Quoting airbazar (Reply 40): Orlando is a huge convention market. BA however has decided they they only want to cater to local British O&D passengers, so they operate the route from LGW where they can't offer connections.

They also have a sophisticated team of revenue and marketing professionals who have considered much of this already. If C demand to Orlando was outstripping supply you can be sure it would be operating from LHR, however an airline must follow the market that it can fly at a profit and not the one airliners.net thinks it should. #irony

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 34): To add, can someone confirm that BA are ending LGW-Vegas next spring?

LHR-LAS capacity is being upped to maintain capacity I understand.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 18): Why can't BA be dual hub - All your carriers have multiple Hubs .

BA have tried this already - it was not a success as they cannibalised routes where they operated from LHR/LGW and core long haul routes moved to LGW left the premium passengers at LHR flying with someone else.

Quoting vectismanpaul (Reply 41): Why can't some people just accept that British Airways also operate from Gatwick as well as Heathrow. Their short haul services there now make a profit and their long haul services have always done well in terms of returns. As for Lima the market BA anticipate will suit Gatwick better. Yes aircraft are ferried between bases and in terms of total costs its peanuts so are short haul airbuses. Sometimes it is to cover maintenance and/or unforeseen circumstances. There is also a maintenance centre at Gatwick. Heathrow isn't the only place in UK where airlines can fly from to make a profit!! Get over it!!

Dude you take anything that doesn't show LGW in the best light personally, it's not football, it's business. BA team LGW and team LHR are not and never will be in the same league. To get LGW into profit, BA had to destroy the terms and conditions of their staff, close the majority of the maintenance base, replace the short haul fleet with assorted reconditioned A320s and outsourse all the ground handling below the wing. Even now the long haul B777 fleet does not have the same level of hard product as LHR and the lounges are closing in the North Terminal in January, well before the move South in November. LGW is very hard work for BA.

It is one of the few thin

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 50): They also have a sophisticated team of revenue and marketing professionals who have considered much of this already. If C demand to Orlando was outstripping supply you can be sure it would be operating from LHR, however an airline must follow the market that it can fly at a profit and not the one airliners.net thinks it should. #irony

IF Orlando needed more J class the planes would have more seats or configured the same as LHR planes to reduce separate fleets.

ITs hard to argue against the amount of J class in the Virgin beach fleet since they fly 3,4 or 5 744 daily from LGW to MCO. MCO is a unique market from the UK to the USA, its about Mickey Mouse and Universal. NO other route to the USA is like that.

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 51): ITs hard to argue against the amount of J class in the Virgin beach fleet since they fly 3,4 or 5 744 daily from LGW to MCO. MCO is a unique market from the UK to the USA, its about Mickey Mouse and Universal. NO other route to the USA is like that.

Yep you got it !

BTW its upto three from Gatwick and two daily from Manchester by the VS 744 beach fleet with either Manchester or Gatwick dropping one for Glasgow during the Scottish summer holiday period and that runs June- July.

Yes those British families really do ignore the fact the weather is not the best in these months down the swamps !

On some occasions with 5 747's....what happens when they are retired soon?? whats next??

BTW, can our friendly British contributors to this forum tell their fellow countrymen that a lot of workers jobs here in Orlando rely on tips..Why dont the Brits tip??? Its a fact that most waiters, bell hops, drivers etc etc want to avoid the Brits cause they are so cheap!!! LOL dont shoot me just passing it on

[Edited 2015-12-27 08:04:10]

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40): In one word: Shortsightedness! EK has proven that there is a lot of people in the World wanting to travel to/from MCO. Not just leisure but business too. Orlando is a huge convention market. BA however has decided they they only want to cater to local British O&D passengers, so they operate the route from LGW where they can't offer connections.

Yet they manage to fill their 777s to MCO with alarmingly boring regularity, maintaining a constant fare structure year-round without the need to operate the route out of LHR; just as Virgin do exactly the same.

