So Delta bought Convairs and Douglas aircraft ( remember flying on DC 8s) but no B707s. Interesting.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 40): Quoting ozark1 (Reply 34): I thought that all 720 operators except EA switched over to the turbofans and the 720B designation? No, only American converted their 720s. All other non fans, 29 for United, 3 for Aer Lingus, 6 for Braniff, 15 for Eastern, 2 for Pacific Northern, remained pure jets all their life.

And thus had very little demand from other operators when they were retired by their original operators. Many of the early non-turbofan 720s were scrapped after only 10 to 12 years service.

Quoting william (Reply 50): So Delta bought Convairs and Douglas aircraft ( remember flying on DC 8s) but no B707s. Interesting.

DL had been a Douglas customer thruout the late 30s and the 40s, 50s and 60s. They had also been a Convair customer thruout the 50s. Their first Boeing product was in 1969, with the 747-100 and then with the 727s acquired with the NE merger. 727s were ordered from the factor starting in the mid 70s, also.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 51): Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 40): Quoting ozark1 (Reply 34): I thought that all 720 operators except EA switched over to the turbofans and the 720B designation? No, only American converted their 720s. All other non fans, 29 for United, 3 for Aer Lingus, 6 for Braniff, 15 for Eastern, 2 for Pacific Northern, remained pure jets all their life. And thus had very little demand from other operators when they were retired by their original operators. Many of the early non-turbofan 720s were scrapped after only 10 to 12 years service.

UA phased theirs out in 1972, which I believe is about when TW and DL phased out their 880s. Not sure when Eastern retired their 720s.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 53): UA phased theirs out in 1972, which I believe is about when TW and DL phased out their 880s.

DL's last retirement of the 880 was in January '74.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 53): Not sure when Eastern retired their 720s.

They were gradually traded back to Boeing in exchange for 727s. The process started in September 1969. The last one left in June 1970.

I had the pleasure of two flights on the 880. The first was in F on DL from ATL to MCO and the second was from HND to SEL (at the time referred to as Kimpo, now Gimpo) on JAL. The thing I remember about the DL 880 was the wedge shaped foot rest in F. The return flight from MCO to ATL was on a DL DC-8 in F and was much more comfortable and luxurious feeling. The flight on JAL was in coach and was not much different in comfort than any other Y flight. The JAL pilots seeme incapable of keeping the wings level and breakfast was rushed to get to the duty-free sales. The sales effort was incredible with bottles of liquor being tossed from FA to FA between the large merchandise carts in the aisle.

Quoting nikeherc (Reply 56): I had the pleasure of two flights on the 880.

One of my only regrets when I was working for DL was that I never took a ride on an 880 while they were in service.


Missed opportunities

CF-CPI wrote:

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 8):
American had an eastbound 990 transcon SFO-JFK, a redeye I believe, and only eastbound. There was also PHX-JFK. This is just based on what was seen in schedules. If anyone has direct experience, it would be great to hear about.
.

When I was a kid, I flew on a TWA 880 from JFK to PHX. We spent so much time on the ground at JFK, we had to divert to ABQ for fuel. Was cool seeing the line-up of F-100s. The flight back was on a 707 without the tail tip HF antenna.

VirginFlyer wrote:

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 19):
I love the description of the engines:
"The sleek, white power pods of the 880 reach forward under the wings to gulp in air at better than 600mph. Compressed by whirling turbines and joined by a gushing stream of fuel, the resulting combustion rushes out with a reactive force of 11,200 lbs. per engine."
V/F

The General Electric CJ-805-3 was a civilianized versions of the J79, the engine that helped make the F-4 Phantom and F-104 Starfighter great. Definitely built for speed, not economy.

BoeingGuy wrote:

Quoting EyeSky (Reply 21):The 707-020 became the 720 and UA went on to operate a fleet of 29.
As a trivia question, do you know why the 707-020 was renamed the 720?[Edited 2016-03-10 15:04:12]

I understand it was at United's request, as they didn't want people to think they had bought the DC8 instead of the 707 because the 707 wasn't as great (and by the extension the 707-020/720 was an inferior airplane as well).

