Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Max Q · Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:11 am

Over the years I've heard that Boeing throws in a full tank of gas with every new delivery (if the mission allows it)

That is a lot of money, especially on a B747, anyone know if this is true and / or know if Airbus does the same thing ?

DocLightning · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:23 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Over the years I've heard that Boeing throws in a full tank of gas with every new delivery (if the mission allows it)

That is a lot of money, especially on a B747, anyone know if this is true and / or know if Airbus does the same thing ?

Don't know if it's true, but there is no such thing as a free lunch. If Boeing is fueling the aircraft for "free," then the cost of that fuel will be somehow recouped in the price of the aircraft. Just because it's not listed as a line item doesn't mean that the customer isn't ultimately paying for it.

Max Q · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:35 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

Yes I understand that Doc, its just an interesting Gimmick and i'm trying to find out if there's anything to it.

Best wishes.

SEPilot · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:41 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 2):

Yes I understand that Doc, its just an interesting Gimmick and i'm trying to find out if there's anything to it.

I am sure that there are many airlines that buy Boeing for the free tank of fuel. After all, $50,000 or so makes a tremendous difference on a $100,000,000 purchase.

peterinlisbon · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:54 am

*Offer does not apply to the KC-767 tankers.

SYDSpotter · Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:24 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Over the years I've heard that Boeing throws in a full tank of gas with every new delivery (if the mission allows it)

A full oil 'tanker' of fuel and now you're talking...

This is probably standard business practice, when I go to pick up my new car it is fuelled up (although I can't remember if it was filled to the brim or just enough to make it to the nearest petrol station

) Wouldn't look particularly good if the customer goes to pick up a brand new shiny jet and a Boeing employee asks for an extra $50,000 to fill up the plane.

SEPilot · Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:12 am

The very first new car I bought had only enough fuel in it to get to a filling station (this was in 1981). To the best of my recollection, though, every other car I have bought from a dealer (new or used, and all but one other were used) came with a full tank.

coolian2 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:32 am

I'd imagine a full tank of gas would probably give a customer like AS the shits.

airportugal310 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:42 am

Airbus does not...they can arrange it for you (for an extra admin fee) or you can set up the fuel yourself for cheaper

mmo · Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:05 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
anyone know if this is true and / or know if Airbus does the same thing ?

I have taken delivery of new aircraft from both Boeing and Airbus. I can assure you nothing is free. When you buy an aircraft, that's what you get. You want fuel, it's on you. Both Boeing and Airbus will ensure there is fuel for the return flight, but it is at a cost.

There is no such thing as a free lunch!!!!!

Max Q · Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:28 am

Quoting mmo (Reply 10):
I have taken delivery of new aircraft from both Boeing and Airbus. I can assure you nothing is free. When you buy an aircraft, that's what you get. You want fuel, it's on you. Both Boeing and Airbus will ensure there is fuel for the return flight, but it is at a cost.

There is no such thing as a free lunch!!!!!

You are missing the point.

rotating14 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:19 am

I would imagine that Boeing fuels up the plane with enough to get it to its destination with a bit extra in case for a diversion due to weather, the same way the aircraft is fueled for a mission when it's owned by the airline. I remember a while back a 787 for ET flew a delivery to the flight from Everett to Washington (2019 nm) to then continue on to a ADD. I'm sure it was fueled with just enough to get to IAD, not ADD. Equally, the tank isn't full when 77W's are delivered to AA.

Airlines know that Boeing has to pay for fuel the same way airlines pay for it. With that said, it's rarely a full tank and customers ARE paying for someway or another.

A346Dude · Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:32 am

Filling the tanks would mean a good chance of being over max landing weight for the first revenue flight, which would force the airline to go through the hassle of partially defueling the aircraft.

bthebest · Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:45 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
Quoting mmo (Reply 10):I have taken delivery of new aircraft from both Boeing and Airbus. I can assure you nothing is free. When you buy an aircraft, that's what you get. You want fuel, it's on you. Both Boeing and Airbus will ensure there is fuel for the return flight, but it is at a cost.

