Airbus Launches A320/A321 P2F Program

Ab345 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:12 am

Today at the Paris Air Show and with deliveries in 2018

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... ramme.html

Polot · Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:16 am

Let's hope they stick with it this time.

r2rho · Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:24 am

...or should we say RE-launches, since the original P2F was cancelled some years ago.
I guess that with the NEO coming soon, Airbus now sees a stronger business case for conversion of CEO's than when the original P2F was cancelled.

This announcement carries some industrial implications too, as Airbus is effectively offloading its EFW conversion center to ST Aerospace.

By the way, Airbus/ST are not the only ones to see a revived business case, and are in fact late to the party as PacAvi has already started conversions:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ghter-conversion-starts-at-408346/

mwhcvt · Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:36 pm

I wonder if West Air will be interested this time around I'm sure they were the launch customer for the orginal launch of this program...

cougar15 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:45 pm

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 3):
I wonder if West Air will be interested this time around I'm sure they were the launch customer for the orginal launch of this program

TNT was definetly interested till it got canx. I just wonder how the Integrators would feel about the containerized bellies. it kinda takes away a little flexibility for their type of operations! other than that, a great A/C , lets hope it happens this time

Stitch · Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:53 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 4):
I just wonder how the Integrators would feel about the containerized bellies. it kinda takes away a little flexibility for their type of operations!

Is the use of LD3-45s mandatory (as in the belly holds will not be able to take non-containerized cargo)?

mwhcvt · Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:05 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):

Not all A32X are containerised it's a customer option as this was something BA who do operate containerised A32X face when taking over BD who used bulk load, and this is why as I understand all the former BD frames were eventually transferred to LGW

mjoelnir · Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 4):
I just wonder how the Integrators would feel about the containerized bellies. it kinda takes away a little flexibility for their type of operations! other than that, a great A/C , lets hope it happens this time

Why should it? All wide body frames have containerized bellies, nobody talks about "loss of flexibility" there. Could a containerized belly add flexibility?

cougar15 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:40 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 7):
Why should it? All wide body frames have containerized bellies, nobody talks about "loss of flexibility" there. Could a containerized belly add flexibility?

because Integrators fill them with lots of Long & ugly freight (so no good containerized) and loads of bags full of documents. and in that enviroment, Containers hinder flexibility. again, I was specifically reffering to Integrators, not freight Airlines.

mjoelnir · Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 8):
because Integrators fill them with lots of Long & ugly freight (so no good containerized) and loads of bags full of documents. and in that enviroment, Containers hinder flexibility. again, I was specifically reffering to Integrators, not freight Airlines.

That is complete nonsense. The long and and ugly freight goes one deck up to the main deck were the big door is installed. The belly freight still has to fit the door size of the belly, that is the same as on a pax A320/321 and that does not allow much bigger parts than would fit a LD3-45 container or the corresponding pallets.
And I am waiting for you to tell me how integrator's do not use pallets and containers in the belly of a wide body.

AirPacific747 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:09 pm

Quoting Ab345 (Thread starter):
Airbus Launches A320/321 P2F Program

I nearly got a heart attack reading this headline. I thought Airbus had started its own Pay-2-Fly scheme.

cougar15 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:24 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 9):
And I am waiting for you to tell me how integrator's do not use pallets and containers in the belly of a wide body.

an A32X is not a widebody!

mjoelnir · Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:48 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 11):
an A32X is not a widebody!

I know it, it is a discussion, and is no use to react to one post without reading the others.

To make it very simple for you. Integrator's using LD3 or LD2 on wide bodies for belly freight will hardly turn down the convenience of being able to use LD3-45 on a A320. But perhaps you also believe that using LD containers on a narrow body for belly freight would cut the flexibility while loading a plane for an Integrator.

[Edited 2015-06-17 10:48:53]

Allee · Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:05 pm

I work for an integrator. Belly containers are the best. Saves from having to double-handle all the pieces.

Rarely do you get a long bulky shipment as loose load. They're put into the main deck containers.

[Edited 2015-06-17 11:30:04]

yago · Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 6):

Strange all the Airbus I handled from BD were containerized.

cougar15 · Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:50 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 12):
I know it, it is a discussion, and is no use to react to one post without reading the others.

yes, I agree, my experience centered (in post 4 , so please don´t lecture me on reading capabilities....) on a PARTICULAR Integrator operating in Europe that I dealt with some years ago! That was TNT, who had a HUGE intrested in the A32X P2F V 1 - and rest assured, they like their lose loaded bellies for their particular freight Profile! Get over it, not everyone flies bellies full of fish!
And as I am based in Europe, where the likes of your very own Bluebird (or ASL, Swift etc etc) do a bucket load of flying for TNT,DHL and UPS each and every night , the loose loaded bellies are a good Option, especially on multi stop routes that do not support 757 size A/C due to the volumes per destination!
TNT as I recall wanted the (first propposed) 32X P2F but without containerized bellies!