Put simply, they don't need to dilute yield by bringing in feed from Europe.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 54): BTW, can our friendly British contributors to this forum tell their fellow countrymen that a lot of workers jobs here in Orlando rely on tips..Why dont the Brits tip??? Its a fact that most waiters, bell hops, drivers etc etc want to avoid the Brits cause they are so cheap!!! LOL dont shoot me just passing it on

We tip good service, not robotic US style lip service; "I'm Candy, I'm your server for today, Have a nice day!" All whilst chewing gum     

Yes, I tip...  

Rgds

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 49):

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 49): Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 46): LON-MCO is HUGE! Its larger than ORD/MIA/BOS-LON. Not wishing to prolong this thread but nevertheless, where are you getting this from?

I wonder that too.
UK CAA official statistics for 2014:
LON-MCO 705046
LON-BOS 891078
LON-MIA 1008257
LON-ORD 1160217

http://www.caa.co.uk/Data-and-analys...rt-data/Airport-data-1990-onwards/

Quoting richcandy (Reply 7): Is LAS a very different market than MCO?

You would be amazed at how many people visit both cities, though for very different reasons.

Quoting BrianDromey (Reply 9): I think the convention market makes it different to MCO. There is a huge Confrence and convention business in LAS

For now MCO is actually bigger from a physical point of view when comparing the Orange County convention center and the LVCC, throwing in ALL the convention space in both cities Las Vegas has over 1,000,000 more sq ft available, with more on the way with the next expansion of the LVCC, one thing is for sure, the convention business is an amazingly fierce place to do business.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 18): What is it with Americans in particular with the fascination with BA and LHR .

As US carriers were taking their products down market, BA was improving theirs, throw in the thoughts that everything British is classy and the huge fact that we share almost the same language and BA becomes a go to airline, also the AA relationship cannot be understated.

Quoting irregking (Reply 24): A bit off topic but I would like to stress, that from central London it is not a inconvenience any more to get to Gatwick.

It hasn't been inconvenient to get to LGW from central London in decades, the LGW express going into Waterloo was fine.

Quoting kdhurst380 (Reply 25): This is a massive fact that people overlook - the leisure market that LGW attracts isn't overly London centric, but the very wealthy South East catchment.

So very true.

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 32):

And yet, PHX can only get one flight to London and next to no service to the rest of Europe, while Vegas continues to add Euro carriers....A little desert rivalry is fun.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40): Orlando is a larger Conference and Convention city than Las Vegas.

For now, if you actually add all the convention space in Vegas together it's larger than MCO and with the expansion of the convention center in the pipeline it will overtake both MCO and Chicago as the largest convention center in the US.

Now, if you want to take total numbers of convention people visiting, then no, it's not even close, 2013-14 MCO had 1,357,587 convention visitors, Vegas had 5,169,054.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 38): BTW - LAX772LR especially The BA Gatwick presence is not an enforced situation at all.

Sure, but their longhaul routing to here was. That's what I was referring to.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 50): LHR-LAS capacity is being upped to maintain capacity I understand.

It's already a 744, and very unlikely to go A380, so not sure what else they would do.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 54): Why dont the Brits tip???

Because they, like most other First World residents, aren't used to a system where people are underpaid to perform general duties, and thus have to rely on the subjectivity of patrons just to make a base-level living.

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 57): As US carriers were taking their products down market

Which is of course, more lore than fact.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 10): BA from LHR will be biased more towards business passengers with quite a proportion of international transfer passengers.

  

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 14): it fits the leisure profile but has huge amounts of connecting passeengers due to the limited Europe-Las Vegas avaiability.

Actually there are quite a lot of nonstops between LAS and Europe, having increased significantly in the past few years. LHR/LGW/MAN/FRA/ZRH/ARN/CPH/CGN (from May) all have regular nonstop flights to LAS, along with seasonal/charters from GLA/STN/MAD.