There is no such thing as a free lunch!!!!!
You are missing the point.

Based on your OP, I don't think he is. A/B will "deliver" it dry - at the delivery centre at the factory. It's then the airline's responsibility to arrange fuel.

Hence, they don't throw any fuel in as goodwill.

bond007 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:21 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
anyone know if this is true and / or know if Airbus does the same thing ?

You already knew the answer to this question before you posted, so the point of your post was not to find that out!

Since in percentage terms, it's worth almost nothing compared to the cost of aircraft, it makes no difference. A full tank in my new car is an order of magnitude larger in terms of it's worth (and that isn't even 0.5%).

But you know all that of course...

Jimbo

dtw2hyd · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:28 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Over the years I've heard that Boeing throws in a full tank of gas with every new delivery (if the mission allows it)

Aren't there multiple tanks!!!

Bongodog1964 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 5):
This is probably standard business practice, when I go to pick up my new car it is fuelled up (although I can't remember if it was filled to the brim or just enough to make it to the nearest petrol station

I've seen a car salesman send a driver round to the fuel station to put some fuel in before a car is handed over, still needed to fill up on the way home though. The definition of "sufficient" here appears to be "does the gauge needle move"

Francoflier · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:43 pm

On a long haul delivery flight, you can burn anywhere up to, I would venture, 30 or 40% of the aircraft weight in fuel.

Hence, for every metric ton of fuel aboard that's not needed for that flight, you might end up burning a third of it just to carry it along.

I would say that for a widebody long haul delivery flight at least, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

It might be different on shorter delivery flights of narrowbodies, but I still reckon it's a gimmick better left to car salesmen.

Luftfahrer · Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:02 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 7):
I'd imagine a full tank of gas would probably give a customer like AS the shits.

They may actually have to dump fuel on the delivery flight.

goboeing · Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:03 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
You are missing the point.

Just goes right over their heads if it allows them to start an argument, doesn't it!

Asiaflyer · Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:58 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 9):
I have taken delivery of new aircraft from both Boeing and Airbus. I can assure you nothing is free. When you buy an aircraft, that's what you get. You want fuel, it's on you. Both Boeing and Airbus will ensure there is fuel for the return flight, but it is at a cost.

There is no such thing as a free lunch!!!!!

This is the only post in this thread that states facts and answers the OPs question.

Quoting goboeing (Reply 19):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
You are missing the point.

Just goes right over their heads if it allows them to start an argument, doesn't it!

Think its time to close and delete this thread.

mmo · Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
You are missing the point.

Then perhaps you could enlighten all of us then!!!!

barney captain · Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:40 pm

I picked up a new 737-800 from PAE after it had been delivered from Renton and it most definitely had completely full tanks - less the small amount burned between the two airports. I was told it was standard from Boeing - but who knows if anything is truly standard.

Here's where it got dumb -

We ferried that a/c to GEG for painting - to become Heart One (and no, I didn't leak the pics

) When we dropped it off at the paint shop, the painters were shocked because before they could move it in to the hanger, it had to be defuled - all remaining 42000 lbs. To the best of my knowledge, Jet-A that's been removed from an a/c can't be used again (except maybe as a diesel alternative in ground equipment). Does anyone know for certain?

RyDawg82 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:48 pm

When I worked in Operations for a major US carrier in the past, fuel that was removed from an aircraft COULD be used again, but only on aircraft of the SAME airline. If fuel was removed from XX, it could not be taken to the next terminal and put on YY's aircraft.

I left the airline side of things back in 2005, so this may have changed.

Ryan

futureatp · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:23 pm

As recently as 2011: I do know for a fact that new Southwest 737s delivered to Phoenix are de-fueled down to a certain amount on their MX ramp as they came in very heavy on fuel as it left with full tanks. I do not know the procedure of what Southwest does with a new airplane or how long it stays on the MX ramp after delivery.

