A388
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:31 pm

tvh,

It's not just looking at the number of years, new routes and number of aircraft in the fleet. You forget the most important factor which is their load factors through all these years and what their expected forecast is. This determines how many aircraft (how many seats) they need. Looking at the downturn in global travel over the last few years with no clear big boost expected for the coming years, I can see an airline taking a conservative approach! I assume KL knows what they are doing!!!


A388
 
tvh
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:50 pm

A388 wrote:
tvh,

It's not just looking at the number of years, new routes and number of aircraft in the fleet. You forget the most important factor which is their load factors through all these years and what their expected forecast is. This determines how many aircraft (how many seats) they need. Looking at the downturn in global travel over the last few years with no clear big boost expected for the coming years, I can see an airline taking a conservative approach! I assume KL knows what they are doing!!!


A388

KLM had a passengers increase in december of 8% ( http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/c ... lm-in-2016) ( sorry dutch) and they have been growing for sometime, I really cannot believe better use of the aircraft and load factor alone can sustain this growth as both were already very good. They must be in the need of more aircraft.
 
na
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:58 pm

New A350s and 787s, ok, but why would KLM order more of the soon outgoing 777s? Doesnt make much sense at this time.
 
A388
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:06 pm

tvh, you're talking about 1 out of the 12 months of the year and how was the traffic growth over the past 2-3 years? What is expected for the coming 1-5 years?


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Jetty
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:26 pm

KL 2016 vs 2015 passengers carried +6,4% http://www.airfranceklm.com/sites/defau ... va_def.pdf

Meanwhile AF is shrinking, maybe KL can take over some planes from AF :)
Last edited by Jetty on Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:26 pm

na wrote:
New A350s and 787s, ok, but why would KLM order more of the soon outgoing 777s? Doesnt make much sense at this time.


777s are going to remain in the fleet indefinitely...
With this year another two arriving in the fleet (February and September).
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A388
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 2:34 pm

Jetty, the growth of 2016 vs 2015 is good news for sure but where was the growth (which markets/which destinations), how was the trend before that and what are the expectations for the coming 1-5 years?


A388
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:42 pm

PHBVF wrote:
na wrote:
New A350s and 787s, ok, but why would KLM order more of the soon outgoing 777s? Doesnt make much sense at this time.


777s are going to remain in the fleet indefinitely...
With this year another two arriving in the fleet (February and September).


KL has 5 747 full pax aircraft to replace, with just 2 77W incoming. So, it could be quite conceivable KL will place another top-up order for some 77W's. The acquisition cost for end of the line 77W's will be quite low.

Only other option I can think of would be a conversion of their A359 to A350-1000s. Personally, I think the A35K would fit the KL fleet better than the -900 anyway, sitting nicely in between the 787-9 and -10 and the 77W. The 777-9 won't be available in time to replace the last 744s.
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:08 pm

A388 wrote:
Jetty, the growth of 2016 vs 2015 is good news for sure but where was the growth (which markets/which destinations), how was the trend before that and what are the expectations for the coming 1-5 years?


A388


KLM has already announced a new batch of destinations for 2017.
http://news.klm.com/seven-new-klm-destinations-in-europe/
Not to mention the earlier announced routes to Freetown and Monrovia.

The trend before was fairly stagnant, some, but not that many growth (due to lack of performance)
However as results are turning investments are being made.

Personally I do not believe the A350 is coming until I see a KLM blue A350 on the tarmac...
KLM is one of few (maybe the only one) to fly mixed fleet on the 777 and 787, so with 747s and A330s leaving the fleet they have a perfect chance to have one common pilot group, with all the operational flexibility that is included there. Why on earth would they add an extra fleet type, and if they are adding a fleet: why only seven.

Alternately they might order some more A350s for it to make sense...

Cheers
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:29 pm

Yes the A350 to me also seems like an oddball aircraft as they have a predominantly Boeing fleet besides the A330. It will be one nice looking A350 though with the KL colors :)

A388
 
na
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:39 pm

PHBVF wrote:
na wrote:
New A350s and 787s, ok, but why would KLM order more of the soon outgoing 777s? Doesnt make much sense at this time.


777s are going to remain in the fleet indefinitely...
With this year another two arriving in the fleet (February and September).


Thats not what I meant. With outgoing 777s I mean the current types which wont be built anymore soon. Sorry I that was misunderstood.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:42 pm

frigatebird wrote:
KL has 5 747 full pax aircraft to replace, with just 2 77W incoming. So, it could be quite conceivable KL will place another top-up order for some 77W's.
And why not replace a744 with 2 787s, or A350s like others did?

frigatebird wrote:
The acquisition cost for end of the line 77W's will be quite low.