You're right about the large amounts of connecting passengers. One can easily connect onto the daily 744 to LAS from Middle East/India, which are growing sources of int'l visitors to LAS. It's more difficult to connect onto, say, DE's FRA-LAS or Edelweiss' ZRH-LAS as these flights are less than daily or seasonal.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 17): Source?

http://airlineroute.net/2015/10/22/ba-las-may16/

The 777 on LGW-LAS will be transferred to the resumed LGW-JFK service.

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 50): LHR-LAS capacity is being upped to maintain capacity I understand.

I think you mean frequency will be upped. Ultimately 4 additional frequencies, all with 744, will be added. One will be able to fly LHR-LAS 11x weekly.

[Edited 2015-12-28 13:25:26]

Quoting crownvic (Reply 54): BTW, can our friendly British contributors to this forum tell their fellow countrymen that a lot of workers jobs here in Orlando rely on tips..Why dont the Brits tip??? Its a fact that most waiters, bell hops, drivers etc etc want to avoid the Brits cause they are so cheap!!! LOL dont shoot me just passing it on

Some of us do, but some might just assume that the service is paid for when you pay for the food. It is here, so we're not generally accustomed to tipping.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 58): Because they, like most other First World residents, aren't used to a system where people are underpaid to perform general duties, and thus have to rely on the subjectivity of patrons just to make a base-level living.

That covers it!

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 58): It's already a 744, and very unlikely to go A380, so not sure what else they would do.

I believe more than one flight on some days....

Quoting ytraveller (Reply 59): I think you mean frequency will be upped. Ultimately 4 additional frequencies, all with 744, will be added. One will be able to fly LHR-LAS 11x weekly.

Fair point, they're upping capacity with frequency  

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 38): BTW - LAX772LR especially The BA Gatwick presence is not an enforced situation at all. The vast majority of the grandfathered LGW slots were acquired as a result of BCAL and Dan-Air take overs . Prior to those acquisitions BA operated a very small number of routes from LGW and those were to Spain / Portugal and the Bailiwicks of Jersey and Guernsey with their own tour carrier British Airtours also based. BA also built up slots through the purchase of Cityflyer and GB Airways slots.

In any case, if LGW wasn't worthwhile for BA I'd have expected them to have pulled out a long time ago like they did with their hubs at MAN and BHX.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 42): Although swaps are not unknown its normally MX reasons and rarely long term - Gatwick actually has a small fleet of 77E that have never operated from LHR regularly !

Am I right in thinking there's a handful of 77E's that were delivered from Boeing straight to BA at LGW and, as you say, never operated out of LHR in service?

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 51): ITs hard to argue against the amount of J class in the Virgin beach fleet since they fly 3,4 or 5 744 daily from LGW to MCO.

The VS 744's out of LGW have 14 J seats. I think it's more to do with the lack of demand compared to PE and Economy on the routes they use the 744s in that config on rather than frequency, which I suppose is reflective of the type of market. VS use them to destinations other than MCO.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 54): BTW, can our friendly British contributors to this forum tell their fellow countrymen that a lot of workers jobs here in Orlando rely on tips..Why dont the Brits tip??? Its a fact that most waiters, bell hops, drivers etc etc want to avoid the Brits cause they are so cheap!!! LOL dont shoot me just passing it on

It's quite simple. Over here in the UK, we generally tip if the quality and level of service warrants it.

I was in New York a few weeks ago in a restaurant where we declined to leave any tip due to the food (steak) not being cooked to how I wanted it. The waiter then came up to us after we had paid the bill wanting to know why we hadn't left a tip. On the one hand, I suppose he's doing his job, but on the other hand, I found it a bit rude that he had the cheek to ask after something which, quite frankly, should be earned and not expected. Maybe it's a culture thing.

As for relying on tips to boost their income, please don't think that problem is exclusive to workers in that industry in the US. Here in the UK, most waiting on staff earn little more than than the National Minimum Wage, which for adults is £6.70/hour. It's not an occupation seen as a career and you'll find over here that a lot of waiting on staff are part-time and/or students.

Disclaimer: I used to work as a waiter in a restaurant when I was a teenager.