The fuel does eventually go back into other SW planes as needed to free up space in the fuel tanker. PHX (except cargo) is pressure fueled so the need for tankers is to defuel. The fuel must pass a test(s) before going back into an airplane and can only go back into the same company's aircraft (IE, fuel from a Southwest Jet cannot go into a Delta aircraft. Must go into a Southwest bird but does not have to be same aircraft). De-fueling happens all the time. An airplane going on MX. A dispatcher swapping a bird (I have seen this personally from USAirways) that was going to PHX-PHL to PHX-LAS. And the simplest reason for a de-fuel, a new $9hr fueler not paying attention and overfueling.....

[Edited 2014-10-09 09:24:13]

stxbohn · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 22):
We ferried that a/c to GEG for painting - to become Heart One (and no, I didn't leak the pics ) When we dropped it off at the paint shop

Slightly off topic, where were the new TV commercials with Heart One/Two filmed? It was a really clean tarmac with blast fence, bright, and mountains in the background. Somewhere out west, really quiet airport? Amazing how pictures weren't leaked from that excursion too!

clickhappy · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting stxbohn (Reply 25):
Slightly off topic, where were the new TV commercials with Heart One/Two filmed? It was a really clean tarmac with blast fence, bright, and mountains in the background

VCV

seabosdca · Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 17):
it's a gimmick better left to car salesmen.

Even car salesmen vary.

I've bought four new cars in my life. Two of them came with a full tank, and two (one that had been driven straight off the truck and one from a dealer who just didn't care) had to be driven to the gas station right after delivery.

stxbohn · Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:36 pm

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 26):

VCV

Awesome. Thank you.

Unflug · Thu Oct 09, 2014 5:59 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
You are missing the point.

What's your point then, if I may ask?

DocLightning · Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:23 pm

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 18):

They may actually have to dump fuel on the delivery flight.

737 can't dump. They'd have to fly around for 4 hours before landing at SEA.

AA777223 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:50 pm

I think the whole thing the OP was trying to ask is not necessarily if the A/C was fully filled to the brim, how was it actually funded, etc.

I believe the OP was asking (and he is welcome to correct me) is, when an airline comes to pick up their plane, are the tanks fueled per normal mission rules for its upcoming flight, wherever that might be. I just bought a new car a week ago, and the sticker even said "full tank of gas" under the standard equipment list. Clearly the $80 to fill up the tank in my new SUV was covered through other costs in the transaction, but the illusion of the "first tank free" was there. Since aircraft don't usually fly around with full tanks, but rather what they need for their next flight, logic would dictate, that is the airliner version of a "free tank of gas".

I think that only two posts here answered that question:

Quoting mmo (Reply 9):
I have taken delivery of new aircraft from both Boeing and Airbus. I can assure you nothing is free. When you buy an aircraft, that's what you get. You want fuel, it's on you. Both Boeing and Airbus will ensure there is fuel for the return flight, but it is at a cost.

There is no such thing as a free lunch!!!!!

and

Quoting barney captain (Reply 22):

I picked up a new 737-800 from PAE after it had been delivered from Renton and it most definitely had completely full tanks - less the small amount burned between the two airports. I was told it was standard from Boeing - but who knows if anything is truly standard.

Here's where it got dumb -

We ferried that a/c to GEG for painting - to become Heart One (and no, I didn't leak the pics ) When we dropped it off at the paint shop, the painters were shocked because before they could move it in to the hanger, it had to be defuled - all remaining 42000 lbs.

Other pedantic, hair splitting comments aside, I think we have the information requested.

bond007 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 31):
I believe the OP was asking (and he is welcome to correct me) is, when an airline comes to pick up their plane, are the tanks fueled per normal mission rules for its upcoming flight, wherever that might be.

Like I said, the answer was already known to the OP

You're reading way too much into the reasoning behind it.

