• 1
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
 
zakuivcustom
Posts: 1628
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:32 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:19 pm

Noshow wrote:
Wouldn't it be more promising to just build a proven, ready developed western design in China at local low wages first? Then increase the rate and bring their industry up to standards? Just one big project like one bomber, doesn't cut it. They need suppliers, services, global marketing and such. And high rates.

One day China will do it and they can order their airlines to buy chinese first.


You mean how they already do the final assemblies for A320 in Tianjin? :scratchchin: . Yes, most of those goes to Chinese airlines (the only exception I know is AirAsia), but that’s also bc HAM and TLS can’t pump out A320s fast enough.

gregpodpl wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Don't underestimate China, in 10 years they will probably be laughing at you....its just a matter of time before they will master and perfect plane making.


Maybe a little bit longer than 10 years. We still didn't get to the point where Chinese cars (not counting Chinese owned - western companies) are available in the western world. So it's more like 30 years.


Bc, well, any Chinese that have some money doesn’t buy the like of Geely either. Chinese auto companies are definitely capturing more and more of the “3rd world” market, though.

Also, personally I would watch for their development in Electric Cars. China is pushing that hard, unlike, well, good ‘ol truck loving, the bigger the better, ‘merika.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:30 pm

I think this CR929 will not do well in the international market. They may sell a few hundred to Chinese and Russian airlines who are "forced" to buy it and may sell a few dozens outside these markets, but in general no. Even if the quality is up to standards and if the price and economics are competitive, they will not have the required infrastructure in place to handle the on the spot maintenance. I see this CR929 as the next step in a process, their next attempt will probably be successful in 15-20 years time.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Also, personally I would watch for their development in Electric Cars. China is pushing that hard


This.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
airbazar
Posts: 8913
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:42 pm

gregpodpl wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Don't underestimate China, in 10 years they will probably be laughing at you....its just a matter of time before they will master and perfect plane making.


Maybe a little bit longer than 10 years. We still didn't get to the point where Chinese cars (not counting Chinese owned - western companies) are available in the western world. So it's more like 30 years.

A lot more than that. Mastering plane making is one thing. We know the Chinese can manufacture anything. Mastering plane development is a completely different ball game. China has been making planes for 10 years (and Russia a lot longer than that), and Chinese&Russian made planes outside of those countries are too few and far in between. For a comparison, look at their space program. They are still planing on putting a man on the moon.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5221
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:45 pm

Delta operates a few Chinese built MD90's. Granted, Boeing, Airbus, and McDonnell douglas were responsible for the overall design. Historically Russian and Chinese designed planes are filled with problems, even the SSJ with help from so many foreign entities has problems.

Per usual for something out of China, the design looks awfully close to the 787. Both countries have been known to steal designs.
Last edited by burnsie28 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:46 pm

Maybe they could build the retro 757 and then all those A-Neters who think Boeing made a big mistake when they quit build this airplane could see how that turns out?
 
gia777
Posts: 85
Joined: Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:59 pm

I will never ever step into any plane that is made in china. Look at MA60 case. Even for free..
Cheers,

GIA777 :coffee:
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:01 pm

FatCat wrote:
it's no new news, Boeing will open an assembly line in China https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boein ... 2018-04-25
Airbus already does, https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... anufa.html
and both buy parts for their planes made there, so with much probability, you've already stepped in an airplane made in china
also your $ 800 iPhone is made there, and 90% of the things you use everyday ...
low quality - garbage things can be made in other Countries as well, you'll remember certainly the failed audit and the severe consequences of the under-standard vertical fin (or stabilizers? can't remember well) for the 767s made in Italy...


This is patently false.

The iPhone is assembled in China and has many US, German, and Korean components.

90% of what I use every day is not "made in china" - maybe assembled but definitely not made.

As someone who works in Supply Chain, I can tell you that much of what is made in china that goes into U.S. finished goods is lower in the value chain or consumer goods.

If you look at the hollistic view, you'll see that US Manufacturing (without jobs, because automation) has been on a boom in the last couple of decades:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimvinoski ... c2abcb3884

Image
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 15665
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:03 pm

Loran wrote:
dik909 wrote:
All fair points, indeed.

Since I'm not a pilot, but rather am just a flying aficionado, I was approaching the issue more from the perspective of a passenger.

As a passenger, when selecting a flight, if faced with an option of a Boeing/Airbus versus a 'Made in China' airplane, I would actively avoid the Chinese aircraft, even if it meant paying a little more.