Quoting Allee (Reply 13):
I work for an integrator. Belly containers are the best. Saves from having to double-handle all the pieces.

with you all the way, but current Options (733,734) do obviously not allow it in the enviroment/for the operators I have mentioned, so yes - ease of handling , most definetly - reduce double handeling, absolutely, but the message is, that some of the Integrators (or their Partners/Subbies) may just not want this Option!

mjoelnir · Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:05 pm

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 15):

Quoting cougar15 (Reply 15):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 12):
I know it, it is a discussion, and is no use to react to one post without reading the others.

yes, I agree, my experience centered (in post 4 , so please don
[quote=cougar15,reply=15]Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 12):
I know it, it is a discussion, and is no use to react to one post without reading the others.

yes, I agree, my experience centered (in post 4 , so please don´t lecture me on reading capabilities....) on a PARTICULAR Integrator operating in Europe that I dealt with some years ago! That was TNT, who had a HUGE intrested in the A32X P2F V 1 - and rest assured, they like their lose loaded bellies for their particular freight Profile! Get over it, not everyone flies bellies full of fish!
And as I am based in Europe, where the likes of your very own Bluebird (or ASL, Swift etc etc) do a bucket load of flying for TNT,DHL and UPS each and every night , the loose loaded bellies are a good Option, especially on multi stop routes that do not support 757 size A/C due to the volumes per destination!
TNT as I recall wanted the (first propposed) 32X P2F but without containerized bellies!

Quoting Allee (Reply 13):
I work for an integrator. Belly containers are the best. Saves from having to double-handle all the pieces.

with you all the way, but current Options (733,734) do obviously not allow it in the enviroment/for the operators I have mentioned, so yes - ease of handling , most definetly - reduce double handeling, absolutely, but the message is, that some of the Integrators (or their Partners/Subbies) may just not want this Option!

Nice argument you bring. I know that Bláfugl as also Icelandair and whatever user of narrow bodied freighter currently in use, including all 737 and 757, does not use containers to fill the freight into the belly. Not a lot of choice there is it?
As it is only the A320 family, as yet not available as freighter, offers the possibility to use containers in the belly of a narrow body.
That is why I asked what the same incinerator's do in the case they use a wide body freighter. Do they shun containers for the belly freight? I know of none doing that.

Have a good day
mjoelnir

prebennorholm · Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:26 am

Quoting polot (Reply 1):
Let's hope they stick with it this time.

This is a different attempt.

Back in 2007 Airbus Freighter Conversion GmbH (AFC) was founded as a JV between Russian companies IRKUT and UAC, German EFW and Airbus. (EFW - Elbe Flugzeugwerke GmbH in Dresden) is the Airbus subsidiary doing A300/310 freighter conversions as well as other component supplies to Airbus.

EFW in Dresden would do the design and certification work, while the physical rebuilding would be done in Russia.

AFC was dissolved in 2011 due to lack of sufficient number of potential A320 frames for conversion.

This time the Russian companies are out of the loop and replaced by ST Aerospace in Singapore.

r2rho · Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:26 am

I don't understand why every time there is talk about A320 freight on a.net, this discussion about belly containers comes up.
Yet not a single post about what really matters about a P2F: main deck cargo capacity, size of the cargo door, etc.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 17):
This time the Russian companies are out of the loop and replaced by ST Aerospace in Singapore.

Good summary, but just to add that this new deal is now not a JV anymore, since EFW will now become majority owned by ST Aerospace, with Airbus a slightly minority shareholder.

PanHAM · Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:44 am

Indeed the bulk o the containerized goods land on the main deck for carriage. When talking about A320/321 bellies, we speak aout AKHs and not LD3s

With he turn around times at cargo hubs I doubt that a lot of "uglies" would go into the bellies. Especially not with the weight limitatins for loose freight whch is hardly ever above 30 KGs a piece.
The times when 1500 KGs could be loaded into a 727 belly delaying the flight by 90 minutes are gone and no ony because 727s are gone and airline owners that also owned tank ships.

mjoelnir · Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
Indeed the bulk o the containerized goods land on the main deck for carriage. When talking about A320/321 bellies, we speak aout AKHs and not LD3s

An LD3-45 and AKH container are different names for the same container.

Polot · Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:39 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 17):
This is a different attempt.