I flew on a Delta 880 MSY-BWI (then BAL)-MSY, a TWA 880 SFO-ORD, and an American 990 LAX-DFW. nice ride on all in Y, and certainly more comfortable than today's economy class.

timz wrote:

Were AA's 720s the only ones converted to turbofan?

No the Northwest, Continental, and Western 720s were all turbofan

[quote="CF-CPI"]Quoting SmokinL1011 (Reply 14):Well, after watching the promo film by Delta it's clear that the failure to sell wasn't because of its 'whisper quiet' cabin. LOL
The Convair 880/990 soundproofing was actually very good - seemingly a step ahead of the 707/DC8.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24): I remember some very impressive 720B takeoffs while the standard 720 was quite sluggish.
In addition to EA and UA, BN had a handful of straight-turbo 720s as well. They were notoriously under-powered and the joke within BN cockpit crews was : "wouldn't taxi over a wet cigarette butt". Ops out of MEX were described as "hair raising". EA's 720s could not handle HOU-NYC nonstop, which seems like a major restriction. Just speculating, but I bet the 880 could have done it.

it actually did. Delta flew JFK-HOU (and maybe JFK-IAH) regularly with the 880.

klm617 wrote:

timz wrote:

Were AA's 720s the only ones converted to turbofan?

No the Northwest, Continental, and Western 720s were all turbofan

Actually, Western acquired a couple of 720's (non fan model) when they bought Pacific Northern. They continued to operate them at least for a couple of years.

klm617 wrote:

timz wrote:

Were AA's 720s the only ones converted to turbofan?

No the Northwest, Continental, and Western 720s were all turbofan

None of those were conversions.

My brother began his career as a flight engineer on a TW 880. At the time he didn't have anything to compare it to, but as he moved to the 727 and 707, he said the 880 was a rocket, but it handled like Piper Cub in a hurricane.

nikeherc wrote:

Late to market and 5 across cross section in coach. It's selling point was speed, which it didn't deliver until the 990.

?????As I recall, the 880 set all sorts of speed records, so I don't understand your remark.

mayor wrote:

As I recall, the 880 set all sorts of speed records

A Delta 880 set a San Diego-Miami record, presumably on a delivery flight-- don't think the record speed was anything special, by transcon-record standards. Might have set a few others on city-pairs that no other contenders bothered with. Can anyone find one that stands out?

3 hr 31 min 54 sec SAN to MIA, so nothing special. In Oct 1961 another DL 880 set the SFO-MSY record, but that was even less special.

Far as we can tell from the timetables and record book, the 990 wasn't so hot either. No one knows why fans like to think it was.

timz wrote:

mayor wrote:

As I recall, the 880 set all sorts of speed records

A Delta 880 set a San Diego-Miami record, presumably on a delivery flight-- don't think the record speed was anything special, by transcon-record standards. Might have set a few others on city-pairs that no other contenders bothered with. Can anyone find one that stands out?

From the Delta Flight Museum website:

https://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/de ... onvair-880

"On February 10, 1960, Delta's first Convair 880 sets a new commercial speed record during its delivery flight between San Diego, California, and Miami, Florida, (3 hours, 31 minutes, 54 seconds).

On February 11, 1962, Delta broke its own official speed record from Chicago to Miami, with a Convair 880, which reached a top speed of 715 miles an hour during the 1,258-mile flight, which took 1 hour, 50 minutes and 55 seconds."



Just as an FYI, the flight distance from SAN to MIA is 2284 statute miles............at 3.5 hours that works out to about 652 miles an hour.......not bad for that day and time and the speed for the ORD-MIA route is even more "special" at 715 miles an hour. Don't forget, the SAN-MIA record was for commercial a/c......no fighters allowed.

mayor wrote:

"On February 11, 1962, Delta broke its own official speed record from Chicago to Miami, with a Convair 880, which reached a top speed of 715 miles an hour during the 1,258-mile flight, which took 1 hour, 50 minutes and 55 seconds."

That apparently wasn't an "official speed record"-- the book shows 2 hr 1 min by a DL 880 in January 1962. But that's a more respectable speed, up there with the AA 707/720 records. (Not to mention the DL L1011 that flew OGG-LAX in 3 hr 34 min 29 sec in Feb 1992.)

Don't be impressed by momentary-groundspeed claims-- didn't Braniff say their 707-227 had reached 800 mph?