I have flown on the ARJ-21, and it is from a passenger perspective nothing worse than a regular Airbus/Boeing/Embraer product. In fact I was postively surprised of the build-quality. Here's a video I recorded: https://youtu.be/0jnnE79RGt4

The average passeneger wouldn't even realize he stepped into a chinese-built plane. Knowing it is a legacy airframe of the MD-80 production line in China, with CF34 engines.

I agree with the others that it is a matter of time until China will catch up on commercial airliners. They probably won't reach comparable Airbus/Boeing standards anytime soon, but they may be successful in establishing a low-cost alternative to western products (such as the SSJ to the ERJs, etc.).

Regards,
Loran

You do realize how many of those ARJ-21s are required to support the flight? Western aircraft are benchmarked on many fronts as failing any one costs an airline money. You do realize it was somehow certified without a production certification (that is just weird)?

Chengdu airlines has 8, yet I do not see the 50+ flights per day it takes to pay for a new RJ. People post the flights, but they are up to what? 7 or 8 flights per day?
https://www.airfleets.net/exploit/production-arj21.htm

The C919 doesn't meet cockpit rules:
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... -standards
They skip reading the rules and then wonder why they cannot get FAA certification.

Will they keep trying? Yes. But they need to be better than a used widebody. I'm sure their airlines will have no choice but to buy the domestic product.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
User avatar
Nomadd
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:04 pm

RalXWB wrote:
People laughing about China are quite narrow-minded. Look at the environmental sector for example, China is already a leader there. Underestimating China is a mistake...a bigly one.

You can't look at much of anything because of the heavy smog blanketing the country. If you could see through the haze caused by being the biggest coal users in the world by a long shot, you could see the fleets on their way to kill of whatever life remains in the ocean following their decades of wiping it clean, and the wastelands that remain of jungle Chinese money has destroyed, and the few remaining members of species that are near extinction because idiots think they're the key to bigger wangs.
 
FatCat
Posts: 577
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:02 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:26 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
FatCat wrote:
it's no new news, Boeing will open an assembly line in China https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boein ... 2018-04-25
Airbus already does, https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... anufa.html
and both buy parts for their planes made there, so with much probability, you've already stepped in an airplane made in china
also your $ 800 iPhone is made there, and 90% of the things you use everyday ...
low quality - garbage things can be made in other Countries as well, you'll remember certainly the failed audit and the severe consequences of the under-standard vertical fin (or stabilizers? can't remember well) for the 767s made in Italy...


This is patently false.

The iPhone is assembled in China and has many US, German, and Korean components.

90% of what I use every day is not "made in china" - maybe assembled but definitely not made.

As someone who works in Supply Chain, I can tell you that much of what is made in china that goes into U.S. finished goods is lower in the value chain or consumer goods.

If you look at the hollistic view, you'll see that US Manufacturing (without jobs, because automation) has been on a boom in the last couple of decades:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimvinoski ... c2abcb3884

Image


I cannot give you discredit on that, thus I cannot give you complete credit.
You can quote international laws and they will give you full reason and credit because an object manufactured in the US, even if it is made 100% with Chinese ( or else ) components, will result as "made in USA".
Thanks to those laws, you'll go shopping your Lady a nice $ 1000 Italian purse, with a big tag that says "made in Italy", but you'll never know that here only the zip, or a button, are attached, whilst the 99% of the finished product is made in China or India.
I agree we're comparing apples to oranges and that a purse is not an airplane, and airplane components have to pass through though tests and have high standards. But it's a nice discussion, even if off topic.
Thanks for your contribution
May my post not hurt your feelings
 
User avatar
Loran
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:13 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:39 pm

lightsaber wrote:
You do realize how many of those ARJ-21s are required to support the flight? Western aircraft are benchmarked on many fronts as failing any one costs an airline money. You do realize it was somehow certified without a production certification (that is just weird)?

You do realize I was talking about the build-quality as a passenger perception?

I am fully aware of the operational aspects, how many aircraft, roations, etc. the design presently delivers, which no doubt is poor. In fact, we had a over 2h delay that day and it was a mess, but this is not limited to the ARJ, I have been in several similar instances in China with other types.

I would however not underestimate their ability to learn, a big mistake in my opinion. As mentioned above, I do no tbelieve their new widebody product will become a competitor to the A/B widebodies, however they may sell okayish on their domestic market and secondary markets such as Africa.

