Airbus A320neo family production thread - 2015-2017 (part 7)

Richard28 · Mon Oct 10, 2016 12:47 pm

Balerit wrote:
What exactly are they applying as a protective coat and how is it removed without damaging the paint underneath?

From the picture, it does not look like there is paint underneath?

speedygonzales · Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:44 pm

Does anyone know what F-WNEW is up to across the pond?
https://fr24.com/AIB452/

Olddog · Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:07 pm

Going to McKinley Climatic Laboratory ?

FBWFTW · Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:59 pm

Anyone know if/when VX is supposed to get their A320NEO order? I recall them being the US launch customer-but obviously now that's gonna be NK and Frontier. In addition is there a timeline/production list somewhere on the internet for AA/B6 and/or any other American operators? I'm looking forward to getting the chance to fly on a Neo as soon as one gets to the states! (NOT on NK tho)

speedygonzales · Mon Oct 10, 2016 3:54 pm

Olddog wrote:
Going to McKinley Climatic Laboratory ?

I thought cold testing was done, and Quebec doesn't seem like a logical stopover if that were the case.

KarelXWB · Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:11 am

SAS' first A320neo, MSN 7290, made its first flight yesterday.

See https://flic.kr/p/M7Pbd9

Bostrom · Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:07 am

KarelXWB wrote:
SAS' first A320neo, MSN 7290, made its first flight yesterday.

See https://flic.kr/p/M7Pbd9

And parts of it can be seen on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7SA7ld3tJs

starbucks · Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:18 am

FBWFTW wrote:
Anyone know if/when VX is supposed to get their A320NEO order? I recall them being the US launch customer-but obviously now that's gonna be NK and Frontier. In addition is there a timeline/production list somewhere on the internet for AA/B6 and/or any other American operators? I'm looking forward to getting the chance to fly on a Neo as soon as one gets to the states! (NOT on NK tho)

I believe US launch customer was the idea untill VX deferred their order from first delivery in 2016 to first delivery in 2020 back in 2012 I believe.
In 2015 VX signed a lease contract (forgot who is the lessor though) for 10 A321neo's for deliveries starting early 2017.

As for the production list, I try to maintain one in my flight test tracking logbook. The link can be found in my signature, then just click on the production list tab

StTim · Tue Oct 11, 2016 10:23 am

After all the initial concerns about start up time etc - do we have any recent feedback on the in service performance of the neos with the two different engine types?

FBWFTW · Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:25 am

starbucks wrote:
FBWFTW wrote:
Anyone know if/when VX is supposed to get their A320NEO order? I recall them being the US launch customer-but obviously now that's gonna be NK and Frontier. In addition is there a timeline/production list somewhere on the internet for AA/B6 and/or any other American operators? I'm looking forward to getting the chance to fly on a Neo as soon as one gets to the states! (NOT on NK tho)

I believe US launch customer was the idea untill VX deferred their order from first delivery in 2016 to first delivery in 2020 back in 2012 I believe.
In 2015 VX signed a lease contract (forgot who is the lessor though) for 10 A321neo's for deliveries starting early 2017.

As for the production list, I try to maintain one in my flight test tracking logbook. The link can be found in my signature, then just click on the production list tab

Thanks so much!

Erebus · Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:49 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
rbrunner wrote:
Yet QR just canceled another 2 A320neo aircraft, making a total of 4 cancellations.

With QR cancelling aircraft already built, at this stage is Airbus continuing to build other frames for them?

lightsaber · Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:57 pm

Flyglobal wrote:
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 75):
And another interesting quote from Tom Williams:

Quote:
Airbus COO says working through GTF issues might have been easier under old IAE construct with Rolls-Royce providing more technical depth

Via http://twitter.com/R_Wall
This sounds to me that P&W needed some time and skill suport to actually understand and solve the problem.
Can also be that they needed a strong supplier follow up to even accept it.

I red out of it that he thinks that at least RR may work different in such critical situations.

Lightsaber? could we hear your opinion to that comment? You may have long high sensitive ears at times.

