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RE: China To Start C919 Test Flight In 2015

Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:05 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 12):

It is too far away from ground power up to fly in 2015. Excellent shot to show a complete lack of integration into the beer can. Why isn't Comac partially stuffing barrels? That hull is further behind than my prior pessimistic timeline in this thread.

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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:42 am

The Russians had some VERY talented airplane (and aerospace in general) guys. The airliners were really hurt by bad engine technology (life and efficiency). I am not sure why the couple of modern Russian designs with Western engines have not done well. Factory support, or are the airplanes not as good?


The Chinese are way behind in many technologies. Their engineers are quickly coming up to snuff, but they are hurting in system or vehicle design. Look at the Chinese cars. The government wants to fix this and is putting money to get it done. At this point the ARJ-21 is just a proving ground for C919, customer support, production, parts, etc and hopelessly out of date.
The C919 will be a failure by western standards. It doesn't look like it is getting FAA certification and I bet it will be 10%+ less cost effective than 737-8MAX or A320NEO. But I think it was designed to be competitive with 737-800 and A320CEO and not the newer stuff anyways.

I think the Chinese are aiming for the plane after C919 or even 2 planes after and don't really care if anyone outside of China buys C919s as long as they make a 200-500 of them and are in the ballpark compared with today's product.
 
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:53 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 29):
China's aerospace program is about 50 years behind the West and Russia,

Oh heck yeah. So, there is a chance they'll build a 727 then......

I'm cool with that.

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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:12 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 35):
The Russians had some VERY talented airplane (and aerospace in general) guys. The airliners were really hurt by bad engine technology (life and efficiency). I am not sure why the couple of modern Russian designs with Western engines have not done well. Factory support, or are the airplanes not as good?

Engine life yes, engine efficiency I am not so sure, I will quote an excerpt from the book "Tupolev, the Man and His Aircraft" written by Paul Duffy and Andrei Kandalov, pretty interesting stuff in there and an amazing book which is worth a read:

"Amazingly, early flight tests showed that the PS-90A-powered Tu-204-210 had a two to five per cent lower fuel burn than the RB211-powered -220. But it was soon evident that the PS-90A needed a lot
of development work to sort out its problems, and that finance for this work was not available. Both aircraft
powered by the PS-90A in the early 1990s, the 11-96-300 and the Tu-204, experienced many problems with the
engines; basically a good design, the snags seemed to originate from production line quality defects. And
other difficulties were evident in the avionics."

We can see the PS90A can be as efficient as or even better than the RB211.


Sometimes we tend to forget that the latter part of the 80's and early 90's Russia stopped all major development of its civilian airliners, even then the T204 and its PS90A engine were already considered late into production. If only they had the money to develop it faster and in greater numbers maybe its history would have been different.
 
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:26 am

Quoting braniff722 (Reply 36):
Oh heck yeah. So, there is a chance they'll build a 727 then......

I'm cool with that.

They're already building a DC-9!
 
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 8:14 am

Russia, and/or the Soviet Union, as well as the Chinese, have had their main interests with anything that concerned the military. In the so-called good old days, defense spending was top, while innovate consumer goods were at the bottom of the barrel.

Luckily, Tupolev developed the Tu-134 which was originally a bomber with a glass nose for the bombardier. The Il-62, if I remember correctly, was a civil airline design, while the Tu-154 was a military recon design, later adapted to very popular civilian use.

In those days, the Russians concentrated fully on the military, and if it happened to fit, switched over to civilian. Rarely was anything ever started up with the civilian/consumer outlook in mind.

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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 9:43 am

Quoting georgiabill (Reply 34):
I am asking say a Venezuelan airline, central or southamerican buys the C919 would it be allowed to operate flights to the US?

Yes. The SSJ flies (Y4) into the US and the last time I looked it wasn't certified.
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:34 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 40):
Yes. The SSJ flies (Y4) into the US and the last time I looked it wasn't certified.

But the SSJ has the EASA tc.
 
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 2:45 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 40):
The SSJ flies (Y4) into the US

Last time I checked, Volaris does not have any SSJ's. I believe the airline you're probably referring to is Interjet (4O).
 
