LH Considering Integrating SN Into Eurowings

LAXintl · Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:47 pm

Story out that Lufthansa is near decision point about likely integrating Brussels Airlines into the Eurowings.

A decision on integration is planned for the second half of 2016. As part of the move LH would also exercise its call option set to expire in 2017 to take over the remaining 55% stake of Brussels Airlines.

Apparently much of the decision is from desire to bring to an end the restructuring mode SN has been in for many years and its reliance on financial assistance from its shareolders so fundemental changes are needed.
LH believes integration of the Belgian affiliate into Eurowings would provide the economies of scale that would allow Brussels Airlines to become sustainably profitable by also integrating central functions such as sales, distribution, network planning and procurement. One of the issues that needs clarifying is what would be done with SN longhaul network particularly routes to Africa.

To aid with such a deal, LH has set up holding and management company called Eurowings Aviation & Services GmbH which could integrate SN and would also allow other companies such as Air Dolomiti to be brought into the fold possibly one day.

Lufthansa Nears Eurowings Expansion Decisions
http://aviationweek.com/awincommerci...ears-eurowings-expansion-decisions

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Interesting. Seems LH wants to turn Eurowings into a pan European operation. Also I did not realize SN was still in such precarious state.

SpaceshipDC10 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:55 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Seems LH wants to turn Eurowings into a pan European operation.

Well, with a corporate name like Eurowings it's not a big jump to see it as an option.

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Also I did not realize SN was still in such precarious state.

Are they really in such precarious state or is it too weak to remain competitive as such?

aviationaware · Tue Feb 02, 2016 6:59 pm

It's a real possibility and quite frankly not very far fetched, considering Belgium is pretty much a non-country and EU-rized anyway, it's the perfect spot to do something like this.

NH203 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:03 pm

Would SN than leave Star Alliance?

mercure1 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:03 pm

Wow big news and strategy shift.

Suppose the move should not be a shock however as SN has in many ways become a LCC under guise of full service airline brand.

For longhaul I suppose either Eurowings(Sun Expresss) can assume some markets or maybe LH can service some BRU longhaul markets itself if the economics are compelling.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):
Are they really in such precarious state or is it too weak to remain competitive as such?

Well Europe is extremely competitive and maybe SN is indeed too small and too weak to survive long term especially battling all the LCC activity at its home. So maybe being rebranded into a larger Eurowings family would indeed make more sense.

a380787 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
would also allow other companies such as Air Dolomiti to be brought into the fold possibly one day.

And how many times have we heard how Dolomiti is such a unique brand that it must be kept independent ??

/s

mercure1 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:16 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 5):
And how many times have we heard how Dolomiti is such a unique brand that it must be kept independent ??

EN has been looking at getting larger planes like A320 family, but I doubt it makes sense to operate on their own being such a small airline (only 10 planes today) But it could make sense as part of broader EW venture maybe.

BrianDromey · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:24 pm

Quoting NH203 (Reply 3):
Would SN than leave Star Alliance?

Or become SN operated by EuroWings?

vinniewinnie · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:51 pm

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 7):
Or become SN operated by EuroWings?

That is probably the likeliest option. Reduce costs through a central management system, and still operate a niche product from a country which produces/attracts a sizeable amount of trafic, not only from Europe, but also Africa and the US.

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 2):
It's a real possibility and quite frankly not very far fetched, considering Belgium is pretty much a non-country and EU-rized anyway, it's the perfect spot to do something like this.

BS. Belgian are as proud as germans of their origins. Does that mean that Germany is not a country?

Thomaas · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:55 pm

Makes sense to fold EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN into the Eurowings brand. Their EU operation are already LCC style and they don't have strong brand recognition given the many name changes over the years. The Africa routes would do great with the EW configuration and LH can use AC + UA for the premium traffic across the pond with flights to YUL, IAD, ORD & EWR.

LGAviation · Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:58 pm

This is exciting news and I've always hoped for EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN to finally become integrated into LH Group. But it'd be interesting to see if they will also try to have EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN's Africa network integrated with EW's longhaul as both target fundamentally different passenger groups.