Jimbo

AA777223 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting bond007 (Reply 32):
Like I said, the answer was already known to the OP

I don't think he did know, which is why he asked. Just because he asked if Airbus does the same thing, like you quoted, doesn't mean he knows what Boeing is doing. It was pretty obvious he didn't know what Boeing did, and whatever they did do, if Airbus did the same as the unknown actions of Boeing.

I don't think I am reading too much into it, at all, as he and other posters noted that amidst 30 posts, many were "missing the point" and that it was "going right over their heads".

Viscount724 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:06 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Over the years I've heard that Boeing throws in a full tank of gas with every new delivery (if the mission allows it)

There are Boeing purchase contracts on the internet (often have to be filed with the Securities & Exchange Commission depending on how they're being financed etc.)

This one is 10 years old, involving a 737-800 order for Gol in Brazil.
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/da...95012304007706/y97722a2exv10w4.txt

It includes the following paragraphs which were probably standard then. Not sure if anything has changed since 2004 (except adding the 787 and deleting the 757). At that time Boeing only provided 1,000 to 4,000 U.S. gallons of fuel for the delivery flight without charge, depending on aircaft type.

4.4 Fuel Provided by Boeing.

Boeing will provide to Customer, without charge, the amount of fuel shown in U.S. gallons in the table below for the model of Aircraft being delivered and full capacity of engine oil at the time of delivery or prior to the ferry flight of the Aircraft.

AIRCRAFT MODEL,,,,,FUEL PROVIDED
--------------------------.....------------------------
737.................................1,000
747.................................4,000
757.................................1,600
767.................................2,000
777.................................3,000

4.5 Flight Crew and Passenger Consumables.

Boeing will provide, at no charge to Customer, reasonable quantities of food, coat hangers, towels, toilet tissue, drinking cups and soap for the first segment of the ferry flight for the Aircraft.

Another paragraph elsewhere in the contact referring to fuel for the delivery flight (in a list of information required from the customer prior to delivery):

(i) the name of the company which is to furnish fuel for the ferry flight and any scheduled post-delivery flight training, the method of payment for such fuel, and fuel load for the ferry flight;

flyorski · Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting barney captain (Reply 22):
We ferried that a/c to GEG for painting - to become Heart One (and no, I didn't leak the pics ) When we dropped it off at the paint shop, the painters were shocked because before they could move it in to the hanger, it had to be defuled - all remaining 42000 lbs. To the best of my knowledge, Jet-A that's been removed from an a/c can't be used again (except maybe as a diesel alternative in ground equipment). Does anyone know for certain?

Once fuel is defueled it has to be recerted and then can be placed back aboard only aircraft from the same airline.

Luftfahrer · Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
737 can't dump. They'd have to fly around for 4 hours before landing at SEA.

Hey, don't spoil my joke!

Anyway, it wouldn't even have to dump fuel/circle around the airport. I just checked and the aircraft would be well below the maximum landing weight with full tanks. There would still be room for some passengers (AS apparently does this).

SAAFNAV · Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 4):
*Offer does not apply to the KC-767 tankers.

With all the hair splitting, this comment was seriously overlooked....

FlightShadow · Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:10 pm

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 37):

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 4):
*Offer does not apply to the KC-767 tankers.

ORDJOE · Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:04 pm

In my old job we I have been involved in the purchase of certain large equipment, nothing on boeing scale but think more like low 7 figures. It is common for them to include incidentals and other things to get delivery and implementation. As said you can easily tuck $50k worth and other things needed for the delivery flight into a $100 million purchase. If anything else from boing could sort of build in $55k into the purchase price for fuel when it only cost them $50k, when you are dealing with purchases that big stuff like that is easy (note I am not accusing or implying boeing does that, but I am sure certain other products that are in that league pull stuff like that)

If anything else it makes sense for boeing to just include fuel. I can not picture any airline arranging to have some fuel truck drive to Paine field so they can use their fuel instead of boeings fuel.