Quoting andy33 (Reply 56): I wonder that too. UK CAA official statistics for 2014: LON-MCO 705046 LON-BOS 891078 LON-MIA 1008257 LON-ORD 1160217

That is passengers carried, not local market. Almost all those Orlando-London passengers are local, whereas Miami-London, only about half are local, Chicago-London is only around one-third local, and Boston-London is about 60% local. Largest U.S.-London local markets, in order, are NYC, LA, Orlando, SF, Miami, Las Vegas, Boston, Washington, Chicago and Houston, IIRC.

Orlando is the third largest local market in the U.S. from London. And Orlando is also Manchester's largest U.S. local market, larger than Manchester-New York and not much smaller than Boston-London.

The info he is sharing is likely MIDT O&D data, which isn't published publicly.

[Edited 2015-12-29 06:10:37]

Quoting atct (Reply 45):

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 28):
Both are more than a little offensive however reference is based on Walt Disney being a Nazi sympathiser

Which is completely false. Nothing more than an urban legend.

Didn't say I believed it did I .

Right wing for certain through.




I guess you don't know that Nazi is a contraction of "National Socialist " and that Hitler was a man of the Left. The lie that Nazis were "right wing" was concocted by Stalin once Hitler broke his alliance with his socialist comrades in the YSSR.

Quoting crownvic (Reply 54):

Severely inappropriate in an aviation forum talking about flights between Orlando and LGW. What has your comment got to do with it?

You will find the rest of the world does not have the same tipping culture as that of the USA. It does not make foreigners cheap when they don't tip the same way... it is just a culture thing, mainly because in other countries the service industry has not been built up like the USA/Canada for employees to rely on tips to make a living and therefore a tip is considered a discretionary feature that is given to reward above and beyond service.

Quoting AA100 (Reply 65):

From the movie STRIPES comes a great line

"lighten up Francis"

So why do the UK charter carriers use SFB rather than MCO?

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 63):

Could you expand a little more? Since the statistics referred to aren't publicly available, many here, certainly me, know little about how the markets are defined at each end of the routes, or how the data is collected.

Quoting mcg (Reply 67):

I thought that SFB charges were a lot less than MCO, maybe wrong.?

G-VIIO/P/R are the three ex AML aircraft and have never been based at LHR, can anyone confirm. Indeed I think they've all visited but only for paint or maintenance?

Quoting jc2354 (Reply 16): Any idea how many slots BA have that they are not using?

They use them all as they will be confiscated if they do not use each one on at least 80 per cent of possible occasions in any Winter or Summer Season.

Quoting eielef (Reply 37): Why doesn't Iberia and Vueling move their operations to LGW giving BA all those slots that they so much need?

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 38): Seriously BA don't need or desire any significant numbers of extra LHR slots at the moment !

Indeed yes. BA has no need for additional LHR slots. It more likely needs equipment to operate its existing slots. For example it has just received the remedy slots previously used by VS (Little Red). Ordering equipment to operatre these slots on the chance that this would happen would not have made too much economic sense. BA's LHR slot problem is balancing the number of slots it has with the equipmemnt it needs to operate them. While slots may become available at very short notice (as when Lufthansa Group put BD up for sale), there are long lead times on the delivery of new equipment. Worse, as with the A 380 and B 787, the actual lead times are often longer than hoped for. If this had not been the case BA would almost certainly not have a small 77W fleet today.

Quoting eielef (Reply 39): Does BA ever needs to ferry planes (namely 777s) between both airports?

Yes. Until the loss of 772 G-YMMM in the crash landing at LHR BA maintained a back-up 773 at both LHR and LGW. Since the loss of 'MM BA have not had a back-up frame at LGW but instead ferry in the LHR back-up aircraft as needed. This last happened on 22 December. Then G-VIIK was ferried into LGW where it operated a rotation to ANU and PLS. On its return it was parked at LGW on 23 December before being ferried back to LHR on 27 December. So it looks likely that ferry flights between LHR and LGW are economically more viable than having two back-up 772s. The capital cost of an additional back-up 772 would likely be significantly more than the cost of a great many ferry flights between LHR and LGW.

