DALCE
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KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:38 am

This morning PH-BFM, a 24y/o 747-406M was ferried as flight KL9861 from EHAM to LETL for storage and probably parting out.
I believe this is the first -400 from KL to leave the fleet.
She was probably the first in line in need of a D-check since KL operates 744's which are even older. PH-BFA is near 27 years of age.

Good news is that the first 789's will enter the fleet within weeks  
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777klm
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:56 am

I will miss these beautiful birds. The 744 looks awesome in the KL livery!
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B747forever
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:34 am

Quoting DALCE (Thread starter):
This morning PH-BFM, a 24y/o 747-406M was ferried as flight KL9861 from EHAM to LETL for storage and probably parting out.

Sad to see her go. Had the pleasure to fly on BFM a few years ago on AMS-LAX.  
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:49 am

PH-BFO will follow soon.
 
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747classic
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:56 am

Another decision to kill the AF/KL/MP cargo department.

Seen the low fuel prices (also predicted in the next years) it would IMHO more economical to keep operating the combi's, providing main deck cargo capacity at multiple destinations.
Lower deck cargo can never replace the seven 10 feet pallet positions of the combi entirely.

[Edited 2015-10-30 02:57:28]
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DALCE
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:00 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Seen the low fuel prices (also predicted in the next years) it would IMHO more economical to keep operating the combi's,

a D-check does not come for free, and I'm sure PH-BFM is nearing the max hours limit for the 747. Low fuel prices don't cover everything. It's time when it's time...
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frigatebird
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting 777klm (Reply 1):
will miss these beautiful birds. The 744 looks awesome in the KL livery!

They will not be gone overnight.   As mentioned, this one was probably slated for heavy maintenance. This year, two 744s will go. Next year 4 more, along with 4 A330s. To be replaced by 8x 789 and 2x 77W. This means at the end of next year KL will still have 19 744s in its fleet (16 pax birds, 3 F's). At this point, KL has 13 more 787s on order and 2 77W's (correct me if I'm wrong please, not completely sure about the 77W orders with leasing companies). But KL will also phase out its A330 fleet (13 aircraft left at the end of 2016).

So, either KL will have to keep some 744s longer than planned to maintain capacity, or order additional aircraft. There are strong rumors KL will not get any A350s, all of them will apparently go to AF. Perhaps KL will get the 787s originally destined for AF?
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747classic
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting DALCE (Reply 5):

a D-check does not come for free, and I'm sure PH-BFM is nearing the max hours limit for the 747

I wouldn't be so sure, she not even near the maximum for the 744 : 165.000 flight hours. . A D-check extends the life of an airframe with 5-6 years with the present KLM aircraft usage.

KLM always maintained their (747) aircraft above the minimum corrosion standard, when the KLM D-checks were performed in house, so now it's time to benefit from that investment.

Having performed several business case fleet studies in the past with KLM, I would like to see the business case at the present circumstances of an additional D-check at a fully owned 744M (in the books for spare part value), versus an operational leased new 789.

[Edited 2015-10-30 05:22:14]
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PHKLM
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:18 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 6):
KL has 13 more 787s on order and 2 77W's (correct me if I'm wrong please, not completely sure about the 77W orders with leasing companies)

AFAIK for KLM it is to be expected there will be 4x 77W (deliveries 2016/2017), plus 15x 787-9 (deliveries 2015/2025), plus 6x 787-10 (deliveries 2020 onwards IIRC)
 
na
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:35 pm

Seems all KLM 744s older than BFM have had D-checks during the past two years. I guess from now on most 744s older than 20 years will not undergo another D-check but will retired when its time.
How many hours/cycles did BFM collect? Must be close to 120.000 hrs, quite impressive anyway.

Btw, VS just returned a young 744 to the lessor. G-VWOW is just 14 years old with probably just half the mileage of the KLM plane which is discussed here. Wonder what will happen with the VS plane, its being offered for lease/sale.
 
A388
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 6):
As mentioned, this one was probably slated for heavy maintenance.

