Tarom To Replace Its Fleet With A319/20/21/330

fpetrutiu · Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:07 am

http://www.incont.ro/transporturi/co...rne-si-economice-de-la-airbus.html (sorry Romanian only)

According to this article, Tarom has selected Airbus as the sole provider for its fleet through a buy-back agreement. With the agreement, Airbus will buy back the A318's, A310's, B733's and B737 while the B738 will be returned to the leassor.

Starting in 2015, Airbus will deliver :

8x A319, 4x A320, 2x A321, 2x A330.

All of the initially delivered aircraft will be less than 5 years of age as a "lease" until new aircraft are produced. From the looks of it, these will be all non-NEO.

All the older ATR42's will also be traded in for new ones in the same buy. Airbus will offer financing.

What I find interesting is that Tarom is thinking about getting a pair of A330's. This is a huge increase of capacity from the A310 and has the legs for any destination in North America and Asia. Wonder what their plans are.

kaitak · Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:47 am

Good to see them grow, anyway.

I always thought that having three different (short haul) jet type ratings in an airline of that size (A318/733/737NG) was a bit odd.

Have the A310s actually been in service recently? I knew they had planned to reactivate them, but I wasn't sure that had actually happened.

At least this new development will simplify their operations considerably.

fpetrutiu · Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:50 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Have the A310s actually been in service recently? I knew they had planned to reactivate them, but I wasn't sure that had actually happened.

Yes they are in use on mostly OTP-TLV.

SXDFC · Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:12 am

I think its safe to say the -700s will probably end up with WN.

Congrats to RO., however it would have been nice to see them with the 737MAX..

[Edited 2015-01-17 21:16:29]

EDIT:

Do we know where these birds are coming from? Engine type,etc?

[Edited 2015-01-17 21:17:26]

RJ321 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:17 am

Quoting fpetrutiu (Thread starter):

Finally, I think their fleet is getting rather old and tired, I hope they choose better seats as the old ones where not quite comfortable.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):

I've seen their A310 at DXB in late December 2014.

Transportatorul · Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:41 am

Well, the news itself sound awesome and in general the proposed fleet is just perfect, there are still some points which let me have doubts in to:
- it's Tarom/Romania. there are always so many rumours/plans/wish dreams...I believe it only once I see it
- latest info I had (and saw with my own eyes) is that RO has a miserable load factor, so it's questionable how much it will help to boost the seat count that much. However, if they would pass the savings on and lower the prices, they might fill these planes, the passengers are on the market, only so far they fly W6, B0, LH, OS, TK, FZ...W6 again
- the 330 would only make sense if they would actually go long-haul, if they treat it again only as holiday charter to Turkey and over the winter to TLV...waste of money

regarding the 310: regular use to TLV, over summer it does all the holiday charts to Turkey, Greece and Canary Islands and in between where ever are the seats needed (TSR, DXB, sometimes CDG and others)

factsonly · Sun Jan 18, 2015 8:28 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Have the A310s actually been in service recently?

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 2):
Yes they are in use on mostly OTP-TLV.

Quoting RJ321 (Reply 4):
regarding the 310: regular use to TLV, over summer it does all the holiday charts to Turkey, Greece and Canary Islands and in between where ever are the seats needed (TSR, DXB, sometimes CDG and others)

Here are A310: YR-LCA and YR-LCB recent operations:

YR-LCA:

16-01-2015 RO344 VIE - OTP
16-01-2015 RO343 OTP - VIE
16-01-2015 RO362 AMS - OTP
16-01-2015 RO361 OTP - AMS
15-01-2015 RO152 TLV - OTP
15-01-2015 RO151 OTP - TLV
15-01-2015 RO362 AMS - OTP
15-01-2015 RO361 OTP - AMS
11-01-2015 RO152 TLV - OTP
11-01-2015 RO151 OTP - TLV
11-01-2015 RO362 AMS - OTP
11-01-2015 RO361 OTP - AMS

YR-LCB:

17-01-2015 RO68 DXB - OTP
17-01-2015 RO67 OTP - DXB
16-01-2015 RO156 TLV - OTP
16-01-2015 RO155 OTP - TLV
15-01-2015 RO306 FRA - OTP
15-01-2015 RO305 OTP - FRA
15-01-2015 RO226 PRG - OTP
15-01-2015 RO225 OTP - PRG

bjorn14 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 9:02 am

Do we know what kind of 330s? Best of luck to RO.

winterlight · Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:06 am

More A318s for the chop.

JU068 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:20 am

Replacing the A310 with the A330... wonderful, same mistake CY made back in 2002. I hope they don't intend on using it to Tel Aviv or Vienna.
Then again, starting flights to north America will not be an easy task especially since the market is already saturated.

How credible is the source?

Transportatorul · Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:30 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):
How credible is the source?

Well, there are several websites which have more or less the same news, however this is same as happened last summer when the romanian web was full of the new EK flight which was supposed to start up right away. Further, all of the articles (including this one) are dated back to march 2014. Taking in consideration that last summer everybody at Tarom was only talking about the reinstated PEK flight (which obviously still is not flying and most likely won't fly anytime soon) but nothing about this, besides the usual "Tarom will do a fleet replacement" (which happens about once a year), my feeling is: don't give too much about it.
Would be nice, but in regard of Tarom, better go with the "I believe it when I see it".

gkirk · Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 7):
Do we know what kind of 330s? Best of luck to RO.

Airbus 330s

JU068 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:02 pm

Quoting Transportatorul (Reply 10):

I guess it's the same story as with the old Jat Airways. The fleet renewal plan has always been rumoured but never actually happened.
I hope Tarom pulls its act together, they are a good airline and I enjoyed all my flights with them.

Transportatorul · Sun Jan 18, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 12):
I hope Tarom pulls its act together, they are a good airline and I enjoyed all my flights with them.

Well, would be nice, but I still have my doubts.
First of all, they don't have a real strategy, for example couple of weeks ago they were talking about starting a low cost airline. Before that it was the PEK flight. Then plenty of fleet renewal rumours while having quite low load factors.

I thought they were on a good way when they hired Heinzmann, but obviously the construct of politics, personal interests and implications of the employees makes it almost impossible to get this running. Either a foreign investor will come with money, a solid business plan and an iron fist or at one point some government (most likely not the current one) will pull the plug. The ideal case that RO will manage on their own with a fleet renewal...unfortunately unlikely.

bunumuring · Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:09 pm

There was a story in Airliner World magazine recently about Tarom. In it, the reporter clearly stated that Tarom was to make a reequipment decision to simplify the fleet and move forward. I can't remember specifics, but I think it was alluded to in the article that Airbus was considered to have the inside running.
Am I correct in saying that the planes mentioned at the beginning of the thread are all (or the majority) second-hand? If 'yes', I believe that gives greater creedence to this speculation as from what other posters above have stated, Tarom may not be in a financial position to order fleets of brand new aircraft.
I wish them well.
Cheers,
Bunumuring.

SpaceshipDC10 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):
Have the A310s actually been in service recently? I knew they had planned to reactivate them, but I wasn't sure that had actually happened.

http://www.flightradar24.com/reg/yr-lca
http://www.flightradar24.com/reg/yr-lcb

As I write this, YR-LCB is enroute to CDG, almost over Luxembourg.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 7):
Do we know what kind of 330s?

I guess it's gonna be the -200, which represents quite an increase in capacity over the current C20Y189 of the A310.

JU068 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:15 pm

Tarom has not been profitable for many years now, especially not since Romania joined the EU. How are they paying for their expenses since the government can no longer fund them?

I guess Romania's geography, Wizz Air and Blue Air have not made it easy for RO to cope with modern aviation trends.

Transportatorul · Sun Jan 18, 2015 1:20 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 14):
Am I correct in saying that the planes mentioned at the beginning of the thread are all (or the majority) second-hand? If 'yes', I believe that gives greater creedence to this speculation as from what other posters above have stated, Tarom may not be in a financial position to order fleets of brand new aircraft.

Well, it says actually the following:
Industry sources say that Airbus accepted to take TAROMs fleet over as buy-back and will deliver, next year [2015], new aircrafts or second-hand, however not over than 5 years.

ROT371 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:13 pm

This type of news comes out every 5 months or so. The article that this thread is based on was posted in March 2014 - over a year now.

It is highly likely for RO to switch to Airbus due to the European Union and to the investments Airbus has put into aircraft part manufacturers across Romania.

Nevertheless, due to competition from Wizz Air, Ryanair and corruption, I'm afraid RO will face the fate of Malev and Cyprus.

SpaceshipDC10 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting ROT371 (Reply 18):
The article that this thread is based on was posted in March 2014 - over a year now.

Not so fast young man, please...

SESGDL · Sun Jan 18, 2015 3:50 pm

Wow, so a European airline is going to have a fleet of 319s/320s/321s/330s... Unheard of...

Good to see them moving in the right direction, however. But, can we say boring?

Jeremy

peterinlisbon · Sun Jan 18, 2015 4:28 pm

I think it sounds like a pretty sensible plan. A bit like trading in your old car and getting a newer one (but not the latest model). Actually I was quite suprised to hear that they are only doing this now, in 2015. I flew on one of those A310s to Bangkok back when Romania was still an extremely poor ex-communist country. I had to get a transit visa, and we made a surprise fuel stop in Dubai and that was the first time I'd ever heard of the place or Emirates.

Loran · Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:38 pm

I flew on YR-LCB just over a week ago to DXB and the flight was pretty full. The aircraft had several technical issues though related to the cold. First the drainage system was frozen and then the start valve of engine #1 was frozen, and eventually had to be opened manually by Line Maintenance. Ended up with 90 mins delay.

RO have an engineer onboard the A310 flights who was quite busy fixing minor stuff throughout the flight. Also I was surprised to hear from the engineer that the flight to DXB is operated as an ETOPS restricted flight.

If they would offer the flight with connections from Europe I can see them filling an A332, but not daily I guess. I had to stay overnight in OTP to fly to DXB, an extremely inconvenient connection. However the fares are quite attractive.

Regards,
Loran

RJ321 · Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:41 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 9):

I agree. Tarom should focus on being a regional airline, given that the current circumstances call for that and also learning for other carriers' mistake(s), not to mention that Tarom has tried previously transatlantic and Asian far eastern flights previously and failed. Good luck anyway.

AWACSooner · Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:46 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 1):

Have the A310s actually been in service recently? I knew they had planned to reactivate them, but I wasn't sure that had actually happened.

I'm slated to fly one BRU-OTP in early May...and it had better stay that way!

Transportatorul · Sun Jan 18, 2015 5:48 pm

For what it's worth, at least PEK as destination seems to be right.
I've just read that TK (which still wants to start the forth daily flight and has already uploaded their booking system with the 330 coming to OTP for August) has as intl destination number one PEK listed ex OTP.
So if any destination will make it, than probably this one.

DAL763ER · Sun Jan 18, 2015 10:28 pm

There used to be a joke around the aviation folks in Romania - the country bought Boeings back in the late 90s, early 2000's in view of joining NATO. Then they bought 318s in view of joining the EU. And now since the country is hoping to join Schengen, the Airbus deal makes a lot of sense. Whether it will be done or not is a different story. I imagine it will happen. Shouldn't be that hard considering they already have some pilots rated for the 320 family.

frunzaverde · Sun Jan 18, 2015 11:19 pm

No fleet replacement decision has been taken. Moreover, there is almost no chance of such a decision being taken in the short-run, as there's a lot of tension growing in the management.

The politically-appointed board and the externally recruited CEO are not on very good terms - there's been at least four attempts by the board to replace the CEO until now. The last time they tried, the board was canned and replaced, but the new board is just as bad - recently they decided not to pay the CEO's salary for December, claiming some sort of law that wouldn't and shouldn't apply to him.

Before that, they spread rumours of the CEO being 'very ill' while trying to pressure him to resign quietly. They even employed union connections to trigger wildcat strikes over low pay for pilots and FAs (Tarom pay is in line with EU-legacy pay; demands were to bring pay levels to those demanded by Lufthansa crews in the series of strikes last year!).

Until management issues won't be solved, no fleet renewal program will start, given that no bank will fund RO under so much uncertainty. Even with a decent board and CEO, there's few banks willing to pour money into a black hole such as RO. And, there's much more pressing issues than a full fleet renewal that haven't been addressed yet. Right now, the lease on RO's only 738 is expiring, the 310s are soon getting to expensive to keep operational, meaning that soon, even the current schedule won't be maintainable.

JU068 · Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:47 am

So basically Tarom is heading towards eventual bankruptcy?

frunzaverde · Mon Jan 19, 2015 9:59 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 28):
So basically Tarom is heading towards eventual bankruptcy?

Not necessarily. The CEO (Heinzmann) has managed to fix the most pressing cash flow issues and reduce losses to a somewhat manageable level.

If the situation will stay as-is, Tarom will probably contract slowly to basically providing domestic, intra-Romania services (which are a decent cash-cow) plus mid-frequency regional services (SOF, IST, BUD, KIV ex-OTP), probably using props (these tend to bring decent revenue flows, as they are needed by SEE business traffic). Plus some limited spoke-to-hub traffic on behalf of Sky Team. This will probably have them survive long-term, if they are extremely cost-conscious and prudent (as they have been under Heinzmann).

However, if the unions (extremely vocal and demanding), lower management (stuck in the 1970s "milk runs" and "sell tickets via brick-and-mortar ticket offices" thinking) and former upper management (wishing to run things via a "we know better, eat your own dog food" attitude) get their ways, the whole thing will collapse pretty soon. Politicians would start meddling in the airline once again, determining purchasing and route decisions, with the expected consequences.

They would only continue with things like starting up a low-cost hub in IAS, that proved to be a complete financial disaster (RO doesn't have the cost structure to run an LCC anywhere); moreover, it just paved the grounds for cheaper competition to enter the scene (and W6 already began operations - in less than a year, RO will probably be gone from IAS). Similarly, stupid fleet renewal decisions, like those made in 2006, with the A318s, would continue. This would only lead to more bleeding, and an eventual bankruptcy, probably as soon as 2016-17.

Not that Heinzmann can't screw up royally - his whole idea with flying A310s to China is complete non-sense. Luckily, it's going nowhere - they can't overfly Russia.

Transportatorul · Mon Jan 19, 2015 8:50 pm

Quoting frunzaverde (Reply 29):
intra-Romania services (which are a decent cash-cow)

I've heard EU is already about it, as it seems the requirements for domestic services, which are tendered by the ministry of transport, are tailor made for RO so that no other airline having a chance to pick up those (as these are subsidized by the government), so this might be gone soon.

And regarding PEK, as written above: even though I agree that A310 is not the aircraft to do this (well, the 310 isn't made for anything these days), but as per my understanding OTP-PEK is quite a profitable route, at least for TK.

JU068 · Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:49 pm

Does anyone know how reliable RO's Atr fleet is? Are they generally satisfied with the aircraft? Maybe they should consider the Q400 as a replacement. With it they could cover all of the Balkans plus cities such as Vienna, Munich, Prague..

fpetrutiu · Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 31):
With it they could cover all of the Balkans plus cities such as Vienna, Munich, Prague..

I think they love them. They already fly them to BUD, BEG, KIV, IST, PRG, BTS, VIE, DBV, SOF, MUC among others.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Tarom...d=b5f9743024435aa5bde33e5bfab9dec0

LAX772LR · Thu Jan 22, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting Loran (Reply 22):
Also I was surprised to hear from the engineer that the flight to DXB is operated as an ETOPS restricted flight.

Why are you surprised?

The Great Circle for OTP-DXB passes right through an ETOPS zone. So for the most direct routing, they need it.

Loran · Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:33 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 33):
The Great Circle for OTP-DXB passes right through an ETOPS zone. So for the most direct routing, they need it.

Could you please share which ETOPS zone? To my knowledge A310s are certified for 180mins ETOPS, and I couldn't imagine a zone where no airport is in reach within 180mins.

Also, almost no airlines from Europe to the UAE or vv. fly the great circle across Syria and Iraq. Most choose the northern route through Turkey and Iran and a few fly through Egypt and Saudi Arabia, which was the one RO chose for our flight.

Regards,
Loran

tommy1808 · Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:09 am

Quoting Loran (Reply 34):
Could you please share which ETOPS zone? To my knowledge A310s are certified for 180mins ETOPS, and I couldn't imagine a zone where no airport is in reach within 180mins.

they have to fly under ETOPS rules if they want to fly direct, because at some point they are more than 60 min away from an airport.

Best regards
Thomas

Loran · Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 35):
because at some point they are more than 60 min away from an airport.

Actually there are a few minutes flight time between Egypt and Kuwait which are beyond 60 mins ETOPS.
How about their 737s? They fly the same route but I'm not sure if these are ETOPS certified?

Regards,
Loran

Clydenairways · Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:04 am

I don't see why they need A330's.

LAX772LR · Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:14 am

Quoting Loran (Reply 34):
Could you please share which ETOPS zone? To my knowledge A310s are certified for 180mins ETOPS, and I couldn't imagine a zone where no airport is in reach within 180mins.

That's their MAXIMUM approval.

Any route that's more than 60min flying time from an open/available alternate airport has to operate under ETOPS, which is exactly what exists between OTP and DXB.

bjorn14 · Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:47 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 31):
Maybe they should consider the Q400

If any thing they should replace their older ATRs with the newer -600s not buy the more expensive Q400 that they really don't need for their regional routes.

Loran · Thu Jan 22, 2015 11:49 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 38):

I stand corrected, and I overlooked that there is in fact a small ETOPS restricted zone between Egypt and Kuwait.
Two days ago their 737 YR-BGF flew the same route, assume the same applies here?

Regards,
Loran

JU068 · Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 39):

Yes but they could use the Q400 on both domestic, regional and non-regional routes. I am sure there are markets where the B737 is too big and the Atr too slow/uncomfortable.
For example, Bucharest-Prague or Munich are a bit far for the Atr. I remember flying on JU's Atr from BEG to MUC and it was a living nightmare.

Quoting fpetrutiu (Reply 32):
BUD, BEG, KIV, IST, PRG, BTS, VIE, DBV, SOF, MUC

ROT371 · Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:34 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 41):

I think it is a little absurd to call a flight from BEG to MUC a living nightmare, as opposed to the Q400 experience.

There would be no interest into operating a prop on MUC routes. TAROM does so only via Sibiu; there's been some time since an ATR operated OTP - MUC directly.

To be honest, I really don't understand TAROM's need to operate so many aircraft types. I'm sure that focusing on a single type would be much more economically valid. Plus a turboprop for the low demand domestic and international routes like KIV, SKG, BEG, SUJ, SBZ and so on.

I think it would be great if they focused on operating about 5 ATRs and either the A320 or E-Jet/C-Series/MRJ.

In the past, ROT was a major player on the Europe - West Asia market. I don't get why ROT does not acknowledge/take action according to its geographical positioning. They can't really focus on being the E-European gateway with BUD, PRG and the others around.

JU068 · Fri Jan 23, 2015 10:56 am

Quoting ROT371 (Reply 42):
I think it is a little absurd to call a flight from BEG to MUC a living nightmare, as opposed to the Q400 experience.

Belgrade-Munich on JU's Atr was almost three hours, 02.45 to be more precise. It felt like a living nightmare. The Q400 could have done it in maybe 2 hours. If we take the route Belgrade-Athens, the Atr used to do it in 02.20 while the Q400 does it in 01.30.

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