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neutrino
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:53 am

DL757NYC wrote:
If they do a copy of a 757 they will get orders through the roof. Put me in charge.

Through the roof and then back down to earth with a nasty bump. Have a nice time in charge. :smile:
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JustSomeDood
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:23 am

Jokes aside, the best chance that I see the C929 succeeding with places other than China is making it a 757-sized and capable frame, instead of trying to compete against the 787/A350/A330.
 
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CARST
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:48 am

That whole project is deemed to fail. No chance of that seeing more than 100 orders from Russian and Chinese airlines which are forced to buy the jet......
 
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neutrino
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:01 am

What crystal ball did you use? I like to order a few. On second thoughts........
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KarelXWB
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:08 am

CARST wrote:
That whole project is deemed to fail. No chance of that seeing more than 100 orders from Russian and Chinese airlines which are forced to buy the jet......


Considering the fact that Russian and Chinese carriers operate hundreds of widebody aircraft, the CR929 has lots of potential.
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scbriml
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:28 am

DL757NYC wrote:
If they do a copy of a 757 they will get orders through the roof. Put me in charge.


It's not the 1980s anymore. :rotfl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0MK7qz13bU
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Amiga500
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu Jan 04, 2018 12:38 pm

DL757NYC wrote:
If they do a copy of a 757 they will get orders through the roof. Put me in charge.


The Russians already have a better version.... the MC-21.

The -400 (still on drawing board) is supposed to take over 250 passengers.

But, they need to up MTOW, fuel volume and probably engine thrust to really match 757 range.
 
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Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Jan 15, 2018 8:22 pm

Per Leeham-

https://leehamnews.com/2018/01/15/chine ... more-25997

China and Russia are teaming up for building a WB. See why Airbus CEO is walking back talk of moving A380 assembling to China.

This news are probably setting off alarms in Chicago and Toulouse. This new WB may or may not be a threat on the world wide market versus A & B. What it does is take a chunk of A & B's WB sales in China.
 
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Matt6461
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:59 pm

Interesting. Any more hard figures on the C929's configuration? IIRC its fuselage diameter is ~A350.

With 280 pax, 6500nm range, this looks like an A330 replacement and 787-10 competitor. Probably a smart market niche, covers most widebody routes thoug with cargo weight limitations. Belly yields will continue to decline long term, IMJ, so not a huge issue.

Both A&B should be worried about this plane but Boeing is more threatened here than Airbus as this is more of a threat to 787, especially -10, than to A350.
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:11 pm

Wiki has more info, basically designed in Russia & produced in China, profits half half.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAIC_CR929
Not sure A&B should be that worried at this point given that most legacies airlines will stick to both for a long while, but then we all know how Airbus surreptitiously ate into B & MDD turf...
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:49 pm

DWC wrote:
Wiki has more info, basically designed in Russia & produced in China, profits half half.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRAIC_CR929
Not sure A&B should be that worried at this point given that most legacies airlines will stick to both for a long while, but then we all know how Airbus surreptitiously ate into B & MDD turf...


The legacies are not the issue, the growing Asian market is the problem. China is a big chunk of that growing Asian area. Are we naive to believe there will not be some pressure for the China airlines to buy this WB instead of A & B? Again, A & B may not fear this project but there are keeping a careful eye on this development.

On the flip side, many here have decried the duopoly that now exists. May not be that much longer for the WB sector.
 
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DWC
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:55 pm

william wrote:
The legacies are not the issue, the growing Asian market is the problem. China is a big chunk of that growing Asian area. Are we naive to believe there will not be some pressure for the China airlines to buy this WB instead of A & B? Again, A & B may not fear this project but there are keeping a careful eye on this development.

On the flip side, many here have decried the duopoly that now exists. May not be that much longer for the WB sector.

Yes, I am fully aware of that.
But as the market is also growing ( doubles every 15 years ), there is room for the CR929 to seize a nice % of the market without actually eating into A&B current production rates.
That said, it is only "normal" that China & Russia ( considering its past ) have a WB of their own. It will sell well in China for sure, Russia to a much lesser extent ( country is nearly 10 times smaller population wise ) and I have yet to see a major EU or US airline operating a Russian conceived WB, let alone one made in China ( yet all fly 777s & 787s made 20% & 35% by Japan )
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:32 pm

Interesting - although the only place I really see it flying is China and a few surronding countries. I'm trying to decide if it's a 787 or an A350? Probably more A350.