Yes, but depreciation on these late-builds will be high, too, and they´ll be old metal after the mid-20s.

Secondhand 77Ws from EK or some other airline mad for new planes might be the better solution instead of late-build new-builds as an interim measure before A350-1000s or 777-9s might be available. Once EK retires the 77W by the dozen, which will be the case from 2019 onwards, the lease rates will surely go down considerably.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 5:00 pm

na wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
KL has 5 747 full pax aircraft to replace, with just 2 77W incoming. So, it could be quite conceivable KL will place another top-up order for some 77W's.
And why not replace a744 with 2 787s, or A350s like others did?

frigatebird wrote:
The acquisition cost for end of the line 77W's will be quite low.

Yes, but depreciation on these late-builds will be high, too, and they´ll be old metal after the mid-20s.

Secondhand 77Ws from EK or some other airline mad for new planes might be the better solution instead of late-build new-builds as an interim measure before A350-1000s or 777-9s might be available. Once EK retires the 77W by the dozen, which will be the case from 2019 onwards, the lease rates will surely go down considerably.


Also KLM has one of the highest utilization rates on their 777s worldwide.
I don't recall the official numbers, but I believe the 777s fly some 17-18 hours per day, to the 747s 12-13 hours per day, so two additional 777s equals three 747s replaced (roughly).
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:33 pm

A388 wrote:
Yes the A350 to me also seems like an oddball aircraft as they have a predominantly Boeing fleet besides the A330. It will be one nice looking A350 though with the KL colors :)

A388


OK I know the A350 might not be coming to KL for single fleet efficiency reasons. But what I don't get in that scenario is that they are on the AFKL books and someone in the group will have to operate it and that someone will be AF in the form of either mainline or boost. So why should the KL side be super efficient with just a 777/787 fleet and AF have the 777/787/350/380? More so they can be operated alongside the current KL 330 fleet making it a total of 20 aircraft with common characteristics.

Let's not forget that KL have already taken the 350s up in their fleet planning overview including reserving the registrations for them.
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:17 am

A388 wrote:
tvh,

It's not just looking at the number of years, new routes and number of aircraft in the fleet. You forget the most important factor which is their load factors through all these years and what their expected forecast is. This determines how many aircraft (how many seats) they need. Looking at the downturn in global travel over the last few years with no clear big boost expected for the coming years, I can see an airline taking a conservative approach! I assume KL knows what they are doing!!!


A388


What downturn? Global traffic is still growing, just somewhat slower.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:26 am

A388 wrote:
Yes the A350 to me also seems like an oddball aircraft as they have a predominantly Boeing fleet besides the A330. It will be one nice looking A350 though with the KL colors :)

A388


Having the A330 and some rather new ones, shows that KLM is not a Boeing customer only. A bit strange calling the A350 an oddball.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:43 am

Mjoelnir, looking at the much bigger Boeing fleet KLM has of the 737, 787 and 777 the A350 is an oddball next to the A330 of which the -200s are on their way out too.

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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:33 am

A388 wrote:
Mjoelnir, looking at the much bigger Boeing fleet KLM has of the 737, 787 and 777 the A350 is an oddball next to the A330 of which the -200s are on their way out too.

A388

For a decent 777 operator like KLM, the A350 is no oddball at all, but rather the most efficent and natural replacement of the 772 and 77W.
There is so much worries by many people in thsi thread that KLM will have more Airbus going forward and hope for KLM to stay Boeing loyal. In reality airlines has to chose the most efficient fleet for their purposes and hence we see many large 777 operator introducing A350s just as well as A330s being replaced by 787.
For AF/KL, the A350 might well be the core WB 10 years from now.
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:58 am

A388 wrote:
the A330 of which the -200s are on their way out too.

No they're not.
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 11:35 am

[*]
Iemand91 wrote:
A388 wrote:
the A330 of which the -200s are on their way out too.

No they're not.


Like Iemand91 said the A330 won't leave the fleet. They will be refurbished between now and 2018. They will be in the fleet for a long time to come.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:36 pm

Okay thanks, some of the A330-200 already left which gave me the impression the entire -200 will leave. Why has KL decided to keep the remaining A330-200's? And yes, I welcome the A350 to the KL fleet. Looking at the large Boeing fleet I find the A350 to be an oddball aircraft but like I said before, I assume KL knows what they are doing so bring them in. By the way the 777-9 and 777-8 also natural replacements for the 772 and 77W. The only thing is that you have to wait a bit longer to get them. To my knowledge KL has a relatively young 777 fleet so they might be able to wait but AF has older models as far as I know. In any case they can also chose from the A350 now.


