Traffic Between Europe And South America

VAM8789 · Tue May 19, 2015 1:28 pm

Curious to know who is the largest carrier between Europe and South America not named IB.

Is the reason BA has such a small presence (especially compared to their service to North America and Asia) because they use IB to funnel a lot of traffic to/from South America?

qm001 · Tue May 19, 2015 1:31 pm

Assuming you are talking European carriers, it would have to be TP!

airbazar · Tue May 19, 2015 1:47 pm

Quoting qm001 (Reply 1):
Assuming you are talking European carriers, it would have to be TP!

Would be curious to see the number of weekly seats between AF and TP. TP serves more cities, but wouldn't surprise me if AF had more seats.

qm001 · Tue May 19, 2015 2:02 pm

I'd also be curious to see that! I'm almost certain that TP will have more seats

jetblue1965 · Tue May 19, 2015 2:05 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 2):

Would be curious to see the number of weekly seats between AF and TP. TP serves more cities, but wouldn't surprise me if AF had more seats.

I think AF does have more seats. The "cities" lead of TP is mostly due to them serving every tiny town in Brazil. If we're only counting Europe to Spanish-speaking Lat Am, AF would be leading by a mile.

qm001 · Tue May 19, 2015 2:09 pm

Again, I think i'd like to see the numbers! You might be surprised

Can anyone provide some numbers?

factsonly · Tue May 19, 2015 2:36 pm

And here are the 2014 numbers:

1. AF/KL 22%
2. IAG 19%
3. TP 8%
4. LH 7%
5. AE 7%
7. Tui 4%
8. Thomas Cook 4%
9. Virgin 3%
10. AZ 2%

Airline groups from Latin American and the Caribbean account for only four of the top 15 airlines groups on Europe-Latin America routes, ranked by seats. The highest ranked airline group from Latin America is LATAM, ranked only in sixth place. The clear leaders are Air France-KLM, with a 22% share of seats, followed by IAG with 19%. The Lufthansa Group is pushed into fourth place by TAP Portugal, reflecting the strength of the latter’s Brazilian network. The European Big Three have 48% between them.

Europe to Latin America, ranked by seats (8-Aug-2014 to 24-Aug-2014)
Source: CAPA - Centre for Aviation and OAG

http://www.airlineleader.com/categor...n-well-above-world-averages-187145

airbazar · Tue May 19, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 4):
I think AF does have more seats. The "cities" lead of TP is mostly due to them serving every tiny town in Brazil. If we're only counting Europe to Spanish-speaking Lat Am, AF would be leading by a mile.

True but the question is not about Latin America so lets not go there. The OP clearly asked about SOUTH America and Europe, and AF doesn't serve a whole lot of countries in South America.

Quoting factsonly (Reply 6):
And here are the 2014 numbers:

That's Latin America. The thread is about South America.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 4):
The "cities" lead of TP is mostly due to them serving every tiny town in Brazil.

You could use a little geography lesson.
The smalest city that TP serves is Natal, which has a larger population than Boston.

[Edited 2015-05-19 08:20:14]

jetblue1965 · Tue May 19, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):

True but the question is not about Latin America so lets not go there. The OP clearly asked about SOUTH America and Europe, and AF doesn't serve a whole lot of countries in South America.

In that case I'd presume IB and TP would be the top 2. IB lean more towards SSC and TP lean Brazil.

But it is very evident that the colonial ties are still driving the traffic today - global airlines like BA or LH are barely making a dent in South Am due to little or even no historical ties.

airbazar · Tue May 19, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 8):
But it is very evident that the colonial ties are still driving the traffic today - global airlines like BA or LH are barely making a dent in South Am due to little or even no historical ties.

Yes and no, but you could say the same thing about BA and N.America. It's not any less of a valid business justification.
On the topic of colonial ties, about 40% of TP's Brazil passengers do not begin and end their trip in Portugal. That's a huge number of connecting traffic between Brazil and the rest of Europe.

incitatus · Tue May 19, 2015 3:29 pm

Largest by what measure and when? AF, TP and IB are roughly about the same size to SOUTH America. They all vary the schedule by season and alternate taking the top spot in number of seats. TP often has the most frequency but not always, and it tends to have the smallest average size aircraft.

If one wishes to lump AF and KL together, then they are the largest by any measure, always.

jetblue1965 · Tue May 19, 2015 3:35 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 9):

On the topic of colonial ties, about 40% of TP's Brazil passengers do not begin and end their trip in Portugal. That's a huge number of connecting traffic between Brazil and the rest of Europe.

60% is very large O&D in today's world of connecting traffic. QR runs their US network with 9% O&D in comparison.

VAM8789 · Tue May 19, 2015 3:43 pm

AF/KL do have an impressive network to South America from CDG and AMS.

LIM
GRU
GIG
BOG
CCS
SCL
EZE
MVD
UIO

factsonly · Tue May 19, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting VAM8789 (Reply 12):
AF/KL do have an impressive network to South America from CDG and AMS.

