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KarelXWB
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Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:46 pm

Comac is making progress on the C919 jet and has started the first iron bird tests. The test rig replicates the layout of the aircraft, with wings and a vertical stabilizer.

Image

First flight of the prototype is scheduled for the end of 2015.

Story:
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ig-394467/
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lollomz
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RE: Comac C919 Iron Bird Stirs For The First Time

Tue Dec 31, 2013 3:15 pm

Maybe this plane will fly before the ARJ-21...... ih,ih,ih,ih,ih.....
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RE: Comac C919 Iron Bird Stirs For The First Time

Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:19 pm

Quoting lollomz (Reply 1):

Maybe this plane will fly before the ARJ-21...... ih,ih,ih,ih,ih.....

Huh? Though very very late, four ARJ test crafts have already flown some 2,000 times, with first flight having taken place slightly over 5 years ago. EIS will be in the last quarter of 2014....ie IF there is no further hiccups. *Touch wood*.
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Wayfarer515
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RE: Comac C919 Iron Bird Stirs For The First Time

Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:46 pm

People starting to say this iron bird is a ripoff of A or B iron bird in 3,2,1....
 
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RE: Comac C919 Iron Bird Stirs For The First Time

Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 3):
People starting to say this iron bird is a ripoff of A or B iron bird in 3,2,1....

Funny, but it looks completely different than the A350 test rig. Don't know about Boeing.
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RE: Comac C919 Iron Bird Stirs For The First Time

Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:30 pm

I wonder... did the ARJ21 have an Iron Bird? I suspect that this is China's first serious attempt at building a complex systems integration platform like this, comparable to what Airbus, Boeing or now BBD have.
 
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RE: Comac C919 Iron Bird Stirs For The First Time

Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:43 am

Never heard of an iron bird for the ARJ21, btw it seems they are in serious testing phase right now, you can follow up the different news at the COMAC website:

http://english.comac.cc/products/rj/ne2/index.shtml
 
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Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Fri May 16, 2014 8:45 pm

Not only the MRJ is making progress through assembly, Comac is also moving forward with its C919 jet. On May 15, the main section for the first forward fuselage of the Comac C919 rolled off the assembly line, marking the completion of all fuselage parts.

The aircraft's forward fuselage, mid-after fuselage, nose, mid fuselage, vertical tail and other parts will be delivered in next few months successively, and the first C919 aircraft is expected to enter the assembly line in the second half of this year.

Image

Source:
http://www.cannews.com.cn/2014/0516/93734.shtml
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Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:46 am

Just a small update on the C919 program: Comac started final assembly of the first C919 nose section.

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Source:
http://www.cannews.com.cn/2014/0731/102192.shtml
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:18 pm

Good to see this aircraft making progress. Here's a view of it from the front:

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RE: Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:23 pm

Nose section of first C919 aircraft rolls out in Chengdu:

http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 2385.shtml

Image

Image
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:05 pm

Looks like it has an escape hatch on the top.
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:27 pm

And,,,,,,, what is the C919? An updated A320!! What's the point?
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Sat Aug 09, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 4):
What's the point?

Learning how to build an airplane this size.
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Sat Aug 09, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 4):

I believe it is more of a C-Series copy
 
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Sun Aug 10, 2014 3:35 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 5):
Learning how to build an airplane this size.

The learning part came with the ARJ21.

Quoting petera380 (Reply 6):
I believe it is more of a C-Series copy

For those of you who seem to have no idea of what the Chinese are capable of, just look at the TELECOMMS sector, the Chinese giants ZTE and Huawei have left its European and American counterparts way behind in R&D, and when I say way behind I am speaking of years way behind.

The same will happen I guess with other industries, although the aviation industry and specially jet engines might be quite a different story, but in the end they'll also get there on sheer manpower and maybe a bit of help from the Russians.

And no, the C919 is not a copy of anything currently flying.
 
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Sun Aug 10, 2014 8:25 am

Looks like a miniaturised version of the 787!
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queb
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RE: C919 Nose Section Starts Final Assembly

Sun Aug 10, 2014 1:30 pm

Since more than 60 years, each new aircraft looks like the previous one... a tube with wings.

