UA 77W News?

TWA772LR · Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:25 am

Any news on UAs 77Ws? They are supposed to be delivered in Dec '16, and introducing a new business class. That's about all I've heard.

There were whispers that UA is working on a true premium economy product, and even a 10-abreast Y cabin. We could be looking at a 4 class bird: BF, premium Y, Y+, and Y-.
If they choose to keep GF, then maybe even a 5 class bird, and I'm certain Y will be 10-abreast.

What hub(s) will see the 77W? UA seems keen to segregating widebodies by hub, ie 787s to the west, predicted 77Ws in EWR, and the A350 confined to SFO and ORD to replace the 744. What are the first routes these aircraft will be on? Is the first 77W about to be ready for the FAL?

theSFOspotter · Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:59 am

I bet it will fly EWR-LHR. Would be a huge surprised if it were to run in SFO for awhile to make up for the 744 retirements until the A359s come. It would be great on SFO-HKG/PVG competition wise against MU and CX. Even if there were a new premium economy product it would be huge, even a Businessfirst product. Personally I think the Businessfirst product is good, all it need is a reconfiguration. 1-2-1 is a bit more spacious and private than 2-4-2, 2-1-2 or 2-2-2.

DolphinAir747 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:17 am

Quoting theSFOspotter (Reply 1):
I bet it will fly EWR-LHR.

Doubt it. UA's plan is now to go all 767 on that. The plan is to replace the 77Es that fly very full once or twice-daily routes out of EWR rather than routes which can use more frequencies: EWR-TLV/DEL/BOM/NRT/PEK/PVG/HKG. I'm also not sure if they have stated plans to fly them out of any hubs besides EWR. Maybe IAD but the others seem unlikely as ORD and SFO will get the 35J as their larger aircraft

Now, all we need is a 748 order...

thomasphoto60 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:29 am

Wow...didn't take too long to see IAH fall off UA's radar, a repeat of CLE perhaps?

[Edited 2016-01-10 20:30:26]

rnav2dlrey · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:33 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
There were whispers that UA is working on a true premium economy product

i have heard nothing of the sort. seating will be 60/110/196 (BF/Y+/Y).

that's a lot of Y+, but you may have noticed that the website has recently begun to sell 'economy plus essential' bundles. the bundles (which can include premier access, a club pass and baggage) will get more non-elites into the 'donut hole' that is often Y+ on UA.

i certainly see most of the fleet flying ex-EWR (and i even think EWR was called out specifically in an earnings call). i'd put money on DEL/BOM being first, with HKG, PVG and PEK thereafter - which falls in line with the 10 frame order pretty well.

[Edited 2016-01-10 20:40:27]

DolphinAir747 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 3):
Wow...didn't take too long to see IAH fall off UA's radar, a repeat of CLE perhaps?

IAH has the 788 and 789, but it doesn't have as much international longhaul as most of the other hubs so I doubt the 77W will go there. Which routes are large enough to support it?

FlyingSicilian · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 3):
Wow...didn't take too long to see IAH fall off UA's radar, a repeat of CLE perhaps?

Wow,so the fact that a niche aircraft is not "possibly" put at IAH, means the hub is closing like CLE did?

a.net never ceases to amaze with the cogent, thought provoking, common sense analysis...

avek00 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:36 am

Quoting rnav2dlrey (Reply 4):

i have heard nothing of the sort. seating will be 60/110/196 (BF/Y+/Y).

To be fair, with American and Delta adding Premium Economy cabins, United will be hard pressed to remain a holdout for long, especially given its JV relationships where a cross-carrier ability to market and sell Premium Economy would be hugely advantageous to the bottom line.

DocLightning · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:41 am

They will probably be used:
*DFW to South America
*SFO/LAX to Asia
*EWR to probably FRA
*ORD-Europe

iahcsr · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:42 am

Any knowledge as to if the reg#s will be the NyyXXX or NxxxUA pattern? I guessing the former.

jetblastdubai · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:48 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
*DFW to South America

I'd say this one is right around 0% chance of happening on UA.

rnav2dlrey · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:51 am

Quoting avek00 (Reply 7):
To be fair, with American and Delta adding Premium Economy cabins, United will be hard pressed to remain a holdout for long, especially given its JV relationships where a cross-carrier ability to market and sell Premium Economy would be hugely advantageous to the bottom line.

i'd love to see it! and you're right about AA and DL. i'm just saying that i haven't heard anything about a real PE at all.

my one concern, as a flyer, would be that the introduction of PE would allow UA to upgrade some Y into PE, and others (higher fare buckets, GS) into BF. it would only serve to undermine the value of GPUs.