Flyglobal[Edited 2016-06-01 13:29:35]

Pratt is not as good at coordinating manufacturing or changes as RR or GE to vendors. I also think RR would have added a test point to find the bearing issue earlier.

That said, typically joint engines enter service smoother as two organizations are finding each other's errors. The downside is fewer PIPs (never can they agree,). GE avoids PIPs more than other vendors. With the V2500, the PIPs happened oncePratt bought out RR. CFM is still behind on a CFM-56-5 (A320) PIP as the two couldn't agree to the business case which did not make Airbus happy as the -7 (737 engine) received the PIP.

EK on the A380 switched to RR as Pratt/GE couldn't agree on a GP7200 PIP when RR added *another* PIP just to win the order!

GE does a better job solo, but is far worse agreeing to upgrade (PIP) unless competition forces them. RR and Pratt are *far* more likely individually to PIP, but the IAE contract was setup poorly to reach agreement jointly.

Just my two cents.

Lightsaber

Correction, mistyped GE when it should have been RR

KarelXWB · Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:08 pm

speedygonzales wrote:
Does anyone know what F-WNEW is up to across the pond?
https://fr24.com/AIB452/

Per Facebook:

F-WNEW Airbus A320-251WL "NEO" paid us a visit in Quebec city yesterday. On a technical stop before heading to Mexico to conduct high level tests for the certification of the CFM International LEAP-1A engines.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/dutchav ... 362597514/

StTim · Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:11 pm

Presume the LEAP-1A can only be used at low level airports at the moment then.

KarelXWB · Tue Oct 11, 2016 9:18 pm

It may be the reason why Frontier's first A320neo is stuck at the delivery centre for over a month now. The plane got its final registration applied but never left the nest.

1st Airbus A320 Neo Frontier N301FR by Jujug Spotting, on Flickr

KarelXWB · Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:14 am

Avianca Brasil is getting their first A320neo today:

Airbus A320 -251N 7175 PR-OBD Avianca Brasil delivery 11-12oct16 TLS-SID-POA ex F-WWDJ

Pie11e · Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:06 am

StTim wrote:
Presume the LEAP-1A can only be used at low level airports at the moment then.

Not high enough ?

"Airbus has successfully completed A320neo's high altitude flight tests at Daocheng Yading Airport, world's highest commercial airport.
On April 6, the A320neo, Registration D-AVVB (MSN6642), touched down at Chengdu Shuangliu International Airport, marking its official debut in China.
The eco-friendly A320neo, powered by CFM International's LEAP-1A engines, made stop at Lijiang on Thursday before flying to Daocheng Yading, at a maximum altitude of 4,411 meters"
http://www.chinaaviationdaily.com/news/51/51858.html

StTim · Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:11 am

So one wonders why it is back at a high altitude airport. Unless of course this is testing the compressor changes.

mjoelnir · Thu Oct 13, 2016 9:29 am

Pie11e wrote:
StTim wrote:
Presume the LEAP-1A can only be used at low level airports at the moment then.

Not high enough ?

"Airbus has successfully completed A320neo's high altitude flight tests at Daocheng Yading Airport, world's highest commercial airport.
On April 6, the A320neo, Registration D-AVVB (MSN6642), touched down at Chengdu Shuangliu International Airport, marking its official debut in China.
The eco-friendly A320neo, powered by CFM International's LEAP-1A engines, made stop at Lijiang on Thursday before flying to Daocheng Yading, at a maximum altitude of 4,411 meters"
http://www.chinaaviationdaily.com/news/51/51858.html

That does not preclude that something was found while testing in China and changes were made, that have to be tested again.

I think we have to wait for the compressor change, the time frame for that was a year.

KarelXWB · Fri Oct 14, 2016 7:35 am

Spirit just took delivery of their second A320neo (MSN 6907):

https://fr24.com/NKS9902/b4df6d7

Airbus A320 -271N 6907 N902NK Spirit Airlines delivery 14oct16 TLS-YYR-FLL ex F-WWBR

lightsaber · Fri Oct 14, 2016 1:19 pm

I'm hearing just enough on the LEAP-1A compressor issue to be dangerous. So I'll speculate on what is known. The low compressor been is pinned open. This reduces thrust for hot/high, but shouldn't be an issue for a 33k issue running on the 27k platform (A320NEO). Unless something was found in China. Certification tests are brutal in that getting a conditional pass is unlikely.