The 880 was definetly marketed as a fast aircraft. The name was an indication of its cruising speed ... 880 ft/s or 600 mph.

While early speed records were impressive, you have to remember two things have changes since those days ... ATC delays are far more common, and (with a few exceptions) all transport aircraft are restricted to 250 knots below 10,000'. These were certainly not the case in the early 1960s.

longhauler wrote:

The name was an indication of its cruising speed ... 880 ft/s or 600 mph.

Guess the 880, 707-120B and 720B could all maintain 600 statute mph at around 21000 ft-- right? No one here seems to know whether the Convairs actually were any faster than the Boeings, on scheduled flights or elsewhere. As I recall the 990 couldn't reach 600 mph in level flight until it was converted to the 990A.

timz wrote:

mayor wrote:

"On February 11, 1962, Delta broke its own official speed record from Chicago to Miami, with a Convair 880, which reached a top speed of 715 miles an hour during the 1,258-mile flight, which took 1 hour, 50 minutes and 55 seconds."

That apparently wasn't an "official speed record"-- the book shows 2 hr 1 min by a DL 880 in January 1962. But that's a more respectable speed, up there with the AA 707/720 records. (Not to mention the DL L1011 that flew OGG-LAX in 3 hr 34 min 29 sec in Feb 1992.)

Don't be impressed by momentary-groundspeed claims-- didn't Braniff say their 707-227 had reached 800 mph?

Don't shoot the messenger. I was getting my info from the Delta Flight Museum website.

timz wrote:

longhauler wrote:

The name was an indication of its cruising speed ... 880 ft/s or 600 mph.

Guess the 880, 707-120B and 720B could all maintain 600 statute mph at around 21000 ft-- right? No one here seems to know whether the Convairs actually were any faster than the Boeings, on scheduled flights or elsewhere. As I recall the 990 couldn't reach 600 mph in level flight until it was converted to the 990A.

I think I'll contact a retired DL pilot that I know. He used to fly the 880 out of IAH. Perhaps he can shed some light on this

timz wrote:

longhauler wrote:

The name was an indication of its cruising speed ... 880 ft/s or 600 mph.

Guess the 880, 707-120B and 720B could all maintain 600 statute mph at around 21000 ft-- right? No one here seems to know whether the Convairs actually were any faster than the Boeings, on scheduled flights or elsewhere. As I recall the 990 couldn't reach 600 mph in level flight until it was converted to the 990A.

IIRC, in practice the Convairs were actually slower than 707s and DC-8s on longer flights because of their horrendous fuel burn. Getting anywhere without ending up in the scenery required a greatly reduced speed, effectively negating any advantage it wound have had over the former.

Please do not forget the noise and smoke of those 4 fighter engines...not very economical
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isP1LVVZ6nU

There have several threads on Anet about the Convair 880 and 990A over the years. Ironically as time goes on and actual pilot reports and memories dwindle their legend grows, particularly regarding what TAS and Mach number they could achieve. From what accurate data I could glean the 990A could aerodynamically hit Mach .912 with no fuel in the outer pods. Down low it had a structural limit (Vmo) of 377 knots. These were very similar to the Vmo/Mmo limits of the Boeing 707 series and lower than the Boeing 747-400s Mmo of .92. At the barber pole I've heard via a long retired TWA pilot that the Convair 880 flew like the Santa Fe Super Chief on rails. That comparison was challenged by one source who suggested there was some Mach tuck at the edge of the envelope.

From what I could determine TWA flew the 880 at around .84 for most airline flight operations. The two aircraft suffered mightily by Convair's engine choice of the General Electric CJ-805 which had a much higher spc (specific fuel consumption) than the P&W JT3D fan used in the Boeing 707 and DC-8. Derived from the military J-79, it thundered on takeoff like a Saturn V lifting-off from Cape Canaveral and emitted more smoke than a small fleet of Boeing 707 water wagons. And that was probably only a small exaggeration from the video I saw.

But of all I've read on the aircraft from Jon Proctor's book to various online threads, there seem to be unanimous agreement that Convair made exceptionally well-built airliners; no Electra whirl mode disasters or DC-10 cargo doors separating in-flight.

timz wrote:

3 hr 31 min 54 sec SAN to MIA, so nothing special. In Oct 1961 another DL 880 set the SFO-MSY record, but that was even less special.

