifically make mention of the ME3 having anything to do with 9-11. Not surprisingly, people took what DL said way out of context and made up what they wanted to believe. Please read, or listen to, the actual text or audio from Delta and then and only then,, please quote me what Delta said that directly links the ME3 to 9-11. However, because DL always takes the high road, they apologized. Was it really necessary? I don't think so. I guess for the ultra sensitive people of the world, they did. Good for them.
 
grbauc
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Sun Feb 26, 2017 3:36 am

winginit wrote:
grbauc wrote:
MU should help AA then.


Why on earth would they do that?


I don't think they should
I was trying to highlight the special relationship it takes to get Slots.
 
ldvaviation
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon Feb 27, 2017 6:10 pm

jumbojet wrote:
So then the flying public ultimately are the ones that get screwed since AA claims they cant get the slots and timing on the China end. DL can. Does the public now have to wait until AA gets the slot times they desire on the China end? That could take another year or two, or more.


The public interest is better served by creating more competition in the west cost to PEK market among US airlines. That is what the DOT concluded.

If slots had any relevance to the proceedings, one would think that Delta would have made a claim about slots when it mattered, during the route case. Delta certainly wasn't shy about telling the DOT about all the beyond flights out of PEK on their Chinese partners. I suppose even Delta acknowledged at some level how immaterial and irrelevant such a claim would be in the eyes of the DOT.

It is also quite disingenuous of Delta to go after AA with this argument when United has gone much longer without slots to start another limited authority Chinese route. If clear thinking prevails, I doubt the DOT wants to put all awards that have difficult obtaining slots in question when there is no evidence that the difficulty is willful or intentional.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:07 pm

And DOT is out today with its decision.

Department is offering AA a 6-month startup extension until September 16, 2017, not the 1-year delay carrier sought.
DOT also denied and dismissed Delta request to have the AA authority revoked and reallocated.

Will be interesting what AA does, though I suspect they will be back for an additional extension as the W17 scheduling season slots dont commence till Oct 29th, which is the first allocation season AA can formally participate in based on timing.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jfk777
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:54 am

AA flies daily from DFW & ORD, so they have two daily flights to Peking. What would happen if they split some of those frequencies with LAX, so they would fly say four times a week from LAX plus 5 times weekly from each DFW and ORD. Are the slots at PEK assigned only to their current flights or can they be used for other AA flights like Los Angeles.
 
winginit
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:59 am

jfk777 wrote:
AA flies daily from DFW & ORD, so they have two daily flights to Peking. What would happen if they split some of those frequencies with LAX, so they would fly say four times a week from LAX plus 5 times weekly from each DFW and ORD. Are the slots at PEK assigned only to their current flights or can they be used for other AA flights like Los Angeles.


It depends on how they acquired those DFW and ORD slots. Whether they bought them outright from another carrier or swapped for them, it's possible if not likely that there are contractual stipulations that lay out restrictions around the services they can be used for.
 
jfk777
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:11 am

In 2008 when Heathrow opened up many airlines and alliances purchased, swapped and loaned slots. Is AA doing "all it can do" to get a slots loaned or sold or leased to them ? Cathay, JAL, or Qantas can't spare one ? AA once got creative with Air China with an LHR slot they needed, maybe its time to get creative with any Chinese airline needing a Heathrow solution. AA has many LHR slots which could be used to solve their current LAX to PEK problem with an airline from any country with a PEK slot to spare. Malaysia Air must have a slot to loan to AA ?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:42 am

DeSpringbokke wrote:
due to lengthy distance and need for either the 77L or A350 to operate it whereas LAX-PEK is planned to be operated by the 777-200ER.

DL's 656K 772ERs can do ATL-PVG if needed. It wouldn't even be the longest route they've been scheduled on.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
grbauc
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:51 am

LAXintl wrote:
And DOT is out today with its decision.

Department is offering AA a 6-month startup extension until September 16, 2017, not the 1-year delay carrier sought.
DOT also denied and dismissed Delta request to have the AA authority revoked and reallocated.