So it might be the LEAP-1A isn't certified for high altitude.

CFM needs the compressor fix. A year wait isn't a big deal unless there is an altitude limit.

Lightsaber

Late edit:. Congrats to Spirit on their second NEO.

Lightsaber

KarelXWB · Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:07 pm

Well there must be a reason why Frontier's first A320neo with CFM engines remains stranded at the delivery centre.

KarelXWB · Fri Oct 14, 2016 9:24 pm

Meanwhile NEO activities keep increasing.

1) SAS MSN 7290, CFM powered, second flight yesterday. Delivery at the end of the month.

http://fr24.com/AIB290B/

2) Air Astana MSN 7124, P&W powered, ferried XFW-TLS after cabin fit. Wil be prepared for delivery.

http://fr24.com/AIB03BM/b49ada5

3) VivaAerobus MSN 7107, P&W powered, ferried TLS-XFW for cabin fit.

https://flic.kr/p/N771uM

4) Azul MSN 7186, CFM powered, second flight. To be delivered soon.

https://flic.kr/p/Madfcx

5) IndiGo MSN 7053, P&W powered, moved to TLS delivery centre.

https://twitter.com/atterseeluftfah/sta ... 8735514624

6) AirAsia MSN 7195, CFM powered, engines installed and runway tests.

https://flic.kr/p/M9VPdY

7) GoAir MSN 7172, P&W powered, ferried TLS-XFW for cabin fit.

https://flic.kr/p/M9rK2g

8) China Southern MSN 7129, P&W powered, first flight.

http://www.flightradar24.com/AIB01DP/b43ff9a

9) Volaris MSN 7102, P&W powered, engines installed.

https://youtu.be/i6C_z6K4MSc

10) Frontier MSN 7181, CFM powered, ferried TLS-XFW for cabin fit.

https://flic.kr/p/MPP793

KarelXWB · Sat Oct 15, 2016 1:41 pm

Spirit confirmed the fuel burn savings of 15% during the delivery flight:

Spirit says on delivery flight from to FLL, they recorded 15.3% fuel burn with @prattandwhitney PurePower GTF engines.

https://twitter.com/airwayslive/status/ ... 9845017600

seat64k · Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:32 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Spirit confirmed the fuel burn savings of 15% during the delivery flight:

Do you know what this is compared to? I assume the delivery flight would be empty?

KarelXWB · Sat Oct 15, 2016 2:34 pm

Compared to the A320ceo delivery flights.

lightsaber · Sat Oct 15, 2016 6:30 pm

To think, the NEO advantage should grow with payload (higher percentage fuel savings). This is due to the PW1100G being more optimized for A321 thrust levels (including the increase to 35k).

Lightsaber

speedygonzales · Tue Oct 18, 2016 10:46 am

When can we expect to see the first A321 for a customer? Is Qatar still scheduled to be the launch operator?

mjoelnir · Tue Oct 18, 2016 11:56 am

We have now heard of 17% fuel burn advantage from Lufthansa and Spirit gets their second A320-271N and talks about 15,3 % fuel burn difference between delivery flights of the ceo and neo. There is no comment out there regarding the fuel burn of the A320neo LEAP after delivery of the seventh frame.

The first customer A321-271N is for Qatar and expected in January 2017 to come out of production.

Clydenairways · Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:58 pm

Apart from the engines, are there any other external differences between the Neo and classic 320. Any aerodynamic improvements? (Apart from winglets)

Revelation · Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:46 pm

Interesting content in https://leehamnews.com/2016/10/17/ponti ... more-21176 :

Pratt & Whitney has production solutions for the initial shortcomings of its GTF. But LNC is told there is another issue that crops up in the extreme heat in Doha, Qatar’s home base. Until this is fixed, LNC is told Qatar won’t accept any A320neos.

The in-production solution may not be available until well into next year, LNC is told.

This long a delay gives Qatar the ability to cancel the entire Airbus order, LNC is told. But is Al-Baker really willing to wait until 2018 to receive any new narrow-body airpalnes?

Al-Baker is well-known for making U-turns in his positions. In this case, he’s canceled four airplanes already, but then says he won’t cancel the contract. It’s not at all impossible that he could make another U-Turn and cancel the entire contract if Boeing can open the delivery slots.

Ahh, the joys of having AAB as a launch customer!

WIederling · Tue Oct 18, 2016 3:41 pm

N14AZ wrote:
Quoting Someone83 (Reply 48):Apparently some water testing, but not sure what kind as I've read both water ingestion and wet runway?
Hmmm, you would think Northern Germany is an ideal place to test wet runways, rather than Southern France

The "rain scape" here tends to be dominated by light to medium strength drizzle.
So you will be oozeingly wet all the time while it is never sufficient to allow water ingestion tests.

WIederling · Tue Oct 18, 2016 4:00 pm

Clydenairways wrote:
Apart from the engines, are there any other external differences between the Neo and classic 320. Any aerodynamic improvements? (Apart from winglets)

Nothing really visible.
One would probably not be able to differentiate the new optional "short field" wing root fairing from the old one either.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... od-a320neo

keesje · Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:36 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Spirit confirmed the fuel burn savings of 15% during the delivery flight:

Spirit says on delivery flight from to FLL, they recorded 15.3% fuel burn with @prattandwhitney PurePower GTF engines.

https://twitter.com/airwayslive/status/ ... 9845017600

Did they have the same route, load, wind and temperatures?

ikolkyo · Tue Oct 18, 2016 5:44 pm

keesje wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
Spirit confirmed the fuel burn savings of 15% during the delivery flight:

Spirit says on delivery flight from to FLL, they recorded 15.3% fuel burn with @prattandwhitney PurePower GTF engines.

https://twitter.com/airwayslive/status/ ... 9845017600

Did they have the same route, load, wind and temperatures?

Doubt they went into that much detal, just comparing the route vs a 320ceo.

KarelXWB · Wed Oct 19, 2016 8:06 am

Azul's first A320neo MSN 7186 got its final registration PR-YRA applied. Delivery should be soon.

Parked behind the A350 at the delivery centre is MSN 7053, IndiGo's 11th A320neo (to be VT-ITM).

Msn46 B-LRF 18/10/2016 by A380_TLS_A350, on Flickr

KarelXWB · Wed Oct 19, 2016 2:56 pm

Frontier finally takes delivery of its first A320neo.

Frontier Airlines, headquarters in Denver, Colorado (U.S.), took delivery today of its first A320neo. Frontier is the first U.S. airline to receive an A320neo with CFM engines, and the aircraft is the first of 80 A320neo Family aircraft the low-cost carrier has ordered. All of Frontier’s A320neo Family aircraft will be powered by CFM International LEAP-1A engines.

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-e ... t-a320neo/

lostsound · Wed Oct 19, 2016 3:38 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Azul's first A320neo MSN 7186 got its final registration PR-YRA applied. Delivery should be soon.

This is pretty big for Azul as it will be their first ever A320. Will they place it on their current network or do they plan to expand to new destinations? Does anyone know?

Omykron · Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:02 pm

Revelation wrote:
Interesting content in https://leehamnews.com/2016/10/17/ponti ... more-21176 :

Pratt & Whitney has production solutions for the initial shortcomings of its GTF. But LNC is told there is another issue that crops up in the extreme heat in Doha, Qatar’s home base. Until this is fixed, LNC is told Qatar won’t accept any A320neos.

Ahh, the joys of having AAB as a launch customer!

does anyone knows what is the new problem of the engines?

Someone83 · Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:54 am

Norwegian expect to take delievery of 2 A320neo in 2016, down from previously announced 4 aircraft. All to be leased to HK Express

sirtoby · Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:11 am

Omykron wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Interesting content in https://leehamnews.com/2016/10/17/ponti ... more-21176 :

Pratt & Whitney has production solutions for the initial shortcomings of its GTF. But LNC is told there is another issue that crops up in the extreme heat in Doha, Qatar’s home base. Until this is fixed, LNC is told Qatar won’t accept any A320neos.