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:37 pm

I think a big part of the issue in the past consisted of engine technology being behind in SFC, parts availability, and maintenance support.
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:00 am

Quoting ADent (Reply 35):
I think the Chinese are aiming for the plane after C919 or even 2 planes after and don't really care if anyone outside of China buys C919s as long as they make a 200-500 of them and are in the ballpark compared with today's product.

But is that how you start an eventually successful plane manufacturer ? It's certainly not how any of the current ones started.
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RE: Comac C919 Takes Shape

Thu Mar 05, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 39):
Luckily, Tupolev developed the Tu-134 which was originally a bomber with a glass nose for the bombardier

The glass noses on soviet airliners had nothing to do with bombardiers and everything to do with the vast expanses of the Soviet Union without any kind of navigational and landing aids...

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 33):
As noted, there appears to be very little evidence of a production line and the aircraft itself appears to be about as empty a shell as possible.

You mean, like the 787 roll-out?
 
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Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Wed May 13, 2015 12:40 pm

Seems that Comac will delay the C919 once again. First flight is sliding into H1 2016 while EIS is likely to slip from 2018 to 2020.

Quote:
The narrow-body aircraft, which will be able to carry 156-168 passengers and aims to compete with the Airbus A320 and Boeing 737, was originally scheduled to fly by end-2015 but two sources said it would be delayed to the first half of 2016.

Delivery of the first plane, scheduled for 2018, is also likely to slip, perhaps to as late as 2020, the sources added.

The final assembly of the first aircraft is taking longer than expected at the production facility in Shanghai, said the sources, who declined to be identified as they were not authorized to speak to the media.

Source
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...ina-airplane-idUSKBN0NY1E820150513

[Edited 2015-05-13 05:42:53]
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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Wed May 13, 2015 3:52 pm

Not surprising, considering the 787-ish empty shell they recently showed in their FAL.
I'm sure that Randy T and John L have their teams lining up for the next round of MAX/NEO orders  
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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Wed May 13, 2015 3:56 pm

Delays seems to be a standard in all new aircrafts these days.
 
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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Wed May 13, 2015 4:17 pm

The goal should be to get it delivered with less delay than the ARJ21. But agian, this shouldn't be that hard to do   

According to Wiki they originally planeed to produce 5-10 planes a year in 2016-17. With deliveries now in 2020 it makes them 4 years behind Schedule. Still way short of the 8 years the ARJ21 is so far.

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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Wed May 13, 2015 4:31 pm

I can't believe they are having all these delays and then they talk about wanting to build a widebody. They need to get it together and learn how to build one plane first
 
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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Fri May 15, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
considering the 787-ish empty shell they recently showed in their FAL.

I was thinking the same. Looking at the current state of the first aircraft, no way Comac can integrate all the systems and perform the first flight within the next 7 months.

[Edited 2015-05-15 01:51:46]
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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Fri May 15, 2015 11:54 pm

Still, first flight in one year and delivery 4 years later doesn't make much sense, unless they're discovering that parts don't fit together and are building the first aircraft "artisanally", with the production line nowhere near ready.
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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Thu May 28, 2015 1:07 pm

This really closes up any market window the aircraft may have had; by then the NEO & MAX will be out in large numbers, and the MC-21, which IMO shows much more promise, should have entered the market. But if China regards this program as another learning experience, market success will be less important.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 6):
Still, first flight in one year and delivery 4 years later doesn't make much sense, unless they're discovering that parts don't fit together and are building the first aircraft "artisanally", with the production line nowhere near ready.

Agree, that is a huge mismatch. One explanation could be that the first production aircraft is nowhere near a certifiable configuration, but they will nevertheless fly it, for initial development, aerodynamics, etc, while in parallel producing up to standard frames that will execute the actual certification flight tests later on.
 
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RE: Comac C919 Faces Another Delay

Thu May 28, 2015 2:00 pm

China thrives when the state leaves the market economy to itself but like us in the west they cant leave well enough alone so are no squandering their wealth on projects such as this. It's an old story.
 