Another perspective, the buyer can ask for what ever they want when negotiating purchase price. I am not sure how much it is to fill a 77W to the top, but I somehow think it is not all that much to do that in the grand scheme of things, afterall a 77W is 200million. They can do it for goodwill, or a way to get a better offer from the client.

Viscount724 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:31 pm

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 39):
If anything else it makes sense for Boeing to just include fuel. I can not picture any airline arranging to have some fuel truck drive to Paine field so they can use their fuel instead of Boeing's fuel.

There may be more than one fuel supplier at PAE considering all the general aviation and maintenance activities, other than Boeing. Some airlines may also have overall contracts with certain fuel suppliers where prices may be lower than they'd get from Boeing.

bond007 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 37):

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 4):
*Offer does not apply to the KC-767 tankers.

With all the hair splitting, this comment was seriously overlooked....

Totally missed

Jimbo

Rara · Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:00 pm

So after 40 posts, we basically have no answer to the original question. And some even claim it wasn't a question to start with.

One guy claims Boeing sells the fuel, another guy claims Boeing always fills the aircraft to the brim, and a third guy claims to Boeing provides SOME fuel, based on aircraft type.

We're left none the wiser. What exactly is the point of this thread?

32andBelow · Thu Oct 09, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 40):
There may be more than one fuel supplier at PAE considering all the general aviation and maintenance activities, other than Boeing. Some airlines may also have overall contracts with certain fuel suppliers where prices may be lower than they'd get from Boeing

http://www.airnav.com/airport/KPAE

Anyone can definitely purchase fuel at PAE.

ChicagoFlyer · Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:42 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Over the years I've heard that Boeing throws in a full tank of gas with every new delivery (if the mission allows it)

That is a lot of money, especially on a B747, anyone know if this is true and / or know if Airbus does the same thing ?

I can only speak to the 737 in my answer. When the aircraft rolls out of the Renton factory, Boeing obviously does a test flight (designated B1). If something is not quite right, they do a B2, B3, B4 etc... until the a/c is in tip-top flying shape for delivery to customer. At which point customer, as part of the acceptance, does their own acceptance flight, dubbed C1. 95+% of the time, everything has been checked so many times that there are no issues. Boeing obviously bears costs of the C1 flight (and their stated goal is that there's no need for a flight C2 etc). On a 737, the customer confidence is obviously high, and I have been part of transactions where 737 was delivered with sufficient fuel for the flyaway flight (not full tanks), paid for Boeing, in return for customer waiving the flight test.

So, nothing is truly free, unless it's part of the contract. Of course, if I am a customer taking a relatively new aircraft model (cough... 787... cough), I am not waiving my acceptance flight, but on the 737 it's a pretty safe bet (plus of course, if you find issues later, there's always warranty).

vanguard737 · Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 10):
You are missing the point.

How exactly is he missing the point? I can only assume there is a pre-determined answer to your question that you are waiting to hear. And if that is the case, what exactly is YOUR point for this post?

ltbewr · Fri Oct 10, 2014 1:56 am

Perhaps the tanks are filled to capacity to do a final check of the tanks, fuel measuring and related system.

airportugal310 · Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 46):
Perhaps the tanks are filled to capacity to do a final check of the tanks, fuel measuring and related system.

Doubtful. That can easily be checked during a taxi test or a flight test...

rhody · Fri Oct 10, 2014 2:16 am

Was just on the Everett factory tour the other day.

Tour guide said Boeing throws in ~1/3 tank of fuel for each delivered plane. Topping off was on the airline's dime.

A320FlyGuy · Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:29 am

I would imagine that it is built into the price somewhere....I drive an Audi TT-S roadster and my partner has an Audi Q5....both vehicles came with "Free Maintenance" for the first four years of ownership.... In theory, all I do is put gas in and drove the car and Audi will take care of everything else...light bulbs, tires, wiper blades....everything.....in reality it is just a sales grab.... I've already paid for the maintenance.... I can't imagine Boeing filling up the tanks gratis and saying "ta ta"....

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net