SCQ83 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:07 pm

Ryanair is huge at CRL and they are expanding in BRU. And then Jetairfly while not strictly low-cost also competes with SN in "holiday" destinations. There is also Wizzair in CRL and easyJet and Vueling in BRU which are quite important. Brussels is a very low cost market already. So Eurowings should be more competitive with all that offer.

C010T3 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:15 pm

Perhaps BRU can prove itself a better longhaul gateway than CGN.

lesfalls · Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:45 pm

isn't EW already having problems with its Longhaul flights? This could also possibly lead LH to its demise in a couple of year from my point view.

[Edited 2016-02-02 12:57:17]

DALCE · Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:45 pm

Interesting developments and somewhat surprising also.

EU-network could easily be intergrated within Eurowings, but long haul is more difficult.
TATL could be Eurowings but I don't see Eurowings operating the african network.

The African network could shift towards LX, who has both experience and also brand recognition.
Additional frames could be sourced if needed. Even LH itself could be an option for certain destinations.

a380787 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:51 pm

Quoting dalce (Reply 14):

The African network could shift towards LX, who has both experience and also brand recognition.
Additional frames could be sourced if needed. Even LH itself could be an option for certain destinations.

The brand recognition of SN goes way back to the days of Sabena. Only AF has a similar reputation in west Africa. No one else even comes close. Shifting to LX (or LH) might be a mistake IMO.

SpaceshipDC10 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:13 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
The brand recognition of SN goes way back to the days of Sabena.

Is it still that strong, despite the bankruptcy and change of ID? They indeed used to be SN Brussels Airlines for a while, but this is no more.

330lover · Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:21 pm

I don't buy this.
EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN has a strong brand in several high yieling destinations in West-Africa. Don't see this absorbed by a 'low cost' strategy à la Eurowings...
EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN brand is much stronger in West Africa than LH or EW: Swiss International Airlines (Switzerland)">LX can achieve. FNA, COO, OUA, ABJ to name only 4.
They even started places LGH already operated (like ACC).
Don't think they will turn this down to EW services.

bralo20 · Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:25 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 1):

Are they really in such precarious state or is it too weak to remain competitive as such?

No, they are (finally) back in black.

Not sure what to think about it though. For me, as a Belgian, it will be a sad day when Brussels Airlines becomes a bland unknown brand but then it happened before when Sabena stopt flying (though in that case they didn't had a choice, the Sabena brand was part of the bankruptcy and is only owned by the SN Airholding (Brussels Airlines parentcompany) since a year or 2 when they bought it out of the bankruptcy.

Maybe they can use Eurowing for shorthaul and revive the Sabena brand for Longhaul. From all the brands used in the past 97 years Sabena is the most well known (in good and bad), the original brand SNETA was only used from March 1919 to May 1923 when Sabena was created from SNETA and continued until the bankruptcy in 2001, after a few months SN Brussels Airlines was created from the ashes of Sabena & Delta Air Transport, in 2007 the airline was rebranded again after the merger with Virgin Express, the SN was dropped from the name and it became Brussels Airlines. So when looking back there's a 97 year long history behind the company, not all good but not all bad either. Even today, 15 years after Sabena's bankruptcy Brussels Airlines is still partly known as Sabena.

At least we still have the IATA code SN and the 082 ticketingcode Smile

We'll have to wait and see I guess but it's becoming a bad habbit here in Belgium. TUI is going to do the same by replacing a strong and well know brand (Jetair) by an unfamiliar, unknown brand called TUI (if you ask 100 people what the hell is TUI not even 10 will say it's a travel company, and from those 10 there are probably 6 aviation enthousiasts

). So maybe it's time to rebrand the well known Brussels Airlines (which everyone knows in Belgium and Africa) with the unknown Eurowings brand, I'm not even sure there are Eurowing flights out of Belgium?

[Edited 2016-02-02 13:29:14]

lesfalls · Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:11 pm

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 18):

Yes EW does fly to BRU. It looks like too that the rumored 4x BRU-BOM will actually be started.

intotheair · Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:04 am

I'd be surprised, or would rather think it would be a mistake, if LH were to slap the EW brand on the BRU-Africa and BRU-TATL routes.