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Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Thu Jul 23, 2015 9:18 am

CFM delivered the first LEAP-1C engine for the first C919 flying prototype.

Image

The C919 is undergoing final assembly in Shanghai, first flight is scheduled for the first half of 2016.

Source
http://www.wcarn.com/news/46/46015.html
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Comac: C919 Assembly Much Smoother Than ARJ21

Tue Sep 08, 2015 7:52 am

Despite several delays final assembly of the first C919 is going smooth, at least much smoother than the ARJ21.

Quote:

While the final assembly of the ARJ21 airframe took about six months, Comac spent only about 3.5 months to put the C919 airframe together. The complex wing-to-body join of the narrowbody meanwhile took only 25 days, Jiang tells Flightglobal in an interview in Shanghai.

...

Jiang admits that even she was surprised by how smooth the fusing of the different fuselage sections went, adding that the panels aligned without the need for additional work due to improved specifications that were given to suppliers early.

The airframer, however, had to reinforce the composite aft-fuselage since this is the first time Chinese suppliers are working with the material, says Jiang.

System integration is the next big challenge. The aircraft systems are due to arrive in October and Comac expects to finish the job before the end of the year. Roll out of the fully assembled aircraft is also scheduled for the end of the year.



Source
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-much-smoother-than-arj21s-416217/
http://www.wcarn.com/news/47/47066.html
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RE: Comac: C919 Assembly Much Smoother Than ARJ21

Tue Sep 08, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Despite several delays final assembly of the first C919 is going smooth, at least much smoother than the ARJ21.

Well, it would be hard to get any worse that the ARJ21. Not a big improvement target to hit.

While getting the structure together is one (did they already start structural testing, fatigue testing?), getting all the subsystems, electrical systems, hydraulics in and communicating is quite another challenge. We can't really judge that from the picture.

I'm not betting any money on EIS this decade . . . .
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RE: Comac: C919 Assembly Much Smoother Than ARJ21

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:36 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
getting all the subsystems, electrical systems, hydraulics in and communicating is quite another challenge

Agreed. I also doubt they can achieve this just within two months.
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RE: Comac: C919 Assembly Much Smoother Than ARJ21

Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):

Unrelated but clearly i've been gone for too long- when did you become a mod? 
Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
System integration is the next big challenge. The aircraft systems are due to arrive in October and Comac expects to finish the job before the end of the year. Roll out of the fully assembled aircraft is also scheduled for the end of the year.

I wonder how various airlines in the west plan to accommodate this into the fleet. I haven't looked at the orders but from what I see this feels like it's not going to sell too well.
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RE: Comac: C919 Assembly Much Smoother Than ARJ21

Wed Sep 09, 2015 10:51 am

This is a nice spin on a production delay.   

Quoting PW100 (Reply 1):
Well, it would be hard to get any worse that the ARJ21. Not a big improvement target to hit.

The ARJ21 is a case study in how command economies can fail big.
Heck, the ARJ21 still doesn't have a production certificate!   

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 2):
Agreed. I also doubt they can achieve this just within two months.

I do not know of any airframer that could complete that level of work in 2 months on the the first airframe of a new type.

The first flight in April or May of 2016 is a pipe dream.

Speculation is already rampant about a delayed EIS. 2018 is certainly too optimistic for EIS. I think 2020 is more reasonable.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...ina-airplane-idUSKBN0NY1E820150514

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 3):
I wonder how various airlines in the west plan to accommodate this into the fleet.

With no path to western certification, it wouldn't be allowed.

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RE: Comac: C919 Assembly Much Smoother Than ARJ21

Wed Sep 09, 2015 3:19 pm

From an older article, this seems interesting:

"The aircraft's windows have also been replaced with smaller standard-size ones, after the manufacturer discovered that its original larger windows affect the strength of the fuselage."

How does one replace windows with smaller ones – after all, aren't the cutouts already there?
 