While it's not a disaster issue for A/B as I don't think we'll see these eat the western market share for them, it will certainly eat sales in china, which is where the future growth is.
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:00 am

i’m getting some very 787-ish vibes
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:09 am

william wrote:
China and Russia are teaming up for building a WB. See why Airbus CEO is walking back talk of moving A380 assembling to China.


There was never talk of moving A380 assembly to China. Given how the A380 is assembled in TLS, it would be totally impractical to 'move' it to China. At best, China would have an A380 completion facility just like they're getting A330 and 737 completion facilities.

william wrote:
This news are probably setting off alarms in Chicago and Toulouse.


I doubt it, it's been known about for a while now. Wake me up when they've sold 500.

william wrote:
China is a big chunk of that growing Asian area. Are we naive to believe there will not be some pressure for the China airlines to buy this WB instead of A & B?


First, it has to be a competitive plane. There's a very long road to travel from where they are today to a certified plane. Also China has to continue to buy Airbus and Boeing planes as a means of offsetting their massive trade surplus with Europe and the US.
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:11 am

http://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/ar ... ed-engines

This article says that the Russians and Chinese plan to provide their own engines, not relying on GE, RR or P&W. Of course the article is from August 2017 so it may be old news and circumstances have evolved.
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:59 am

Prost wrote:
http://www.scmp.com/tech/enterprises/article/2109214/sino-russian-widebody-jet-use-self-developed-engines

This article says that the Russians and Chinese plan to provide their own engines, not relying on GE, RR or P&W. Of course the article is from August 2017 so it may be old news and circumstances have evolved.


Initially the plane will fly with a Western engine. Russia and China issued a RFP in December 2017. Later on a self-developed engine will power the aircraft.

See https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 29-444461/

The partnership has previously indicated that the aircraft is expected to be initially powered by an engine from one of the major Western manufacturers, such as Rolls-Royce or General Electric, with an indigenous powerplant to be developed later.
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747megatop
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:40 pm

scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
Also China has to continue to buy Airbus and Boeing planes as a means of offsetting their massive trade surplus with Europe and the US.

I think that is an oversimplified way of putting it. Airline purchases have been and will always be a factor in the massive & complex geo-political landscape. Massive trade surplus is just one factor. It remains to be seen -->

1) How geo-politics play out between the major powers & economies.

For example; India; a major & potentially fast growing aviation market next only to China is a MAJOR anti-china power who i very much doubt will be buying any Chinese made aircraft. Ditto with Japan. Those 2 markets can pretty much be ruled out as customers for Chinese aircraft barring a miracle and are guaranteed to be A or B customers.

Speaking of geo-politics; China IS the reason why India and Japan are not part of the consortium building this aircraft...China would rather steam roll these countries with it's military and the only thing stopping that is US. This is a good thing for A & B which otherwise would have had to contend with competition from a consortium comprising Russia+China+Japan+India all four of which have a successful aerospace industry to some degree (Japan being the most advanced perhaps). 3 countries being among the top 6 aviation markets in the world in terms of demand for airplanes.

China has significant infuence over Africa, Latin America and other countries like Pakistan...all of whom are potential customers for a Chinese built aircraft in exchange for the "influence" wielded by China. Granted that these are 3rd world countries...but still..an order is an order.

The ME3s will not risk pissing off US or EU since a whopping majority chunk of the transfer traffic is headed from/to these countries. So; how many orders will they give is a big multi mullion $ question.

2) How Russia & China continue align with each other. Right now they are aligning with each other on multiple fronts and seem to be forging an alliance to counter western (read US) dominance.

3) How the 2 play A & B (and their respective govts) against each other OR whether A & B (and the respective govts.) align with each other to fend off this common (& potential) future threat.
 
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:10 am

China has been aggressively building up its finance industry. Aircraft purchases in many 3rd world countries in Africa & Asia are being backed by Chinese companies at very very competetive rates. Even Air India recently picked up a dozen odd A320NEO's through a Chinese company.

