Wisconsin Aviation Thread

KGRB · Sat Oct 31, 2015 9:59 pm

Hello friends,

This is the first installment of, what I hope will be, a series of threads dedicated to Wisconsin aviation. It will be a place where we can discuss news or ask questions that might be interesting, but not important enough to generate their own individual threads.

The first news item that I'd like to share is a proposal to rename GRB.

Quoting Green Bay Press-Gazette:
ASHWAUBENON — When you're an airport, it's sometimes not enough to have a war hero's name.

Austin Straubel International Airport could undergo a name change, under a proposal Brown County supervisors are expected to consider in November.

The proposal would add "Green Bay" to the front of the name, though the airport is actually on the Oneida Reservation in Ashwaubenon and Hobart. It's the brainchild of Jet Air Group president Alan Timmerman, who said the community is losing business because people don't connect the airport's name to the Green Bay area.

More details from the Green Bay Press-Gazette: http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...likely-green-bay-airport/74780492/

And from WBAY-TV: http://wbay.com/2015/10/30/austin-st...al-airport-gets-a-new-name-friday/

Thanks for reading and please feel free to contribute!

copter808 · Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:38 am

Quoting KGRB (Thread starter):
The proposal would add "Green Bay" to the front of the name, though the airport is actually on the Oneida Reservation in Ashwaubenon and Hobart. It's the brainchild of Jet Air Group president Alan Timmerman, who said the community is losing business because people don't connect the airport's name to the Green Bay area.

Methinks anyone who can't figure out that the "GRB" on their ticket means "Green Bay" probably shouldn't be running a business anyway--or even flying as a passenger! Maybe it would be more appropriate to name it "Oneida-Austin Straubel".

One would think there are far more important things for the board to consider.

knope2001 · Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:59 am

Here's what it comes down to in my opinion:

Long, hyphenated names by committee are awful.

Generic names like Green Bay International Airport are boring and dime-a-dozen.

The name of an airport doesn't mean too much -- it's a little bit of character (or non-character). I say keep it as it is.

mtnwest1979 · Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:12 am

Quoting copter808 (Reply 1):
Methinks anyone who can't figure out that the "GRB" on their ticket means "Green Bay"

Well most tickets/boarding passes don't put airport code on them, or the airport name for that matter. I bet most for this example would just have
Green Bay listed as destination.

Here is an idea:
Northeast Wisconsin International Airport serving the Green Bay region.

I agree that there are probably more pressing issues to focus on.

rj777 · Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:08 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 3):
I agree that there are probably more pressing issues to focus on.

Yeah, like getting more non-stop flights and more airlines at MKE!

MKENut · Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:15 am

Funny how there was a big yawn when Frontier brought back MKE - LAS 7 days a week starting 10/25.

Brewfangrb · Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:27 am

Quoting KGRB (Thread starter):

This is a solution looking for a problem type of idea, but it's also just a dumb idea. In fact, I don't even get what it is Timmerman is saying. That private jet owners or those who would charter a flight just look at a list of airport names and throw up their hands, saying "Gosh, I guess Green Bay doesn't have an airport!"?

People look for their DESTINATION (i.e., the city) first. They already freaking KNOW they're going to Green Bay, or the area. Thus, they tell their pilots "Get me the closest you can to X." Is the pilot going to say "Ok, we'll go to Austin Straubel"? No. He says "Well, Green Bay's the best option." I live in the flight path of both runways and I can tell you, during home Packers games, people strangely have not had a problem determining the airport exists, despite its name.

I think a lot of this is ATW changing their name from Outagamie Regional to Appleton International.

copter808 · Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:03 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 6):
That private jet owners or those who would charter a flight just look at a list of airport names and throw up their hands, saying "Gosh, I guess Green Bay doesn't have an airport!"?

A few years back, when working as a police officer, I was taking a "suspicious phone call" report when the caller called back. Think the caller claimed that my complainant had won a large sum of money and they were going to fly a check out to her. Complainant lived in the Chicago area.

When I was on the line with the caller he asked for the name of the closest airport, stating that "apparently there were no airports in Illinois." I later figured out that he must have thought "Illinois" was a CITY, not a state!

bjorn14 · Sun Nov 01, 2015 2:46 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 6):

Did ATW change their name? Must be why NFL teams playing the Packers stay in Appleton.

YXwatcherMKE · Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:34 pm

Quoting rj777 (Reply 4):
Yeah, like getting more non-stop flights and more airlines at MKE!

I have to Agree 100%.
As to F9 new flights, I would be surprised if they are still operating passed 3/30/16. It would be nice if the majors had flights to all of their hubs. And if we could get B6 and a foreign carrier into MKE. Yes I know there's ORD just 91 miles to the south and I dreaming if I think we could see and foreign airline operating regular schedule flights out of MKE but is sure would be nice.
One would think that with all of the growth with the downtown construction that MKE could grow some too.