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Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:29 am

Comac will roll out the first C919 on November 2. While we wait for this event a low quality photo ('sneak preview') of the assembled aircraft leaked out to the media:

Image
https://twitter.com/ChinaAvReview/statu ... 1816493056
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Sun Nov 01, 2015 11:54 am

Interesting blended winglet going on there; looks a tad like the A350 in that respect. I remember reading years back that it was to be available with or without winglets, so I wonder if that's still the case. IIRC it was to be a ~1.8 meter (6 foot) difference in wingspan.

Will be interesting to see how everything proceeds compared to the relatively simpler ARJ21. It's almost hard to believe that the C919 will be rolling out with the ARJ21 still not in service, both from a "it's taken so long for the ARJ21 to EIS" perspective and from an engineering resource standpoint.
 
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:10 pm

G'day

Hmm, I wonder if they are going to do a "Boeing Dreamliner" style rollout   

i.e. with barely more than an empty shell shown to the audience      

The timing does not look right, I guess we will know soon


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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:24 pm

I am actually quite excited about this. It's great to see the roll out of another large airliner, especially one from a country not associated with successful large airliners.
Best of luck to the C919!
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:33 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 2):

After the ARJ-21, we might be in for worse. Remember a very conservative design with little risk is 8 years late. Now they have a design where the competition is much tougher. Demands will be high for turn time, dispatch reliability, and all the performance parameters. Not to mention PIPs.

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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:55 am

That's no bad looking plane in any case. You have to give them that.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 4):
After the ARJ-21, we might be in for worse. Remember a very conservative design with little risk is 8 years late. Now they have a design where the competition is much tougher. Demands will be high for turn time, dispatch reliability, and all the performance parameters. Not to mention PIPs.

The only purpose that these moonshots (to borrow a term from McNerney), which all end in spectacular commercial - if not operational - failure, could serve is to allow the Chinese engineers and the managers of these companies and projects to learn from the mistakes that are made and thereby grow the experience banks of their aircraft design bureaus and manufacturing plants. But that seems to be expecting far too much from China and its aviation industry.

Like I've said here on A.net before, the fact that China doesn't bother to complete and make functioning and operational comparatively simple designs such as the ARJ-21 before throwing themselves into much more complicated projects (first here an A320-sized airliner, and beyond that they have already announced plans for an 787/A350 clone) is a tremendously bad sign in itself. Compare this behavior to how for example Bombardier and Embraer have both started with much smaller and less complicated designs, only moving on to the next "level" of progressively larger and more challening aircraft once they have mastered the current one.
 
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:50 am

I wonder if any non-Chinese airlines will be flying these. One does not generally associate "Made in China" with high quality.
 
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:59 am

I havent followed this progrem closely, is the power Western?
 
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting B727skyguy (Reply 6):
One does not generally associate "Made in China" with high quality.

Well most people think iPhones are pretty high quality  
 
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting ThReaTeN (Reply 5):
Like I've said here on A.net before, the fact that China doesn't bother to complete and make functioning and operational comparatively simple designs such as the ARJ-21 before throwing themselves into much more complicated projects (first here an A320-sized airliner, and beyond that they have already announced plans for an 787/A350 clone) is a tremendously bad sign in itself. Compare this behavior to how for example Bombardier and Embraer have both started with much smaller and less complicated designs, only moving on to the next "level" of progressively larger and more challening aircraft once they have mastered the current one.

To be fair they have designed smaller commuter aircraft so their aviation industry does have some design experience.



The arj-21 fell behind schedule because it was chronically underfunded at first since at the time the government did not consider commercial aircraft projects a top priority.
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:45 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 8):
Well most people think iPhones are pretty high quality

Apparently those people don't know anyone who dropped their iPhone from a foot's height and shattered the glass. Which means they don't have more than one or two people in their circle of acquaintances. However, the reason that iPhones have such incredibly poor build quality isn't that they're built in China. I have a Z1 Compact - made in China - that I have dropped (or thrown..) more times than I can count. Never shattered anything.

Quoting alberchico (Reply 9):
To be fair they have designed smaller commuter aircraft so their aviation industry does have some design experience.