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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:12 pm

Until 1 - 1,5 years ago it was KL's plan to replace the A330 fleet with 787-9s as soon as the leases of the A330 expired. The first 4 A332s on short term lease indeed left the fleet early last year. There were also unconfirmed reports AF/KL planned to have an all Boeing WB fleet at KL (and AF eventually all Airbus WB).

But these plans changed. Instead, KL decided to accelerate retirement of their 747 fleet. Not sure why, perhaps the low oil prices make replacing A330s with 787s not so attractive any more, A330s are also much less maintenance intensive compered to 747s. Having a consistent WBC product may also have played a role (originally the A330s would not be retrofitted with new WBC seats, but the last A333 wouldn't leave the fleet until 2020/2021 or so).

And with AF taking delivery of 787s, it looks like the all Airbus WB strategy for AF has gone too (although the AF 787 and KL 787 interior arrangements are remarkably similar, so these can easily be transferred from AF to KL). So the A350 seems to be on the cards again for KL too. But like I said earlier, with both 787-9 and 787-10s at KL, I believe the A350-1000 would be suit the KL fleet a lot better than the A350-900. And when the A350 joins the KL fleet, I'm sure it will not be for just 7 frames, it surely would be an oddball with just 7. KL said themselves they don't want less than 10 aircraft of the same type.
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:42 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Until 1 - 1,5 years ago it was KL's plan to replace the A330 fleet with 787-9s as soon as the leases of the A330 expired. The first 4 A332s on short term lease indeed left the fleet early last year. There were also unconfirmed reports AF/KL planned to have an all Boeing WB fleet at KL (and AF eventually all Airbus WB).

But these plans changed. Instead, KL decided to accelerate retirement of their 747 fleet. Not sure why, perhaps the low oil prices make replacing A330s with 787s not so attractive any more, A330s are also much less maintenance intensive compered to 747s. Having a consistent WBC product may also have played a role (originally the A330s would not be retrofitted with new WBC seats, but the last A333 wouldn't leave the fleet until 2020/2021 or so).


Actually, KLM is refurbishing its A330s with the new World Business Class according to their corporate website. This will be finished in 2018. So it seems that 13 A330s plus 7 A350s would leave KLM with 20 Airbusses.

http://nieuws.klm.com/klm-vernieuwt-de- ... toestellen
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:26 pm

This might be a little off topic but when looking at the large narrow body fleets AF and KL have, do you think they are large for AF to go for the A320NEO family and KL for the 737MAX family or will they still standardize on one of the two? I can actually see AF sticking with the A320NEO and KL going for the 737MAX. What do you think?

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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:42 pm

LewisNEO wrote:

Actually, KLM is refurbishing its A330s with the new World Business Class according to their corporate website.


Yes, this is something directly linked to their decision to keep the A330s longer. What came first (to install the new WBC into the A330s or the decision to extend the leases on the A330s) I don't know :spin:

Not just new WBC, but also Wifi will be installed on the A330s. The modified livery won't be seen on the new A330s by the way. Neither on the 77E it seems (strangely enough, the 77W is getting the new livery).

A388 wrote:
This might be a little off topic but when looking at the large narrow body fleets AF and KL have, do you think they are large for AF to go for the A320NEO family and KL for the 737MAX family or will they still standardize on one of the two? I can actually see AF sticking with the A320NEO and KL going for the 737MAX. What do you think?

A388

I don't think AF nor KL will need new narrowbodies soon, short haul expansion seems to go the Transavia way. Still, both AF and KL fleets are large enough for both 737MAX as A32xNEO. KL will probably go for the 737MAX, although the A321NEO certainly would be a very nice addition for KL.
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:44 pm

744 D-checks in 2017 :

PH- BFN, D-check from end of March 2017 (+/- 7 weeks downtime).
PH- BFY, D-check from end of October 2017 (+/- 6 weeks downtime).
Probably again at Xiamen.