LIM
GRU
GIG
BOG
CCS
SCL
EZE
MVD
UIO

and you add PBM, CLO, GYE, PTY,

qm001 · Tue May 19, 2015 3:58 pm

You cannot lump AF/KL into this jointly, it must be AF only. Obviously AF/KL is bigger

EI320 · Tue May 19, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting qm001 (Reply 14):

You cannot lump AF/KL into this jointly, it must be AF only. Obviously AF/KL is bigger

AF/KL are a joint entity, and should therefore be considered as such. Splitting the AF/KL figures in an effort to make TP's presence look relatively stronger makes little sense. For TP to be ahead of LH in this important market is an impressive feat in its own right.

airbazar · Tue May 19, 2015 5:18 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
60% is very large O&D in today's world of connecting traffic. QR runs their US network with 9% O&D in comparison.

Nonesense. QR is an exception because they have no local market, hence all the noise. Even EK is something like 40% O&D. 60-70% O&D is on par with most European airlines.
From memory, BA has one of the lowest rates of conncting passengers amongst European carriers because at congested hubs, local traffic displaces connecting traffic.

[Edited 2015-05-19 10:24:15]

jetblue1965 · Tue May 19, 2015 5:24 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 16):

Nonesense. QR is an exception because they have no local market, hence all the noise. Even EK is something like 40% O&D. 60-70% O&D is on par with most European airlines.

EK's network to US is only 18% O&D. There was a CAPA article on it.

factsonly · Tue May 19, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting qm001 (Reply 14):
You cannot lump AF/KL into this jointly, it must be AF only. Obviously AF/KL is bigger

Read the article below, it is two years old and things have obviously changed as TP, KL, LH and others are all adding frequencies and destinations in South America.

Top 10 airline groups Europe to Latin America - excluding Caribbean ranked by total seats:

period: 25-Mar-2013 to 31-Mar-2013

- International Airlines Group - 74,708 = 22.1%
- Air France-KLM S.A. - 73,148 = 21.7%
- LATAM Airlines Group S.A. - 35,012 = 10.4%
- Deutsche Lufthansa AG - 33,898 = 10.0%
- TAP Portugal Group - 30,428 = 9.0%
- Alitalia - Compagnia Aerea Italiana S.p.A. - 15,226 = 4.5%
- Air Europa Lineas Aereas - 14,323 = 4.2%
- AviancaTaca Holding S.A. - 10,584 = 3.1%
- Aerolíneas Argentinas S.A. - 8,704 = 2.6%
- Aeromexico Group - 7,913 = 2.3%
- All others - 33,709 = 10.0%

If you break the 2013 data for AF and KL apart you will get something close to:
- AF 41.000 seats
- KL 32.000 seats

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...samba-salsa-tango-and-rumba-103061

VAM8789 · Tue May 19, 2015 7:05 pm

Did not realize the market between Brazil and Italy was so large.

IrishAyes · Tue May 19, 2015 7:25 pm

Here's some data broken down by country:

Argentina

Iberia - 4,395 seats - 22.71%
Aerolineas Argentinas - 3,451 seats - 17.83%
Lufthansa - 2,534 seats - 13.09%
Air Europa - 2,093 seats - 10.82%
Alitalia - 2,051 seats - 10.6%
Air France - 1,862 seats - 9.62%
KLM - 1,700 seats - 8.79%
British Airways - 1,265 seats - 6.54%

Total: 19,351 seats

Year over Year: 8.61% reduction in seats
Largest gains: KLM (+33%)
Largest losses: Aerolineas Argentinas (-35.33%)

Brasil

TAP - 15,711 seats - 24.3%
TAM - 10,598 seats - 15.78%
Air France - 8,503 seats - 12.66%
Lufthansa - 7,210 seats - 10.74%
Iberia - 5,679 seats - 8.46%
British Airways - 4,728 seats - 7.04%
KLM - 4,669 seats - 6.95%
Alitalia - 3,689 seats - 5.49%
Air Europa - 2,691 seats - 4.01%
SWISS - 1,533 seats - 2.28%
Singapore - 834 seats - 1.24%
Condor - 747 seats - 1.11%
Air China - 554 seats - 0.83%
Turkish - 2,359 seats** (not listed as part of EU)

Total: 67,146 seats
Largest gains: British Airways (+19.54%)
Largest losses: Iberia (-9.54%)

Chile

Iberia - 2,288 seats - 38.42%
Air France - 1,862 seats - 31.26%
LAN - 1,806 seats - 30.32%

KLM: 1,700** (operates 5th freedom SCL-EZE-AMS)
Air Europa: 596 seats (operated 5th freedom SCL-SSA-MAD, terminated March 2015)

Total seats: 5,956 seats

Colombia

Avianca - 7,650 seats - 50.78%
Iberia - 2,394 seats - 15.89%
Lufthansa - 2,142 seats - 14.22%
Air France - 1,925 seats - 12.78%
KLM - 954 seats - 6.33%

Total: 15,065 seats

Peru

KLM - 2,654 seats - 27.41%
Iberia - 2,343 seats - 24.19%
Air Europa - 2,093 seats - 21.61%
LAN Airlines - 1,547 seats - 15.97%
Air France - 1,047 seats - 10.81%

Total: 9,684 seats

jetblue1965 · Tue May 19, 2015 7:38 pm

Other than Colombia for the obvious reason, Star's coverage is very heavily focused in brazil.