AVENSAB727 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:58 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 10):

I think he meant IAH.

thomasphoto60 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:06 am

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 6):
Wow,so the fact that a niche aircraft is not "possibly" put at IAH, means the hub is closing like CLE did?

a.net never ceases to amaze with the cogent, thought provoking, common sense analysis...

Never said that IAH was heading down that path, merely posed a question. As UA seems to be focusing on their West Coast and East Coast ops, IAH appears to have taken a back seat with regards new routes (esp long haul int'l) over the past year. Didn't intend to annoy you or anyone.

adamblang · Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:11 am

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 9):
Any knowledge as to if the reg#s will be the NyyXXX or NxxxUA pattern? I guessing the former.

Gonna guess NyyXXX given the E75s that the company owns – the only clean-slate post-merger orders – use this numbering scheme.

AVENSAB727 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:44 am

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 13):

I understand, I heard some snippets hear and there that IAH may get some 77Ws, I have heard Amsterdam. Maybe some will end up some south american routes, or maybe launch a new one, however, since EWR is the likely main base for them, we will have to wait and see.

calpsafltskeds · Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:46 am

Did a little searching and found that UA reserved these N numbers in 2015

N58031
N59032/3/4/5/6/9

Did have time to search for XX037/8 and Nxx030 or Nxx040

Makes sense as that sequence is open and "3" may be used for "300".

DocLightning · Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:20 am

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 10):

I'd say this one is right around 0% chance of happening on UA.

DERP! All Texas is the same, anyway. IAH, of course.

Boeing778X · Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:03 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 16):
Did a little searching and found that UA reserved these N numbers in 2015

N58031
N59032/3/4/5/6/9

Did have time to search for XX037/8 and Nxx030 or Nxx040

Makes sense as that sequence is open and "3" may be used for "300".

I wonder why they're starting at 031 and not continuing after N77022 (i.e. 023, 024, etc.)

frostyj · Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:20 am

I always find it fascinating how United does not use large planes to the United Kindgom - even Heathrow. Nearly every airline does as Heathrow is pretty much always the busiest route.

iahcsr · Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:33 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 18):

I wonder why they're starting at 031 and not continuing after N77022 (i.e. 023, 024, etc.)

From an operational perspective it's better to have a clear separation between aircraft types

TC957 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:40 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 19):
I always find it fascinating how United does not use large planes to the United Kindgom - even Heathrow. Nearly every airline does as Heathrow is pretty much always the busiest route.

Huh ? UA uses the 744 in summers to SFO ! LHR gets the full sample of UA's long-haul fleet - 752/763/772A/772E/788/744 seasonally with 789's coming soon. I'm sure the 77W's will be rotated in & out on at least one of the EWR flights once the fleet builds up.

frostyj · Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:02 am

Not from EWR, mostly 767's and 757's from there.

TC957 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:10 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 22):
Not from EWR, mostly 767's and 757's from there.

True of course, but it's like everyone else doing London - New York ... frequency of service is seen as the more important factor.
The 752 will go from LHR - EWR from 5 May anyway, all 763 / 764 from then on.

frostyj · Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:07 am

Well American and British Airways offer 77W.

B742 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:19 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 24):

Well American and British Airways offer 77W.

Your post isn't very clear, please use quotes in future.

77W to where, EWR? If so, no AA do not. I believe AA s also down to 1x daily 77W JFK-LHR this summer with the others being 772s.

RyanairGuru · Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:44 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 24):

Hubs on each end of the route helps, and BA (in particular) carry a lot of connections rather than just serve the NYC-LON local market. DL is more comparable to UA ... and use 767s.

mcdu · Mon Jan 11, 2016 12:50 pm

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 3):

Wow...didn't take too long to see IAH fall off UA's radar, a repeat of CLE perhaps?

Have you followed the drop in oil prices? IAH is suffering as a city due to the drop in oil. Even EK is pulling the 380 from IAH. So for UA to throw larger aircraft there to chase diminishing returns would be a poor business decision.

codc10 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:42 pm

Quoting thomasphoto60 (Reply 13):
Never said that IAH was heading down that path, merely posed a question. As UA seems to be focusing on their West Coast and East Coast ops, IAH appears to have taken a back seat with regards new routes (esp long haul int'l) over the past year. Didn't intend to annoy you or anyone.

With the collapse in the energy sector, IAH will be hard-pressed to hold on to what it already has. UA has noted a 20%+ drop in corporate revenue at the IAH hub, and it's not because of competition, but rather a steep retrention in that business. Of course, as it returns, UAL will transition back to a growth mode at IAH, but for now, it's more of a wait-and-see.

Motorhussy · Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:44 pm

Quoting theSFOspotter (Reply 1):
until the A359s come.

I'm pretty sure UA only has the larger sibling on order, the A350-1000.

