That's a brilliant video, thanks for sharing!

The 4th production frame emerged from final assembly (Southwest 3rd 737 MAX).


Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-8 Max N8707P 1A007 by Jon Ostrower, on Flickr

Nice to see this program quietly moving along. Just like the old Boeing. Keep it up boys.

Two questions. Firs, will they be parking all of the in storage aircraft on that side of RNT until they start deliveries and secondly what is the production rate right now/ Is it one per month and if so, when will they start increasing it?

Haven't heard much about the 737-MAX lately. Last I heard, a few had been built and I believe test flying was underway. At this point, how many frames have been produced? How many are test flying? Have any significant issues come up in testing? Does anyone know how the performance and efficiency are stacking up against what was projected?


Thanks!

In total 8 frames have been produced, the 4 test aircraft and the first 4 production frames pictured here.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/flightblo ... 811923592/

3 Southwest frames and 1 Lion Air frame.

I assume the test flights are going well since no major issues have been reported. Not sure about performance figures yet.

Info also gets posted here from time to time.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=599227

ikolkyo wrote:

In total 8 frames have been produced, the 4 test aircraft and the first 4 production frames pictured here.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/flightblo ... 811923592/

3 Southwest frames and 1 Lion Air frame.

I assume the test flights are going well since no major issues have been reported. Not sure about performance figures yet.

Info also gets posted here from time to time.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=599227

Thanks bud. I appreciate the update.

ikolkyo wrote:

In total 8 frames have been produced, the 4 test aircraft and the first 4 production frames pictured here.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/flightblo ... 811923592/

3 Southwest frames and 1 Lion Air frame.

I assume the test flights are going well since no major issues have been reported. Not sure about performance figures yet.

Info also gets posted here from time to time.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=599227

Usually testing announces milestones. In particular the big tests that are a success are announced: such as Flutter, wet runway, hot/cold, full flight envelope (altitude, Mach #), fuel burn, ETOPS, and short-field performance. Note: if this was a new airframe, evacuation is another important milestone, but the MAX will be grandfathered in for that (too many people hurt in the testing to justify the testing).


Usually no news is *bad* news with flight testing. For example, we heard little on 747-8 Flutter testing until we found out a gear door required a redesign and the tail tank had issues (The tail tank flutter wasn't fixed for almost a year!). So the fact we haven't heard 'full flight envelope' or 'flutter testing complete' tells us issues (aka 'squaks') were found.


However, in February Boeing was telling customers to bank on an early delivery... We have news:
July 5th announced over 300 hours of flight testing (a very respectable progress):
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... s-schedule

The above implies that flight loads testing is complete, but that seems far too early...

It also noted that 737 MAX production continues at "one per month" during the flight test program.

On May 5th Boeing announced all 4 flight test aircraft were flying:
http://www.boeingblogs.com/randy/archiv ... may_5.html

High altitude flight testing is complete, the 2nd quarter highlight:
http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2016/05/02/ ... n-bolivia/

Which happened after low altitude testing:
http://www.bradenton.com/news/business/ ... 45287.html



LEAP-1B certified (no longer a given after the Safran Silvercrest):
http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2016/05/04/ ... ification/


All the way back to February 20th, the completion (PR) of the taxi testing:, Yes, maiden flight was in January, it took the 2nd prototype to complete all the taxi testing (much of it not required for early flight testing, but good to have it done):
http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2016/02/20/ ... x-emerges/

I haven't heard much in the last six weeks. So I wonder how flutter testing and flight envelope testing are going. Probably OK (every aircraft seems to find something in flutter testing).


Lightsaber

The rumors were that the CFM was doing very badly on fuel burn, both for the A320neeyo and the 73Macks.
But nothing officially has been said, so take that with a shaker of salt.

AA737-823 wrote:

The rumors were that the CFM was doing very badly on fuel burn, both for the A320neeyo and the 73Macks.
But nothing officially has been said, so take that with a shaker of salt.

Wasn't that a couple of years ago? Or is this a new development?

I talked to a SWA captain recently who has friends working with the project and stated that the LEAP1B engines and MAX have out performed all expectations. He stated that the MAX8 with the LEAP1B's could fly PHX to HNL nonstop with out any weight penalties. Granted this is all hear say.

FLY

AA737-823 wrote:

The rumors were that the CFM was doing very badly on fuel burn, both for the A320neeyo and the 73Macks.
But nothing officially has been said, so take that with a shaker of salt.

The low compressor lacks surge margin (I bet because the exit profile doesn't match what the high compressor needs). Because of that, the low compressor bleed is pinned open which results in higher fuel burn and higher temperatures in the engine (more wear).

The LEAP-X was also having issues with the variable turbine cooling (less cooling during cruise). However, all indications are that issue is resolved.