CUR will be operated temporally with 777W , see : http://www.routesonline.com/news/38/air ... hlight=KLM

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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:19 pm

frigatebird wrote:
I don't think AF nor KL will need new narrowbodies soon, short haul expansion seems to go the Transavia way

The opposite is true for KL. In 2016 short haul capacity grew faster than long haul capacity, as did the number of short-haul destinations vs long haul destinations. However this extra capacity is mostly coming from the E190's having a larger capacity than the F70's they replace. So it's correct KL likely won't place a new narrowbody order soon with E190's still being delivered in the coming years.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:44 pm

Jetty wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
I don't think AF nor KL will need new narrowbodies soon, short haul expansion seems to go the Transavia way

The opposite is true for KL. In 2016 short haul capacity grew faster than long haul capacity, as did the number of short-haul destinations vs long haul destinations. However this extra capacity is mostly coming from the E190's having a larger capacity than the F70's they replace. So it's correct KL likely won't place a new narrowbody order soon with E190's still being delivered in the coming years.

KL do't have any E190s on order anymore. The ones left on order are E175s.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:58 pm

Regadering the discussion on the 359: has the seating configuration already been announced? I've Always imagined that the 359 could be used to 'fill' the gap of about 100 seats between the 772 and 77W.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 7:58 pm

I stand corrected. They still add capacity being larger than the F70's.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:21 pm

Jetty wrote:
I stand corrected. They still add capacity being larger than the F70's.


In addition KLM will lease 2x additional B738 starting this summer.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 9:46 pm

frigatebird wrote:
Until 1 - 1,5 years ago it was KL's plan to replace the A330 fleet with 787-9s as soon as the leases of the A330 expired. The first 4 A332s on short term lease indeed left the fleet early last year. There were also unconfirmed reports AF/KL planned to have an all Boeing WB fleet at KL (and AF eventually all Airbus WB).

But these plans changed. Instead, KL decided to accelerate retirement of their 747 fleet. Not sure why, perhaps the low oil prices make replacing A330s with 787s not so attractive any more, A330s are also much less maintenance intensive compered to 747s. Having a consistent WBC product may also have played a role (originally the A330s would not be retrofitted with new WBC seats, but the last A333 wouldn't leave the fleet until 2020/2021 or so).

And with AF taking delivery of 787s, it looks like the all Airbus WB strategy for AF has gone too (although the AF 787 and KL 787 interior arrangements are remarkably similar, so these can easily be transferred from AF to KL). So the A350 seems to be on the cards again for KL too. But like I said earlier, with both 787-9 and 787-10s at KL, I believe the A350-1000 would be suit the KL fleet a lot better than the A350-900. And when the A350 joins the KL fleet, I'm sure it will not be for just 7 frames, it surely would be an oddball with just 7. KL said themselves they don't want less than 10 aircraft of the same type.


KLM having an all Boeing WB fleet and AF having an all Airbus WB fleet makes absolutely no sense. Both AF and KLM need the 77W and A350. Where would the AF long haul fleet be with no 777's ? Take those out and not much else is left besides 10 A380's. The whole point of being a merged airline group is too have the scale allowing both a Boeing and Airbus WB fleets by both airlines.
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:29 pm

What I understand the A350-1000 is a replacement for the 77W and I assume the A350-900 can replace the 772 so the 777 dan be replaced by the A350. The 777 in that regard can be entirely be replaced. Or they can wait for the 777-8 and 777-9.

Please correct me on this.

A388
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:50 pm

AMS18C36C wrote:
Regadering the discussion on the 359: has the seating configuration already been announced? I've Always imagined that the 359 could be used to 'fill' the gap of about 100 seats between the 772 and 77W.

I can't remember seeing it somewhere.

But because the A350-900 is slightly bigger then the 787-9 and the KLM 787-9 seats 30 buisness, 48 economy comfort and 216 economy (294 total)
expect about 320-350 total seats in the KLM A350.

All wide-body KLM jets have about 30-35 business seats and you can fit 30 of those between door 1 and 2 on the A350. Fill the rest of the plane with Y and Y comfort (which is the same as Y but a bit more legroom) which is about 320 seats. Total: 350 seats. Just look at what LATAM has for configuration; just replace J with Zodiac seats and you have the KLM A350. ;)
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:08 pm

factsonly wrote:
Jetty wrote:
I stand corrected. They still add capacity being larger than the F70's.


In addition KLM will lease 2x additional B738 starting this summer.


Coming permanently from Transavia, the newest non-sky interior 737s. Will be configured to full KLM spec. The decision process about a replacement/new type fort the 737 will most likely start somewhere this year has been told internally. So it will take a couple years before we see something new.
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:47 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
AMS18C36C wrote:
Regadering the discussion on the 359: has the seating configuration already been announced? I've Always imagined that the 359 could be used to 'fill' the gap of about 100 seats between the 772 and 77W.

I can't remember seeing it somewhere.

But because the A350-900 is slightly bigger then the 787-9 and the KLM 787-9 seats 30 buisness, 48 economy comfort and 216 economy (294 total)
expect about 320-350 total seats in the KLM A350.

All wide-body KLM jets have about 30-35 business seats and you can fit 30 of those between door 1 and 2 on the A350. Fill the rest of the plane with Y and Y comfort (which is the same as Y but a bit more legroom) which is about 320 seats. Total: 350 seats. Just look at what LATAM has for configuration; just replace J with Zodiac seats and you have the KLM A350. ;)


So if the KLM 350 would seat around 350, would we see it on routes where a combination of 772/77W (and sometimes 789's) are used, such as KUL-CGK or JNB? Or does the demand fluctuate from day to day?
 
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Jan 13, 2017 11:20 am

AMS18C36C wrote:
So if the KLM 350 would seat around 350, would we see it on routes where a combination of 772/77W (and sometimes 789's) are used, such as KUL-CGK or JNB? Or does the demand fluctuate from day to day?

Sorry, that's something I don't know, but wished to know. ;)
Capacity of the A350 will be between the 787-9 / 777-200ER (294 and 316 seats respectively) and the 777-300ER (408 seats) while having the biggest range.
So maybe South-America? Asia? I don't know.


PH-BFD "City of Dubai" is currently on her way to Houston as KL661 again (her previous flight was also to Houston).
She will return to Amsterdam tomorrow expected to arrive at 08:00 in the morning.

Her very final commercial flight is KL611/KL612 to/from Chicago. She will arrive at Chicago tomorrow (Saturday) at 14:20 and will go back at 16:40.
Her last landing at Schiphol will be Sunday morning at 07:10 in the morning...
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Iemand91
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sat Jan 14, 2017 11:22 pm

PH-BFD just left the gate at Chicago ORD. Just about 7 hours of flying KL612 to do and then it's over and out for the busiest airplane in the sky...

https://www.flightradar24.com/KLM48/c2c02b4
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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Iemand91
Posts: 332
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:06 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
A388 wrote:
the A330 of which the -200s are on their way out too.

No they're not.

Looks like I have to correct myself:

KLM blijft investeren in Airbus-vloot

AMSTELVEEN - Ondanks een krimpende Airbus-vloot blijft KLM geld steken in het vernieuwen van de interieurs van de A330. "Deze winter zijn we begonnen met de verbouwing van de A330-200's", zegt topman Pieter Elbers in gesprek met Luchtvaartnieuws Magazine.

KLM beschikt op dit moment over vijf A330-300's en acht kleinere A330-200's. In 2016 werd afscheid genomen van vier A330-200's, die retour gingen richting leasemaatschappijen ILFC en AerCap en tegenwoordig voor het Pakistaanse Shaheen Air vliegen. "Dit jaar verlaten nog eens twee A330-200’s de vloot", zegt Elbers.

In de A330-200's die overblijven wordt het aantal stoelen in de World Business Class teruggebracht naar 18. Daardoor kunnen er in Economy 25 stoelen extra worden bijgeplaatst. Tevens wordt de Economy Class voorzien van nieuw inflight entertainment. "In de winter van 2017/2018 installeren we de nieuwe World Business Class-stoelen. Dat worden dezelfde full flat Recaro-stoelen als in de Boeing 747-400", aldus de KLM-topman.

Summarized: they have already started with reconfiguring the A330's, this year another 2 -200's will leave the fleet; Business class in the -200 will be reduced from 30 to 18 which will make way for an extra 25 economy seats. The A330's will get a new IFE system and in the winter of 2017/2018 the new full-flat Recardo Business seats will be installed.

Some points:
- I can be wrong, but I don't know anything about already reconfigured A330's this winter.
- Recaro does not make the Business seats, they make the economy seats. The A330's will get the B/E Aerospace Diamond just like the 747 and 777.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 16, 2017 2:34 am

747classic wrote:
Another decision to kill the AF/KL/MP cargo department.