When the Chinese built aircraft are ready, they will find it easier to flog them to their existing customer base.
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Wayfarer515
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:27 am

747megatop wrote:
scbriml wrote:
william wrote:
Also China has to continue to buy Airbus and Boeing planes as a means of offsetting their massive trade surplus with Europe and the US.

I think that is an oversimplified way of putting it. Airline purchases have been and will always be a factor in the massive & complex geo-political landscape. Massive trade surplus is just one factor. It remains to be seen -->

1) How geo-politics play out between the major powers & economies.

For example; India; a major & potentially fast growing aviation market next only to China is a MAJOR anti-china power who i very much doubt will be buying any Chinese made aircraft. Ditto with Japan. Those 2 markets can pretty much be ruled out as customers for Chinese aircraft barring a miracle and are guaranteed to be A or B customers.

Speaking of geo-politics; China IS the reason why India and Japan are not part of the consortium building this aircraft...China would rather steam roll these countries with it's military and the only thing stopping that is US. This is a good thing for A & B which otherwise would have had to contend with competition from a consortium comprising Russia+China+Japan+India all four of which have a successful aerospace industry to some degree (Japan being the most advanced perhaps). 3 countries being among the top 6 aviation markets in the world in terms of demand for airplanes.

China has significant infuence over Africa, Latin America and other countries like Pakistan...all of whom are potential customers for a Chinese built aircraft in exchange for the "influence" wielded by China. Granted that these are 3rd world countries...but still..an order is an order.

The ME3s will not risk pissing off US or EU since a whopping majority chunk of the transfer traffic is headed from/to these countries. So; how many orders will they give is a big multi mullion $ question.

2) How Russia & China continue align with each other. Right now they are aligning with each other on multiple fronts and seem to be forging an alliance to counter western (read US) dominance.

3) How the 2 play A & B (and their respective govts) against each other OR whether A & B (and the respective govts.) align with each other to fend off this common (& potential) future threat.


Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:07 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
747megatop wrote:
scbriml wrote:

I think that is an oversimplified way of putting it. Airline purchases have been and will always be a factor in the massive & complex geo-political landscape. Massive trade surplus is just one factor. It remains to be seen -->
1) How geo-politics play out between the major powers & economies.
For example; India; a major & potentially fast growing aviation market next only to China is a MAJOR anti-china power who i very much doubt will be buying any Chinese made aircraft. Ditto with Japan. Those 2 markets can pretty much be ruled out as customers for Chinese aircraft barring a miracle and are guaranteed to be A or B customers.
Speaking of geo-politics; China IS the reason why India and Japan are not part of the consortium building this aircraft...China would rather steam roll these countries with it's military and the only thing stopping that is US. This is a good thing for A & B which otherwise would have had to contend with competition from a consortium comprising Russia+China+Japan+India all four of which have a successful aerospace industry to some degree (Japan being the most advanced perhaps). 3 countries being among the top 6 aviation markets in the world in terms of demand for airplanes.
China has significant infuence over Africa, Latin America and other countries like Pakistan...all of whom are potential customers for a Chinese built aircraft in exchange for the "influence" wielded by China. Granted that these are 3rd world countries...but still..an order is an order.
The ME3s will not risk pissing off US or EU since a whopping majority chunk of the transfer traffic is headed from/to these countries. So; how many orders will they give is a big multi mullion $ question.
2) How Russia & China continue align with each other. Right now they are aligning with each other on multiple fronts and seem to be forging an alliance to counter western (read US) dominance.
3) How the 2 play A & B (and their respective govts) against each other OR whether A & B (and the respective govts.) align with each other to fend off this common (& potential) future threat.

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


1) Tibet
2) Numerous islands - outside their own territory - in the South China Sea
3) Threats to invade Taiwan

Of course, aren't you the same person who claims that Russia did not invade/has not invaded Ukraine and the Crimea... so you might not recognize international encroachment on other countries' sovereign territory anyway...
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:36 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.

He's not kidding. Only presenting "alternative facts".
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747megatop
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:47 pm

Wayfarer515 wrote:
747megatop wrote:
scbriml wrote:

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.