I could totally see UA up gauging its SFO-SYD service from 789 to 77W.

cosyr · Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:02 pm

Quoting avek00 (Reply 7):
To be fair, with American and Delta adding Premium Economy cabins

I was surprised that I missed Delta's announcement, but I cannot find anything saying that. All I have found is that in November, they announced a partition is being added between Y and Comfort+, but no changes to the seats. If someone has more info, particularly with pictures, can you provide a link?

Motorhussy · Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:09 pm

Quoting Cosyr (Reply 30):

There's another thred titled "Rumour: DL going to 10 abreast on 777" talking about the revision of DL's Triple-7 cabins and Y becoming 10-abreast, Comfort-Y remaining at 9, and a true Y+ at 8-abreast.

FlyingSicilian · Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:46 pm

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 27):
Have you followed the drop in oil prices? IAH is suffering as a city due to the drop in oil. Even EK is pulling the 380 from IAH. So for UA to throw larger aircraft there to chase diminishing returns would be a poor business decision.

Hold on with the sky-is-falling stuff at IAH. Yes, energy traffic is way down, but Houston is still growing as a city, and adding jobs. It is just not on fire as it was before; thus growth is happening just much slower.
Traffic will see a hit because of it, but the idea the airport will somehow fold up shop as a hub for UA or others is a bit, shall we say, premature.

DolphinAir747 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:54 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 32):
Hold on with the sky-is-falling stuff at IAH. Yes, energy traffic is way down, but Houston is still growing as a city, and adding jobs. It is just not on fire as it was before; thus growth is happening just much slower.
Traffic will see a hit because of it, but the idea the airport will somehow fold up shop as a hub for UA or others is a bit, shall we say, premature.

Shutting down IAH would be the dumbest decision. WN will take over many routes and by the time the oil industry is doing better or Houston diversifies its economy and IAH corporate traffic is back up, it will be too late for UA to go back. Also, keep in mind that the drop in oil prices is largely due to an increase in shale oil production and new production technologies, industries very much concentrated around IAH, so I expect petrostates relying on conventional oil to be hit much, much harder than Texas.

roseflyer · Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:55 pm

I am certain that at one point in the 25 year life of these 77Ws, they will fly through Houston at some point. The hub is not going away and the fleet strategy changes every few years.

I think EWR is very logical as a starting point. The 777 flights stretch the range of the current 777-200ERs and some of the flights like BOM and HKG likely could use a capacity increase. I think at some point ORD and SFO likely will see these planes at some point since they have higher demand for long haul flying to Asia than IAH.

Motorhussy · Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:55 pm

Quoting FlyingSicilian (Reply 32):

Agreed, both NH and NZ have recently launched services to IAH from Japan and New Zealand respectively.

ndhair37 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:13 pm

If United can just refine their Global First and Business First and attach it to a VS-style Y+ then great. A 10-abreast Y I suppose would make sense as they can pack a few more people in down the back and make the space for that "true" Economy Plus cabin.

If I were United, I'd slide the J seats in like VS - 45 degrees and all with aisle access. That would definitely cut in above a large number of competitors.

On a 77W, one assumes they could have 8 Global First, 36 Business First, 56 Economy Plus in a 2-4-2 and something like 180 Economy seats in a 3-4-3. It would certainly have the appeal on routes such as:

EWR - LHR / FRA / TLV / BOM / DEL / NRT / HKG / PVG
IAD - LHR / FRA / NRT / DXB
ORD - FRA
SFO - LHR

roseflyer · Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:34 pm

Quoting ndhair37 (Reply 36):
On a 77W, one assumes they could have 8 Global First, 36 Business First, 56 Economy Plus in a 2-4-2 and something like 180 Economy seats in a 3-4-3. It would certainly have the appeal on routes such as:

EWR - LHR / FRA / TLV / BOM / DEL / NRT / HKG / PVG

8F and 36J will not work well for the EWR to Asia markets. Those flights have significant business class demand. I would expect at least 50J seats like they have on the 777-200 or more. Europe like LHR, FRA and CDG don't have as much year round demand for J as the flights to Asia do. There is a reason why UA has been flying 757s to LHR. The demand for economy in these European markets is high, but business class demand is not as high as the flights to Asia for United. I know some will furiously disagree with me, but from what I have seen, the flights to Asia from New York see a higher demand for premium class tickets since the flights have a higher ratio of business travel to leisure travel than Europe does. Europe has far more leisure traffic and also multiple frequencies and connections for some flights. There are enough flights to Europe to cover business class demand without needing a high J airplane.

[Edited 2016-01-11 07:46:50]

thomasphoto60 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:40 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 35):
Agreed, both NH and NZ have recently launched services to IAH from Japan and New Zealand respectively.