Will be interesting what AA does, though I suspect they will be back for an additional extension as the W17 scheduling season slots dont commence till Oct 29th, which is the first allocation season AA can formally participate in based on timing.



why would they not give them (DOT) at least a extension long enough to get them to see what happens at the W17 allocation. This is so annoying why they would do such a short sighted motion. Do they not understand the process?
 
HeeseokKoo
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:10 am

grbauc wrote:
why would they not give them (DOT) at least a extension long enough to get them to see what happens at the W17 allocation. This is so annoying why they would do such a short sighted motion. Do they not understand the process?

I guess that's because it's not totally impossible. For instance, since early morning PEK slots are still available (1AM-6AM), AA could do this:

ORD-PEK 1700-2000+1 (no change)
PEK-ORD 0555-0530 (like AA did in 2010... except it's one hour earlier)

LAX-PEK 0100-0500+1 (not too bad)
PEK-LAX 1000-0600 (use current ORD slot)

AA would do this in 2010 but now there are too much capacity and AA won't take the risk. When DOT accepted the applications, DOT should have asked to both DL and AA if willing to operate using whatever available slots, 1AM-6AM, or at least what was the plan B, in case airlines cannot get a properly timed slot.
 
DeSpringbokke
Posts: 244
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:45 am

LAX772LR wrote:
DeSpringbokke wrote:
due to lengthy distance and need for either the 77L or A350 to operate it whereas LAX-PEK is planned to be operated by the 777-200ER.

DL's 656K 772ERs can do ATL-PVG if needed. It wouldn't even be the longest route they've been scheduled on.


I believe they were upgraded to 656 ton MTOW to operate JFK-BOM. Delta has been pretty consistent of operating 77Ls on their longest 777 routes and the 77ERs handle the shorter 777 routes. Helps there are only eight of them. ATL-ICN would likely go to a 77ER if ATL-PVG is launched without the A350-900 in the fleet.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:45 am

DeSpringbokke wrote:
I believe they were upgraded to 656 ton MTOW to operate JFK-BOM.

.....that's thousand pounds.

656 tonnes would be a fully loaded A380 + a dozen elephants strapped on top of it. ;)


DeSpringbokke wrote:
Delta has been pretty consistent of operating 77Ls on their longest 777 routes and the 77ERs handle the shorter 777 routes. Helps there are only eight of them. ATL-ICN would likely go to a 77ER if ATL-PVG is launched without the A350-900 in the fleet.

Indeed, but that doesn't exactly refute what I just said, which is that the 77E can fly the route if need be.
The only segment DL has that the 77E cannot fly nonstop with a profit-potential payload, is JNB-ATL.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:27 pm

grbauc wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
why would they not give them (DOT) at least a extension long enough to get them to see what happens at the W17 allocation. This is so annoying why they would do such a short sighted motion. Do they not understand the process?


The 1+ year start up delay AA asked for was rather unprecedented and DOT said so in its decision. Even United with its well documented problems of launching the 2nd SFO-PVG asked and received shorter deferral periods.

Ultimately, the DOT wants to keep the heat on the carrier, and wants AA to keep diligently working towards utilizing the slots. AA always has the opportunity to seek additional start-up delays, though obviously Delta and others can argue against such grant.

Personally I feel AA should bite the bullet and accept whatever slots in can even if during overnight hours and get the flight going as they did with ORD-PEK flight back in the day, and use subsequent IATA scheduling seasons to improve the timing closer to its preferred and optimal times.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jfk777
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:35 pm

LAXintl wrote:
grbauc wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
why would they not give them (DOT) at least a extension long enough to get them to see what happens at the W17 allocation. This is so annoying why they would do such a short sighted motion. Do they not understand the process?


The 1+ year start up delay AA asked for was rather unprecedented and DOT said so in its decision. Even United with its well documented problems of launching the 2nd SFO-PVG asked and received shorter deferral periods.

Ultimately, the DOT wants to keep the heat on the carrier, and wants AA to keep diligently working towards utilizing the slots. AA always has the opportunity to seek additional start-up delays, though obviously Delta and others can argue against such grant.