Regards,
Loran
703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 359 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL1/8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2 YK4/2
 
Ziyulu
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:35 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:39 pm

It can't get any worse than a 3-3-3 787 or 3-4-3 777?
 
airbazar
Posts: 8913
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:58 pm

FatCat wrote:
Thanks to those laws, you'll go shopping your Lady a nice $ 1000 Italian purse, with a big tag that says "made in Italy", but you'll never know that here only the zip, or a button, are attached, whilst the 99% of the finished product is made in China or India.
I agree we're comparing apples to oranges and that a purse is not an airplane, and airplane components have to pass through though tests and have high standards. But it's a nice discussion, even if off topic.
Thanks for your contribution

That is 100% not true. Italy has some of the most strict rules in the World in this regard. Look up the "Made in Italy" regulations please before posting such blatant ignorance.
Yes you can buy a fake "made in Italy" purse in Chinatown but that sure as hell isn't going to cost $1000 and I don't think that is what you were implying.
In the U.S. for products to have the "Made in USA" label, 95% of the product including the raw materials must be source in the U.S. otherwise the most it can be is "Assembled in the USA." I know this because I live 5 miles from a New Balance shoe factory and was curious why some shoes that are made here do not have the "Made in USA" label. Italy is even more strict, 100% of the product needs to be made in Italy.

Loran wrote:
I would however not underestimate their ability to learn, a big mistake in my opinion.

It's not ability to learn, it's ability to innovate that's the problem.
In order to innovate you need free thinkers and an education system and society that encourages people to break the mold to defy rules. Tha tis completely foreign in China and until that changes, China will not be able to do any more than reproduce and apply existing technology which means their own products will always be one step behind.
 
neutronstar73
Posts: 756
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 7:57 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:03 pm

airbazar wrote:
gregpodpl wrote:
sibibom wrote:
Don't underestimate China, in 10 years they will probably be laughing at you....its just a matter of time before they will master and perfect plane making.


Maybe a little bit longer than 10 years. We still didn't get to the point where Chinese cars (not counting Chinese owned - western companies) are available in the western world. So it's more like 30 years.

A lot more than that. Mastering plane making is one thing. We know the Chinese can manufacture anything. Mastering plane development is a completely different ball game. China has been making planes for 10 years (and Russia a lot longer than that), and Chinese&Russian made planes outside of those countries are too few and far in between. For a comparison, look at their space program. They are still planing on putting a man on the moon.


I predicted to my friends and family in 1996 that China will become a big mover in industry, and will have/has the resources and long-term vision to see it through. And they all thought I was crazy. I said McDonnell Douglas would regret building the MD series planes there (look where that went), and Boeing and Airbus will regret it, too.

And.....here we are. And people are still underestimating them. All you have to do is see their moves in Africa and South/Central America, and their rail systems they've built. They were/are aggressively bidding on the California HSR project, and they have a very impressive system at home. Not to mention their dominance in environmental systems (solar, wind turbines, etc). Don't make the same mistake in aerospace.....we already have reports of China trying its best to penetrate every single Western aerospace company and program to get "research on the cheap" (otherwise known as stealing/espionage)
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:06 pm

Nomadd wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
People laughing about China are quite narrow-minded. Look at the environmental sector for example, China is already a leader there. Underestimating China is a mistake...a bigly one.

You can't look at much of anything because of the heavy smog blanketing the country. If you could see through the haze caused by being the biggest coal users in the world by a long shot, you could see the fleets on their way to kill of whatever life remains in the ocean following their decades of wiping it clean, and the wastelands that remain of jungle Chinese money has destroyed, and the few remaining members of species that are near extinction because idiots think they're the key to bigger wangs.


You do realize that China is moving towards clean energy at a pace that makes everyone except some Western Europeans jealous, they're building windmills and solar panels like they're going out of style, they're planting trees over an area the size of Portugal over the last few years, and they lead the world in aquaculture?

They're also going to be building the C929 (or whatever they're gonna call it) and be successful, but I doubt anyone outside of Russia's and China's spheres of influence will buy it - not that it will matter because that will be a thousand frames by itself.

Clean Energy: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... vised-plan
Aquaculture: https://thediplomat.com/2018/03/can-aqu ... china-sea/ (60% of global aqua-farming)
Reforestation: https://www.ecowatch.com/china-reforest ... 93906.html

To dismiss China is dangerous...and Boeing/Airbus need to step up their game with their next generation of aircraft to stay ahead of China as the 929 seems like a 787/350 hybrid much like the MC21 and C919 are A320/737 style planes.

Engine makers should also be worried...
 
User avatar
Loran
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:13 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:56 pm

airbazar wrote:
It's not ability to learn, it's ability to innovate that's the problem.
In order to innovate you need free thinkers and an education system and society that encourages people to break the mold to defy rules. Tha tis completely foreign in China and until that changes, China will not be able to do any more than reproduce and apply existing technology which means their own products will always be one step behind.