So does this mean that no KL 747 will get a D-check anymore so there will be no other 747's getting the new KL livery anymore? Will PH-BFT and PH-BFV be the only 747's to have the new KL livery?


A388
 
na
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 10):
So does this mean that no KL 747 will get a D-check anymore so there will be no other 747's getting the new KL livery anymore? Will PH-BFT and PH-BFV be the only 747's to have the new KL livery?

I expect at least the two latest built 744s, BFW and BFY, will still undergo another D-check. They are almost 10 years younger than the now retired BFM.
 
TYCOON
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:33 pm

I arranged the financing for both PH-BFN and PH-BFP back in 1993 when they were delivered new from Boeing... Any idea when these are expected to retire?
Very nostalgic to see these beauties every time I am flying through Schiphol.
 
factsonly
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:04 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 12):
PH-BFN

Your PH-BFN has been stuck in SFO with a significant wing fuel leak for several weeks now. The aircraft is in a UA hangar and Boeing is assisting KLM in trying to get this 22-year old bird back in the air, ....but it may the end of her.......

Quoting 747classic (Reply 7):
KLM always maintained their (747) aircraft above the minimum corrosion standard, when the KLM D-checks were performed in house, so now it's time to benefit from that investment.

Sorry, but KLM does not own PH-BFM, as it was leased from CIT. So the benefit you describe is not directly available to KLM in this particular case, as the airline had to fork out loads of cash for lease payments each month.

And that may be precisely why this particular bird is phased out first.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:16 pm

Is nothing sacred?  

I'm glad that this will be a slow wind-down, these 747s have plenty left to give, but it's a sign of of the times that 747s are increasingly endangered. I wonder who of BA, KL and LH will be the last to retire the 744s?
 
747ata32
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:39 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 14):
Your PH-BFN has been stuck in SFO with a significant wing fuel leak for several weeks now. The aircraft is in a UA hangar and Boeing is assisting KLM in trying to get this 22-year old bird back in the air, ....but it may the end of her.......

Most definitely not. PH-BFN is being repaired by Boeing right now. Repair is scheduled to be finished early next week. After buildup of everything removed and required tests, BFN is expected to arrive back on her homebase as early as next weeks weekend.
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frigatebird
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:56 pm

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 8):
Quoting frigatebird (Reply 6):KL has 13 more 787s on order and 2 77W's (correct me if I'm wrong please, not completely sure about the 77W orders with leasing companies)
AFAIK for KLM it is to be expected there will be 4x 77W (deliveries 2016/2017), plus 15x 787-9 (deliveries 2015/2025), plus 6x 787-10 (deliveries 2020 onwards IIRC)

This is correct. I was referring to the situation at the and of 2016, when 6x 744 and 4x A330 will be retired, and 8x 789 and 2x 77W have been delivered. But I could have expressed myself more clearly   
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:01 pm

It'll be sad to see them go. I just flew the new World Business Class to Nairobi last month... A great aircraft and really a quite nice, new seat design, too.
As of Jul 2016 I've flown 192 flights on 43 airplane types with 41 airlines traveling thru 85 airports in 37 countries. I've visited 50 countries with 1 more unique one this year. My greatest achievement was climbing Mt. Kilimanjaro in Oct 2015.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sat Oct 31, 2015 6:30 am

Quoting 747ata32 (Reply 15):

Most definitely not. PH-BFN is being repaired by Boeing right now. Repair is scheduled to be finished early next week. After buildup of everything removed and required tests, BFN is expected to arrive back on her homebase as early as next weeks weekend.

Great news!
That would have been a sad end!


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SiouxFlyer
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:00 am

What A/C will be replacing the 74 on the AMS-SXM route?
 
ajhYXE
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:31 am

Does anyone know how long PH-BFD will be sticking around?
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Prost
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 01, 2015 3:43 am

Quoting 747classic (Reply 4):
Another decision to kill the AF/KL/MP cargo department.