Personally I feel AA should bite the bullet and accept whatever slots in can even if during overnight hours and get the flight going as they did with ORD-PEK flight back in the day, and use subsequent IATA scheduling seasons to improve the timing closer to its preferred and optimal times.


AA should bight the bullet and get the 787 airborne to Peking from LAX even if its the worst slot at the PEK just to be in the market. Peking plus Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Auckland and Sydney give AA a nice Asia Pacific presence at LAX.
 
grbauc
Posts: 814
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 9:05 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Tue Mar 14, 2017 9:26 pm

LAXintl wrote:
grbauc wrote:
LAXintl wrote:
why would they not give them (DOT) at least a extension long enough to get them to see what happens at the W17 allocation. This is so annoying why they would do such a short sighted motion. Do they not understand the process?


The 1+ year start up delay AA asked for was rather unprecedented and DOT said so in its decision. Even United with its well documented problems of launching the 2nd SFO-PVG asked and received shorter deferral periods.

Ultimately, the DOT wants to keep the heat on the carrier, and wants AA to keep diligently working towards utilizing the slots. AA always has the opportunity to seek additional start-up delays, though obviously Delta and others can argue against such grant.

Personally I feel AA should bite the bullet and accept whatever slots in can even if during overnight hours and get the flight going as they did with ORD-PEK flight back in the day, and use subsequent IATA scheduling seasons to improve the timing closer to its preferred and optimal times.


Thank you that makes sense. I like late night or early morning 1am departures From Lax that way I can work the same day I leave on. Thanks for the reply I now agree with you AA should bite the bullet and move them to better times they like with time.
 
winginit
Posts: 1128
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Mar 16, 2017 7:03 pm

jfk777 wrote:
AA should bight the bullet and get the 787 airborne to Peking from LAX even if its the worst slot at the PEK just to be in the market. Peking plus Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Auckland and Sydney give AA a nice Asia Pacific presence at LAX.


A 'nice' Asia Pacific presence at LAX isn't so nice if it's bleeding millions of dollars every year... will an AA TPAC hub out of LAX ever be profitable?
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:18 pm

winginit wrote:
A 'nice' Asia Pacific presence at LAX isn't so nice if it's bleeding millions of dollars every year... will an AA TPAC hub out of LAX ever be profitable?


I doubt profitability is primary importance for AA at all.

AA has decades has lost or been only marginally profitable in its Pacific entity. However as then CEO Horton stated its a strategic imperative AA grows in the region in order for it to properly compete with DL and UA as a US global airline. AA cant be termed a global US airline and earn things like some corporate accounts without sufficient routes across the Pacific.

With fact that LAX is the largest Asia-Pacific O&D market, its just as well AA further build on its local strength here versus trying to develop the same type of TPAC flying from other more risky hubs like ORD for example.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jfk777
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:59 pm

winginit wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
AA should bight the bullet and get the 787 airborne to Peking from LAX even if its the worst slot at the PEK just to be in the market. Peking plus Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Auckland and Sydney give AA a nice Asia Pacific presence at LAX.


A 'nice' Asia Pacific presence at LAX isn't so nice if it's bleeding millions of dollars every year... will an AA TPAC hub out of LAX ever be profitable?


With all the 787 AA flies to Asia there is a problem if they don't make money. The 777 when they still had First Class were losers. China is probably where AA does make a profit since the Chinese airlines are not favored the way destinations flown by JAL, ANA, Cathay and Singapore Airlines are. Hong Kong is probably marginal but has to be served to have a presence in Asia. Sydney is very competitive with Virgin Australia, Delta, United and Qantas all flying LAX to Sydney, so who knows. AA needs a west coast Gateway to the Pacific so by default it became LAX since UA owns SFO and Delta owns SEA.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:04 pm

jfk777 wrote:


With all the 787 AA flies to Asia there is a problem if they don't make money.[/quote]

Profit = revenues - costs. What does AA get for TPAC RASM vs. DL and UA?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:05 pm

jfk777 wrote:

With all the 787 AA flies to Asia there is a problem if they don't make money.


Profit = revenues - costs. What does AA get for TPAC RASM vs. DL and UA?
 