I'm curious to know the fuel burn. I've yet to see the payload/range charts to compare the two engines. I really want to see the two charts...

LIghtsaber

ikolkyo wrote:

In total 8 frames have been produced, the 4 test aircraft and the first 4 production frames pictured here.
3 Southwest frames and 1 Lion Air frame.

What about that newsbite from Boeing that the early MAX frames will be overtaken by later production similar to the 787 ?
At the time this sounded like time consuming rework ahead.

WIederling wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

In total 8 frames have been produced, the 4 test aircraft and the first 4 production frames pictured here.
3 Southwest frames and 1 Lion Air frame.

What about that newsbite from Boeing that the early MAX frames will be overtaken by later production similar to the 787 ?
At the time this sounded like time consuming rework ahead.

This is news to me, got a source?

lightsaber wrote:

It also noted that 737 MAX production continues at "one per month" during the flight test program.

That's one way to bridge the production gab between the NG and MAX.

At least Boeing will have a small inventory that will enable a quick delivery ramp-up.

flyiguy wrote:

I talked to a SWA captain recently who has friends working with the project and stated that the LEAP1B engines and MAX have out performed all expectations. He stated that the MAX8 with the LEAP1B's could fly PHX to HNL nonstop with out any weight penalties. Granted this is all hear say.

FLY

Which management pilot was this ?

I'm not saying your information is inaccurate, but nothing about your source leads to any credibility.

Been there, lived that.

ikolkyo wrote:

WIederling wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

In total 8 frames have been produced, the 4 test aircraft and the first 4 production frames pictured here.
3 Southwest frames and 1 Lion Air frame.

What about that newsbite from Boeing that the early MAX frames will be overtaken by later production similar to the 787 ?
At the time this sounded like time consuming rework ahead.

This is news to me, got a source?

Was posted on Leeham News citing some Boeing BigWig's official presentation a couple of weeks ago.

The "overtaken like on the 787" was in the original quote.
Go through Boeing offical news releases.

WIederling wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

WIederling wrote:

What about that newsbite from Boeing that the early MAX frames will be overtaken by later production similar to the 787 ?
At the time this sounded like time consuming rework ahead.

This is news to me, got a source?

Was posted on Leeham News citing some Boeing BigWig's official presentation a couple of weeks ago.

The "overtaken like on the 787" was in the original quote.
Go through Boeing offical news releases.

Can you clarify what exactly you mean by "overtaken like on the 787?"

I believe the plan was always to build production 737MAXs before the completion of the the test/certification program. That was when you originally went off about it being like the 787 program, even though basically all programs have planes in production before certification and have to do some rework on earlier frames (even Airbus with the A350!), nor is it unusual for some later built planes to be delivered before earlier ones. Also, of course, in all programs later built planes are superior than the initial early builds.

It is just with the 787 the amount of rework needed was extreme compared to most programs.

"Can you clarify what exactly you mean by "overtaken like on the 787?" "

2 statements were made:
"later production frames will overtake earlier production frames in delivery"
"early frames will be stored temporarily like was done for the 787"

IMHO one can paints this in colors ranging from a flat pink to an angry screaming red
Only simple solution is to sit it out and wait what happens.

Well, yes. Earlier frames will be stored temporarily as Boeing obviously cannot deliver them, and as later builds will likely need less rework done they will likely be completed to certified standards quicker and thus delivered earlier.

There is nothing particularly unusual/egregious about that unless you prescribe to the worldview that everything must be delivered in the order built (a view Boeing/Airbus do not share). Customers just want a plane that meets contracted performance guarantees by a contracted date. They don't really care if the first plane they receive was actually the 4th plane Airbus/Boeing produced intended for them. It starts to become an issue that unexpectedly drains cash when the storage/delivery delay was not planned, like the 787... or the A320neo (the horror!).

Again the problem of the 787 was the scale of the issue, not the fact that some earlier planes had to be reworked and delivered later.

If there is a cliffhanger with the Max program , it involves the launch customer Southwest.
Will the WN pilots approve a new contract to cover the new birds coming on property
by next summer?

Polot wrote:

Well, yes. Earlier frames will be stored temporarily as Boeing obviously cannot deliver them, and as later builds will likely need less rework done they will likely be completed to certified standards quicker and thus delivered earlier.

Does stripping test equipment count as "rework?" Who, exactly, introduced the spectre of "rework" and the 787 here?

ssteve wrote:

Polot wrote:

Well, yes. Earlier frames will be stored temporarily as Boeing obviously cannot deliver them, and as later builds will likely need less rework done they will likely be completed to certified standards quicker and thus delivered earlier.

Does stripping test equipment count as "rework?"

We are talking about production frames (so far 3 WN and 1 Lionair) that do not have any test equipment. Any rework would be changes that need to be made to the aircraft as a result of revisions made since their production as a result of issues that cropped up in testing.