NWAESC · Sun Nov 01, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 6):
This is a solution looking for a problem type of idea, but it's also just a dumb idea.

Exactly.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 6):
I think a lot of this is ATW changing their name from Outagamie Regional to Appleton International.

You beat me to it...

I happen to think that Austin Straubel (and Truax and/or Mitchell field, for that matter) are much more interesting names than ones that may be used to "increase the brand."

Brewfangrb · Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:53 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 8):
Did ATW change their name? Must be why NFL teams playing the Packers stay in Appleton.

They did. As I noted above, it was changed (within the last year or so) from Outagamie County Regional Airport to Appleton International Airport.

ATW is not even in Appleton and GRB is not even in GRB (in fact, GRB's not really even close to being in Green Bay).

As for Packers opponents staying at Paper Valley, I know there's a story there, but I can't place it at the moment.

KGRB · Sun Nov 01, 2015 9:52 pm

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 6):
I think a lot of this is ATW changing their name from Outagamie Regional to Appleton International.

That was the first thought that came to mind as well. While I think the ATW name change made some sense (I'll explain below), this proposal seems like a waste of money.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 11):
ATW is not even in Appleton and GRB is not even in GRB (in fact, GRB's not really even close to being in Green Bay).

That is correct, however Appleton and Green Bay are the by far the largest and most well-known cities in the region. Nobody, except for locals, know where Ashwaubenon/Hobart (GRB) or Greenville (ATW) are. There's a reason that MSP is the Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport and not the "Fort Snelling/Bloomington International Airport."

ATW's name change was justified because Outagamie County is not a recognizable place (and difficult to pronounce by non-locals) and the airport serves a much larger area than Outagamie County. As a matter of fact, the south-side of the airport is directly bordering Winnebago County and the City of Appleton is technically in three counties -- Calumet, Outagamie, and Winnebago. While it can be argued that ATW serves more than Appleton, it is the best-known city in the region.

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 11):
As for Packers opponents staying at Paper Valley, I know there's a story there, but I can't place it at the moment.

I think it has something to do with hotel availability in GRB on game weekends. I'm not sure when the visiting teams started staying at the Paper Valley Hotel in downtown Appleton, but I know that they used to stay at the Hotel Northland in Green Bay during the Lombardi Area.

Brewfangrb · Mon Nov 02, 2015 2:15 am

Quoting KGRB (Reply 12):
ATW's name change was justified because Outagamie County is not a recognizable place (and difficult to pronounce by non-locals) and the airport serves a much larger area than Outagamie County.

Completely true and completely fair. In this case, you're just replacing a completely obscure place name with a semi-known city name. (My bit was about ATW not in Appleton or GRB not in Green Bay was more joking but your post was very good). The Fox Cities are definitely "mushy" with respect to boundaries, etc.

For me, changing GRB's name doesn't really matter. You know there's an airport in Green Bay, it's name isn't important.

KGRB · Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 13):
For me, changing GRB's name doesn't really matter. You know there's an airport in Green Bay, it's name isn't important.

Especially when the name is usually written as "Green Bay-Austin Straubel International Airport" in most publications. Green Bay is even in the airport's logo.

bjorn14 · Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:49 pm

Should have renamed ATW the Fox Cities Int'l Airport so Neenah, Menasha and Kaukana could get some glory too. I can't remember which airline had all four names in their timetable for ATW.

As far as MKE getting more international service, I see that the new A321LR can get you from MKE-LON.

CO777-200ER · Mon Nov 02, 2015 1:54 pm

There was an article not to long ago about Milwaukee County Exec Chris Abele looking to convert Concourse E into an international terminal.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee...nty-eyes-changes-to-mitchells.html

bjorn14 · Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:24 pm

Quoting CO777-200ER (Reply 16):

How many gates in Concourse E?

badgervor · Tue Nov 03, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 17):
How many gates in Concourse E?

Checking googlemaps shows 10 gates. I think if they did do an international terminal, and that's a big if, they would need to completely renovate the concourse. On a side note, the gate where the RJ is parked (gate E61 I believe), is where we used to park SY's DC-10's. Talk about a tight fit.

http://www.google.com/maps/place/Gen...80516f3a8951443:0xc2256167cceb8334

scutfarcus · Tue Nov 03, 2015 11:24 pm

The GreenBay airport thing is a pretty trivial issue, however it's not without merit. I think the problem is that when it comes up in search engined people might think it's referring to Austin TEXAS. Not the kind of people who read this forum, but the average Joe might be legitimately confused. So there's that

KGRB · Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:49 am

Speaking of GRB, I was looking at their passenger statistics on their website the other day. AA increased enplanements by 19.9% last month, compared to September 2014, and is up 5.9% YTD.

http://www.flygrb.com/sites/default/.../pdfs/Sept%202015%20Px%20Stats.pdf

Delta and United have seen some small decreases YTD. I wonder if it's time for AA to finally up-gauge GRB or, better yet, start flying into ATW?

KGRB · Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting CO777-200ER (Reply 16):

There was an article not to long ago about Milwaukee County Exec Chris Abele looking to convert Concourse E into an international terminal.

http://www.bizjournals.com/milwaukee....html

While I disagree with Abele's "if you build it, they will come" philosophy, I think that turning Concourse E into an international arrivals facility is the most logical way to ease the congestion of the current IAB. With that being said, I still don't foresee a lot of growth in international traffic the next few years -- even with a larger facility. ORD is just too close and too many Wisconsinites are accustomed to driving there for international travels.

910A · Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:56 am

Quoting KGRB (Reply 14):
Especially when the name is usually written as "Green Bay-Austin Straubel International Airport" in most publications. Green Bay is even in the airport's logo.

Back in the mid-70's when I was flying North Central to/from Marquette , the printed tickets always stated Green Bay-Clintonville. I was always changing planes at GRB.

MKE22 · Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:57 am

Quoting brewfangrb (Reply 6):
I think a lot of this is ATW changing their name from Outagamie Regional to Appleton International.

When did this happen??

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 8):
Did ATW change their name? Must be why NFL teams playing the Packers stay in Appleton.

I think it had to do with rowdy Packer fans finding out where teams stayed and constantly pulling fire alarms, making distracting noise, etc. At least that's what I heard on my tour of Lambeau Field.

Quoting YXwatcherMKE (Reply 9):
And if we could get B6 and a foreign carrier into MKE.

Either of those would be a big win in my book, but then again I never thought I'd see AS in MKE.

Quoting MKENut (Reply 5):
Funny how there was a big yawn when Frontier brought back MKE - LAS 7 days a week starting 10/25.

Definitely trying to take that trip before it could potentially get axed. I doubt it will, since WN had MKE-LAS fares over $400/RT almost every time I searched before it was added, but you never know with F9.

mtnwest1979 · Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:43 am

http://www.departedflights.com/GRB79p1.html

Just an observation here. I find it interesting that at the time, GRB had Republic/North Central with over 30 flights/day and small commuter (ironically only nonstops to MSP) with two.
Wonder how many other places had such a high number of flights being served basically by only one airline. Maybe DAL?

[Edited 2015-11-03 17:49:47]

910A · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:10 am

Quoting mtnwest1979 (Reply 24):
Just an observation here. I find it interesting that at the time, GRB had Republic/North Central with over 30 flights/day and small commuter (ironically only nonstops to MSP) with two.
Wonder how many other places had such a high number of flights being served basically by only one airline. Maybe DAL?

It was a well planned operation. They would have the three flights from the Upper Peninsula meet at the same time to exchange passengers, as one went to DTW (with several stops), non-stop in ORD, and Milwaukee (1-stop). Then the northbound flights would meet repeat the same process. The NC flights to MSP all had one stop.

B727skyguy · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:23 am

Isn't it amazing that there was jet service on such short hops (GRB-IMT, GRB-ESC, GRB-CWA, and GRB-OSH)? I love the 15 minute hop from GRB to MTW and the 19 minute hop from GRB to MNM. Now many of those small cities have no commercial air service at all. I have an old OAG from 1981. It's fun to look through there and see what air service used to be.

As an interesting side note to Wisconsin aviation, Wisconsin Central Airlines got its start in Clintonville, WI (CLI). It later became North Central Airlines and then Republic Airlines. The timetables always listed the Green Bay flights as "Green Bay/Clintonville, WI." They never forgot their roots.

KGRB · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:27 am

Quoting 910A (Reply 22):

Back in the mid-70's when I was flying North Central to/from Marquette , the printed tickets always stated Green Bay-Clintonville. I was always changing planes at GRB.

This is because North Central's predecessor, Wisconsin Central, was founded in Clintonville, which is about a 50-minute drive from Green Bay. Northwest continued listing GRB as "Green Bay/Clintonville" on their timetables through the 2000s.

There is a Wisconsin Historical Marker at the Clintonville Airport, commemorating Wisconsin Central's founding there, although it is a little out of date.

910A · Wed Nov 04, 2015 2:46 am

Quoting B727skyguy (Reply 26):
GRB to MNM

Hit a moose landing there, NC CV580 1 Moose 0..

Brewfangrb · Wed Nov 04, 2015 6:51 am

Quoting MKE22 (Reply 23):
When did this happen??

Officially, 8/21. (The board approved the change back in 2014).

http://wbay.com/2015/08/21/new-name-...outagamie-county-regional-airport/

Interestingly, according to Wiki, the County Board DID try to change the name to "Fox Cities Metro Airport" but failed. (At least once--it mentions 3 other attempts to change the name between 2003 and 2011 but it's not clear if that means 3 attempts to name it Fox Cities or 3 attempts to change it, generally.

Quoting MKE22 (Reply 23):
I think it had to do with rowdy Packer fans finding out where teams stayed and constantly pulling fire alarms, making distracting noise, etc. At least that's what I heard on my tour of Lambeau Field.

Hmm. Makes sense.

Quoting 910A (Reply 28):
Hit a moose landing there, NC CV580 1 Moose 0..

A moose? In MNM? Wow. I would not have ever guessed there would be a moose there. When was this?

Side note: The data shows about 12 commerical operations/day on average so far this year but it sure seems like a lot more. I suppose though, I'm fooling myself, considering the traffic is far lower on Sat/Sun than M-F. (I'm just SSE of the terminal and essentially within the flight path of departures on 18 and arrivals on 36 (Just over 1/2 mile SE of the threshold of 18. (And this is most commonly how operations are run on that runway, but not ALWAYS).

Because I'm sort of buried in my apt complex, I don't get the best spotting that I would like.

Some of the coolest? When the Packers play away and their DL charter 763 leaves to go back to MSP or DTW. Or when a visiting team's charter leaves after the game. Certainly the largest aircraft to routinely use GRB.

knope2001 · Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:08 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 25):
Just an observation here. I find it interesting that at the time, GRB had Republic/North Central with over 30 flights/day and small commuter (ironically only nonstops to MSP) with two.
Wonder how many other places had such a high number of flights being served basically by only one airline. Maybe DAL?
It was a well planned operation. They would have the three flights from the Upper Peninsula meet at the same time to exchange passengers, as one went to DTW (with several stops), non-stop in ORD, and Milwaukee (1-stop). Then the northbound flights would meet repeat the same process. The NC flights to MSP all had one stop.

I really thought that was a pretty cool and unique thing as I got to know the industry more as a kid. If you were flying form the UP North Central (then Republic) could get you to four different hubs pretty quickly 3x/day from someplace like Escanaba. But you might well have to first change planes in GRB to get to ORD to get your connecting flight to (for example) San Diego. I wonder how frequently people from those northern cities changed planes in Green Bay.

With very few exceptions North Central/Republic had Green Bay all to themselves for 30 years until the early-mid 80's when Continental, then Midstate, Air Wisconsin, Simmons, United and USAir came in. The closest thing I can come up with is Ozark in Peoria which peaked near 30/day.. But PIA wasn't a banked hub, rather it was a stop on a ton of multi-hop flights serving central Illinois between STL and ORD. I'm not aware of anything close to the banked hub GRB had.

CO777-200ER · Wed Nov 04, 2015 1:51 pm

The chances of MKE seeing TATL service will be slim. If anyone were to try it I would expect WOW or Norwegian to start it. Downtown Milwaukee is really starting to boom with all the construction going on so in the next 5-10 years it could be possible. I don't have any numbers to go off but I do remember seeing that the number of international traffic to Mexico has been very good at MKE during the winter months. With multiple flights to Mexico/Carribean in the winter Concourse E could really help with the congestion.

seanpmassey · Sat Jun 18, 2016 10:24 pm

It looks like construction has started on the new rental car facility at ATW. Part of the rental car lot had been sectioned off, and work had been started on preparing that site for construction when I was returning to my car yesterday.

I'm glad to see that they are doing something new for the rental car companies. It can get very tight at the rental counters because they share the current space with the baggage claim.

CO777-200ER · Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:21 am

I got confirmation the A380 will be in MKE tomorrow doing some winter testing.

mke717spotter · Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:14 am

CO777-200ER wrote:
I got confirmation the A380 will be in MKE tomorrow doing some winter testing.

They're forecasting a record high of 69 degrees for tomorrow! :sarcastic:

Edit: According to MKE's Facebook page its going to be here for a couple of weeks.

maxbaby01 · Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:58 am

I believe it will be the A350 not the A380.

910A · Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:26 am

maxbaby01 wrote:
I believe it will be the A350 not the A380.

On Mitchell Airport Facebook page it sure looks like a A380 to me. :blush:

qf789 · Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:05 am

Please continue in Wisconsin Aviation Thread 2018

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=597313&p=20088999#p20088999

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