Flighty
Posts: 8838
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:08 pm

jfk777 wrote:
winginit wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
AA should bight the bullet and get the 787 airborne to Peking from LAX even if its the worst slot at the PEK just to be in the market. Peking plus Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Auckland and Sydney give AA a nice Asia Pacific presence at LAX.


A 'nice' Asia Pacific presence at LAX isn't so nice if it's bleeding millions of dollars every year... will an AA TPAC hub out of LAX ever be profitable?


With all the 787 AA flies to Asia there is a problem if they don't make money. The 777 when they still had First Class were losers. China is probably where AA does make a profit since the Chinese airlines are not favored the way destinations flown by JAL, ANA, Cathay and Singapore Airlines are. Hong Kong is probably marginal but has to be served to have a presence in Asia. Sydney is very competitive with Virgin Australia, Delta, United and Qantas all flying LAX to Sydney, so who knows. AA needs a west coast Gateway to the Pacific so by default it became LAX since UA owns SFO and Delta owns SEA.


I don't see how anybody is making money to China or India with fares the way they are. $800 RT to Mumbai next week.

I also saw $700 to Beijing and that's $375 for the fare, $325 for taxes. These are normal fares for 9 months out of the year now. Just anecdotal, but I write this because I really can't find a counter-narrative where these markets aren't terrible. But would be glad to hear one.
 
Sydscott
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:38 pm

jfk777 wrote:
winginit wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
AA should bight the bullet and get the 787 airborne to Peking from LAX even if its the worst slot at the PEK just to be in the market. Peking plus Shanghai, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Auckland and Sydney give AA a nice Asia Pacific presence at LAX.


A 'nice' Asia Pacific presence at LAX isn't so nice if it's bleeding millions of dollars every year... will an AA TPAC hub out of LAX ever be profitable?


With all the 787 AA flies to Asia there is a problem if they don't make money. The 777 when they still had First Class were losers. China is probably where AA does make a profit since the Chinese airlines are not favored the way destinations flown by JAL, ANA, Cathay and Singapore Airlines are. Hong Kong is probably marginal but has to be served to have a presence in Asia. Sydney is very competitive with Virgin Australia, Delta, United and Qantas all flying LAX to Sydney, so who knows. AA needs a west coast Gateway to the Pacific so by default it became LAX since UA owns SFO and Delta owns SEA.


If we break that down for a second:

China - no alliance Partners for feed and anecdotally low fares. From DFW I'd be surprised if they weren't making money but ORD and LAX are probably marginal to loss making given competition.
Japan - AA has an alliance with JAL so I'd be more than surprised if they weren't making money overall out of Japan.
Hong Kong - they'd probably by losing money for now but overall CX provides significant feed to AA at AA's gateway cities. So overall if you combine CX and AA's ops in Hong Kong its hopefully neutral to mildly positive.
Korea - they only serve DFW-ICN and you'd presume they're making money on it.
Australia - hard to tell. If they got the Alliance up with QF they'd be making money out of it but given they don't have that the AA service in their own right are probably breakeven. They still have the benefit of the feed QF puts onto their network out at LAX and DFW so you'd expect, overall, they'd be making money.
New Zealand - same as Australia.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 6:10 pm

Little update buried in another regulatory filing.

American is making progress in China with respect to its efforts to obtain commercially viable slots at Beijing Capital International Airport for its Los Angeles-Beijing service. Though the matter is not fully resolved, sufficient progress has been made, and American anticipates that it will secure the necessary PEK slots to inaugurate its Los Angeles-Beijing service later this year.


So sounds like IATA W17 schedule season start (late October) is likely..
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
bzcat
Posts: 141
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 11:34 pm

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 6:14 pm

LAXintl wrote:
Little update buried in another regulatory filing.

American is making progress in China with respect to its efforts to obtain commercially viable slots at Beijing Capital International Airport for its Los Angeles-Beijing service. Though the matter is not fully resolved, sufficient progress has been made, and American anticipates that it will secure the necessary PEK slots to inaugurate its Los Angeles-Beijing service later this year.