Seen the low fuel prices (also predicted in the next years) it would IMHO more economical to keep operating the combi's, providing main deck cargo capacity at multiple destinations.
Lower deck cargo can never replace the seven 10 feet pallet positions of the combi entirely.

[Edited 2015-10-30 02:57:28]


Well, even LH cargo is having difficulties, and the AF/KL corporate wide difficulties are well known. Unfortunately, I don't think cargo ops are the panacea some see them as.
 
na
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 01, 2015 10:53 am

Quoting ajhYXE (Reply 20):
Does anyone know how long PH-BFD will be sticking around?

If it helps, I know PH-BFC which is just 3 months older than BFD had its last D-check in 2012, so it can be expected that it will fly until 2017/2018. Seems both (and BFA and BFB as well) have passed the 130.000 hours mark this summer, so one can expect they will be above 140.000 hours when retired, as much as I know marking a new record for passenger airplanes then.
 
A388
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:52 pm

What about PH-BFH and PH-BFG? Will those still receive a D-check?


A388
 
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:50 am

Quoting DALCE (Thread starter):

This morning PH-BFM, a 24y/o 747-406M was ferried as flight KL9861 from EHAM to LETL for storage and probably parting out.

Anyone know how many hours/cycles?
First to fly the 787-9 (ZK-NZE, NZ103, 2014-10-09)
 
na
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Nov 06, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 23):
What about PH-BFH and PH-BFG? Will those still receive a D-check?

BFG had its last D-Check exactly two years ago, BFH at the beginning of 2014, so both could fly until 2020.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:53 am

Quoting 747ata32 (Reply 15):

Most definitely not. PH-BFN is being repaired by Boeing right now. Repair is scheduled to be finished early next week. After buildup of everything removed and required tests, BFN is expected to arrive back on her homebase as early as next weeks weekend.

Any sign of her....yet?

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A388
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Nov 06, 2015 11:50 pm

Quoting na (Reply 25):
BFG had its last D-Check exactly two years ago, BFH at the beginning of 2014, so both could fly until 2020.

Bummer so we might not see a KLM 747 in the new colors flying to Curacao  


A388
 
n53614
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:30 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 26):
Any sign of her....yet?

PH-BFN flew out of SFO today as KLM604, a month and a day after the original KLM282 outbound cancelled.
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HawaiianBird
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sat Nov 07, 2015 9:27 am

PH-BFN flew out of SFO today as KLM604, a month and a day after the original KLM282 outbound cancelled.

And PH-BFN just landed on Rwy 18R at AMS as KLM604.
So I would say, welcome back home!   
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sat Nov 07, 2015 4:18 pm

Welcome back, PH-BFN!

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n53614
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:25 am

Quoting HawaiianBird (Reply 29):
And PH-BFN just landed on Rwy 18R at AMS as KLM604.
So I would say, welcome back home!

I am glad she's home now! It was pleasant to see a KLM 747 during the winter schedule, though. A330s are cool, but I prefer the 74.
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YYZflyboy
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 08, 2015 7:27 am

Quoting frigatebird (Reply 16):

Would Delta buy the old A330?
 
factsonly
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:02 am

Quoting YYZflyboy (Reply 32):
Would Delta buy the old A330?

KLM's A330s are mostly leased from ILFC, GECAS and ALC.
 
DALCE
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:24 am

-BFN is already back on the AMS-SXM service today.
Good to have her back!
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,E75,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
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frigatebird
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Sun Nov 08, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 33):
Quoting YYZflyboy (Reply 32):
Would Delta buy the old A330?

KLM's A330s are mostly leased from ILFC, GECAS and ALC.

And the first 4 A330s will go to Shaheen Air after KLM's leases expire.
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factsonly
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Nov 09, 2015 8:12 am

Just to complete our information on B744 operations at AF/KLM:

- The Boeing 747 will be definitely withdrawn from the Air France fleet in January 2016.
 
A388
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:04 am

Quoting DALCE (Reply 34):
BFN is already back on the AMS-SXM service today.
Good to have her back!

Yes, I'm in SXM and took pictures of BFN. When I saw the registration it reminded me of the conversation in this thread about the aircraft being stuck in SFO.

A388
 
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speedygonzales
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:28 am


By far the worst economy class in their longhaul fleet.
Ignorance kills. :tombstone:
 
na
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Mon Nov 09, 2015 11:36 am

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 38):
By far the worst economy class in their longhaul fleet.

Bad.

The 744 offers the best Businessclass compartments in the KLM fleet.

And, btw, economy on the A330 at least isn´t better than on the 744.
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting na (Reply 39):
And, btw, economy on the A330 at least isn´t better than on the 744.

2-4-2 on the A330 is better than 3-4-3 on the 747. The 2-abreast seats are much nicer for couples travelling together, and only a 25% chance of a middle seat, compared to 40% on the 747. The 747 is certainly better than a 10-abreast 777 (or a 9-abreast 787) but given a choice I would take the 8-abreast A330 unless a 7-abreast 767 was also an option.
 
aerokiwi
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:27 am

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 38):
By far the worst economy class in their longhaul fleet.

KL 744s in economy have always been abysmal. Beautiful on the oputside, just bloody awful on the interior.

Quoting na (Reply 39):
And, btw, economy on the A330 at least isn´t better than on the 744.

Yeesh. Another reason to avoid KL altogether.
 
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seabosdca
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Nov 10, 2015 4:54 am

130,000 hours?   

The 747 has proven a ridiculously durable bird in service, even if the later heavy checks get expensive. Can't wait to see how many hours the highest of BFA/BFB/BFC ends up with on retirement.
 
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EPA001
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:35 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 41):
KL 744s in economy have always been abysmal. Beautiful on the oputside, just bloody awful on the interior.

Too bad that their product in economy is not up to speed with the competition. The new birds will hopefully bring the KLM-product there where it should be.

In a couple of years the B747 will not be seen in the easily recognisable KLM-livery. That will take some time getting used to when I am near or at AMS. And it will be a bit more boring sadly enough.
 
MOW
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Tue Nov 10, 2015 10:58 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 41):
KL 744s in economy have always been abysmal. Beautiful on the oputside, just bloody awful on the interior.

What's abysmal / bloody awful with KL 744s in economy? Just asking.
 
Viscount724
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting mow (Reply 44):
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 41):
KL 744s in economy have always been abysmal. Beautiful on the oputside, just bloody awful on the interior.


What's abysmal / bloody awful with KL 744s in economy? Just asking.

Same question. I've flown KL 744s several times and have always found their Y class product as good or better than any other 744 operator. Also excellent on-time performance, always clean aircraft inside and out, and AMS still ranks as the best connecting hub in Europe in my opinion.

Would be interested to know what aerokiwi finds abysmal and bloody awful about KL 744s. That's certainly never been my experience. One 747 in Y class is much like any other in terms of the hard product..
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:41 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 45):

Same question. I've flown KL 744s several times and have always found their Y class product as good or better than any other 744 operator. Also excellent on-time performance, always clean aircraft inside and out, and AMS still ranks as the best connecting hub in Europe in my opinion.

Would be interested to know what aerokiwi finds abysmal and bloody awful about KL 744s. That's certainly never been my experience. One 747 in Y class is much like any other in terms of the hard product..

You took the words out of my mouth!

Quoting DALCE (Reply 34):

-BFN is already back on the AMS-SXM service today.
Good to have her back!

Amen!

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MadameConcorde
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:53 am

Any idea when the final KLM B747-400 flight AMS to SXM (and return) will be taking place?
Some say October 28. Others say December 27. I looked up the KLM website to no avail.
Anyone here have more precise information? Is there a firm scheduled date?
Thank you very much in advance for your answers.
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TWA772LR
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:42 pm

How much longer will the combis stick around? The lineup at terminal D in IAH is getting increasingly boring with the number of 777s growing here.
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ORDSpotter7
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Re: KLM Started Phase Out Of The 747-400

Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:56 pm

Hopefully ORD will start to see the 77W

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