Well yes, I know that. I still wonder if it is a little too early for the A321 like the A320 was back several years ago when they first launched the program. Unless they convert A321-100s- but I'm not sure how well those would perform in a cargo role.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 18):
Yet not a single post about what really matters about a P2F: main deck cargo capacity, size of the cargo door, etc.

What really matters is the payload/range. Main deck cargo capacity is probably going to be similar to the similarly sized 734F- the A320's width advantage is not going to play much of a role on the main deck in an industry that has long since standardized containers around the DC-8 and 727 (and thus 737/757) widths for the narrowbodies. People are bringing up the belly freight because that is a difference the A320 will have.

PanHAM · Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 20):

An LD3-45 and AKH container are different names for the same container.

I know that, but at least here in FRA these cans are usually referred to as AKHs

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 4:55 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 18):
Yet not a single post about what really matters about a P2F: main deck cargo capacity, size of the cargo door, etc.

From data published by Airbus for the first model:

10 88x125" AAA ULDs and 1 53x88" AEP/AEH ULD or 09 96x125" ULDs
Volume: 167 cubic meters
Payload: 22,000kg
Design Range: 3700km
Main Cargo Door: 86(?)x121"

[Edited 2015-06-18 09:56:37]

Polot · Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 23):
10 88x125" AAA ULDs and 1 53x88" AEP/AEH ULD or 09 96x125" ULDs

Which is identical to the 734, which is why you see operators like TNT and West Atlantic interested in the plane.

Stitch · Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting polot (Reply 24):
Which is identical to the 734, which is why you see operators like TNT and West Atlantic interested in the plane.

The 737-800SF conversion by AEI offers a bit more volume and payload weight with identical design range to the A320P2F so it too could be of interest to such operators.

Revelation · Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:52 pm

Quoting Ab345 (Thread starter):
Today at the Paris Air Show and with deliveries in 2018

http://www.airbus.com/newsevents/new...amme/

Quote:

Airbus foresees a significant market demand of more than 600 aircraft over the next 20 years for P2F aircraft conversions in the small freighter segment. The A320P2F, with eleven main-deck container positions, will be capable of carrying 21 metric tonnes of payload over 2,100nm, while the A321P2F with 14 main-deck positions will be able to carry up to 27 tonnes over 1,900nm. The first converted A321P2F will be delivered in 2018.

Seems like a nice little program. 600 or so frames that would go to the breaker's yard will generate cash flow during the conversion itself and for years afterwards.

Is 600 a realistic number? How big is the current fleet of narrowbody freighters?

cougar15 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 16):
do in the case they use a wide body freighter. Do they shun containers for the belly freight? I know of none doing that.

They are broken down in the respective Hub, be it Leipzig, Cologne or Liege (in the EU) and "made to fit" the lose loaded bellies for their onward journey to the respective destinations!

Anyway - I dont want to hijack the thread on the belly issue any further - as numerous Posters have mentioned-...! Bring on the 32X P2F, the market is ready & waiting!!!

[Edited 2015-06-18 14:37:15]

A342 · Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:56 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 2):
By the way, Airbus/ST are not the only ones to see a revived business case, and are in fact late to the party as PacAvi has already started conversions:
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ghter-conversion-starts-at-408346/

Wow, can't believe I missed that programme, thank you!

Quoting polot (Reply 21):
I still wonder if it is a little too early for the A321 like the A320 was back several years ago when they first launched the program. Unless they convert A321-100s- but I'm not sure how well those would perform in a cargo role.

-100s can be converted to -200s through the applicaation of one of more service bulletins.

Then again, even with the A321 being popular like never before, some examples have been scrapped already. Pics can be found in the database. We live in a strange world...

Back to the two conversion programmes. I wonder if the 11/14 positions announced by Airbus/ST Aero/EFW are full positions or, like in the programme mentioned above, 10/13 full plus a half.

Both programmes seem to offer an equal payload on the A320, while Airbus/ST Aero/EFW have a 2 t payload edge on the A321.

However, their cargo door is only 121" wide. Can some of you guys from the cargo business explain how big of a disadvantage this is? Doesn't it sometimes come in handy to load a 125" pallet/container longitudinally? The other programme seems to allow this (140" door).

lightsaber · Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:06 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 2):

But... But... It's all about the fish.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):

600 is a viable fleet in its own right. For Airbus, a third of the value is keeping spares out of the system and instead having planes consume spares. A third of the value is conversion profit and a third is keeping up fleet resale value so old customers can trade in for new.