So sounds like IATA W17 schedule season start (late October) is likely..


Wonder if AA's new friends at CZ helped grease the wheel a little for a pair of slots?
 
commavia
Topic Author
Posts: 11390
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 6:31 pm

LAXintl wrote:
So sounds like IATA W17 schedule season start (late October) is likely..


Cool - hope we see an official start date soon.

bzcat wrote:
Wonder if AA's new friends at CZ helped grease the wheel a little for a pair of slots?


I suspect that's exactly what is happening.
 
jfk777
Posts: 6277
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 6:59 pm

Is there a reason why AA can' t fly 5 weekly DFW - Pekng and 5 weekly ORD to PEK so they can start 4 weekly LAX to PEK ? SO AA wouls use the 14 weekly slots they have for three cities.
 
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Polot
Posts: 7300
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Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 7:06 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Is there a reason why AA can' t fly 5 weekly DFW - Pekng and 5 weekly ORD to PEK so they can start 4 weekly LAX to PEK ? SO AA wouls use the 14 weekly slots they have for three cities.

Because then AA wouldn't be using 2x weekly DFW-PEK and 2x weekly ORD-PEK frequencies that they have been awarded, and can lose them to another airline. DL, for example, would say look AA isn't using 7 of their frequencies (2x DFW, 2x ORD, 3x LAX), give them to us.

Easier to get a start up extension for a new route award than try and get temporary exemptions on three of your routes two of which were previously fully utilized.
 
IPFreely
Posts: 1575
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2006 8:26 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 8:08 pm

BroadwayLimited wrote:
If politics helps at all, (and these days I honestly have no idea), don't forget, AA did not attend the Trump White House meeting. Delta did. Not saying that will or will not have anything to do with how this all plays out, just an observation.


While that is true we should also remember that the CEO's of AA, AS, DL, UA, and WN were recently invited to testify before a congressional transportation committee. The CEO's of AA, AS, UA, and WN showed up. The CEO of DL refused to show up and answer questions.
 
jumbojet
Posts: 2059
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 9:28 pm

IPFreely wrote:
BroadwayLimited wrote:
If politics helps at all, (and these days I honestly have no idea), don't forget, AA did not attend the Trump White House meeting. Delta did. Not saying that will or will not have anything to do with how this all plays out, just an observation.


While that is true we should also remember that the CEO's of AA, AS, DL, UA, and WN were recently invited to testify before a congressional transportation committee. The CEO's of AA, AS, UA, and WN showed up. The CEO of DL refused to show up and answer questions.


They had no choice to attend because of the ineptitude of most of those airlines. AA is the one with egg on face for refusing to show up with a one on one with the POTUS. That's the one you don't want to miss. Delta, by all accounts, because of their stellar customer service rankings, must not have felt the need to go before congress to get torn to shreds. Actually, a smart move by Delta.
 
jfk777
Posts: 6277
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: AA Applies For LAX-PEK

Mon May 15, 2017 10:48 pm

Polot wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Is there a reason why AA can' t fly 5 weekly DFW - Pekng and 5 weekly ORD to PEK so they can start 4 weekly LAX to PEK ? SO AA wouls use the 14 weekly slots they have for three cities.

Because then AA wouldn't be using 2x weekly DFW-PEK and 2x weekly ORD-PEK frequencies that they have been awarded, and can lose them to another airline. DL, for example, would say look AA isn't using 7 of their frequencies (2x DFW, 2x ORD, 3x LAX), give them to us.

Easier to get a start up extension for a new route award than try and get temporary exemptions on three of your routes two of which were previously fully utilized.


Airlines reduce weekly frequencies on long international routes during slower times when they fly it daily during high season. Delta would have no grounds to cry "wolf" at the DOT if AA flew 5 DFW to PEK flights. When AA got the Haneda slot for LAX to HND which DL had from SEA to HND Delta flew their Haneda route the bare minimum which was something like once a week or less. Delta wants revenge on AA, what Delta should really do is wonder where all the NW traffic they paid for in the NW merger has gone. Delta is not as dominant to Asia as Northwest Orient was.
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