While I fully agree that free thinking individuals are the source of all the technology and wealth of the western world, China has set up a master plan to circumnavigate this lack of free thinking by strategically investing into foreign companies which already developed such know-how. This way, the technology can be transferred without having to innovate it by themselves.

If this leads to a success needs to be seen, I am sceptical myself, however China's masterplan of becoming a leading world power has progressed further than people may be thinking. This includes the silk-way 2.0 project, strategic engagement in Africa, doubling its military expenses, military presence worldwide, green energy production, and many other elements.

Regards,
Loran
703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 359 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL1/8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2 YK4/2
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 738
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:11 pm

Nomadd wrote:
and the few remaining members of species that are near extinction because idiots think they're the key to bigger wangs.


This always breaks my heart into a million pieces...
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
ZhuLEI
Posts: 4
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:28 pm

Nomadd wrote:
You can't look at much of anything because of the heavy smog blanketing the country. If you could see through the haze caused by being the biggest coal users in the world by a long shot, you could see the fleets on their way to kill of whatever life remains in the ocean following their decades of wiping it clean, and the wastelands that remain of jungle Chinese money has destroyed, and the few remaining members of species that are near extinction because idiots think they're the key to bigger wangs.


You are very anti-Chinese racist, the Peoples Republic of China is leader in clean technology especally solar panels nowadays. Your country not to participate in Paris Agreement to end the carbon releases and global warming.
 
ILNFlyer
Posts: 287
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:34 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:29 pm

sibibom wrote:
Don't underestimate China, in 10 years they will probably be laughing at you....its just a matter of time before they will master and perfect plane making.


Through reverse engineering, no doubt.
 
User avatar
enilria
Posts: 8633
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:32 pm

dik909 wrote:
What are your thoughts on this ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-airshow-comac/china-russia-unveil-life-size-model-of-planned-widebody-jet-at-zhuhai-airshow-idUSKCN1NB0CL

Personally, I don't see it getting far off the ground, (no pun intended), at least in the west where 'Made In China' instantly implies low-quality junk/garbage. I mean, really, how comfortable would you feel stepping into a 'Made in China' airplane ?

Maybe it'll see more/better sales with Asian carriers where 'Made In China' doesn't carry with it such negative connotations ??

Of course, I could be completely wrong; just my own two cents.

They've already unveiled plans after the 929 to build 939..., and 989 before making the 919. ;)
 
B757Forever
Posts: 761
Joined: Tue May 04, 2010 3:23 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:43 pm

Aircraft are a huge investment. Buyers of Boeing and Airbus aircraft buy them with high confidence that there will be factory engineering and material support for the life of the aircraft. The Chinese are more than capable of building high quality products. Making a product is a huge hurdle, supporting it for many years is even bigger. The question that would linger in my mind is whether or not they will reliably support that product for it's expected lifespan.
The Rolls Royce Dart. Noise = Shaft Horsepower.
 
ewt340
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:07 pm

1. The fuselage is not composite.
2. The plane are not tailored for majority of airlines around the world. (A318, A340-500, B737-600 and B777-200LR come to mind)
3. Comac doesn't have the Reputation yet for :
a. Ability to produce aircraft accordingly to the demand.
b. High Reliability for their products.
c. Ability to hold up promises and security (To be fair, this is CPP and Putin Government's reputation at fault).
d. Passengers approval.
4. Still no info or calculations regarding Fuel burn and fuel efficiency compared to aircrafts from Airbus and Boeing.

This would be a failure, because the Russians and the Chinese government doesn't have their internal critics that would tell them if the plane is shit or not.
They also would have problems where their pride would take a center stage instead of the products. This would be dangerous because they would try to cover up faults instead if admitting they make a mistake and fixing it right away.
 
User avatar
PW100
Posts: 3124
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 9:17 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:30 pm

dik909 wrote:
What are your thoughts on this ?


This would provide some back ground info and further thoughts from our community:
Airliners.net: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft
Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
 
User avatar
Erebus
Posts: 682
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:42 pm

Boeing had a 929 decades before China.

https://youtu.be/2nBf9eafIn4?t=107

To bring up the iPhone and other everyday consumer goods as a sign of China's advance in quality, I think it is a bit of a stretch to compare those to an engineering exercise as complex as building an airliner. They have a very long way to go before they come close to being a key player challenging the current duopoly and if you said that it would be 10 years from now, I'd have expected China to have advanced in other less complex industries, like the automotive industry for instance. They are still lagging behind in those.
 