There's too much brand equity for SN there, and I think posters above make a good point that BRU has a much better chance of sustaining longhaul than CGN ever did, what with heavy business and government traffic.

The way I see this happening is LH could keep the SN brand for the longhaul routes and some of the bigger/higher yielding intra-Europe routes (not unlike what LH has done to themselves) but then have EW take over all the secondary short haul operations, brand, and pricing. I think this would be the best of keeping SN's upmarket brand and product and remaining competitive in an LCC way by using EW's brand in the places where they need to be competitive.

Of course, I also would not mind seeing a refresh to SN overall. I like their brand and product, though that "b" on the tail has never really appealed to me all that much.

Bambel · Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:10 am

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 8):
Quoting aviationaware (Reply 2):
It's a real possibility and quite frankly not very far fetched, considering Belgium is pretty much a non-country and EU-rized anyway, it's the perfect spot to do something like this.

BS. Belgian are as proud as germans of their origins. Does that mean that Germany is not a country?

I guess it's not about beeing pride, but about the fact that belgium does not have a working government for some years. And from family ties i know that it is still a "3-in-1-country". That doesn't mean that it doesn't work as a whole, but "non-country" i guess in a way is not completely off the mark.

On topic: all the shuffling inside LH group is mind boggling. Jump, Eurowings, operated by ... and all that. From the outside it seems very chaotic and "reactionary".

I have the feeling that of the EU3, IAG is the only realy focussed one. Two main brands with separated but complementary markets, AF/KL is a loose/lost situation and LH is a gigantic bunch of everything, trying to operate every single type of plane on the market. I whish LH all the best but i have the feeling that the desire to "optimise everything" leads to more "friction" than the achieved savings.

b.

uberflieger · Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:10 am

Quoting dalce (Reply 14):
The African network could shift towards LX

Highly unlikely given the LX / SN history.

Erecting the Sabena brand for long haul would be fabulous!

xiaotung · Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:34 am

Quoting NH203 (Reply 3):

Would SN than leave Star Alliance?

I think LH may have been driving the Star Alliance Connecting Partner Model so that Eurowings destinations in the near future can still be covered by the alliance network without them being a full member.

Thomaas · Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:47 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
Quoting dalce (Reply 14):

The African network could shift towards EW: Swiss International Airlines (Switzerland)">LX, who has both experience and also brand recognition.
Additional frames could be sourced if needed. Even LH itself could be an option for certain destinations.

The brand recognition of EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN goes way back to the days of Sabena. Only AF has a similar reputation in west Africa. No one else even comes close. Shifting to EW: Swiss International Airlines (Switzerland)">LX (or LH) might be a mistake IMO.

Sabena became SN Brussels which the became Brussels Airlines, so not many similarities except a BRU hub between their monikers. BRU is a good hub for African service because it has a large African diaspora, not because Sabena magically developed the market. EW can make it work just as well is Sabena passengers are today Brussels Airlines passengers.

[Edited 2016-02-02 17:48:16]

[Edited 2016-02-02 17:48:54]

commavia · Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:05 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Suppose the move should not be a shock however as EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN has in many ways become a LCC under guise of full service airline brand.

I tend to agree.

Brussels Airlines' product and service offering looks fairly close to what Eurowings is offering, anyway, and integrating the BRU routes into a broader, more diversified network while retaining the O&D in and out of Belgium and the strong Africa franchise doesn't sound far fetched at all.

Besides, it's never seemed - at least to me - that the "Brussels Airlines" moniker had any particularly strong brand equity, and frankly its geographic specificity even seemed somewhat anachronistic. Honestly, I've long thought a brand like "Eurowings" or something with "Europe" or "Euro" in the title was probably better suited for a BRU-hubbed airline, anyway - still geographically appropriate, but less geographically limiting, for the home market.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 24):
EW can make it work just as well is Sabena passengers are today Brussels Airlines passengers.