[Edited 2014-08-10 06:32:27]
 
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RE: Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:19 am

I was just going to post this in the nose thread but it has been archived.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... on-403086/

Mid-fuse for the C919 completed so there is a delivery ceremony today, then it is to be shipped off to Shanghai next month to Comac's plant. First flight target still at the end of next year.

Image
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RE: C919 Mid-fuse Completion

Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:14 pm

We're seeing some good progress lately, though many challenges are still lying ahead. Comac has a tight schedule: final assembly will start at the end of the year and the jet should fly within 12 months after that.
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RE: C919 Mid-fuse Completion

Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:23 pm

Fingers crossed all goes to smoothly for Comac, it would be good to see another new aircraft in the air.
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RE: C919 Mid-fuse Completion

Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting Wingtip1005 (Reply 2):
Fingers crossed all goes to smoothly for Comac, it would be good to see another new aircraft in the air.

I wouldn't be very optimistic considering that the ARJ21 still hasn't been certified almost 6 years after its first flight. It will be obsolete before it goes into service, if it isn't already.
 
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RE: C919 Mid-fuse Completion

Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting Wingtip1005 (Thread starter):
First flight target still at the end of next year.

Based off the GEnX flight test schedule, this puts the program 15 months behind schedule.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 3):
I wouldn't be very optimistic considering that the ARJ21 still hasn't been certified almost 6 years after its first flight. It will be obsolete before it goes into service, if it isn't already.

Not to mention the C919 has known 'stolen technolgy', e.g., the brakes is highlighted as an example in the required courses to export aviation technology for US companies;t if they have issues their engineers do not know how to fix the problem as they didn't design the hardware or software. This will lead to a longer C919 test program.

I welcome new entrants, but not when they do not play fair (e.g., stealing technology).

The ARJ-21 delays aren't fully recognized. I personally suspect that the ARJ-21 orders will be transferred to Chinese built SU-100 orders... However, the Chinese must certify the ARJ-21 in order to receive FAA approval for the C919 certification...

The C919 should go faster, but I am not expecting even the late 2018 delivery date to be met.

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Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:47 pm

Final assembly of the first C919 aircraft started on September 19. We have seen a lot of progress on the Comac C919 fuselage sections during the past few months, final assembly start is another big milestone for the program.

Image

Press release:
http://english.comac.cc/news/latest/201 ... 7981.shtml
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rj777
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:57 pm

That looks like a really long fuselage!
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:03 pm

So the started final assemble of the C919 on September 19th or 9/19 lol lets hope that's the only cue they have taken from the 787 affinity for a special date 
Must think up a new one soon, slow moving brain trying to get into gear ;)
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:38 pm

Any news about the ARJ-21 status? Who will be the first flying Comac???.....
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queb
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting lollomz (Reply 3):
Who will be the first flying Comac???

Chengdu Airlines

http://www.ecns.cn/visual/hd/2014/06-19/41424.shtml
 
karadion
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:30 am

It looks as long as a 737-700 / A319 at the very least? However where the mid-doors are, I would assume it's just as long or longer than a 737-800 / A320?

[Edited 2014-10-05 19:35:04]
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:35 am

Any chance this will be flown in north america? And what is the layout? 3x3?
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting lollomz (Reply 3):
Any news about the ARJ-21 status?

ARJ-21 certification is expected by the end of the year.
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:53 am

Quoting Karadion (Reply 5):
It looks as long as a 737-700 / A319 at the very least?