Quoting runway23 (Reply 13): Contrary to many here, I believe within 5 years BA's LGW 777 fleet will be at LHR.

Quoting Planesmart (Reply 19): If BA was to exit LGW, they would leave the door open to a major international play with say a Norwegian/Ezy strategic partnership, or ME3 acquisition / hub aspirations, so won't happen.

The chances of BA withdrawing its 772 fleet from LGW in the near future are virtually zero. Why?

Last month in the IAG Markets Day Presentation BA announced a plan to reconfigure the cabins of their LGW based 772s. This is a direct quote from Slide 86 of the presentation:

'Gatwick B777-200s to be reconfigured
with 10% more seats
(smaller Club cabin) better
suited for leisure markets'

Quoting crownvic (Reply 66):

Sure.... however you did just insult an entire country and called them "Cheap"....

I was merely explaining why you might want to reconsider. Anyways back on topic.

I did not insult them..BTW my wife is from Cornwall SE England... I have visited that country dozens of times and love it...

And where did I use the word cheap????

Quoting crownvic (Reply 74):

Um.... in your original post?!

Quoting mcg (Reply 67):

I don't have access to the figures, but it was widely reported that landing fees at SFB were lower than MCO, so this appealed greatly to the charter carriers as it allowed their parent tour operators to offer cheaper package holidays, as well as ensuring their margins remained good.

In any case, only Thomson Airways use SFB from the UK these days (and Arke from AMS). Thomas Cook moved to MCO last year and Monarch have now withdrawn from flying long-haul. All the other carriers that operated UK-SFB flights have either merged with others or have gone bust.

Thanks for the info about SFB.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 40): BA however has decided they they only want to cater to local British O&D passengers, so they operate the route from LGW where they can't offer connections.

They can't offer connections from LGW, but they can sell connections, and to some unassuming people who don't pay attention. I've flown BA MCO-LGW, LHR-XXX twice using one ticket. My friend recently purchased a MCO-LGW, LHR-ATH, and she was extremely surprised when I told her that she had to change airports in London and bus it. She made it just fine.

You can search MCO-PRG, and BA will show up as the only other 1 stop option after LH. They are priced competitively too.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 52): BTW its upto three from Gatwick and two daily from Manchester by the VS 744 beach fleet with either Manchester or Gatwick dropping one for Glasgow during the Scottish summer holiday period and that runs June- July. Yes those British families really do ignore the fact the weather is not the best in these months down the swamps !

Where else would they go during that time outside of Europe? I'm not sure what the major destinations are for that area, but I would assume it would be SE Asia, DXB, or the US. Aside from Southern Cal, except this past summer, they are as hot or hotter than Orlando.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 78): Where else would they go during that time outside of Europe? I'm not sure what the major destinations are for that area, but I would assume it would be SE Asia, DXB, or the US. Aside from Southern Cal, except this past summer, they are as hot or hotter than Orlando.

You forgot a whole continent. Africa.
BA, SAA, and VS all fly daily from LHR, the first two double-daily, to JNB including BA A380s and 744s, BA have double daily 744s to CPT. It's summer in South Africa! There are lots of of one-connection flights with the ME3 and ET including from many UK regional airports.
Then there are vast numbers of flights to the various Canary Islands (Spanish territory off the West African coast) which are within A320/737 range non stop from 15 or more UK airports; several holiday flights a week to Gambia, and until recent events lots of flights to the Red Sea coast.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 76): People underestimate the time lost in making mode or line connections that aren't direct platform. Heathrow has a HUGE advantage for that reason.

On the contrary, changing between national rail and the tube, or between tube lines is generally very easy and quick. Victoria (the terminus for the Gatwick Express) has direct access to three tube lines. I wouldn't expect the time from arrival at Victoria to departure on a tube line to be more than 10 minutes.