Anyone have a clue as to how these are doing? Perhaps a bit early on NZ perhaps, but NH has been at IAH for a while, no doubt some load and yield trends are showing up by now.

codc10 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:17 pm

Quoting ndhair37 (Reply 36):
On a 77W, one assumes they could have 8 Global First, 36 Business First, 56 Economy Plus in a 2-4-2 and something like 180 Economy seats in a 3-4-3. It would certainly have the appeal on routes such as:

The configuration is set as noted above... 60J/110Y+/196Y, but you're right about the routes, save for LHR. With 5x daily frequencies, and the ability now to schedule 767s on all flights, no single frequency requires that kind of volume. I think EWR-HKG/PVG for starters are fair bets.

DolphinAir747 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting ndhair37 (Reply 36):

If United can just refine their Global First

They've already said GF would be disappearing, which is a good move IMO. J class today is better than F was a decade ago. Frankly I think that even some leading F products like SQ and CX are barely better than J, and I don't see UA or any Western carrier doing something opulent with onboard showers and all those bells and whistles anytime soon.

cosyr · Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:10 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 31):

And that thread doesn't seem to have any source either.

EddieDude · Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Thread starter):
a 10-abreast Y cabin

I thought this was a given.

Mitico12 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:13 pm

EWR-TLV is a shoe in. That is guaranteed.

calpsafltskeds · Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:39 pm

Markets were discussed when the aircraft were announced and it was believed (maybe even announced) the aircraft would operate from EWR for HKG/DEL/BOM/TLV x2, NRT,PVG,PEK. Not sure if 10 untis can do all these routes.

Of course things can change if fuel goes up, the economy tanks or explodes, competition changes, delays in 350-1000 deliveries, 744 retirements, etc., etc.

Quoting theSFOspotter (Reply 1):

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 18):
Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 16):
Did a little searching and found that UA reserved these N numbers in 2015

N58031
N59032/3/4/5/6/9

Did have time to search for XX037/8 and Nxx030 or Nxx040

Makes sense as that sequence is open and "3" may be used for "300".

I wonder why they're starting at 031 and not continuing after N77022 (i.e. 023, 024, etc.)

I can't confirm if the range isNxx031-Nxx040 - it could be Nxx030-039. I can only expect these numbers due to the reservations at the FAA.
Since UA just bought some 73Gs, using Nxx023 for a different aircraft would not make it easy if UA picks up some 772s in the future.

laca773 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:48 pm

I could easily see UA flying SFO-NRT/HKG with the 77W. Perhaps SFO-FRA?

DolphinAir747 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:53 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 45):

I could easily see UA flying SFO-NRT/HKG with the 77W. Perhaps SFO-FRA?

35J will take care of that.

jayunited · Mon Jan 11, 2016 8:33 pm

Quoting laca773 (Reply 45):
I could easily see UA flying SFO-NRT/HKG with the 77W. Perhaps SFO-FRA?

Not going to happen. UA only order 10 frames and the 744 will be hanging around till the A35J arrives. SFO will not see the 77W on international routes, SFO international routes will continue to be flown utilizing the 788/9, 772ER, and 744 until the A35J arrives. If UA sticks to the plan they announced then the 77W will be based out of EWR and use on long haul routes our of EWR. However I think there is a slim chance that ORD-HKG might see the 77W just because it is the only route out of ORD that is really pushing the current 772ER to is absolute limit on a lot of days and the route could use the boost in capacity. All other routes out of ORD will remain 763, 772ER, or 744 there just isn't enough frames to spread the fleet around to multiple hubs.

IAHWorldflyer · Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:57 pm

When the 77W order was made, UA management said that some sUA 772 frames now flying international would be utilized to work some hub to hub flights. Any speculation as to where those might be placed? I could easily see ORD-SFO, as that was flown with DC-10's for many years. I think IAD-SFO would also be possible, along with a flight or 2 on IAH-EWR as not only is there lots of O&D on that run, but lots of connecting traffic to overseas as well.

AA777223 · Mon Jan 11, 2016 10:10 pm

Quoting IAHWorldFlyer (Reply 48):

When the 77W order was made, UA management said that some sUA 772 frames now flying international would be utilized to work some hub to hub flights. Any speculation as to where those might be placed? I could easily see ORD-SFO, as that was flown with DC-10's for many years. I think IAD-SFO would also be possible, along with a flight or 2 on IAH-EWR as not only is there lots of O&D on that run, but lots of connecting traffic to overseas as well.

IAH-ORD and IAH-IAD both get a 763 at least one run of the day right now (I'm flying both of them later this week). I think it is conceivable that one of these newly configured 10 abreast "domestic" 772s could show up on these routes.

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