It's 128ft long, compared to 123ft for the A320
(and 146ft for the A321)
(and 129ft for the 737-800 and 138ft for the 737-900)

So essentially it's a 737-800 that has the looks of an A320

Wingspans are just about identical to the A320series and 737's, both with and without winglets

I note the C919 has 400 orders, 380 of which are from within China, with 20 for GECAS

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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:02 am

Did Ryanair's superficial 'interest' in a stretched C919 completely die with its 737Max order?
Yes, note the inverted commas for 'interest', but I can't find any evidence to suggest they have totally withdrawn from looking at it or 'advising' on their 199 -seat er needs.
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TC957
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:40 pm

I'm sure it has, that " interest " in the C919 was just really to tell Boeing that there are alternatives out there...
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:01 pm

Comparing the C919 to the A320 reveals a SLIGHTLY larger aircraft which will fulfill the exact mission as the A320.
The only difference being, it is being assembled from component parts that were ALL made in the same country.
And, if (God Forbid...) it has a failure that results in fatalities, the Chinese won't be able to blame Western Imperialists!
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 11):
Chinese won't be able to blame Western Imperialists

Really ?

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detail.html?model=C919
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:24 am

Quoting md11sdf (Reply 11):
Comparing the C919 to the A320 reveals a SLIGHTLY larger aircraft which will fulfill the exact mission as the A320.
The only difference being, it is being assembled from component parts that were ALL made in the same country.

  
It's basically a 737-8MAX  

On the subject of the "exact same mission as the A320" it wouldn't appear to offer the range of an A320NEO (3000nm vs 3 700nm), being slightly larger and a couple of tonnes lighter in MTOW (77t vs 79t).

construction is largely similar

Rgds

[Edited 2014-10-06 21:29:28]
 
astuteman
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:28 am

A late edit for comparison.

The 737-8MAX has a range of 3 620Nm and an MTOW of 82.2t
That's 3.2t higher than the A320NEO and 5.2t higher than the C919

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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:47 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
ARJ-21 certification is expected by the end of the year.

I'm hearing about further delays. It is not a trivial thing to be prime on an airframe. Definition upon definition must be done right. Too conservative, and the airframe will not be competitive. To aggressive or just poor ICDs and delays mount up.

The delays in the ARJ-21 have narrowed its market opening before the MRJ or E2-175 enter the market. MRJ in 2q2017. The E2s start in 2018.

Delays in the C919 have forfeited its time to market lead over the NEO. GE has noted it tests the LEAPx-1C first by plan not need date for the aircraft (LEAP-1A) will drive testing. I think the C919 has merit in design features. But it must execute to get into service and execute to plan and phase in the PIPs.

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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:27 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
I'm hearing about further delays.

Thanks for the update.

Can't say I'm surprised to hear this.
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bobdino
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:52 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
ICDs

What's an ICD?
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Tue Oct 07, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting bobdino (Reply 17):
What's an ICD?

Interface Control Document. It describes the boundary between 2 parts of a system, in particular how they interract. It could be in terms of static mechanical loads, vibrations, data exchanges, power supply, cooling....

-----
[BEGIN engineering geek mode]
The classic way to design a complicated product like an airplane is to break it down into smaller, more elementary parts. An airliner can be decomposed into fuselage sections, wings, pylons, HTP, VTP, environmental control system, flight control system, hydraulic system etc...

The thing is that when you create 2 sub-parts, you also create an interface between these parts. Problem is to manage this interface to make sure the guys developing both parts are actually in line with each other. Taking data exchanges as an example, if A needs airspeed information every 2 seconds in knots, but B sends the data every 5 seconds in km/h, you've got a problem.

This might seem pretty straighforward with this simple example, but with millions of data connections all over the aircraft sent over various types of networks, it's easy to lose control (the first Ariane 5 was lost because of such an issue). With mechanical parts, which include tolerances and could be moving, describing an interface is even more complicated to do properly.
If you don't have good descriptions (ICDs) early on, you have to wait till you mate the actual parts during assembly or testing to discover that they don't match. Then you just have to go back to the drawing board, which is time- and money consuming.