Sooner787 wrote:

If there is a cliffhanger with the Max program , it involves the launch customer Southwest.
Will the WN pilots approve a new contract to cover the new birds coming on property
by next summer?

That's completely up to WN Management. If they agree to a market rate contract within the next few months then yes. If not, those MAX's will remain parked up in Renton until they do.

WIederling wrote:

What about that newsbite from Boeing that the early MAX frames will be overtaken by later production similar to the 787 ?
At the time this sounded like time consuming rework ahead.

The only Change Incorporation I have heard planned for 737-8s produced and stored before final certification is that they will receive the latest specification of the LEAP-1B engine prior to delivery (for those frames that currently have an earlier version installed). Subject to change depending on whether or not any other CI needs are identified prior to final certification.

flyiguy wrote:

I talked to a SWA captain recently who has friends working with the project and stated that the LEAP1B engines and MAX have out performed all expectations. He stated that the MAX8 with the LEAP1B's could fly PHX to HNL nonstop with out any weight penalties. Granted this is all hear say.

FLY

I have heard similar, not from WN but from folks at AA as well as Boeing. Sure it might just be hearsay but it certainly isn't a negative.

Polot wrote:

I believe the plan was always to build production 737MAXs before the completion of the the test/certification program. That was when you originally went off about it being like the 787 program, even though basically all programs have planes in production before certification and have to do some rework on earlier frames (even Airbus with the A350!), nor is it unusual for some later built planes to be delivered before earlier ones. Also, of course, in all programs later built planes are superior than the initial early builds.

With the 757 and 767 programs line #5 in both cases delivered after line # 7 -- line number 1 was kept by Boeing and line #'s 2,3,4,and 6 were all test airplanes, so you had one airplane for each model that may have required some rework that caused a delay.

With the 777 program line # 1 was temporarily kept by Boeing and line #'s 2,3,4 and 5 were all test airplanes -- the first delivery was line #6 and deliveries went +/- in order after that except for other test airplanes -- there was no jumping line #'s for delivery due to unexpected rework.

With the 733 program there were 3 test airplanes and the fourth (first non-test airplane) was the first delivered -- again there was no jumping line #'s for delivery due to unexpected rework.

I expect the Max to be like the 777/733 and not the 744/788 which were aberations.

Polot wrote:

Again the problem of the 787 was the scale of the issue, not the fact that some earlier planes had to be reworked and delivered later.

Boeing's Marketing was so keen on delivering a total new airplane within 4 years after starting design, everything was totally messed up. Early produced frames were nothing than empty shells, these basically had to be rebuilt all over again. IMO the huge amount of modifications needed on early frames was also the result of rushed designs. But Boeing learned and the 737MAX has a far more conservative schedule. Combined with it being a derivative rather than an all new design, should make the amount of rework for the MAX quite manageable.

The MAX is mainly an engine update, there won't be any rework inside the cabin etc. It's pretty safe to build up a small backlog.

KarelXWB wrote:

The MAX is mainly an engine update, there won't be any rework inside the cabin etc. It's pretty safe to build up a small backlog.

100% agree. By producing 1 per month, Boeing is 'seeding' the supply chain. There is little risk for Boeing other than airframes sitting waiting for upgraded engines. Oh, there might be something found in flutter testing, but that will be replacing a door or outside aerodynamic surface; that is the sort of work easy to do on the ramp. Or... more 'stakes' on the engine or wing which are retrofits that could be done on the ramp. Note: Parts might be taken off and taken inside the factory for rework. But overall, the minimum production rate coupled with the minimalist nature of the MAX upgrade presents low risk.

Lightsaber

Comparing the MAX program to the 787 debacles, is silly. The MAX will be structurally 90+% the same as the NG and the 787 pretty much had about 0% in common with any other program.

Freaking out about Boeing basically producing more of the same airframe they've been cranking out for half a century, is pretty much the aerospace equivalent of pitching a fit at Kellog's, because they changed the colour of their Corn Flakes box.

JoeCanuck wrote:

Comparing the MAX program to the 787 debacles, is silly. The MAX will be structurally 90+% the same as the NG and the 787 pretty much had about 0% in common with any other program.

But they've changed it in all the right places

pronounced changes on the tail.
massive change in engine installation.
FBW spoilers and stuff.
changed attitude on the ground effecting the ground roll? ..

Change scope obviously stands (far?) behind what was done to the 747 to advance to the -8 model.

Right...but basically...the changes are primarily to the engines. Boeing has long ago worked out how to mount big engines on the 737 wings, and the structure that is required to do so. The changes to the tail and the FBW spoilers, etc, are relatively superficial.

It's the engines that are the big question mark, and that ball is pretty much in GE's court, not Boeing's.