Ahh, the joys of having AAB as a launch customer!

does anyone knows what is the new problem of the engines?

No problem with the engine, it's in another area...

StTim · Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:19 am

Hydraulic temperature I believe.

KarelXWB · Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:43 pm

lightsaber wrote:
To think, the NEO advantage should grow with payload (higher percentage fuel savings). This is due to the PW1100G being more optimized for A321 thrust levels (including the increase to 35k).

Lightsaber

Well you are right. On the first revenue flights Spirit calculated a 16% fuel burn savings:

Spirit Airlines calculated that on that 2,000 mile flight, the new aircraft saved about 422 gallons of fuel compared with the previous model. Performance on other aircraft also confirms that the engine reduces fuel burn by 16 percent, lowers emissions by 50 percent and reduces the noise footprint by 75 percent.

http://www.hartfordbusiness.com/ARTICLE ... /161019938

Revelation · Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:13 pm

StTim wrote:
Hydraulic temperature I believe.

Some googling brings us to http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2016/04/27/ ... bled-past/

In addition to the noise issue, some neos are also experiencing “excess hydraulic temperatures,” which are problematic in high temperature climates. Reacting to this issue, Qatar Airways’ outspoken CEO Akbar al-Baker criticized both Pratt & Whitney, who manufactures the PW 1100G Geared Turbofan (GTF) that powers the A320neo, and Airbus for “inadequately” testing the GTF in warm climates such as the Gulf region.

KarelXWB · Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:19 pm

That was in April this year and should be resolved by now.

3. Higher engine temperatures :

- Another problem, related to higher engine temperatures, affected the A320neo’s hydraulic system.
- The problem, which was belatedly uncovered during flight-testing, led Airbus initially to limit the aircraft to an ambient temperature of 50C, which threatened to restrict the type’s operation in hot climates.
- The limit now has been raised to 55C, which Roewe says should be sufficient for the aircraft to cope easily with any Middle Eastern environment, with 'no overheat' of the hydraulic system.

Ref https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ag-426297/

rbrunner · Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:38 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
That was in April this year and should be resolved by now.

3. Higher engine temperatures :

- Another problem, related to higher engine temperatures, affected the A320neo’s hydraulic system.
- The problem, which was belatedly uncovered during flight-testing, led Airbus initially to limit the aircraft to an ambient temperature of 50C, which threatened to restrict the type’s operation in hot climates.
- The limit now has been raised to 55C, which Roewe says should be sufficient for the aircraft to cope easily with any Middle Eastern environment, with 'no overheat' of the hydraulic system.

Ref https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ag-426297/

That's why I don't understand why QR are not getting their neos.

KarelXWB · Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:58 pm

No idea, but as someone else pointed out:

Pelly wrote:
Hint: QR has made US$288m in compensation from suppliers in 2015 and 2016, and QR's contracts are more robust and customised than typical contracts.

KarelXWB · Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:51 am

Some positive news regarding production ramp-up:

Airbus has taken delivery of the first Pratt & Whitney PW1100G engine assembled on the line of German manufacturer MTU Aero Engines.

The €15 million line in Munich has been developed as part of the ramp-up effort for the re-engined type.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-430607/

KarelXWB · Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:23 am

SAS is getting their first A320neo today.

Airbus A320 -251N 7290 LN-RGL SAS delivery 21oct16 XFW-ARN ex D-AXAF

breiz · Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:10 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Frontier finally takes delivery of its first A320neo.

Frontier Airlines, headquarters in Denver, Colorado (U.S.), took delivery today of its first A320neo. Frontier is the first U.S. airline to receive an A320neo with CFM engines, and the aircraft is the first of 80 A320neo Family aircraft the low-cost carrier has ordered. All of Frontier’s A320neo Family aircraft will be powered by CFM International LEAP-1A engines.

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/news-e ... t-a320neo/

So, it is now officially confirmed, Airbus has at least one white tail... "Wilbur".

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net