Loss of interface control happened to the A380 (electrical wire interfaces), to the 787 (wing-to-body joint), very likely to the C Series (system data exchange issues involving the flight control system). And that's why there are all these integration simulators & system integration benches, and in earlier design phases there is increased use of requirement validation techniques, model-based system engineering, virtual development, digital mock-ups etc....They provide the ability to easily share and virtually integrate each part while it only exists "on paper" (or as bytes).
[END engineering geek mode]
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RE: Comac C919 Production And Delivery Thread

Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:55 am

In related news, CFM begins flight trials of the LEAP-1C engine.

http://www.reuters.com/article/cfm-engi ... DK20141009
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Viscount724
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 7):
Quoting lollomz (Reply 3):
Any news about the ARJ-21 status?

ARJ-21 certification is expected by the end of the year.

They were saying that a few years ago. When the ARJ-21 program was first announced it was supposed to be in service by 2007. It didn't even make its first flight until late 2008, almost 6 years ago, and it's still not in service. It's already obsolete.
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:14 pm

All true, but they claim to be "very close to certification" now. I guess that must mean something.
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32andBelow
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:27 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
They were saying that a few years ago. When the ARJ-21 program was first announced it was supposed to be in service by 2007. It didn't even make its first flight until late 2008, almost 6 years ago, and it's still not in service. It's already obsolete.

It was obsolete in 2007 as well. At least as a new aircraft.
 
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:47 am

Quoting bobdino (Reply 17):
What's an ICD?

As noted:

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 18):
Interface Control Document.

Most excellent response. Welcome to my RU list.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 18):
If you don't have good descriptions (ICDs) early on, you have to wait till you mate the actual parts during assembly or testing to discover that they don't match. Then you just have to go back to the drawing board, which is time- and money consuming.

   That is the issue. If ICDs are well defined *and* adapted as required, the whole process goes quicker.

Quoting airmagnac (Reply 18):
Loss of interface control happened to the A380 (electrical wire interfaces), to the 787 (wing-to-body joint), very likely to the C Series (system data exchange issues involving the flight control system)

   I am still amazed at some of the definition lacking in the 787 (it was stuff taught to myself in undergrad that 'if you do not get this precise, the whole aircraft will have issues' stuff).

The A380 also had a major software glitch porting Catia 5 to Catia 4. Oops...
The C-series FBW has major software definition issues. Bad enough I am surprised. Pushing by managers who don't know when to set definition and when to push schedule...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):
They were saying that a few years ago. When the ARJ-21 program was first announced it was supposed to be in service by 2007. It didn't even make its first flight until late 2008, almost 6 years ago, and it's still not in service. It's already obsolete.

This I very much agree with. If the ARJ-21 had been in service in 2007, it still would have been a "meh" proposal. I couldn't find any niche it would thrive in and thus sell well over its established competitors. Coming out within a few years of the MRJ and E2... "meh".

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):

All true, but they claim to be "very close to certification" now. I guess that must mean something.

The issue is the ARJ-21 sets the bar for China to certify aircraft with FAA co-certification. Thus the standards must be held. I'm hearing about parts that must be re-designed to meet reliability. Minor parts really... but parts that must have a better certification at actual conditions.

Lightsaber
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astuteman
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:29 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
Pushing by managers who don't know when to set definition and when to push schedule...

Tell me about that one.
I spent all yesterday in our Engineering Leadership conference discussing how not being able to appropriately prioritise between these in 1999-2003 is something we will suffer for until 2023 at least
On the upside, we can actually have that conversation now. It's taken a decade...

Rgds
 
r2rho
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Fri Oct 10, 2014 11:45 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 25):
The issue is the ARJ-21 sets the bar for China to certify aircraft with FAA co-certification. Thus the standards must be held

That's the key point. Even if the ARJ-21 doesn't sell a single more aircraft, and turns out a commercial failure, it is the enabler for C919 certification and must be certified.
I don't think that even the Chinese have any commercial hopes for the ARJ, but it is a necessary experience they have to go through - and demonstrate to the FAA - if the C919 is to have a chance at succeeding.
 
United727
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RE: Comac Starts C919 Final Assembly

Sat Oct 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Is the ARJ-21 the mirror image of the Super 80? If that's so, why wouldn't Delta, Allegiant to name a couple, use them to futher operate a familiar aircraft, albeit a completely different type. Wouldn't there be many similarities?

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