JoeCanuck wrote:

Comparing the MAX program to the 787 debacles, is silly. The MAX will be structurally 90+% the same as the NG and the 787 pretty much had about 0% in common with any other program.

Freaking out about Boeing basically producing more of the same airframe they've been cranking out for half a century, is pretty much the aerospace equivalent of pitching a fit at Kellog's, because they changed the colour of their Corn Flakes box.

The MAX is as much of a change as the NG was, maybe more, and they managed to mess that up 20 years ago and took charges back then of a billion and had to stop production for a short period.

trex8 wrote:

JoeCanuck wrote:

Comparing the MAX program to the 787 debacles, is silly. The MAX will be structurally 90+% the same as the NG and the 787 pretty much had about 0% in common with any other program.

Freaking out about Boeing basically producing more of the same airframe they've been cranking out for half a century, is pretty much the aerospace equivalent of pitching a fit at Kellog's, because they changed the colour of their Corn Flakes box.

The MAX is as much of a change as the NG was, maybe more

I find that impossible to believe. Maybe in absolute dollar terms the MAX development will equal or exceed the NG program cost, but that's largely inflation at work. The technical scope of the NG program dwarfed the MAX program. The new wing developed for the NG alone eclipses anything being done on the MAX.

trex8 wrote:

The MAX is as much of a change as the NG was,

NO,
NG was a fudged up wing aka "elements of a supercritical wing"
and the reuse of a high BPR engine mounting.
( resulting in a no holds barred change of the model while
retaining the certification. Friend of mine once offered
"they changed every thing beyond the wing bolts"

What really did them in was changing to a JiT parts flow.

Now "keeping the looks" is biting Boeing in the a*.

trex8 wrote:

The MAX is as much of a change as the NG was, maybe more, and they managed to mess that up 20 years ago and took charges back then of a billion and had to stop production for a short period.

That was purely a production sequencing issue due to Boeing moving to a new parts delivery and tracking system (DCAC/MRM) that was not even remotely ready for deployment and implementation and it impacted all Boeing Commercial programs - 737, 747, 757, 767 and 777.

WIederling wrote:

What really did them in was changing to a JiT parts flow.

Exactly.



Once they worked out the bugs (and there were many), it really did improve Boeing's production process.

Not just a MAX question but is there any way to see which fuselages were on a train I saw? I was able to get the line number of one (6107) but would like to know the others. Thanks

bigbird wrote:

Two questions. Firs, will they be parking all of the in storage aircraft on that side of RNT until they start deliveries and secondly what is the production rate right now/ Is it one per month and if so, when will they start increasing it?

I read somewhere the current production rate is 1 aircraft per month. I presume it will stay that wat until the jet is certified.

5th production MAX is out

LN 6034 Destined for Lion Air

The 737-8 Max storage at Renton by Woodys Aeroimages, on Flickr

Does anyone have the latest status on the progress of B737 MAX flight testing. During other flight test programs, we were able to follow progress almost daily, but Boeing seems to be very tight lipped on this program.

I asked the same question not too long ago, but there doesn't seem to be much consensus on how things are going at this point. Didn't really get a good answer from anyone here on the forum.

After the drama of 787 development, no news is good news

Sooner787 wrote:

After the drama of 787 development, no news is good news

Absolutely!

Is it still on track for a January delivery/EIS?

Has the -9 and/or -7 started assembly?

TWA772LR wrote:

Is it still on track for a January delivery/EIS?

Has the -9 and/or -7 started assembly?

Boeing is saying 3rd quarter for first delivery. They are still hedging their bets about an earlier delivery and not promising it yet, but it was never expected to be in January (it only first flew in January of this year...).

Fuselage parts for the 737-9 have been built, and the first wings are being built this month. Rollout and first flight expected by end of March 2017.

Polot wrote:

TWA772LR wrote:

Is it still on track for a January delivery/EIS?

Has the -9 and/or -7 started assembly?

Boeing is saying 3rd quarter for first delivery. They are still hedging their bets about an earlier delivery and not promising it yet, but it was never expected to be in January (it only first flew in January of this year...).

Fuselage parts for the 737-9 have been built, and the first wings are being built this month. Rollout and first flight expected by end of March 2017.

3rd Quarter 2016 Or 3rd Quarter 2017?

2017. 3rd Quarter 2016 ends in 2 weeks...

The latest from Boeing was first half of 2017

Boeing is accelerating delivery of the first MAX to an unnamed customer in the first half of 2017, Commercial Airplanes President and CEO Ray Conner told analysts

http://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca ... 12-16.page

I'd be interested to hear about just how well the CFM LEAP-1B engines are doing and their fuel burn figures actually on the wing. For now it's probably kept well under wraps if a problem.

The evolution of that powerplant so far has been something to watch as CFM insert new technologies and run the core hotter and faster than before.