Seen the low fuel prices (also predicted in the next years) it would IMHO more economical to keep operating the combi's, providing main deck cargo capacity at multiple destinations.
Lower deck cargo can never replace the seven 10 feet pallet positions of the combi entirely.[Edited 2015-10-30 02:57:28]


Back when KLM started combi service with their 744-206M's, there wasn't much widebody main deck cargo service. Now there are lots of dedicated widebodied freighters all over the world. Perhaps the complexities of operating wife bodied combies is no longer worthwhile. I would assume the KLM 747-406M's have the same requirements to have fuel tank inerting systems in place as every other 747 in order to be able to operate after 2018. Regardless of how cheap fuel might be for the next decade, it's expensive to retrofit a fuel tank inerting system in an aircraft near the end of its economic life.
 
snowghost
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:38 pm

Does anybody know what will replace the B744 on AMS-LAX route? I enjoy watching for KL 602's LAX departure when she turns right after the Coast on the Northern Loop. Flies right over my house.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Feb 05, 2017 10:28 pm

KLM's busiest bird spends her final night at her home base.
PH-BFD "City of Dubai" will depart Amsterdam Schiphol Airport at 09:00 in tomorrow morning (Monday) for Chicago and then onwards to Mojave Air and Space Port in California where she will join her sister PH-BFK and the KLM MD-11's PH-KCD and -KCE and most of the Martinair MD-11 freighters.
This very aircraft most likely has gained the most flying hours of any 747. I don't have the most recent number but based on previous known numbers it must be around 136.000 - 138.000 hours.
Here she was last Friday at Schiphol-East (Source: Farewell KLM Boeing 747 Facebook group)
Very informative and interesting Facebook Group; highly recommend following it.

Image

-BFD is the 6th 747-400 to leave the fleet. There are now 16 aircraft left. Next up was supposed to be PH-BFN but she will get a D-check somewhere in the next month.
Instead -BFD's slightly younger sister PH-BFE will leave next, scheduled for end of May.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:38 am

The end result for PH-BFD "City of Dubai": 137.735 flying hours and 16.761 cycles.
First flown on August 29, 1989 and delivered to KLM on September 29, 1989 that's an average of 13.7 flying hours and 1.67 cycles per day.
(And that's without the maintence and checks which will raise those numbers)

That's the most flying hours of any KLM 747 (including the classics) and most likely the most of any 747 ever.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
diverted
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:02 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
The end result for PH-BFD "City of Dubai": 137.735 flying hours and 16.761 cycles.
First flown on August 29, 1989 and delivered to KLM on September 29, 1989 that's an average of 13.7 flying hours and 1.67 cycles per day.
(And that's without the maintence and checks which will raise those numbers)

That's the most flying hours of any KLM 747 (including the classics) and most likely the most of any 747 ever.


Should be. The previous record holder AFAIK was an ex KL 742 that ended up at Southern Air. (N746SA or N748SA I think, with around 133,000 hours)
 
Ronaldo747
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:37 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
The end result for PH-BFD "City of Dubai": 137.735 flying hours and 16.761 cycles.


Incredible numbers. She should end up in a museum and not being scrapped.
 
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seabosdca
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Feb 08, 2017 7:01 pm

Iemand91 wrote:
That's the most flying hours of any KLM 747 (including the classics) and most likely the most of any 747 ever.


I believe not just any 747 ever, but any commercial airliner ever. I don't think any 767, DC-10, TriStar, 707, or DC-8 ever came remotely close to that, and other long-haul types like the A330, A340, or 777 literally haven't been in service long enough to do so.
 
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Iemand91
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:21 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Iemand91 wrote:
That's the most flying hours of any KLM 747 (including the classics) and most likely the most of any 747 ever.


I believe not just any 747 ever, but any commercial airliner ever. I don't think any 767, DC-10, TriStar, 707, or DC-8 ever came remotely close to that, and other long-haul types like the A330, A340, or 777 literally haven't been in service long enough to do so.

There's a really a high chance she is indeed. But unfortunately I don't have any resource that can provide me with all needed numbers.
Some aviation photo's on my Flickr-page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/iemand91/
 
Aircellist
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:26 am

Could it be the most flight hours overall, all categories? What could have flown more?
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
VolksWaffe
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Thu Feb 09, 2017 7:15 am

Hi all, after over a decade of reading these forums, I decided to make my first post. I played hookie from work on Monday and went to Mojave just to watch PH-BFDs last moments in the air and final landing.

Not sure that I am posting the pictures correctly.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQMRfIUDkGu/

https://www.instagram.com/p/BQOxzM9jw4N/
 
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seabosdca
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Thu Feb 09, 2017 5:59 pm

VolksWaffe wrote:
Hi all, after over a decade of reading these forums, I decided to make my first post.


Thank you for posting!

Incredible how pristine that aircraft looks given that it is likely the all-time world hours leader. KLM maintenance :checkmark:

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