That's wonderful, with the disclaimer that one never knows how much of a Chinese aircraft design is actually designed in China. The ARJ-21 for examples has engines from General Electric, avionics from Honeywell and wings from Antonov. Not counting that the basic design is a copy of the DC-9.

However, the next step up from a small commuter turboprop is a large commuter turboprop, like the ATR-72. Then a regional jet, which China has failed miserably to make (I am referring to the ARJ-21). When you have years of experience making regional jets, like Embraer and Bombardier, you can start thinking about making a competitor for the A320 and the 737.
 
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:31 am

 
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:46 am

and here's the official presentation video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT_6dwfal24

and here's a short video of the project:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWL3YyDxCh4

Beautiful aircraft....

[Edited 2015-11-01 20:49:53]
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:52 am

Not to go off topic but here is a video in Chinese that shows some flight testing of the ARJ-21 if anyone is interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axMb_FBNt3E
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:00 am

Looks like a "Chinese Copy" (only those who have been on A.Net for a while will get that one), of the A320 NEO. Theoretically, China can take any of the airliners they have bought and reverse engineer them. Or, expropriate the Airbus (and soon Boeing) factories within their borders.

Given that this plane is a Chinese plane, made by a Chinese firm, that will be a different consideration. Also, different when they launch a cheaper copy of the A350/787 and A380, etc... A better example to point to is the MA-60, which for the most part has not seemed to create too many hassles for the few operators.

Either way, they need to make sure that there is a regular supply chain for parts as needed and that they can be easily serviced abroad, and the best way to do that is to sell a lot of them. The Superjet was really lucky to get the customer in Mexico as it will make all the difference. China will have to overcome their perceived reputation as a national brand, before any airplane is widely accepted. Right now, the perception is they don't mind putting lead in toys, and harmful enzymes in baby & dog food. People don't want to fly on planes where they think the manufacturer doesn't mind taking short cuts.

To the chap that said the iPhones when referencing quality: This is sort of the issue, it's not a Chinese firm making them, it's a Taiwanese company, under strict supervision of Apple. The glass I think is made by Corning, so if that sucks, blame us Yanks. I've dropped mine from shoulder height too many times and no problems.

Good luck!
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:01 am

Amazing how much the C919 looks like a 787 akin to how much a Tu204 looked like a 757 years ago! Wonder what kind of drawings are on the Comac servers??  
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RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting cheeken (Reply 11):

Now that's a great looking aircraft! What I love about it the most is it's winglets and it's flight deck windshield.


In my opinion, the C919 has great potential. If Comac plays their cards right, this airplane could give Boeing & Airbus a run for their money.
 
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alberchico
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Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:41 am

Here's another video that shows the roll out in more detail:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CttNql_xWG4
short summary of every jewish holiday: they tried to kill us ,we won , lets eat !
 
bunumuring
Posts: 1960
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:56 pm

RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:03 am

Actually, I thought the C919 looked like the CSeries! Bomardier did have some kind of involvement with Chinese aerospace recently, didn't they? I know they had the Russian adventure to build Q400s there, but did they have any contact with the C919?
And also, was Michael O'Leary in attendance at the rollout? Just curious...
Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
gabo787
Posts: 111
Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:24 am

RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:39 am

Quoting alberchico (Reply 9):
To be fair they have designed smaller commuter aircraft so their aviation industry does have some design experience.

What aircraft is the one in the second image?

The C919 is a nice looking bird I wish it well.
 
columba
Posts: 5075
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:12 pm

RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 8:48 am

For me it is an A320 with 757 windows
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
User avatar
shamrock350
Posts: 4783
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 12:38 am

RE: Comac C919 To Roll Out Soon

Mon Nov 02, 2015 9:11 am

Interesting looking aircraft!

The overall proportions make it look a little odd from some angles, enormous engines hanging from delicate wings and what looks like quite a chunky fuselage coupled with a tiny tail. It'll be interesting to see this parked next to an A320 as I believe both aircraft are near identical in size, at the moment the C919 looks much larger to me.

Really like the wings though, especially those A350 style winglets which look very elegant on the ground so are bound to look great in the air.

Best of luck to Comac!

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