Lightsaber

starrymarkb · Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting MWHCVT (Reply 6):
Not all A32X are containerised it's a customer option as this was something BA who do operate containerised A32X face when taking over BD who used bulk load, and this is why as I understand all the former BD frames were eventually transferred to LGW

The BMD aircraft are still at Heathrow - Flew TXL-LHR on G-MIDS last month. T5 can handle some bulk loading (Are IB Bulk Load?), but not every A32x flight.

airboeingbus · Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:19 pm

A few years ago there was a lot of talk about P2F conversions for the A320 but now it has gone silent. Why did it never materialise and will it ever happen?

r2rho · Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:34 am

The program was canceled in 2011 by Airbus, citing that not enough cheap used frames were available for P2F, which was likely true at the time, and that demand for passenger new-builds was too strong, which is definitely true, and thus concluded there is no business case for either.

However, a P2F is begin pursued independently of Airbus by Pacavi:
http://pacavi.com/pacavi-group-confirms ... reighters/

A few years later, Airbus more or less sold its EFW conversion facility to ST Aerospace, who then launched a P2F program with Airbus support:
http://www.airbus.com/presscentre/press ... programme/

Of the two, Pacavi seems further ahead, but lacks official Airbus support...

Amiga500 · Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:55 am

[photoid][/photoid]How big would the market be for a dedicated single aisle freighter?

For even medium hub airports, would there not be enough under-floor capacity in widebodies flying to them to lift the vast majority of cargo?
For regional airports, would the cast majority of deliveries not be so small as to fit in LD3-45?

Noshow · Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:00 pm

EFW will be doing it at Dresden. They are now busy with their first A330 P2F conversions before the first A320 P2F.

B777LRF · Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:19 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]How big would the market be for a dedicated single aisle freighter?

For even medium hub airports, would there not be enough under-floor capacity in widebodies flying to them to lift the vast majority of cargo?
For regional airports, would the cast majority of deliveries not be so small as to fit in LD3-45?

There is not a market for a narrow-body freighter with traditional carriers such as Lufthansa Cargo, Cargolux, Atlas etc. This aircraft is marketed at the integrators, and for integrators belly space on commercial carriers won't do the trick, simply because they tend to lay up for the night when the integrators goes into action.

mwhcvt · Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:20 pm

Amiga500 wrote:
[photoid][/photoid]How big would the market be for a dedicated single aisle freighter?

For even medium hub airports, would there not be enough under-floor capacity in widebodies flying to them to lift the vast majority of cargo?
For regional airports, would the cast majority of deliveries not be so small as to fit in LD3-45?

Well the original launch customer Airbus had for program was West Air Europe, who now since the cancellation have built up a fleet of around a dozen 737F with additional frames coming on line on a regular basis, this is in addition to their large fleet of ATP-F they do a lot of contract flying for DHL and others, there's actually a resonable market it seems for NB Freighters

leleko747 · Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:46 pm

With several B737-300/400 being converted to SF and also the B737-800BCF coming soonly, I wonder if there is really demand for the A320P2F! (That "P2" is so strange, they should just call it "SF" lol)

I also wonder what happened to the MD-80SF project. I remember one converted to Everts Air Cargo, other one to USA Jet... and that's all?!

Amiga500 · Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:56 pm

B777LRF wrote:
This aircraft is marketed at the integrators,

Whats an integrator? What makes them different from the rest?

Noshow · Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:07 pm

With several B737-300/400 being converted to SF and also the B737-800BCF coming soonly, I wonder if there is really demand for the A320P2F!

As many airlines change their A320 fleets to neos it's a logical step to convert all those still good but used ceos to freighters.

PanHAM · Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:10 pm

An Integrator is a freight Company that integrates all steps from picking up cargo at the shippers premises, flies it to the Destination on dedicated freighter aircraft, clears customs (if international) and finally delivers the cargo to the consignee.

There are 3 Major Integrators, FEDEX, UPS and DHL, plus thousands of smaller ones.

And for People here thinking that there is enough belly capacity avilable on wide Body flights I have 2 Messages,
1) There are hardly any widebody Pax flights around in Europe and
2) The space offered on A320s is far from adequate.

That's why thousans of sprinter Vans criss cross Europe every night, faster and less complicated and with all the capacity, much better than flying.

MO11 · Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:47 pm

leleko747 wrote:
I also wonder what happened to the MD-80SF project. I remember one converted to Everts Air Cargo, other one to USA Jet... and that's all?!

Everts has a second, Aeronaves TSM has three with more coming.

KarelXWB · Mon May 29, 2017 3:22 pm

EFW shared several details on the A320/A321 P2F offerings:

- 14 + 10 pallet positions on the A321
- 11 + 7 pallet positions on the A320

Article
http://cargofacts.com/efw-offers-14-10- ... 21-p-to-f/

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