User avatar
JetBuddy
Posts: 1992
Joined: Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:04 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:52 pm

China is about 50 years behind the West in space technology. They're at least 30-40 years behind in aviation technology. Their "best" product so far is a refurbished 1980s American design. Or 1960s, depending on how you see it.

I think they'll catch up relatively quickly if they put the resources into it. But these models will not sell outside China or Russia for decades to come.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
Posts: 187
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think this CR929 will not do well in the international market. They may sell a few hundred to Chinese and Russian airlines who are "forced" to buy it and may sell a few dozens outside these markets, but in general no. Even if the quality is up to standards and if the price and economics are competitive, they will not have the required infrastructure in place to handle the on the spot maintenance. I see this CR929 as the next step in a process, their next attempt will probably be successful in 15-20 years time.

zakuivcustom wrote:
Also, personally I would watch for their development in Electric Cars. China is pushing that hard


This.


The issue isn't the build quality or engineering design - it's spare parts and maintenance that will determine how well this sells. Renault, Citroen, and Peugot left the American market for cars simply because the distribution of parts and service wasn't profitable for them. Airlines are going to be in the same boat: "I'm sending this plane halfway around the world - I'd better have the ability to fix this plane if something minor goes wrong, because otherwise, I'll lose money!"

However, if China was to use this plane solely on domestic routes AND had a parts supplier ready, then years of operations would work out the bugs, and then expansion could happen.

I'm curious, though: given how much overlap on American/European/common parts there are on Airbus & Boeing (and probably Embraer & Bombardier!), would this plane be completely free of American and/or European parts?
 
airzona11
Posts: 1277
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:21 pm

While anything is possible, until there are any passenger planes built at scale, A and B will be the only shops in town. EMB and BBD are struggling immensely, ATR is near irrelevant in the passenger segment. Companies with aerospace expertise like McD and Lockheed have all left the market. Building commercial aircraft is hard. A and B have scaled to meet the growing global demand. It will be much easier for A or B to add a flight line, that it will be for this conglomerate to reach full-scale production.
 
c933103
Posts: 2835
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:24 pm

The key part of that news report is the life size model part... By removing that, most other information including the partnership itself was announced months back.
 
MaksFly
Posts: 261
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:50 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:41 pm

RalXWB wrote:
People laughing about China are quite narrow-minded. Look at the environmental sector for example, China is already a leader there. Underestimating China is a mistake...a bigly one.


Spot on... the majority of the people in the West (Europe and North America) are completely ignorant of a simple issue... demographics. The next few decades will be all about Asian emergence. When it comes to airlines... future demand is in ASIA, not the west.

I am in wealth management and smarter Westerners are already trying to see what they can do to transition there with a few noted investment managers and advisors are completely uprooting their family and moving to Asia, teaching their children Mandarin.

As far as "Made in China" = "Junk," that is a completely sophomoric attitude, it would be like saying every store in America sells low quality good because Walmart is the largest retailer and there are tons of dollar stores.

When it comes to China manufacturing, it is about two things... availability and capacity, something lacking here. China is no longer a "low cost" producer and in fact, those companies seeking the lowest costs have already moved on elsewhere.

Quality is all about the goals... do you want quality above all else or do you want lowest price? The Junk you think of is largely AMERICAN COMPANIES ORDERING AT THE LOWEST PRICE POSSIBLE.

If you want to see Chinese quality, go pick up a high end Rolex, Patek, or an Omega watch.
 
airbazar
Posts: 8913
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:46 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
You do realize that China is moving towards clean energy at a pace that makes everyone except some Western Europeans jealous, they're building windmills and solar panels like they're going out of style, they're planting trees over an area the size of Portugal over the last few years, and they lead the world in aquaculture?

Yes all true but you must look at it in relative terms, not absolute terms. China is how many times bigger than Western Europe? They have also destroyed forests many times the size of Portugal. All of those seemingly good things still pale in comparison to all the destruction that they have caused and continue to cause around the world.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/anim ... ger-legal/

MaksFly wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
People laughing about China are quite narrow-minded. Look at the environmental sector for example, China is already a leader there. Underestimating China is a mistake...a bigly one.


Spot on... the majority of the people in the West (Europe and North America) are completely ignorant of a simple issue... demographics. The next few decades will be all about Asian emergence. When it comes to airlines... future demand is in ASIA, not the west.

Actually that has been true for the last decade. All people are saying is they don't have the know-how and won't have it any time soon, to mass produce cutting-edge airplanes for the World. In 50 years, maybe. Not in 10.
 