I don't know what warranted this question (honestly; so please clarify why you asked this question). But, i would suggest you get your facts straight. 1962 - China attacked India. The last time i checked India was a sovereign country in 1962 and it still is.
Now; that's not to say other countries didn't attack other countries; each one of the 5 permanent security council members are guilty of it including Germany & Japan; in history.
Anyways let's get back to the topic of discussion.
Last edited by 747megatop on Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Tue Jan 23, 2018 7:51 pm

neutrino wrote:
He's not kidding. Only presenting "alternative facts".

Thanks. Yes; precisely that is what i was trying to do. More specifically i was trying to draw attention of my friends to the complex geopolitical landscape that is playing out; all of which are facts.
 
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:38 am

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... dy-445047/

"Contract documents reveal plans for Russia's new widebody engine"

The $1.13 billion (₽64.3 billion) contract awarded by the Russian government on 19 January calls on United Engine-Aviadvigatel to develop a demonstrator engine named the PD-35-1 by 2023 featuring several state-of-the-art technologies, including wide-chord composite fan blades and composite fan case, ceramic matrix composites and advanced cooling systems.

The PD-35-1 also would be used to power several Russian air force development projects, including the Il-476 airlifter, Il-478 tanker and a long-term effort to replace the Antonov An-124.
 
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Tue Jan 30, 2018 7:01 pm

The CR929 venture is already testing manufacturing tooling and has produced the first full scale composite fuselage test panel.

Image

Image

https://twitter.com/COMACAmerica/status ... 9833334785
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu May 24, 2018 3:35 pm

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Thu May 24, 2018 4:48 pm

Arion640 wrote:
Interesting - although the only place I really see it flying is China and a few surronding countries. I'm trying to decide if it's a 787 or an A350? Probably more A350.

While it's not a disaster issue for A/B as I don't think we'll see these eat the western market share for them, it will certainly eat sales in china, which is where the future growth is.


I could see a lot of African countries who are under Chinese influence also taking them on.

When China builds a railway they also sell supply the rolling stock, when they build a port they supply ship to shore cranes and container handling equipment.

With all that Chinese influence and money floating around convincing a national airline to by this plane will be pretty easy, after you’ve built the country a port, railroad and probably a couple of airports.
 
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu May 24, 2018 5:46 pm

Something that perplexes me about China is how can they mass produce products that parts aren't really interchangeable. In the 1800's the gun manufactures got their tolerances tight enough that spare parts would fit a 20 year old gun. Many Chinese products have a wide variance in tolerances so parts from 1 line do not match parts from the 2nd line. We are used to buy parts for our Fiat that fit exactly. In particular with Aviation the QA process for quality and dimensions require very tight conformance.

A big reason that Boeing did the 787, and planning the MOM and NSA are the best way to fight competition from China (and others) is to have excellent quality along with modern designs. Far easier to replicate a 330 than a 787, in particular the new models of engines are tough for the manufactures, so beyond doable by the copycatters.
 
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu May 24, 2018 7:27 pm

keesje wrote:

I smell a 787 knock-off but in stead of the slightly angled top of the tail, it will be perfectly flat. With China's aviation EIS track record we'll see if it will take longer or shorter than the 787.
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu May 24, 2018 7:47 pm

Let's get the Comac C919 and the Irkut MC-21into service first. These aircraft make test flights about once a week at best. At this rate -- I have doubts either of them will ever be more than another ARJ-21 which has what? -- 10 aircraft in service after fifteen years of development and first flight in 2008 -- and it was a DC-9 copy.

Don't plan on ever being a passenger on a C929 if you are more than 60 years old, even if you live in China or Russia...but maybe your grand-kids.
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lightsaber
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Thu May 24, 2018 7:59 pm

QuarkFly wrote:
Let's get the Comac C919 and the Irkut MC-21into service first. These aircraft make test flights about once a week at best. At this rate -- I have doubts either of them will ever be more than another ARJ-21 which has what? -- 10 aircraft in service after fifteen years of development and first flight in 2008 -- and it was a DC-9 copy.

Don't plan on ever being a passenger on a C929 if you are more than 60 years old, even if you live in China or Russia...but maybe your grand-kids.

I share skepticism, but not on the MC-21. That one will fly. The Chinese have a broken process where early milestones that are supposed to catch and fix subsystem issues.. don't. I don't know why, but I speculate it is too much a command and control structure. Many Soviet aircraft suffered from issues as engineers couldn't use there brains and fix issues.

Shorts Brothers was hired to oversee the MC-22 and they have done their job.