Far as we can tell from the timetables and record book, the 990 wasn't so hot either. No one knows why fans like to think it was.

Fans think the 990 was hot because it was. To my understanding it's still the fastest non-supersonic transport jet built. It just wasn't economical to operate at those speeds, so it wasn't. I've read the 880 and 990 were very solid airplanes but unnecessarily complex, which also hurt sales.

Why do you think the 990 was fast? What cruise speed at 35000 ft, standard day, at, say, 170000 lb?

People like to think the 880 engine had terrible SFC. How much did it burn, compared to the JT3C?

timz wrote:

klm617 wrote:

timz wrote:

Were AA's 720s the only ones converted to turbofan?

No the Northwest, Continental, and Western 720s were all turbofan

None of those were conversions.

See Reply 41. AA's first 10 720s were the only 720s converted to 720Bs. AA's last 15 were built and delivered as 720Bs. There's a lot of repetition in recent replies covering things already covered when this thread was first posted last March.

Contacted a retired DL pilot that used to fly 880s out of IAH. He tells me that they kept their speed down, to help with the fuel burn and he suspects that other operators did, too. He said that their cruise MACH was .85 or .86 when he was flying them.

mayor wrote:

Contacted a retired DL pilot that used to fly 880s out of IAH. He tells me that they kept their speed down, to help with the fuel burn and he suspects that other operators did, too. He said that their cruise MACH was .85 or .86 when he was flying them.

That's still fast. 777 is about .83 or .84; 787 is about .85; 757 is around .80-.82 AFAIK.

In Flight 25 april 1963 Swiss claimed that consumption at 30,000 ft for 990A (990) was
M 0.8 - 5400 kg / hr (5800 kg / hr)
M 0.84 - 5800 kg / hr (6350 kg / hr)
Also I find information that on M 0.91 fuel consuption was about 7650 kg / h and it was absolutely unacceptable.
M 0.78 was the most popular mode in charter airlines. In fact, the planned M 0.97 achieved only during the test flights,
By handling the Spantax pilots compared CV-990 with the jet fighter and the DC-8 with bus.

I flew on the 880 on both Delta and JL. The JL flight was from HND to SEL. The things I remember most about the JL flight were the aggressive duty free sales with bottles of scotch being tossed about the cabin and the wings never being level. It felt like the pilot was practicing his ACM.

From what I heard from pilots the DC-8 would be flattered by being compared to a bus. Many seemed to think it was more like a dump truck. The only power assist was on the rudder from what I understand.

My friend of Delta retired. He was pilot co-pilot on CV-880. He told me that CV880 was slurp gas fuel and expensive operations. Delta got rid of them.

Q

Both the 880 and 990 were indeed faster than the DC8/707/720 at least at top and max cruise speed. The problem was the exorbitant fuel consumption at those speeds made it impractical to take advantage of that capability. In normal cruise the difference wasn't that spectacular. The lower passenger capacity and high fuel consumption of the Convairs led to their early demise.

Dad was a mechanic for one of the majors. He flew on and worked on the cv880s a lot during his career. In talking to him about the cv880, he claimed that multiple pilots told him that the only things keeping the 880 under mach 1 were the throttle and the fuel tanks (aside from the regs). There was a particular flight from his home station to New York that used to be scheduled to depart about 5-10 minutes after a competitors Boeing. The cv880 crew would pass them about 1/3rd of the way to the destination and announce it to the passengers, making a subtle jab at their competitor over flying old, slow jets. Dad rode it a few times and would remark that at times during the flight, you could see the condensation from the shock wave forming on the wing.

He also relayed that one of the pilots that he talked to knew of one going supersonic during a ferry flight, but Dad and I found that hard to believe largely due to the stink it would have caused. Technically, given the engines used, it should have had enough thrust to break the sound barrier, but I doubt that the plane would have handled the transition well.

I can recall an 880 Captain who always stood on the jetway as the passengers deplaned. One evening a youngster stopped to ask the difference between the Convair and a 707. The pilot proudly stated, " one is a Chevy Impala, and this is a Corvette."