Wayfarer515
Posts: 645
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:56 pm

Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Nov 08, 2018 5:51 am

 
User avatar
dik909
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:56 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:40 am

ewt340 wrote:
...the Russians and the Chinese government doesn't have their internal critics that would tell them if the plane is shit or not.


Very interesting point. Their success in this endeavor depends upon the extent to which they're willing to let go of their old Communistic ways..
The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.
 
2175301
Posts: 1275
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:19 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:59 am

airbazar wrote:
Actually that has been true for the last decade. All people are saying is they don't have the know-how and won't have it any time soon, to mass produce cutting-edge airplanes for the World. In 50 years, maybe. Not in 10.


I would disagree with your 50 year number. Certainly not 10. 20-30 is plausible IF they apply enough resources and IF they adopt western style critique and QA methods.

The current political climate does not seem to favor adoption of the western style critique and QA methods at this time.

Furthermore: They will never be competitive to western products without adoption of western style critique and QA methods. Not even in 100 or 200 years.

Have a great day,
 
hz747300
Posts: 2265
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:45 am

sibibom wrote:
Don't underestimate China, in 10 years they will probably be laughing at you....its just a matter of time before they will master and perfect plane making.


I don't disagree, but I think the time horizon is longer, maybe not in our lifetime (I am just over 40). They'll have to get through the pains that the 1-child policy caused since it lasted more than one generation, come out on the other side, and assume that the leadership of China and Russia are the same in behavior, aims, goals until such time. Another reason I think so, is they have been manufacturing planes for a while, yet only low tier Chinese and some SE Asian Countries have bought them and fly them regularly. If China Eastern, Southern, etc.. had them in regular rotation, then it could come sooner.
Keep on truckin'...
 
Noshow
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:52 am

Good point.
India will take over China by population in the foreseeable future. Another aviation nation to look out for.
 
inferno
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2006 10:15 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:59 am

At this point I trust China and Russia more than the USA now. USA's manufacturing has become more politics than moving the technology forward. China is ambitious and laser focused on nation-building. Russia has a history of supreme technological innovation that they want to revive. Remember they were first in space and made a wide array of aircraft despite all the embargoes and them a being poor, agrarian country early in the 20th century.

I am sorry. USA will become the future Greece. Chinese and Russian tourists will flock to the USA to see the ruins of a once great civilization.
 
DominoxX
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:52 pm

Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:03 am

Please people, please. No Latin American airline will buy a Chinese aircraft, except for maybe Venezuela, Cuba and Bolivia. China's influence in Latin America is very contested by latino governments, like, Chile rejected a Chinese consortium into building a freight and medium speed railway between Santiago and the port of Valparaiso, because they could tell it was quite sketchy (eg: the project citing obsolete railway laws from the 1930s) , hell, even the general public was sceptical of China's motives too. Argentina may be buying Chinese trains but Aerolíneas won't buy a Chinese aircraft; LATAM won't, Azul won't, Avianca won't, Aeroméxico won't. This may sound slightly off-topic but it's to inform this thread that youse are overestimating C929's market in Latin America.
All I need in life is a QF/LA biz seat for me and my malinois doggo, edibles and the 2000's best diva hits
 
oceanvikram
Posts: 31
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:00 pm

Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 pm

I too have some negative bias towards Russian and Chinese business model and their companies, however IMHO I believe this plane can be a disruptor (as per business text books) to Airbus and Boeing for the following reasons:
[list=]Any country that has borrowed heavily from China will be required to buy the plane
Any country (Most of Africa and Latin America) which does not have the infrastructure and/or sophistication to service an advanced aircraft (from Boeing or Airbus) would prefer to go with a less advanced plane. If my understanding is correct many African airlines get their planes check and serviced either by the manufacturer at the manufacturers facility or by other airlines in their maintenance facility.
Any airline which has no reputation and needs new aircrafts, the Chinese part of the venture will be more than willing finance or lease the planes at much competitive rates than their western counterparts.
The JV partners, I am sure, would be more than willing to do an Eastern-Airbus deal (Try out the aircraft for a fixed period of time for free) to highly reputable airlines and/or airlines in the developed nations.[/list]

Now let us say the Western regulatory authorities are not satisfied with the plane. That is fine, the airlines can use it domestically or between destinations where regulatory authority have approved.

So it may not happen overnight but it will happen. I wish them the best of luck and as an aviation enthusiast, the more variety of manufacturers and planes, will definitely make the skies more colourful.
 
ewt340
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:16 pm

inferno wrote:
At this point I trust China and Russia more than the USA now. USA's manufacturing has become more politics than moving the technology forward. China is ambitious and laser focused on nation-building. Russia has a history of supreme technological innovation that they want to revive. Remember they were first in space and made a wide array of aircraft despite all the embargoes and them a being poor, agrarian country early in the 20th century.