If my counts are correct, Star offers the most number of nonstop destinations in Europe from GRU, and also the most number of nonstop Brazillian destinations from Europe.

But that's only network breadth in some cases. It's ridiculous that Star has zero presence on Chile/Peru - Europe. Maybe one day Avianca Peru (aka TACA) can finally launch LIM-MAD or LH launch FRA-LIM to partially rectify this.

Viscount724 · Tue May 19, 2015 10:11 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 13):
and you add PBM, CLO, GYE, PTY,

PTY is normally considered as Central America, not South America. It's of course part of Latin America, but the thread subject is South America.

Similarly, Mexico is part of Latin America, but geographically is considered part of North America.

[Edited 2015-05-19 15:13:35]

bogota · Wed May 20, 2015 12:21 am

Quoting irishayes (Reply 20):
Colombia

Avianca - 7,650 seats - 50.78%
Iberia - 2,394 seats - 15.89%
Lufthansa - 2,142 seats - 14.22%
Air France - 1,925 seats - 12.78%
KLM - 954 seats - 6.33%

Total: 15,065 seats

You are missing TP which operates 3 times a week on A332.

dcajet · Wed May 20, 2015 2:11 am

Quoting irishayes (Reply 20):
Argentina

Iberia - 4,395 seats - 22.71%
Aerolineas Argentinas - 3,451 seats - 17.83%
Lufthansa - 2,534 seats - 13.09%
Air Europa - 2,093 seats - 10.82%
Alitalia - 2,051 seats - 10.6%
Air France - 1,862 seats - 9.62%
KLM - 1,700 seats - 8.79%
British Airways - 1,265 seats - 6.54%

Total: 19,351 seats

Year over Year: 8.61% reduction in seats
Largest gains: KLM (+33%)
Largest losses: Aerolineas Argentinas (-35.33%)

What is the source of the data and YoY refers to what years? AR could not have a reduction of that magnitude (35.33%) on the European routes, unless the data is from 2012 or earlier, when AR was using the B744 to Europe. From that date on it has been the A340 and A330 recently, and frequencies have increased, particularly to BCN and FCO.

Thanks,

airbazar · Wed May 20, 2015 3:10 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 22):

PTY is normally considered as Central America, not South America. It's of course part of Latin America, but the thread subject is South America.

Technically it's North America because there is no such thing as a Central American continent

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 21):
Other than Colombia for the obvious reason, Star's coverage is very heavily focused in brazil.

In what way? Are you forgetting Avianca and Copa with hubs in BOG, LIM, and PTY?

TYCOON · Wed May 20, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting VAM8789 (Reply 12):

and BSB.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 7):

AF serves over half of the countries in SOUTH America (7 out of 12, and I do not count French Guiana which is technically not a country although in South America) and TP certainly does NOT serve a lot of countries in SOUTH America (only 3 out of 12, or one-fourth). By my count, IB only serves one more SOUTH American country than AF (8 out of 12).

AF/KL vs IAG: AFKL serves 9 out of the 12 countries, IAG still only 8 of the 12.

airbazar · Wed May 20, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 26):
AF serves over half of the countries in SOUTH America (7 out of 12, and I do not count French Guiana which is technically not a country although in South America) and TP certainly does NOT serve a lot of countries in SOUTH America (only 3 out of 12, or one-fourth). By my count, IB only serves one more SOUTH American country than AF (8 out of 12).

Ok but the question wasn't which airline serves more countries in South America. The question was which is largest between Europe and South America and to me largest means more seats, and more routes. Again, I don't disagree that AF may be the largest although #s would be nice. I just don't think it's by a large margin if that is indeed the case. I made that clear in reply #2.

jetblue1965 · Wed May 20, 2015 3:54 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 25):
In what way? Are you forgetting Avianca and Copa with hubs in BOG, LIM, and PTY?

Not forgetting, but LIM/PTY to Europe offerings on Star are rather thin

Copa/PTY is still mostly acting as a north-south hub between the Americas. BOG is the true omni-directional LatAm hub that Star has.

TYCOON · Thu May 21, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 27):

airbazar, I was specifically responding to your comment in Reply 7: "...AF doesn't serve a whole lot of countries in South America." My point merely demonstrates that they indeed do. If you include French Guiana, they fly to just as many countries as IB.

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