But a CR929 before the design is obsolete? Not with the current structure.

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VUVINH11
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:35 am

in my opinion, more competition more benifit for us. Russia and China have a right to develop their plane if they have ability. Boeing, airbus begin from difficult, now russia, china face the same as Boeing and Airbus faced before. they want to buy liner, they shall be do the best, if not, they lose, hope the best aircraft will serve our life. ^^
 
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dik909
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Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:04 am

What are your thoughts on this ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-airshow-comac/china-russia-unveil-life-size-model-of-planned-widebody-jet-at-zhuhai-airshow-idUSKCN1NB0CL

Personally, I don't see it getting far off the ground, (no pun intended), at least in the west where 'Made In China' instantly implies low-quality junk/garbage. I mean, really, how comfortable would you feel stepping into a 'Made in China' airplane ?

Maybe it'll see more/better sales with Asian carriers where 'Made In China' doesn't carry with it such negative connotations ??

Of course, I could be completely wrong; just my own two cents.
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sibibom
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Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:08 am

Don't underestimate China, in 10 years they will probably be laughing at you....its just a matter of time before they will master and perfect plane making.
 
FatCat
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Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:13 am

it's no new news, Boeing will open an assembly line in China https://www.marketwatch.com/story/boein ... 2018-04-25
Airbus already does, https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/news/en ... anufa.html
and both buy parts for their planes made there, so with much probability, you've already stepped in an airplane made in china
also your $ 800 iPhone is made there, and 90% of the things you use everyday ...
low quality - garbage things can be made in other Countries as well, you'll remember certainly the failed audit and the severe consequences of the under-standard vertical fin (or stabilizers? can't remember well) for the 767s made in Italy...
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Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:14 am

I think it's pretty much inevitable that a third major airplane manufacturer will emerge from China. They have the money, the people, the ambition, the demand. The only question is when and how long it will take them to get to the same level as Airbus and Boeing. What part Russia will take in it remains to be seen, i can't imagine it will be a significant one, after all.
 
BrianWilkes
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Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:21 am

yes well Russian and China, a copy of a copy. Nothing original guys?
 
Miquel787
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Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:23 am

Did they cut off a nose section of a 787? Better call it Comac 787...Not very creative from the guys at Comac..

But the main thing is..Who.s gonna order it? Are they trying to beat A and B on price? Will they build an engine to compete with Rolls and GE..Or is it gonna be a Brabazon project? A huge risk I guess.
 
bunumuring
Posts: 2427
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 2:56 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:25 am

Ummmm,
The company established to build this plane is called 'CRAIC'?
Obviously the Irish must be involved too...
Cheers
Bunumuring
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
gregpodpl
Posts: 21
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:49 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:27 am

sibibom wrote:
Don't underestimate China, in 10 years they will probably be laughing at you....its just a matter of time before they will master and perfect plane making.


Maybe a little bit longer than 10 years. We still didn't get to the point where Chinese cars (not counting Chinese owned - western companies) are available in the western world. So it's more like 30 years.
 
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dik909
Posts: 91
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 6:56 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:28 am

All fair points, indeed.

Since I'm not a pilot, but rather am just a flying aficionado, I was approaching the issue more from the perspective of a passenger.

As a passenger, when selecting a flight, if faced with an option of a Boeing/Airbus versus a 'Made in China' airplane, I would actively avoid the Chinese aircraft, even if it meant paying a little more.
The atheistic claim to "reason" is more a matter of public relations than competence in reasoned debate.
 
Peterwk146
Posts: 58
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:22 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:31 am

Lilienthal wrote:
I think it's pretty much inevitable that a third major airplane manufacturer will emerge from China. They have the money, the people, the ambition, the demand. The only question is when and how long it will take them to get to the same level as Airbus and Boeing. What part Russia will take in it remains to be seen, i can't imagine it will be a significant one, after all.

I would agree with you.
Don't underestimate the challenge to Airbus and Boeing in the future. It reminds me of how many laughed at Airbus when they started and if you look how Embraer started with (EMB-110) and what they do now, I believe the same will be for China and Russia. I also think that Russia will take a major part of the project.
Both countries want to succeed and I think that they will. They have many building blocks in place already with their current civil projects and they know their weaknesses, particularly in supporting the product in-service.
 
