I just noticed something when doing some research online, there is no air service between French Guyana and the USA on any airline. What is the reason for this? They seem to have transatlantic service to Paris but not even a flight to Miami, why on earth has someone not launched this route?

Because it's a very small market. 250 000 inhabitants. And they already live in a tropical location, what would they want to do in Miami ?

Technically there is service via AF on it's round robin route MIA-CAY via PAP, PTP, and FDF. But yes, there is no non-stop.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1): Because it's a very small market. 250 000 inhabitants. And they already live in a tropical location, what would they want to do in Miami ?

Huh? Latin Americans don't go to MIA because they want a tropical beach.

Probably because there is no nation as French Guyana. Its French Guiana.

No nonstops, but as mentioned there is Caribbean AF service connects to Miami.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 3): Huh? Latin Americans don't go to MIA because they want a tropical beach.

I don't think French Guiana residents think of themselves as "Latin Americans".
They are closely integrated with France, member of the EU, use the Euro. They are much more likely to look to other French Caribbean islands, or mainland France as destinations versus Miami in the United States.

[Edited 2016-03-03 21:57:37]

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):

I agree it is quite small, but it surprises me that even AA doesn't operate an ERJ or A319 maybe a few times a week

It's a market I've pointed out in an earlier thread that Norwegian could fill, at least seasonally in addition to its FDF/PTP-JFK/BOS/BWI routes.

CAY-JFK and CAY-FLL certainly could work. I'm not sure if there is a tourist infrastructure in place, I'm assuming there are some things along the coast. Reverse traffic for shopping and visiting the US as well.

Its long been discussed that, at the moment, this is the only other "legal" place Norwegian can fly to from the U.S. in the Caribbean, as French Guiana is considered part of Europe politically as an Overseas State of France.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1): Because it's a very small market. 250 000 inhabitants. And they already live in a tropical location, what would they want to do in Miami ?

LOL  

Anyway ... there's only 1 flight a day (as I know of) between "British" Guyana and the US as well.
And the population is 3 times bigger.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 5): I agree it is quite small, but it surprises me that even AA doesn't operate an ERJ or A319 maybe a few times a week

For what purpose? The small traffic would be all ex CAY- there is nothing to warrant tourist traffic to CAY aside from Devil's Island and the rocket launch facility in Korou- you can do better in Cape Canaveral.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 5): agree it is quite small, but it surprises me that even AA doesn't operate an ERJ or A319 maybe a few times a week

It's also a deceptively long route at around 2100nm. That takes an Airbus most of a day to do a round trip, and is out of the economic range and likely overall range of an e175.

Quoting N757ST (Reply 9):

Yep an E175 would be swimming the last 150mi. Only a E190 could make it nonstop.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 3): Huh? Latin Americans don't go to MIA because they want a tropical beach.

No, but often they have ties there. French Guiana inhabitants have ties elsewhere.

Quoting eta unknown (Reply 8): For what purpose? The small traffic would be all ex CAY- there is nothing to warrant tourist traffic to CAY aside from Devil's Island and the rocket launch facility in Korou- you can do better in Cape Canaveral.

Well there is also the Amazon forest.

I heard French Guyana is pretty basic and wild, even in Cayenne you can find gigantic spiders and geckos roaming your garden or house. Not for the basic tourist. It is a bit like Saint Pierre and Miquelon, the two French islands near Canada, there is really not much there, although granted Saint Pierre and Miquelon are much much smaller, they cannot even handle a daily flight to Paris or any other French territories, there are only a handful of propeller flights to Canada.

Despite the Kourou space center, it seems Cayenne and French Guyana have very little to offer. I would live to visit one day though.

Quoting Curiousflyer (Reply 12): even in Cayenne you can find gigantic spiders and geckos roaming your garden or house.

Come to Sydney, the gigantic spider are the most poisonous in the world and the blue tongue lizards can eat the giant geckos for breakfast, not to mention the snakes!
Hasn't dampened the tourist trade down here.

DGemuser

Quoting chiad (Reply 7):

There's at least 3 daily flights between JFK and British Guiana (Guyana) plus another 2 from Miami.

They can take an AD flight to BEL and then a JJ flight to MIA

Quoting spinkid (Reply 6): Its long been discussed that, at the moment, this is the only other "legal" place Norwegian can fly to from the U.S. in the Caribbean, as French Guiana is considered part of Europe politically as an Overseas State of France

Why not SXM/AUA/CUR/BON or any British islands?

Quoting airfrancejfk (Reply 14): There's at least 3 daily flights between JFK and British Guiana (Guyana) plus another 2 from Miami.

NYC has a large population from Guyana (the English-speaking one).

I think we have to remember that we're talking a 5hr flight between MIA and CAY. That's not your regular ERJ route. Also, I tend to agree that given its distance to the continental US and the various options via the French Caribbean, there's really not that much of a necessity for a non-stop flight of their own. Having been to Suriname and Guyana (the independent one) last year, I was rather surprised how bad French Guiana is connected to those places and maybe also a connection to POS on BW could improve things and maybe be even more helpful than a low frequency non-stop to MIA

Quoting airfrancejfk (Reply 14): There's at least 3 daily flights between JFK and British Guiana (Guyana) plus another 2 from Miami.

Guyana is a independent country not a british colony anymore.

CAY doesn't seem to have much service to anywhere, even within South America and the southern Caribbean.

As mentioned earlier, with only 250,000 people living in French Guiana, there is no market for a non-stop service between CAY and MIA or any other city in the USA.
French Guiana inhabitants are French citizens, for that reason there is a market for services to Paris and the French Caribbean islands.
For information, both Martinique and Guadeloupe have a total population of 800,000.

Connections are even poor to French Guyana's neighbors. As far as I know the only way from Brazil to Cayenne is through Belem on Azul twice a week.

I think that the connections to Suriname are even worse. I once needed to fly GIG-PBM, and the best routing was through AMS!

Quoting chiad (Reply 7): Anyway ... there's only 1 flight a day (as I know of) between "British" Guyana and the US as well. And the population is 3 times bigger.

No such thing as British Guyana. It gained independence in 1966 and stopped being called British Guiana and became Guyana. Same as Dutch Guiana became Suriname and French Guiana stayed the same. French Guiana was unqiue in that it remained a French Department and looked to France.

Guyana ( GEO ) are the only English speaking country in South America with a Caribbean culture. Also there are many historical links due to mass emigration of Guyanese to the USA and Canada. Hence the air links.

It does not surprise me that there are few links from French Guiana ( CAY ) to the USA.

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 17): I think we have to remember that we're talking a 5hr flight between MIA and CAY. That's not your regular ERJ route. Also, I tend to agree that given its distance to the continental US and the various options via the French Caribbean, there's really not that much of a necessity for a non-stop flight of their own. Having been to Suriname and Guyana (the independent one) last year, I was rather surprised how bad French Guiana is connected to those places and maybe also a connection to POS on BW could improve things and maybe be even more helpful than a low frequency non-stop to MIA

Guyane doesn't even have land crossings with its neighbours. Well a bridge was built to Brazil but 5 years later it hasn't been inaugurated yet :

at one time AF flew the Caravelle from MIA I believe thru FDF and PTP and maybe one other stop..maybe up until the 1970's?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 22): Guyana ( GEO ) are the only English speaking country in South America with a Caribbean culture. Also there are many historical links due to mass emigration of Guyanese to the USA and Canada. Hence the air links. It does not surprise me that there are few links from French Guiana ( CAY ) to the USA.

  

The Guianas have always been an interesting region in South America. With only Guyana really having any real need for air links with North America. Suriname has it's air links to the Caribbean, and AMS.

Then there's obscure French Guiana - a territory full of uninhabited land, and a hand full of scientists, and a couple thousand people. Outside of France, no one really knows about this overseas department.

If anyone would ever need to, they can just take that AF hopper to MIA.

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 25): The Guianas have always been an interesting region in South America

They certainly are very interesting history. I have been to Guyana twice. Would love to visit CAY/PBM one day. Never got to try out the PY B743 sadly.

That CAY-MIA has an interesting routing too. 9 hours 15 mins on a A320. 55mins on the ground at PAP then 65 mins at PTP and 50 mins at FDF. EUR695 return for a ticket.

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 19): CAY doesn't seem to have much service to anywhere, even within South America and the southern Caribbean.

There's not much to do there, in 1 days I walked the ENTIRE city! the beaches are taken by sharks and jellyfish! the jungle not really explored...

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 21): I think that the connections to Suriname are even worse. I once needed to fly GIG-PBM, and the best routing was through AMS!

I took the PY flight from PBM to BEL easy breezy! and cheap, 200 usd at that time (3 years ago). Flight fully packed, 98% brazilian nationals.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23): Guyane doesn't even have land crossings with its neighbours. Well a bridge was built to Brazil but 5 years later it hasn't been inaugurated yet :

It's rumored the FR Guyana doesn't want to open it because they have a weak customs and migration systems (not many staff I mean) and a mass migration from poor Brazilians looking to earn strong currency could result from this... I can fly NOW to paris without a visa but when I visited CAY I had to fly to BSB to apply for a "special" visa in person... from there you can tel!!

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 25): Suriname has it's air links to the Caribbean, and AMS.

Surinam is long connected to is "colony" neighbors AUA, CUR SXM SAB EIS .... many surinamese living there and marrying people from there...

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 27): Surinam is long connected to is "colony" neighbors AUA, CUR SXM SAB EIS .... many surinamese living there and marrying people from there...

Hence why I said:

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 25): Suriname has it's air links to the Caribbean, and AMS.

As well as PBM-GEO-MIA, and PBM-BEL.  

[Edited 2016-03-04 08:39:48]

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):

They do have service to MIA via FDF. Its a mere change of flight #. Same aircraft. Antilleans shop in MIA so being tropical has nothing to do with it.
French Guyanese have no need to migrate to the USA, given that they are part of France, so move to the metropole.

Quoting chiad (Reply 7):

There are many flights between GEO and the USA. In fact 90k residents of the USA (mainly VFR) visit Guyana, and maybe about 30k Guyanese visit the USA.

BW has a daily JFK GEO nonstop. They run a daily MIA POS GEO. Dynamic runs a 3X weekly JFK GEO, increasing to daily during peak periods. PY runs 2X weekly MIA GEO nonstop. OJ runs JFK KIN GEO 3x weekly. And of course there are connections via POS, CUR, AUA, and even PTY.

Quoting spinkid (Reply 6):

Quoting spinkid (Reply 6):

Don't think that CAY offers the traditional notion of a tropical vacation. There aren't white sand beaches, except on the infamous islands connected to what was once known as Devil's Island.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 16):

Yes. In fact Guyanese are the 5th largest immigrant group in NYC.

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 17):

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 19):

CAY is connected to PBM with PY. Connections are available to GEO and POS.

The French Caribbean on the whole is poorly integrated with the rest of the Americas. Something about how the French run things.

Similarly the English speaking Caribbean (inclusive of Guyana) is tied heavily to North America, with scanty ties to Latin America, though CM is now improving things via its PTY hub.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 21):

GOL and PY have service from BEL to PBM. PY 4X, and GOL 2X weekly.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 23):

The Corentyne River is very wide, so a bridge would be prohibitively expensive to build or maintained. Areas bordering Venezuela and Brazil are poorly inhabited, except to a degree in the Rupununi (Guyana) and Roraima (Brazil).

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 25):

PBM does have air links to North America with PY running 5x weekly flights to MIA (via GEO or AUA). Connections are also available via POS, CUR, and AUA.

The main issue is that Surinamers and French Guyanese (the French spelling is Guyane, so I use the "y") don't migrate to the USA in large numbers.

There is a small Surinamese community in the USA, much of it due to their ties to Guyanese, but French Guyanese migrate exclusively to France (metropole and the Antilles).

There are probably as many as 300k Guyanese living in the USA (NY,FL.GA,MD), hence the much higher level of service.


What is interesting on the other hand, is to compare the high levels of service from CAY to PAR (AF daily, TX 3x) with the fact that there is NO direct service from LGW to GEO, and even LGW KIN can only muster BA with 3x weekly. Surinam and French Guyana are fully integrated with their former colonizers, where as the British have been totally usurped by North Americans in the English speaking Caribbean.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 29): PBM does have air links to North America with PY running 5x weekly flights to MIA (via GEO or AUA). Connections are also available via POS, CUR, and AUA.

Yes sir. On a nice 733.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 29): The main issue is that Surinamers and French Guyanese (the French spelling is Guyane, so I use the "y") don't migrate to the USA in large numbers.

Yes, I understand.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 29): There is a small Surinamese community in the USA, much of it due to their ties to Guyanese, but French Guyanese migrate exclusively to France (metropole and the Antilles).

I know. Growing up in Miami, my neighbor was Surinamese.

Quoting guyanam (Reply 29): There are probably as many as 300k Guyanese living in the USA (NY,FL.GA,MD), hence the much higher level of service.

Trust me, I know. I've been to Liberty Ave in Queens many times.  

Quoting andrefranca (Reply 27): It's rumored the FR Guyana doesn't want to open it because they have a weak customs and migration systems (not many staff I mean) and a mass migration from poor Brazilians looking to earn strong currency could result from this... I can fly NOW to paris without a visa but when I visited CAY I had to fly to BSB to apply for a "special" visa in person... from there you can tel!!

The problem is on the Brazilian side, we never built the Customs so that is why the bridge is closed.

Quoting DolphinAir747 (Reply 16): Quoting spinkid (Reply 6): Its long been discussed that, at the moment, this is the only other "legal" place Norwegian can fly to from the U.S. in the Caribbean, as French Guiana is considered part of Europe politically as an Overseas State of France Why not SXM/AUA/CUR/BON or any British islands?

There are a variety of legal technicalities summed up in a thread about DY serving the French Caribbean. Sorry I don't have the link, but those places, unlike the French Caribbean and CAY are not considered part of the European Union in terms of Open Skies.

Quoting spinkid (Reply 32):

There is some arrangement where SXM serves as the entry gateway for the French side, even though it is located on the Dutch. Don't know if this will allow a waiver for DY to run JFK SXM service. Do know that DL will loudly protest if such service is allowed as DY's low fares would kill them. SXM is definitely a mass market destination, so very price sensitive.

It is a concept that is hard for many to understand. The French side of St Martin is in "Europe" as it is an integral part of France, just like any small town in that country. Even though the local population speak English (and the usual English creole) every thing is conducted in French, leading to accusations of linguistic discrimination by the locals.

The Dutch side of St Maarten is a semi autonomous nation within the Kingdom of the Netherlands. It is not part of the EU. The do have the right to negotiate their own international air agreements. One sees few signs that it has any connection to the Netherlands, not even the euro, which is very evident on the French side. In fact it feels a lot like STT, with the usual US fast food restaurants being very evident.

The Dutch and the French administer their "possessions" very differently.

Quoting jfkgig (Reply 21): I think that the connections to Suriname are even worse. I once needed to fly GIG-PBM, and the best routing was through AMS!

AMS is a bad choice, you can go to MIA and go to PBM from there the same day or the next day (depending on your arrival time in MIA). No need to go all the way to AMS to go to PBM (at least if the price is right of course).


A388

Quoting Curiousflyer (Reply 12): Despite the Kourou space center, it seems Cayenne and French Guyana have very little to offer. I would live to visit one day though.

Having seen movies depicting the Devils Island Penal Colony, I would not think French Guyana would be a tourist attraction for the French or North Americans.

Quoting CV880 (Reply 35):

Of course movies about Devil's Island aim to terrify. French Guyana isn't that bad. Its just not for the tourist who wants a beach based vacation with a rum punch in hand.

Perhaps a B6 Emb190 about 3x weekly from SJU or FLL could work to make connections?

NYC to CAY seems like a perfect route for a CS100.   

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1): Because it's a very small market. 250 000 inhabitants. And they already live in a tropical location, what would they want to do in Miami ?

There are lots of small market caribbean destinations who residents already "live in a tropical destination" but go to Miami (and now PTY) very frequently for shopping etc

I am a little surprised that CM has not looked at CAY. Underserved route that could benefit from connections to a major hub.

Quoting Curiousflyer (Reply 12): even in Cayenne you can find gigantic spiders and geckos roaming your garden or house. Not for the basic tourist.

Hell in SoFLa you can find Gators in your swimming pool and pythons in your garden. Why would you want to go there.

Let's not forget that PY does have flights to the United States. They serve PBM and GEO from SFB. They also have a connection flight CAY-PBM.

Quoting A388 (Reply 34): AMS is a bad choice, you can go to MIA and go to PBM from there the same day or the next day (depending on your arrival time in MIA). No need to go all the way to AMS to go to PBM (at least if the price is right of course).

Unfortunately PY no longer flies PBM-MIA, they fly PBM-SFB instead. But it could have been even shorter since both G3 and PY also fly PBM-BEL. Therefor for a GIG-PBM flight G3 would have been the airline of choice with a transfer in BEL.

Quoting PatrickZ80 (Reply 40): Quoting A388 (Reply 34): AMS is a bad choice, you can go to MIA and go to PBM from there the same day or the next day (depending on your arrival time in MIA). No need to go all the way to AMS to go to PBM (at least if the price is right of course). Unfortunately PY no longer flies PBM-MIA, they fly PBM-SFB instead. But it could have been even shorter since both G3 and PY also fly PBM-BEL. Therefor for a GIG-PBM flight G3 would have been the airline of choice with a transfer in BEL.

PY flies MIA-PBM five times a week, soon increasing to six times a week. It is 3w via AUA and 2w (soon 3w) via GEO.

PY flies SFB-PBM once a week via GEO during July and August only.

Quoting Yellowtail (Reply 38):

Indeed, many a golfer in FL has had a sudden encounter with a jaw snapping croc while attempted to get to a ball that got close to a water hole.

Quoting PatrickZ80 (Reply 39):

Yes, in fact PY is the only way to get to CAY from points beyond MIA. Its afternoon departure from MIA allows connections from other points in the USA. Other alternates might be AA to FDF with connections to CAY on AF, but that also leaves MIA late morning, so mightn't allow people arriving from non gate way cities.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):

  

Quoting Aesma (Reply 11): Well there is also the Amazon forest.

Go to Brazil or Suriname where tourism is even slightly developed compared to French Guiana.

Wasn't there some kind of "milk run" fight that flew from the mainland USA to CAY, with three stops in between??

Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 44): Wasn't there some kind of "milk run" fight that flew from the mainland USA to CAY, with three stops in between??

It's not a through flight number, but Air France still flies MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY with an A320.

Quoting RJNUT (Reply 24): at one time AF flew the Caravelle from MIA I believe thru FDF and PTP and maybe one other stop..maybe up until the 1970's?

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45): Quoting Freshside3 (Reply 44): Wasn't there some kind of "milk run" fight that flew from the mainland USA to CAY, with three stops in between?? It's not a through flight number, but Air France still flies MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY with an A320.

AF started that service in the late 1960s, initially using the Caravelle. In their April 1969 timetable it was daily, routing MIA-PAP-SJU-ANU-PTP-FDF. No local traffic MIA-SJU (domestic).

At that time MIA-CAY would have required an overnight stop at either PTP or FDF. AF then had 2 707s a week PTP-FDF-CAY that were continuations of flights originating Paris, and 2 multistop Caravelles a week. One operated PTP-FDF-BGI-POS-GEO-CAY and the other PTP-FDF-POS-GEO-PBM-CAY. Those flights had been operating for many years using DC-4s.

The Caravelles on the AF Caribbean routes were later replaced with 727s, 737s and now A320s. That Caribbean service was AF's only MIA service for many years until they obtained Paris-MIA rights sometime in the 1980s.

AF Caravelle departing MIA 1970 (fake dubbed sound):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4lxLfBpO4o

In later years at MIA:

View Large View Medium Photo © R.A.Scholefield

View Large View Medium Photo © Johan Ljungdahl

View Large View Medium Photo © Justin Cederholm

View Large View Medium Photo © Brian Gershey

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45): It's not a through flight number, but Air France still flies MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY with an A320.

It's a through flight both ways... flight 613 MIA-CAY via PAP, PTP and FDF, then flight 606 CAY-MIA via FDF, PTP and PAP.

Quoting qqflyboy (Reply 48): Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 45): It's not a through flight number, but Air France still flies MIA-PAP-PTP-FDF-CAY with an A320. It's a through flight both ways... flight 613 MIA-CAY via PAP, PTP and FDF, then flight 606 CAY-MIA via FDF, PTP and PAP.

Those must be the only AF flights with 3 intermediate stops, and their longest A320 flights, elapsed time all the way 9:15 southbound and 10:10 northbound.

I assume this could be down with a narrow body twin - making sure it stays within reasonable range of land. No need for ETOPS?