I am sorry. USA will become the future Greece. Chinese and Russian tourists will flock to the USA to see the ruins of a once great civilization.


It wouldn't happen because the US is safe haven for many millionaires and billionaires. They would defo kept the status quo.

The thing that make people got turned off by the Russians or the Chinese government is their extreme restrictions. Not their lack of innovation.
 
User avatar
Nomadd
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:44 pm

ZhuLEI wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
You can't look at much of anything because of the heavy smog blanketing the country. If you could see through the haze caused by being the biggest coal users in the world by a long shot, you could see the fleets on their way to kill of whatever life remains in the ocean following their decades of wiping it clean, and the wastelands that remain of jungle Chinese money has destroyed, and the few remaining members of species that are near extinction because idiots think they're the key to bigger wangs.


You are very anti-Chinese racist, the Peoples Republic of China is leader in clean technology especally solar panels nowadays. Your country not to participate in Paris Agreement to end the carbon releases and global warming.

My country is one of the few that's actually reducing carbon output, while China's is soaring.
You're tirade is very anti-reality.
But feel free to continue your "Every criticism of China is racist" crap.
 
TheKennady2
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:17 pm

I been to China 3 times, never Russia. But as far as China, its certainlly emerging as a dominant global force and will only become more powerful and influential. Give them time and i beleive they can indeed make aircraft to compete with the Boeing/Airbus Duo. Im all for more competition and planes. I hope they can be successful. People think just because a plane might not sell in the west that makes it a failure, the west is not everything, people fly all over the world and airlines want planes. Even if the planes sell in nonwestern countries they can still make a impact.
 
ewt340
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:23 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
I been to China 3 times, never Russia. But as far as China, its certainlly emerging as a dominant global force and will only become more powerful and influential. Give them time and i beleive they can indeed make aircraft to compete with the Boeing/Airbus Duo. Im all for more competition and planes. I hope they can be successful. People think just because a plane might not sell in the west that makes it a failure, the west is not everything, people fly all over the world and airlines want planes. Even if the planes sell in nonwestern countries they can still make a impact.


Well of course in the future countries like China, India, Indonesia or Brazil would emerge as the new players. But for now, they have problems with their current and next project. It is not bad because it's Chinese or Russians, It is bad because the design of the plane is bad.
 
TheKennady2
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:09 pm

Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 2:37 pm

ewt340 wrote:
TheKennady2 wrote:
I been to China 3 times, never Russia. But as far as China, its certainlly emerging as a dominant global force and will only become more powerful and influential. Give them time and i beleive they can indeed make aircraft to compete with the Boeing/Airbus Duo. Im all for more competition and planes. I hope they can be successful. People think just because a plane might not sell in the west that makes it a failure, the west is not everything, people fly all over the world and airlines want planes. Even if the planes sell in nonwestern countries they can still make a impact.


Well of course in the future countries like China, India, Indonesia or Brazil would emerge as the new players. But for now, they have problems with their current and next project. It is not bad because it's Chinese or Russians, It is bad because the design of the plane is bad.


Which planes to be specific? ARJ?
 
ewt340
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 3:21 pm

TheKennady2 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
TheKennady2 wrote:
I been to China 3 times, never Russia. But as far as China, its certainlly emerging as a dominant global force and will only become more powerful and influential. Give them time and i beleive they can indeed make aircraft to compete with the Boeing/Airbus Duo. Im all for more competition and planes. I hope they can be successful. People think just because a plane might not sell in the west that makes it a failure, the west is not everything, people fly all over the world and airlines want planes. Even if the planes sell in nonwestern countries they can still make a impact.


Well of course in the future countries like China, India, Indonesia or Brazil would emerge as the new players. But for now, they have problems with their current and next project. It is not bad because it's Chinese or Russians, It is bad because the design of the plane is bad.


Which planes to be specific? ARJ?


Yeah, and the CR929 as well. It would fail. Why would you produce a wide-body aircraft with Aluminium fuselage in these days and age. Sure we got B777-9X and A330-900neo, but those are older aircraft utilize at maximum capability that is being overtaken by B787 and A350.

It would be available around 2026+ btw.
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2302
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:23 pm

Their high speed train system was compromised in an entire plethora of problems. But ..... They did it and it seems to be working well. And I suspect it is as complicated a system as any plane.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4527
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:16 pm

Sure, China and Russia have the technical potential to compete with Airbus and Boeing, but I seriously doubt that A&B have much to worry about for the next few decades.