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PHBVF
Posts: 168
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 6:45 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:46 am

Miquel787 wrote:
Did they cut off a nose section of a 787? Better call it Comac 787...Not very creative from the guys at Comac..

But the main thing is..Who.s gonna order it? Are they trying to beat A and B on price? Will they build an engine to compete with Rolls and GE..Or is it gonna be a Brabazon project? A huge risk I guess.


I think Chinese, Russian and African airlines will be the main customers. Iran also might be a candidate.
For some reason I feel like this might find a place in one or two western airlines' fleet, but not going to be the main market.

As anything with China this project is a learning case for them. What they don't get right this round will be a lesson for the next model. And that is one to watch out for I would expect...
Licensed 777/787 driver
 
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Loran
Posts: 639
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 11:13 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:56 am

dik909 wrote:
All fair points, indeed.

Since I'm not a pilot, but rather am just a flying aficionado, I was approaching the issue more from the perspective of a passenger.

As a passenger, when selecting a flight, if faced with an option of a Boeing/Airbus versus a 'Made in China' airplane, I would actively avoid the Chinese aircraft, even if it meant paying a little more.

I have flown on the ARJ-21, and it is from a passenger perspective nothing worse than a regular Airbus/Boeing/Embraer product. In fact I was postively surprised of the build-quality. Here's a video I recorded: https://youtu.be/0jnnE79RGt4

The average passeneger wouldn't even realize he stepped into a chinese-built plane. Knowing it is a legacy airframe of the MD-80 production line in China, with CF34 engines.

I agree with the others that it is a matter of time until China will catch up on commercial airliners. They probably won't reach comparable Airbus/Boeing standards anytime soon, but they may be successful in establishing a low-cost alternative to western products (such as the SSJ to the ERJs, etc.).

Regards,
Loran
703 717 727 732-9 747 757 767 777 787 AB2/6 310 318-321 330 340 359 380 D8M D91/3/5 D1C M11 M81-90 L10 IL1/8/6/7/W/9/4 TU3/5/2 YK4/2
 
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Nomadd
Posts: 133
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:58 am

The article describes it as a single aisle 9 abreast aircraft.
 
RalXWB
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 9:36 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:01 pm

People laughing about China are quite narrow-minded. Look at the environmental sector for example, China is already a leader there. Underestimating China is a mistake...a bigly one.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 2915
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:02 pm

Interesting...when Boeing ships a part to China it often get held up in "Customs" for weeks or more while it gets reversed engineered. Have to assume this is acceptable or they would no be building facilities in he PRC.
 
Noshow
Posts: 622
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:20 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:03 pm

Wouldn't it be more promising to just build a proven, ready developed western design in China at local low wages first? Then increase the rate and bring their industry up to standards? Just one big project like one bomber, doesn't cut it. They need suppliers, services, global marketing and such. And high rates.

One day China will do it and they can order their airlines to buy chinese first.
 
Miquel787
Posts: 33
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:11 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:13 pm

PHBVF wrote:
Miquel787 wrote:
Did they cut off a nose section of a 787? Better call it Comac 787...Not very creative from the guys at Comac..

But the main thing is..Who.s gonna order it? Are they trying to beat A and B on price? Will they build an engine to compete with Rolls and GE..Or is it gonna be a Brabazon project? A huge risk I guess.


I think Chinese, Russian and African airlines will be the main customers. Iran also might be a candidate.
For some reason I feel like this might find a place in one or two western airlines' fleet, but not going to be the main market.

As anything with China this project is a learning case for them. What they don't get right this round will be a lesson for the next model. And that is one to watch out for I would expect...



I think you got a point here..Don.t underestimate the Chinese..They are very capable.But to develop and build an airliner is so complex and the investment of billions of dollars. Do they have a launch cusomer? Rather important to start such a huge project.. Joe Sutter said it right.." If you develop an airplane, you do it right otherwise you can throw billions of dollars out of the window"..

Competition is not bad at all but competing against the 787 and A350? I just don.t know..They have to sell a lot of 929.s to break even..Boeing is taking time with the 797..they wanna build the right plane for the customers.

It seems to me that the Chinese and Russians are throwing this airliner on the market without even knowing it has potential.But maybe i.m so wrong with my opinion.

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