Indeed. Belgium's historical demographic, commercial, cultural and linguistic connections to a significant portion of Sub-Saharan Africa won't go away no matter what the name on the side of the airplane is. Whether the A330 says "Brussels" or "Eurowings," I think they'll do just fine back and forth to BRU.

seahawk · Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:03 am

Just because it is operated by EW it does not mean you could not use the Brussels brand on the long haul fleet.

vinniewinnie · Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:20 am

Quoting Bambel (Reply 21):
I guess it's not about beeing pride, but about the fact that belgium does not have a working government for some years. And from family ties i know that it is still a "3-in-1-country". That doesn't mean that it doesn't work as a whole, but "non-country" i guess in a way is not completely off the mark.

The government is working very well, and has been for more than a year now. As for split governments, do you find every lander in Germany ruled by the same party as the federal government?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 26):

Just because it is operated by EW it does not mean you could not use the Brussels brand on the long haul fleet.

Eurowings short-haul, Brussels Airlines long haul could work.

Even better, start building brand awareness by have a dual brand strategy such as Brussels airlines operated by eurowings. After a few years, change the branding to Eurowings both for the short and long-haul operations

Quoting a380787 (Reply 15):
The brand recognition of SN goes way back to the days of Sabena. Only AF has a similar reputation in west Africa. No one else even comes close. Shifting to LX (or LH) might be a mistake IMO.

Brand recognition is a thing, local knowledge, traffic rightsn experience and language is another.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 24):
Sabena became SN Brussels which the became Brussels Airlines, so not many similarities except a BRU hub between their monikers. BRU is a good hub for African service because it has a large African diaspora, not because Sabena magically developed the market. EW can make it work just as well is Sabena passengers are today Brussels Airlines passengers.

I wouldn't overestimate the size of the Diaspora. There are more people born in DRC Congo in France than in Belgium...

bralo20 · Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:38 am

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 27):
I wouldn't overestimate the size of the Diaspora. There are more people born in DRC Congo in France than in Belgium...

Yet SN flies 6x weekly to FIH while AF only flies 3x weekly to FIH

r2rho · Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:49 am

IMO it makes sense for EW to take over short haul, the product is roughly the same, and BRU is turning into a bloodbath of LCC's, so better to have them operated by the lower cost airline.
But Long-haul should be kept under Brussels Airlines, specially the Africa Network, ideally rebranded as Sabena.

Quoting dalce (Reply 14):
The African network could shift towards LX, who has both experience and also brand recognition.

No, that would not work. There are historic, Commercial and cultural ties between Belgium and Africa that would be lost if those flights were shifted to ZRH. Certain routes work because of BRU, not despite it.

LGAviation · Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:12 am

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 28):

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 27):
I wouldn't overestimate the size of the Diaspora. There are more people born in DRC Congo in France than in Belgium...

Yet SN flies 6x weekly to FIH while AF only flies 3x weekly to FIH

FIH is just a diaspora market for AF as are ABJ (seeing the A380), DKR and many more, while SN has built as strong presence in Congo. I also would imagine that at least to a certain extent there is an inclination among the diaspora to connect at BRU for better connectivity or fares. After all, it's French-speaking (not trying to start an argument here) and not that far off the track

vinniewinnie · Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:04 am

Quoting Bralo20 (Reply 28):
Yet SN flies 6x weekly to FIH while AF only flies 3x weekly to FIH

It's 4x a week direct, versus 6x by Brussels Airlines with some flights via Cameroun or Angola. I would say that they are roughly on par in terms of service provision

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 30):
FIH is just a diaspora market for AF as are ABJ (seeing the A380), DKR and many more, while SN has built as strong presence in Congo. I also would imagine that at least to a certain extent there is an inclination among the diaspora to connect at BRU for better connectivity or fares. After all, it's French-speaking (not trying to start an argument here) and not that far off the track

It's way more than that. It's private business, NGO's, government from both countries, people buying and selling stuff etc. etc.

As for language, Turkish Airlines, Royal Maroc and even Emirates to an extend have had no issues expanding deep into Africa... and where do people go and buy merchandise to bring back to DRC? Not Belgium or France, but Turkey, Dubai, China etc.

Old stereotypes die hard...

LGAviation · Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:23 am

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 31):
As for language, Turkish Airlines, Royal Maroc and even Emirates to an extend have had no issues expanding deep into Africa... and where do people go and buy merchandise to bring back to DRC? Not Belgium or France, but Turkey, Dubai, China etc.

Old stereotypes die hard...

First of all, as a matter of fact, Morocco is perfectly Francophile but that's not the point.
I concede that EK has a built a massive Africa network, while TK is downright impressive. And certainly, African shopping tourism to Europe (albeit certainly not non-existing if you'd ask your London or Paris based friends) is certainly in decline in importance when compared to the Middle East. However, as the African market steadily grows, it can sustain a growing number of travelers and the target groups of the different carriers are vastly different. And I see that TK might be competing for the rather large EU-Africa diaspora, NGO, gov't traffic, but I think that SN still has a significant position in this segment of the market.

bwest · Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:27 am

Brussels Airlines has worked hard over the last few years to build its brand. They've also proven to be succesfull in the fight against the LCC that came to BRU the last few years and have seen record load factors over the past year.

Their long haul business class is truly excellent, while they offer very good service in economy. They also operate a great lounge in Brussels. Their s/h product has both BOB and full service economy, which, considering the variety of routes they fly, seems like a very workable mix.

I would dread them becoming Eurowings, which just looks and sounds so bland and uninspiring.

CARST · Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:47 pm

Like some posters mentioned before, you can use whatever marketing name you like. Since they have the rights to use Sabena again since a couple of years they could either brand the airline Brussels Airlines or Sabena or whatever they like, but just operate the whole thing by Eurowings. The aircraft could be Eurowings, all staff could be Eurowings, you don't need a local management or any other local stuff despite some guys running the local station (okay hub / larger station) and a Belgian marketing agency doing anything to advertise the old/new name.

Overall this seems quite logical and a step I would go for as LH management. If done right, the public won't even notice the changes. Joe Doe won't care if this is Brussels Airlines or Sabena operated by an Eurowings aircraft and crew.

If got this right Eurowings will fly under an Austrian AOC to not get in trouble with the stupid unions?! Seems like the first step to operate all Austrian flights by Eurowings as well, of course also keeping the brand "Austrian" alive for marketing reasons. Next logical step would be to merge LX and LH, also keeping the brands alive here. Then you have two airlines (two AOCs), one more premium, one more for the average traveller, but 4-6 brands.

vinniewinnie · Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:06 pm

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 32):
First of all, as a matter of fact, Morocco is perfectly Francophile but that's not the point

Incorrect... A stop-over in Casablanca is all one needs to experience to acknowledge that...

Quoting LGAviation (Reply 32):
I concede that EK has a built a massive Africa network, while TK is downright impressive. And certainly, African shopping tourism to Europe (albeit certainly not non-existing if you'd ask your London or Paris based friends) is certainly in decline in importance when compared to the Middle East. However, as the African market steadily grows, it can sustain a growing number of travelers and the target groups of the different carriers are vastly different. And I see that TK might be competing for the rather large EU-Africa diaspora, NGO, gov't traffic, but I think that SN still has a significant position in this segment of the market

I'm not denying that SN has a role to play, and I would certainly like to see them expand, but that doesn't mean that SN is not feeling the pressure. SN is squeezed between AF vastly superior network, and RAM's and TK's vastly inferior service (either quality and/or schedules). Pricewise SN is bang in the middle, which hurts as well, but which could be a niche.

I would be cautious about EU-AFI growth. Africa is not getting as wealthy as some imagine (GDP growth nearly gets cancelled out by population growth), and it has just become extremely hard if not impossible to get a Schengen Visa. This is not the case for asian/middle-Eastern destinations for example...

mercure1 · Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:52 pm

Quoting bwest (Reply 33):
They've also proven to be succesfull in the fight against the LCC that came to BRU the last few years and have seen record load factors over the past year.

Record load factors are meaningless when they lose money.

Fact is SN has not made single Euro cent profit since LH Group investment in 2009. Its accumulated growing negative equity which must be supported by shareholders.

The company has been in endless state of cost reductions and restructuring. Obviously LH is fed up and want to try something new. I say let them. Current model is hardly a success.

peanuts · Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:28 pm

Branding wise "Brussels Airlines" never made any sense. LH will put it to sleep.

Belgians should be somewhat excited about these developments. You may loose more autonomy but that's nothing new right? This is just part of a trend. It shouldn't be shocking at all.

PanHAM · Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:54 pm

The new Management at LH means Business and they make things work. It is their Job. I would agree that the Long haul part of EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN should not run under the EW Name but for the short haul System there simply is no choice.

All mentiuon AF TK etc but no one yet has mentioned one of, if not the best African Airline, ET, which has created an impressive hub at ADD, member of * alliance.

N1120A · Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:57 pm

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 35):
Incorrect... A stop-over in Casablanca is all one needs to experience to acknowledge that...

I've been to Casa. Everyone speaks French.

vinniewinnie · Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:56 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
I've been to Casa. Everyone speaks French.

Same here and I can tell you that they don't do it with joy. They would rather mumble in Arabic... And don't get me started on how they discriminate their southern neighbours.

Andy33 · Thu Feb 04, 2016 1:09 pm

Quoting CARST (Reply 34):
Like some posters mentioned before, you can use whatever marketing name you like. Since they have the rights to use Sabena again since a couple of years they could either brand the airline Brussels Airlines or Sabena or whatever they like, but just operate the whole thing by Eurowings. The aircraft could be Eurowings, all staff could be Eurowings, you don't need a local management or any other local stuff despite some guys running the local station (okay hub / larger station) and a Belgian marketing agency doing anything to advertise the old/new name.

If got this right Eurowings will fly under an Austrian AOC to not get in trouble with the stupid unions?! Seems like the first step to operate all Austrian flights by Eurowings as well, of course also keeping the brand "Austrian" alive for marketing reasons. Next logical step would be to merge LX and LH, also keeping the brands alive here. Then you have two airlines (two AOCs), one more premium, one more for the average traveller, but 4-6 brands.

Surely if you want to operate flights to Africa from Brussels you need a Belgian AOC to do it with. With the exception of Morocco no African country has Open Skies with the EU, so all these flights will be governed by the bilaterals each country has with Belgium. To get round this you would need the active co-operation of the governments of Belgium and the African countries concerned in creating an exception to the Air Service Agreements. What's in it for either party?

chootie · Thu Feb 04, 2016 8:32 pm

Quoting bwest (Reply 33):
I would dread them becoming Eurowings, which just looks and sounds so bland and uninspiring.

Just another hideous attempt at making the maximum profit, at the expense of the employees. What a shambles of an operation I see daily with EW long haul and connections to the rest of the network.

A company that is to cheap to invest in a check-in/through check-in system needs to fold. Bags that hardly make a connection. And don´t even get me started about those with higher fares that just want to change same day/destination, point to point, being denied the change because the system is too slow(cheap).

LH group will piss off enough passengers, and then the demise will follow.

....remember, you only have one chance to make a good impression.......

Conti764 · Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:32 pm

And yet again a sad day for Belgian aviation...

I saw this coming ever since SN joined the LH group. The only reason why LH acquired SN was to protect its backyard, evading a potentially large Oneworld-hub at a few km's from FRA. Don't forget that back in '08 SN was leaning heavily towards Oneworld, more then to any other alliance. From the start LH had no other plans than to put SN to rest. The only thing surprising me is that it took them this long to execute their plans... Sure, they'll have to keep the Belgian AOC to preserve Africa so BRU will get some left overs from the other hubs but apart from Africa there isn't much LH will do in BRU. I guess BRU can put its A pier extensionplans back in the freezer...

I don't understand how people compare SN so easily to real LCC's while their s/h product is nothing less then those of the other LH-subsidaries and SN's l/h product gets very positive reviews, escpecially in C. Wby not making FrankfurtWings or MunichWings? Or ZurichWings or ViennaWings.

Right when SN was finally making money and building a strong brand recognition, LH will destroy it with some boring, bland meaningless brand. LX wasn't in a good shape neither when LH bought them. Only difference is that SN got treated by an unintrested stepmom.

Such a shame IAG did not yet excist and BA lacked the funds to acquire SN before LH, our flag carrier would be in a much better shape within IaG and Oneworld...

lesfalls · Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:42 pm

Quoting chootie (Reply 42):

I expect the same. What year do you expect them to fully go out of business?

r2rho · Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting Conti764 (Reply 43):
Such a shame IAG did not yet excist and BA lacked the funds to acquire SN before LH, our flag carrier would be in a much better shape within IaG and Oneworld...

I agree. IAG / OW would have actually had an interest in developing the airline, specially since they lack a hub in central Europe, whereas LH as you correctly say only bought it to protect its turf and keep others from buying it.

chootie · Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:04 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 44):
I expect the same. What year do you expect them to fully go out of business?

give em about 2 years. A very sad situation, so many motivated employees having to walk the plank for the LH CEO and the rest of the the board of directors.

A business is a business, but taking it to those extremes is just begging the question.

ua900 · Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:14 am

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 4):
Suppose the move should not be a shock however as EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN has in many ways become a LCC under guise of full service airline brand.

Two small soap bars (maybe 20 grams each) in lieu of a 330ml bottle of cheap industrial hand cleaner. EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN reached EW standards years ago, great fit.

Quoting commavia (Reply 25):
Brussels Airlines

Unlike Swissair > Swiss, Sabena still carries a lot of goodwill. Brussels Airways sounds very generic and like a two plane charter airline.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 27):
Even better, start building brand awareness by have a dual brand strategy such as Brussels airlines operated by eurowings.

Well, that dilutes brands more than anything, but aligns perfectly with what LH Group is doing elsewhere, doesn't it?

Quoting Conti764 (Reply 43):
And yet again a sad day for Belgian aviation...I saw this coming ever since EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN joined the LH group. The only reason why LH acquired EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN was to protect its backyard, evading a potentially large Oneworld-hub at a few km's from FRA. Don't forget that back in '08 EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN was leaning heavily towards Oneworld, more then to any other alliance. From the start LH had no other plans than to put EW: SN Brussels Airlines (Belgium)">SN to rest. The only thing surprising me is that it took them this long to execute their plans...

Exactly!! They were busy getting rid of BMI, LH Italia and intra-EU cutover from LH mainline to 4U. Now it's Sabena's turn, watch out LO.

lesfalls · Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:42 am

Quoting ua900 (Reply 47):

Why does LO have to watch out? They are not owned by LH so they wouldn't be turned into a Low cost carrier.

ua900 · Sat Feb 06, 2016 5:28 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 48):
Why does LO have to watch out? They are not owned by LH so they wouldn't be turned into a Low cost carrier.

Maybe because the *A neighbors to the south and the west are already owned / controlled by LH. Think about how LG was once a fairly proud airline with a functioning hub in LUX. Now they are the size of Eurolot with TK possibly offering service between LUX and NYC as their potentially biggest new route in years. Sabena and Swiss were once proud airlines as well. I actually started out with an alliance called Qualifyer because I flew Swissair a lot. Also had OS and TK in there, along with Sabena, LO and TP. Look at how well LH proximity served these carriers over the years. Unless they outright joined LH group, they were excluded from lots of opportunities, not least of all that represented by A++

Sabena struggled for years due to LH meddling, as did LG. LO connections to UA and LH are easy on paper, yet getting a revenue ticket to WAW, LIS, ZRH, VIE, BRU and any place in between that involves one of these smaller independent *A carriers and an A++ member is very hard to come by. Even founding *A member SAS is having a hard time in LH's proximity. LH doesn't have a good track record of playing nice with fellow European *A members. The closer they are geographically to LH's core the more endangered they are as independent companies.

LO would become another OS if LH buys them. With limited reach / routes / future. No independent design or flavor. Belgium isn't Germany and neither is Poland. These carriers have the capability of excellence on their own if their larger neighbor would stop meddling in the form of A++ arrangements. The best thing someone like LO, TK and SK can do, perhaps together with AV and TG, would be to form their own A++ to counteract the influence of UA, LH Group, AC and NH.

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