The ARJ has been most of 2 decades in the making. It's pretty much a copy of the 1960's era MD-80, and it's still mostly MIA...especially damning considering China had an MD factory they could use for practice.

The SSJ is by most accounts a very good aircraft built to modern standards but support for even that small fleet seems to be sorely lacking. At even the most optimistic projections, by the middle of next decade, MS-21 annual production rates won't even equal 1/2 month's production for either the 320 or 737 lines.

The COMAC and MS aircraft will probably be excellently engineered but producing, selling and servicing commercial airlines with the quality and in the quantities needed to compete, is orders of magnitude more difficult than anything either country has done before...and so far, there isn't much evidence that things will change much for decades to come.
What the...?
 
ScottB
Posts: 6250
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:55 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
1:1 cabin mockup presented today at the Zuhai airhow:


Pretty, but that's like saying the Russians are ready to start mass production of the Mir space station because there's a mockup in the Cosmonaut Museum in Moscow.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 237
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:17 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
747megatop wrote:
scbriml wrote:

I think that is an oversimplified way of putting it. Airline purchases have been and will always be a factor in the massive & complex geo-political landscape. Massive trade surplus is just one factor. It remains to be seen -->

1) How geo-politics play out between the major powers & economies.

For example; India; a major & potentially fast growing aviation market next only to China is a MAJOR anti-china power who i very much doubt will be buying any Chinese made aircraft. Ditto with Japan. Those 2 markets can pretty much be ruled out as customers for Chinese aircraft barring a miracle and are guaranteed to be A or B customers.

Speaking of geo-politics; China IS the reason why India and Japan are not part of the consortium building this aircraft...China would rather steam roll these countries with it's military and the only thing stopping that is US. This is a good thing for A & B which otherwise would have had to contend with competition from a consortium comprising Russia+China+Japan+India all four of which have a successful aerospace industry to some degree (Japan being the most advanced perhaps). 3 countries being among the top 6 aviation markets in the world in terms of demand for airplanes.

China has significant infuence over Africa, Latin America and other countries like Pakistan...all of whom are potential customers for a Chinese built aircraft in exchange for the "influence" wielded by China. Granted that these are 3rd world countries...but still..an order is an order.

The ME3s will not risk pissing off US or EU since a whopping majority chunk of the transfer traffic is headed from/to these countries. So; how many orders will they give is a big multi mullion $ question.

2) How Russia & China continue align with each other. Right now they are aligning with each other on multiple fronts and seem to be forging an alliance to counter western (read US) dominance.

3) How the 2 play A & B (and their respective govts) against each other OR whether A & B (and the respective govts.) align with each other to fend off this common (& potential) future threat.


Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?
 
User avatar
spinotter
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:47 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:
747megatop wrote:
I think that is an oversimplified way of putting it. Airline purchases have been and will always be a factor in the massive & complex geo-political landscape. Massive trade surplus is just one factor. It remains to be seen -->

1) How geo-politics play out between the major powers & economies.

For example; India; a major & potentially fast growing aviation market next only to China is a MAJOR anti-china power who i very much doubt will be buying any Chinese made aircraft. Ditto with Japan. Those 2 markets can pretty much be ruled out as customers for Chinese aircraft barring a miracle and are guaranteed to be A or B customers.

Speaking of geo-politics; China IS the reason why India and Japan are not part of the consortium building this aircraft...China would rather steam roll these countries with it's military and the only thing stopping that is US. This is a good thing for A & B which otherwise would have had to contend with competition from a consortium comprising Russia+China+Japan+India all four of which have a successful aerospace industry to some degree (Japan being the most advanced perhaps). 3 countries being among the top 6 aviation markets in the world in terms of demand for airplanes.

China has significant infuence over Africa, Latin America and other countries like Pakistan...all of whom are potential customers for a Chinese built aircraft in exchange for the "influence" wielded by China. Granted that these are 3rd world countries...but still..an order is an order.

The ME3s will not risk pissing off US or EU since a whopping majority chunk of the transfer traffic is headed from/to these countries. So; how many orders will they give is a big multi mullion $ question.

2) How Russia & China continue align with each other. Right now they are aligning with each other on multiple fronts and seem to be forging an alliance to counter western (read US) dominance.

3) How the 2 play A & B (and their respective govts) against each other OR whether A & B (and the respective govts.) align with each other to fend off this common (& potential) future threat.


Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.
 
ewt340
Posts: 251
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:53 pm

spinotter wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


Isn't it great, the people who got invaded now became the invaders themself. Beautiful way of human nature.
  • 1
  • 7
  • 8
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos