Boeing Patents 12 Across Business Class Seating

qf789 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:34 am

A US patent application filed by the aircraft manufacturer reveals a radical new design for business class seating which could stack as many as 12 travellers into a single row.

The 'high-density' arrangement would rely on aircraft being designed with three aisles rather than the two used in today's largest jets such as the Boeing 777 and 787 Dreamliner, resulting in a 3-3-3-3 layout.

http://www.ausbt.com.au/boeing-paten...=flipper&utm_campaign=home-flipper

Amiga500 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:37 am

The fact you can try to patent a seat layout would serve as proof just how screwed the entire patent system is.

Same with Airbus' detachable pax compartment the other day.

Basic concept art = patent.

Ridiculous state of affairs!

For instance, I could do a few diagrams and thought experiments to get a zero-net mass propulsion system. Of course, I and the rest of the human race would still be decades if not centuries away from making it happen. Should that mean whoever does crack it should be throwing royalties into my grave? Of course not!!

[Edited 2015-11-30 02:43:34]

StTim · Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:01 am

You think this is crazy? Looks at the world of software patenting and what they try to claim as intellectual property. This is why there are so many lawsuits between Apple and Samsung for instance.

seahawk · Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:12 pm

Looks like a very good idea. Comfortable yet high density.

Amiga500 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting StTim (Reply 2):
You think this is crazy? Looks at the world of software patenting and what they try to claim as intellectual property. This is why there are so many lawsuits between Apple and Samsung for instance.

I know full well how mad it is there too.

Two wrongs don't make a right!!

Stitch · Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:21 pm

Instead of Business Class, I could see this maybe as a Premium Economy product - lie-flat would be an upgrade from the current seats offered and the lack of personal space would not be as much a drawback.

seahawk · Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:26 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Instead of Business Class, I could see this maybe as a Premium Economy product - lie-flat would be an upgrade from the current seats offered and the lack of personal space would not be as much a drawback.

No, that pushes premium eco too much upwards. I can see it s a solution for the NMA. It would off lie flat business class seats in a single aisle design, while still offering 6 seats per row.

Ruscoe · Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:29 pm

I could perhaps see this happening in a BWB (blended wing body) in the future, with3 or more aisles, and more individual space.

Ruscoe

Francoflier · Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:44 pm

'Sardine can' comes to mind when looking at the drawings...

DLPMMM · Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting Amiga500 (Reply 1):

Patents are only good for 17 years....of course, if you are planning to die in the next 17 years and really expect that the world will develop and put in production a zero mass propulsion system, then by all means pay the tens of thousands to patent the idea and pay the mantainence fees....

cloudboy · Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:43 pm

I don't get it - what is different about this than other seating arrangements? It is wider, but that isn't a function of the plan, that is a limit of the cabin width. Otherwise it looks to me to be the same as Ethiads arrangement but with one middle seat. Just in more columns.

sandyb123 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:57 pm

And watch premium-paying pax desert any airline that uses this seat configuration. No personal space. No isle access. No thanks!

Although the cynic in me says this is PR only and will never actually happen (in J).

Sandyb123

scbriml · Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:03 pm

Looks like coffin class to me. Maybe heavy sedation is a prerequisite?

Amiga500 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 9):

Patents are only good for 17 years....of course, if you are planning to die in the next 17 years and really expect that the world will develop and put in production a zero mass propulsion system, then by all means pay the tens of thousands to patent the idea and pay the mantainence fees....

hahahaha

You taking the piss?

Costs like that only apply if you are stupid enough to get a liar involved.

JAAlbert · Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:09 pm

It looks like a brunch of coffins, with folks buried alive inside.

I wonder what it would be like as a flight attendant to service three rows

NWAROOSTER · Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 14):

It looks like a brunch of coffins, with folks buried alive inside.

Looks like someone had a bad dream. How likely could you evacuate an aircraft like this in the required 90 seconds?
To me, they better rethink this whole idea…….

sassiciai · Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:37 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
Looks like coffin class to me. Maybe heavy sedation is a prerequisite?

Exactly - you beat me to it!

I cant imagine anything more horrible and unbearable, no privacy at all. Business class? I'd pay money to avoid this and get back to a traditional and uncomfortable Y-seat!

Sardines and coffins already mentioned. Can you imagine being served a meal while the guy in the next coffin - with his feet next to your head - is sound asleep and snoring? I mean, WTF??? Or you in the middle seat, with both your new friends snoozing, snoring and farting while you enjoy the Business class wine list!

Patenting this idea - what a joke - this is a "dead end" idea. What are the guys in Seattle smoking these days?

YYZFAN · Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:46 pm

The only way I can think of positioning this is as discount business class, a product between premium Y and J. You pay for a bed, but limited service (due to the seemingly obvious complexities). I could see people booking this on the eastbound flight from the East coast to Europe, where people are more inclined to sleep the whole flight. I know BA offers a "sleeper section", wherein you go right to bed and have breakfast in the morning. This would be a higher density version of that.

Otherwise, it looks horrible.

DLPMMM · Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:07 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
You taking the piss?

Costs like that only apply if you are stupid enough to get a liar involved.

I actually have over a dozen patents issued (although more technical than this one from Boeing).

Yes, there are maintenence fees that must be paid on USA patents every few years.

Here is a USPTO office fee schedule:

http://www.uspto.gov/learning-and-re...es-and-payment/uspto-fee-schedule.

In addition, it is wise to use very competent patent council for technical patents (my patent council has a MSc in Physics as well as a law degree), or your patent will likely end up either worthless or never be issued.

Planeflyer · Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:19 pm

Coffin class, give me a break. I fly business class so I can get some rest. I don't need all the food and drink and with tablets, space is less important. I'd definitely use this service to get 90% of what I now get for 25% less.

sassiciai · Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:26 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 18):
I actually have over a dozen patents issued (although more technical than this one from Boeing).

I cant agree with the idea of individuals taking out patents, seems the most petty and selfish route possible. Corporations that have spent vast amounts of money, well, maybe.

Just think of all the historical figures in all avenues of science whose discoveries have contributed to bring human knowledge and savoir faire to where we are today - if each of them had hidden the results of their intellectual powers behind a "patent", then where would mankind be today? Imagine if Newton had patented the discovery of the law of gravity! Or Einstein's E=MC2

....and to patent how to lay out deckchairs on a boat in order to get more on the deck. Pathetic! Don't they have real jobs with realistic outcomes to do there? Dreamliner, anyone?

masseybrown · Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:31 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
Looks like coffin class to me. Maybe heavy sedation is a prerequisite?

Exactly, and nobody's going to want that middle coffin.

incitatus · Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting qf789 (Thread starter):
A US patent application filed by the aircraft manufacturer reveals a radical new design for business class seating which could stack as many as 12 travellers into a single row.

There is nothing radical in this patent application. All in it is prior art, so the patent has no original claim and should be denied. The 12-across is a fuzzy patent trick. The claim would be the same with 9-across one-aisle design, and it would be the same as a 6-across one-aisle layout too. Then the originality claim boils down to staggering the seats and rear facing some, so that people are not shoulder-to-shoulder. All has been done 15 years ago in the BA business class.

The patent office should deny the patent application.

Part147 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:49 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 21):
Exactly, and nobody's going to want that middle coffin.

Ummm, how can I put this delicately... nah, I can't... just imagine the smell stuck between two other passengers with windypops problems

Amiga500 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:55 pm

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 18):
I actually have over a dozen patents issued

You aren't the only one with patents and your link is broken.

Elsewhere, you can log a patent for hundreds and maintain it for 20 years with thousands (not tens of thousands) of pounds.

DLPMMM · Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:00 pm

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 20):
I cant agree with the idea of individuals taking out patents, seems the most petty and selfish route possible. Corporations that have spent vast amounts of money, well, maybe.

I have a corporation and the patents are about major technical aspects of our products thet we developed at great expense, some of whiich lave been licensed by other corporations....I agree that for individuals it is generally useless, as they don't have the wherewithall to defend their patents (heck, they don't usually even have the wherewithall to even file a worthwhile patent).

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 20):
Just think of all the historical figures in all avenues of science whose discoveries have contributed to bring human knowledge and savoir faire to where we are today - if each of them had hidden the results of their intellectual powers behind a "patent", then where would mankind be today? Imagine if Newton had patented the discovery of the law of gravity! Or Einstein's E=MC2

Would not have made a big difference, as a patent is only good for 17 years....just a blink in historical terms.

Some large corporations pay a small bonus to individual employees for each successful patent issued, thus some of these silly patents by large corporations....like deck chair arrangements.

T8KE0FF · Mon Nov 30, 2015 5:44 pm

I've always wondered if something like this would work for ultra-long-haul flights.

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 17):
discount business class, a product between premium Y and J.

C and J as we know it today could be retained and this patent could be a greatly enhanced Y/Y+ product.

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 19):
I don't need all the food and drink and with tablets, space is less important. I'd definitely use this service to get 90% of what I now get for 25% less.

Exactly, I think there is a market out there of people who want the comfort of C/J but can't quite afford it with all the frills that come with it and would be happy to pay for the lie flat seat for around the Y+ price point.

The unbundling of business class could be an alternative way to capture this market. Start off by offering the lie flat seat + luggage, if you want the fancy meals, lounge access etc. then you can pay for it (a lá Ryanair etc!)

Maybe I'm just delusional

FlyBTV · Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:25 pm

I certainly wouldn't pay business class prices for this, but I'd certainly pay a premium over Y. I simply can't sleep in an upright airline seat for any length of time. The ability to lie flat, even in a relatively cramped configuration, would be a welcome option on red-eyes. I'd even be okay with submarine-style bunks, if there was a safe way to stack them and still have passengers secured for takeoff and landing.

fanofjets · Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:25 pm

A while back in one of those Internet fantasy articles, I came across someone's idea of putting all passengers under sedation. They could then be transported in a windowless fuselage in some high-density configuration...

So, the next patent we may see would be similar stacking, vertically as well as horizontally.

Planeflyer · Mon Nov 30, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting T8KOFF

I've always wondered if something like this would work for ultra-long-haul flights.

Quoting YYZFAN (Reply 17):
discount business class, a product between premium Y and J.

C and J as we know it today could be retained and this patent could be a greatly enhanced Y/Y+ product.

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 19):
I don't need all the food and drink and with tablets, space is less important. I'd definitely use this service to get 90% of what I now get for 25% less.

Exactly, I think there is a market out there of people who want the comfort of C/J but can't quite afford it with all the frills that come with it and would be happy to pay for the lie flat seat for around the Y+ price point.

The unbundling of business class could be an alternative way to capture this market. Start off by offering the lie flat seat + luggage, if you want the fancy meals, lounge access etc. then you can pay for it (a lá Ryanair etc!)

Agree, agree and agree

With more and more ULH flights in the cards there will be a market for a premium economy class.

Even on shorter routes I could see it working for exampl me and my people take lots of red eyes to Europe where we leave on a Saturday just to have some rest for a Monday meeting. With this type of seating, we could get some rest and leave Sunday saving part of their weekend.

I'm sure this would be a popular option.

AA777223 · Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:31 pm

I agree with this. I rarely find my self in need of width. My biggest struggle to get comfortable on a plane is lying flat. While I often fly J for long haul, honestly, for my personal travel, I would be more than willing to forgo some of the extras and space, just to have a lie flat sleeping surface. For someone like me, who usually chooses to fly E+ for free with my status, or give up some miles and a copay for services i don't care that much about, the airlines could make much more money off of me, if they gave me something in between, that i would pay more for every time.

ytz · Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:23 pm

Hopefully, this becomes the new Y+ going forward.

kanban · Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:47 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):
Looks like coffin class to me. Maybe heavy sedation is a prerequisite?

my thoughts exactly.. and the illustration where the seats are foot to foot treads on some cultural taboos about showing the soles of ones feet being a form of insult.. plus it could lead to up-skirt viewing.

tortugamon · Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:04 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 32):
my thoughts exactly.. and the illustration where the seats are foot to foot treads on some cultural taboos about showing the soles of ones feet being a form of insult.. plus it could lead to up-skirt viewing.

I think the seats would be in pods similar to those found here (at 1:16): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fop6Qu2CN0E

The patent says a third row so it would be a wider cabin to get to the 12-abreast format.

I am not outraged. I personally like that some intelligent people are thinking about how to make sub-J more comfortable. Just because we don't like what we see relative to current J doesn't mean we won't like the pricing associated with this more compact design. We see outrage on 10-abreast Y in a 777 but when the OEMs are looking at beds for more than legacy J carriers we get outraged?

tortugamon

flylku · Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 3):
Looks like a very good idea. Comfortable yet high density.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
Instead of Business Class, I could see this maybe as a Premium Economy product - lie-flat would be an upgrade from the current seats offered and the lack of personal space would not be as much a drawback.

Agreed. I would pay a premium over coach and economy+ as this is lie flat and it appears one's shoulders will not rub against one's neighbors'. It is important not to evaluate this against just J but rather view it as a J- or a Y++.

It will be interesting to see the mock-ups.

rentonview · Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:13 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 12):

Looks like coffin class to me. Maybe heavy sedation is a prerequisite?

Or, it'll just be an option on specific charter flights, like TGM-SEA, with continuing bus service to Forks, Washington.

dc10lover · Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:15 am

4 x 4 x 4

Imagine that.

NYPECO · Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:53 am

It would probably be better to eliminate the aisle altogether and pack each passenger in a closed coffin, placed side by side and stacked to the ceiling. The airlines would be able to carry 3x the amount of passengers than before.

mayor · Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:58 am

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 19):
I'd definitely use this service to get 90% of what I now get for 25% less.

Who said it would be less?

justloveplanes · Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:54 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 3):

Looks like a very good idea. Comfortable yet high density.

I think its a good premium economy plan or economy business plan. There should be a lot of interest for people that just want to arrive rested transpac/atl/con, but don't necessarily want or need an upgraded soft product.

IPFreely · Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:59 am

Quoting sassiciai (Reply 20):
Imagine if Newton had patented the discovery of the law of gravity! Or Einstein's E=MC2

Laws of nature and physical phenomena are specifically excluded from being patented by the USPTO.
And even if they weren't how exactly would such a patent be enforced? Would Newton be able to prevent other people from sticking to the ground because of gravity?

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 18):

Yes, there are maintenence fees that must be paid on USA patents every few years.

In addition, it is wise to use very competent patent council for technical patents (my patent council has a MSc in Physics as well as a law degree), or your patent will likely end up either worthless or never be issued.

Can you imagine scbrmi trying to file his own patent application or trying to get time from a patent examiner? Just thinking about it makes me laugh.

jetwet1 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:59 am

Quoting sandyb123 (Reply 11):
And watch premium-paying pax desert any airline that uses this seat configuration. No personal space. No isle access. No thanks!

Although the cynic in me says this is PR only and will never actually happen (in J).

It's amazing, UA gets blasted on here for having an 8 across (2-4-2) J product, but only a couple of people have said no way. A Y+ product, maybe, but this is being put forward as a J product, sorry, but I don't fly UA or BA for that matter in J because frankly, I can have space to be comfortable on other airlines.

crownvic · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 3):
Looks like a very good idea. Comfortable yet high density.

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 19):
Coffin class, give me a break. I fly business class so I can get some rest. I don't need all the food and drink and with tablets, space is less important. I'd definitely use this service to get 90% of what I now get for 25% less.

"Very good Idea"...Really? The minute somebody reads this, you have just sent a message that this type of seating is acceptable. Flying economy for anything longer than one hour is no longer possible for me. Now you want them to attack Business Class with horrible seating too?

"I fly business class to get some rest". Well then I suggest you pop a sleeping pill and fly Economy. Since you only want rest, you could save a ton of money. I fly Business Class for space and nothing else. The more space I have from the people traveling next to me, the better off I am!

seahawk · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:56 am

I think it is a very good solution for 4-8 hour missions using single aisle planes or small wide bodies.

zckls04 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:14 am

Quoting IPFreely (Reply 40):
Can you imagine scbrmi trying to file his own patent application or trying to get time from a patent examiner? Just thinking about it makes me laugh.

I think we need to patent a device which assists forum members from quoting the correct poster....

scbriml · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:01 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 44):
I think we need to patent a device which assists forum members from quoting the correct poster....

Yeah, now that would be useful!

I've only been misquoted twice in this thread. Not bad for a single post (before this one).

hz747300 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:07 am

To me it works only if everyone has aisle access. Even if it is 'lie flat' it's still only valuable if people don't have climb over you or vice versa.

I'm still waiting for my business class bunk beds patent to go through. There is a lot of unused space above the seats that can be tapped into.

ly7e7 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:18 am

I have a bad feeling about this.

Bongodog1964 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 22):
There is nothing radical in this patent application. All in it is prior art, so the patent has no original claim and should be denied. The 12-across is a fuzzy patent trick. The claim would be the same with 9-across one-aisle design, and it would be the same as a 6-across one-aisle layout too. Then the originality claim boils down to staggering the seats and rear facing some, so that people are not shoulder-to-shoulder. All has been done 15 years ago in the BA business class.

The patent office should deny the patent application.

The thread title is incorrect, but so is the title on the linked article, Boeing have filed an application, they have not been granted a patent as yet.

As said by incitatus, there is nothing original in this application, most of the sketches are based on BA Club World, one is just standard herringbone with next to zero leg room. Yes some make use of three aisles, but how can you patent a 3rd aisle ? It would be no different to patenting how you arrange deck chairs on a municipal beach.

PanHAM · Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:59 am

It does indeed resemböe BA Club World, which still is amazingly comfortable . But I cannot help that it reminds me instantly of the Contents of a Sardine can

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