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LAXDESI
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Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 6:49 pm

Interesting times ahead if this venture takes off.
https://www.rt.com/business/344830-russia-china-joint-plane/

Selected Quotes:
Moscow and Beijing are to sign a deal to produce a new wide-body passenger aircraft by end of June, reports Life News citing Russian ministerial sources.

The long-haul plane will be developed in Russia and assembled in China. A special engineering center will be created in Russia to undertake technical and electronics production. The plane’s engines will be produced by Rolls Royce and GE. The production of the fuselage and the assembly of the airplanes will take place in China.

The 250-280 seat planes will have a range of 12,000 kilometers(about 6500 nm). The first aircraft are expected to be completed by 2023 and to go on sale in 2025.

The new deal will become a platform for a joint venture between Russia’s United Aircraft Corporation and Commercial Aircraft Corporation of China, known as Comac.
 
LTenEleven
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 7:05 pm

Let’s see the pedigree.

Russia:

Developed an SSJ that is barely selling at home, and otherwise to questionable carriers bleeding money. VLM is in bankruptcy protection, and Cityjet are taking delivery of planes they don’t know what to do with. Interjet may be the only exception.

Is developing an MS21 has overweight, behind schedule and not gaining meaningful orders outside of its home market.

China:

Took 13 years to develop and just about hit the market 8 years behind schedule. It’s not selling at all and those that have been delivered to Chengdu Airlines are sitting on the ground instead of flying.

Is developing a C919 that is significantly behind schedule, overweight and gaining very limited orders outside China.

These two want to come together and build a widebody. I doubt the guys and girls in Toulouse and Chicago are losing much sleep.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 7:30 pm

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
Developed an SSJ that is barely selling at home, and otherwise to questionable carriers bleeding money. VLM is in bankruptcy protection, and Cityjet are taking delivery of planes they don’t know what to do with. Interjet may be the only exception.
SSJ program may enable the new joint venture to develop an aircraft that could turn out to be a better value than the competition at least for the Chinese and Russian markets.

For some reason my link to the airwaysnews article is not getting posted.



[Edited 2016-05-30 12:33:32]


[Edited 2016-05-30 12:36:15]
 
Burkhard
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 7:51 pm

Hm, both state run economies can burn a lot of money on this experiment, a least half of it ending in the giant corruption ruling both countries today.

From specifications, this could become an alternative to a 15 years old used A330.
 
LAXDESI
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 3):
From specifications, this could become an alternative to a 15 years old used A330.

I am more optimistic than that. This new venture could turn out to be as successful as the SSJ 100 program, and that may be enough to get orders from the Russian and Chinese airlines if it is substantially cheaper than B787/A350.

Based on the sketchy details from the linked article in OP, the proposed aircraft has a seat range of 250-280 seats, which spans the 788(242 seat 2 class) and 789(290 seat 2 class). Without more details, it is not clear if it is closer to 788 or 789 in capacity.

It(6500 nm range) does seem to have at least 1000 nm lower range than the 789(7635nm range). At 5500 nm range, it can covers all of Europe, Asia , and Australia from PEK. Perhaps it is designed to be lighter than the 789 with lower fuel burn, thus giving it far better operating economics.
 
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 8:22 pm

Russia can develop good aircraft. I like everything I've seen about the MC-21 except the weight. I also have not seen the airframe maintenance plan.

Old school maintenance plans stand no chance vs. the NEO, MAX or C-series.

The question is, will there be a 2nd (Russian) line?
The SSJ have aspects that impress (until the MRJ or E2 jets deliver on promise).

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
and those that have been delivered to Chengdu Airlines are sitting on the ground instead of flying.

The failure of the ARJ-21 amazes me. I guess after the prior turboprop I shouldn't be surprised. Absolutely no production discipline.

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
Is developing a C919 that is significantly behind schedule, overweight and gaining very limited orders outside China.

I'm starting to hear very ARJ-21 like notes of 'hit the milestones' engineering.


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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 8:27 pm

Sounds like a "Red MOM"
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alfa164
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 9:04 pm

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
Interjet may be the only exception.

The story in Mexican circles is that Interjet paid almost nothing for their planes, but agreed to be a "sales partner" and to try and help market it to other carriers.

Can anyone verify (or deny) that?
 
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
Developed an SSJ that is barely selling at home, and otherwise to questionable carriers bleeding money. VLM is in bankruptcy protection, and Cityjet are taking delivery of planes they don’t know what to do with. Interjet may be the only exception.

That is a very dour assessment. Keep in mind that this is the first remotely successful Russian commercial aircraft program since when? The 1980s?

It's unrealistic to expect instant market penetration and sales comparable to a Western aircraft.


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ptrjong
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 9:22 pm

Il-96 jigs moving to China, perhaps?
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Ty134A
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Mon May 30, 2016 10:10 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 8):

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
Developed an SSJ that is barely selling at home, and otherwise to questionable carriers bleeding money. VLM is in bankruptcy protection, and Cityjet are taking delivery of planes they don’t know what to do with. Interjet may be the only exception.

That is a very dour assessment. Keep in mind that this is the first remotely successful Russian commercial aircraft program since when? The 1980s?

It's unrealistic to expect instant market penetration and sales comparable to a Western aircraft.

the ssj is the first russian aircraft that isn't "russian". it abandons old soviet mentality in aircraft design and incorporates "ryanair capitalism" into it, making it a really competitive aircraft. but it takes time to start from zero. the ssj is a far bigger and greater success as recognized in the "west". compared to the e-jets (not e2) it is a few generations ahead. we will need to see how the e2 will perform. the tu-204 is a modernized, digitalized tu-154, the il-96 carries a lot of il-86 dna in it, with digitalization. so the ssj is in reality not even a resurrection, but a start from zero. and russia managed the challenge in a way better manner than china, with a much harder journey from the very much based on the b707 Y-10, the shared elements of the DC-9 in the ARJ-21 to the c919.

some guys posted that the MC-21 is overweight -> where is that info from. the latest news i have is, that the first frames are being prepared for final assembly. any info is appreciated!!!

but penetrating the duopoly will be difficult. in the end it would make sense for the two countries to bundle their efforts, and maybe work together with airbus (or boeing), since there is a lot to learn from each other...
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incitatus
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 12:42 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
This new venture could turn out to be as successful as the SSJ 100 program, and that may be enough to get orders from the Russian and Chinese airlines if it is substantially cheaper than B787/A350.

Just dispatch reliability might be enough to offset that acquisition cost difference.
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Francoflier
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 12:59 am

Here is a thread about that project from over a year ago.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...general_aviation/read.main/6312343

It seems it's moving along, at least on paper.
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Motorhussy
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 1:54 am

I'd see the best potential for this plane if they optimised the capacity at a 9-abreast 788 size with a smaller variant at 763 size. Pitch it where there is no competition.

Interesting to read in the article that they're basing it around the Il-96, an airliner with a fuselage width marginally larger than the A350. Looks like it will be a direct competitor to established products in an already saturated market place.

[Edited 2016-05-30 19:28:29]
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ThReaTeN
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 2:06 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
I'm starting to hear very ARJ-21 like notes of 'hit the milestones' engineering.

What does that mean?
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 2:24 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
I'm starting to hear very ARJ-21 like notes of 'hit the milestones' engineering.

Indeed.

That project seemed to be sailing ahead full chat not too long ago with the rollout. It has gone awfully quiet since.
Given the way the Chinese communicate on these matters, I don't really know what that means.
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LAXDESI
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 3:06 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 13):
I'd see the best potential for this plane if they optimised the capacity at a 9-abreast 788 size with a smaller variant at 763 size. Pitch it where there is no competition.

Interesting to read in the article that they're basing it around the Il-96, an airliner with a fuselage width marginally larger than the A350.

The Il-96-300 is about 182 feet long, whereas the B788 is about 186 feet long. The wingspan is identical for both.
ll-96-300 is also 5000 lb heavier than B788, but should lose weight when it goes to two engines from the current four.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 3:13 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 16):
The Il-96-300 is about 182 feet long, whereas the B788 is about 186 feet long. The wingspan is identical for both.
ll-96-300 is also 5000 lb heavier than B788, but should lose weight when it goes to two engines from the current four.

Yep, appreciate that thanks. Guess what I'm getting at is that the Il-96 was optimised around what the Russian built engines could haul into the air. The proposed P&W powered version, the Il-98M, was going to be considerably longer and heavier - which is what I'm assuming they'll be aiming at with this new build.

But, it's still not looking to be a new CFRP or new material/technology fuselage.
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LAXDESI
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 17):
Yep, appreciate that thanks. Guess what I'm getting at is that the Il-96 was optimised around what the Russian built engines could haul into the air. The proposed P&W powered version, the Il-98M, was going to be considerably longer and heavier - which is what I'm assuming they'll be aiming at with this new build.

The ll-96M is about 6 feet longer than B789, and about 15,000 lb heavier. If it is optimised around ll-96M, then its seating capacity will be closer to 300 seats(2 class), and not the 250-280 suggested in the OP.
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 3:41 am

I do think that as Russia and China pull together to create an Airbus like structure they may well gain some success over time.

Each has their own strengths and may well be able to develop a solid base over time, which is also supported by having a fair bit of power over decision making at the airlines in each of their respective countries  

I wouldn't laugh this off just yet.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 4:09 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 18):
The ll-96M is about 6 feet longer than B789, and about 15,000 lb heavier. If it is optimised around ll-96M, then its seating capacity will be closer to 300 seats(2 class), and not the 250-280 suggested in the OP.

Agreed. I think it's the wrong fuselage diameter to try and optimise at that length for that amount of passengers; an 8-abreast in Y capacity would be better. If they're going to do a CFRP fuselage they're going to have to start from scratch, and if they don't, who's going to buy it when there are A330's, 787's and A350's on offer?
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neutrino
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 6:51 am

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 2):
For some reason my link to the airwaysnews article is not getting posted.

Just omit the "s" in "https".
Here:
http://www.rt.com/business/344830-russia-china-joint-plane/
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r2rho
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 8:07 am

Lots of "paper" talk about this project in the past years, but I'd like to see something concrete going forward first. I believe in Russia's ability to develop a capable aircraft, but not China's I'm afraid. The ARJ fiasco is just too large to ignore. If China's involvement is in components manufacturing and providing financing, with Russia doing all development engineering and aircraft integration, it can work. Final assembly in China... might be the price to pay, but could work with sufficient quality control.
As for the aircraft itself, the market segment (6500nm, 250-280 seats) seems the right way to go, offering something different to A&B's 8000nm planes that not every airline needs. The lower range will enable a lighter design.
 
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 8:53 am

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
I doubt the guys and girls in Toulouse and Chicago are losing much sleep.

Yet Airbus sees China as a potential threat over 20 years or so. So the ARJ-21, C919 and this widebody jet may be a failure, the next generation jets from China may be better as they have learned from their failures.
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Ty134A
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 9:40 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):
Yet Airbus sees China as a potential threat over 20 years or so. So the ARJ-21, C919 and this widebody jet may be a failure, the next generation jets from China may be better as they have learned from their failures.

we oversee that the state backing of russian and chinese airliners is way less than the one of EU/USA. plus these airliners will most definitely get bad press in advance, maybe not even deserving it. so i also doubt that the planes will be successful on an economic basis, but for both countries i wish that the aeronautical side will show advantages over the "western" competitors.

but the potential at least in russia is enormous, the technical abilities of this nation are great and only need to be managed the right way. if one hears real experts talking on the SSJ, one understands the great achievements of this airliner, and why the e-jets in comparison look like, oh well, e-jets.

what i would hope for is a 260 seat single aisle airliner just like the b757-300, but with the ability to take containers and with some other incorporations making the airliner more flexible. a modern airliner of this kind would make a 788 obsolete on flights up to 8 hours. just imagine a DC-8-63 style twin with a fuel burn of about 3to and a capacity of about 270 pax!?!?!?
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TheSonntag
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 9:49 am

Quoting Ty134A (Reply 24):
only need to be managed the right way

And this is the biggest issue I see. On the other Hand, Airbus was a political Project from the very beginning, as well, however it was managed well.

I think we should not be arrogant. We know the russians can build planes. So I think we will see what will come out of it.
 
hz747300
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 9:56 am

What about the powerplants? Should they develop the airframe, with modern western engines it will have some advantages surely.

I agree with one of the first respondents though, given the sales track record for existing aircraft, it does not seem likely that there will be much of a market outside the home countries and some of those may be forced orders for 'face'. I highly doubt that China or Russia can make a lighter, more nimble, plane than the A35X/78X series in their first go out of the gate, even if they tried to reverse engineer all the millions of parts.

I tried the reverse engineer argument on these boards before and was flamed, so I am going with the board on this one. This plane will likely not be launched and will struggle. It will take a few attempts at least before something major can happen.
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L0VE2FLY
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 10:14 am

This proposed bird is just like the SSJ, ARJ21 & C919, they're all dependent on Western-made parts including the engines, avionics, etc... The question is: When will the Russians & Chinese build a highly sophisticated, successful airliner with little to no reliance on the West?
 
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 10:27 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
The SSJ have aspects that impress (until the MRJ or E2 jets deliver on promise).

It's probably the quietest plane I have ever been on, bar none. I've had 2 flights on SSJ-100's so far and each time I've been amazed how quiet they are. I don't even need to use noise cancelling on my headphones on one.
 
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thekorean
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 10:28 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 25):

The problem is that the public as a whole doesn't know Russians can build planes.

They see all the incidences involving old, unmaintained Soviet planes crash and blame it on the manufacturers.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 10:29 am

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 27):
The question is: When will the Russians & Chinese build a highly sophisticated, successful airliner with little to no reliance on the West?

Unless the world reverts to a cold war situation, never. Global supply chains and business dictate this.


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pvjin
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 10:31 am

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
These two want to come together and build a widebody. I doubt the guys and girls in Toulouse and Chicago are losing much sleep.

I doubt the guys and girls at Boeing were losing their sleep either when Airbus introduced A300, and later A320. Skies might look very different in a couple of decades from now, just as they now look very different from what they were in the early 80's.
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ptrjong
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 10:38 am

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 20):
If they're going to do a CFRP fuselage they're going to have to start from scratch, and if they don't

They won't. If they even admit it's an Il-96 development, that very likely means it's not going to be much different at all.
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Grummancat
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 11:00 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 31):
I doubt the guys and girls at Boeing were losing their sleep either when Airbus introduced A300, and later A320

Aaaaaand of course when the A300 came along, Boeing was still competing with Lockheed and McDonell Douglas. Sure, Airbus became a thing, but it's hardly the first time Boeing ever had to deal with competition.

At the same time, it's very interesting that you bring up Airbus because I believe A and B leave little to no room for a successful competitor in their field. Putin might wish for a return to the old Tupolev/Ilyushin days of the Soviet era but wishes won't be enough...
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 11:49 am

The Il-96 is itself based on the 1970s Il-86, so you wonder how leading edge this new plane will be

Quoting pvjin (Reply 31):
Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
These two want to come together and build a widebody. I doubt the guys and girls in Toulouse and Chicago are losing much sleep.

I doubt the guys and girls at Boeing were losing their sleep either when Airbus introduced A300, and later A320. Skies might look very different in a couple of decades from now, just as they now look very different from what they were in the early 80's.

Airbus didn't invent the European airliner industry, indeed when the A300 was being developed it would have been MASSIVELY overshadowed by Concorde!
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TheSonntag
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 11:59 am

Quoting Grummancat (Reply 33):
it's very interesting that you bring up Airbus because I believe A and B leave little to no room for a successful competitor in their field.

But this could actually be a chance. Look at the A320neo/737Max designs: Both are ancient designs by now, the 737max is still carrying 1960s vintage in some fields, and the A320, while being advanced in the 1980s, still carries some 1980s Technology which is outdated today.
Both will need clean sheet designs in the future, but nobody wants to start first.

So if you build a plane from scratch with modern technology, on a brand new production line, with modern materials, electronics for maintenance and so on, I am not so sure this could not be a winner. Of course, being technologically able to do all this is not granted, and building a new engine from scratch which is better than a PW 1100 or CFM Leap seems doubtful to me.

Airbus did exactly that in the 1980s, when both the 737 and the MD80 were rather conservative, evolutionary developments from older frames.
 
aviatorcraig
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 12:04 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Thread starter):
The plane’s engines will be produced by Rolls Royce and GE

Do Rolls and GE know about this yet?  
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Motorhussy
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 12:29 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 35):
Look at the A320neo/737Max designs: Both are ancient designs by now,

And look at what Bombardier are doing with the C-Series.
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JerseyFlyer
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 12:31 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 31):
Skies might look very different in a couple of decades from now, just as they now look very different from what they were in the early 80's.

I remember a lot of people thinking the first Toyota exported to UK was a joke. A lot can change in 20 years.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 12:42 pm

The Russian and Chinese airlines are captive markets. Guess who be required to buy the aircraft.   
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lightsaber
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 1:58 pm

Quoting ThReaTeN (Reply 14):
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 5):
I'm starting to hear very ARJ-21 like notes of 'hit the milestones' engineering.

What does that mean?

It mean early milestones are met no matter how much work is pushed to a later time. Look at the ARJ-21, it had a first flight despite the amount of redesign required.

The C919 is heading down the same path where instead of halting assembly, production continues. This happened with the 787 and the delays of 'milestone engineering' cost Boeing Billions.

The ARJ-21 is an extreme example of this.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):
So the ARJ-21, C919 and this widebody jet may be a failure, the next generation jets from China may be better as they have learned from their failures.

Having a captive market prevents 'lessons learned.'. Oh, some lessons will be learned. But the ARJ-21 isn't yet teaching how to fold in western certified PIPs into a production line.

What penalties does COMAC pay if these airframes are less than promise? What bonuses for better?

Quoting aviatorcraig (Reply 36):
Do Rolls and GE know about this yet?

Good question. Oh, GE will sell. It is a matter of terms...

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 39):

The Russian and Chinese airlines are captive markets. Guess who be required to buy the aircraft.

A captive market means customers no matter the quality of the maintenance plan.

Lightsaber
You only have the first amendment with the 2nd. If you're not going to offend someone with what you say, you don't have the 1st.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 2:22 pm

Quoting LAXDESI (Reply 4):
It(6500 nm range) does seem to have at least 1000 nm lower range than the 789(7635nm range). At 5500 nm range, it can covers all of Europe, Asia , and Australia from PEK. Perhaps it is designed to be lighter than the 789 with lower fuel burn, thus giving it far better operating economics.

I think you would be amazed how little OEW will be saved by "tuning" a widebody for 6,500 nm versus 7,500 nm.
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Acheron
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting LTenEleven (Reply 1):
Is developing an MS21 has overweight, behind schedule

You mean, like almost every western jet in the past 16 years, outside of maybe the E-jet?
 
L0VE2FLY
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 7:16 pm

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 30):
Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 27):The question is: When will the Russians & Chinese build a highly sophisticated, successful airliner with little to no reliance on the West?

Unless the world reverts to a cold war situation, never. Global supply chains and business dictate this.


Dan

An extremely unlikely situation obviously, that means the new plane will always be dependent on Western technology, so even if Airbus & Boeing lose some sales their Western suppliers will make billions selling components to the new planemaker. It'll also be difficult to sell to countries under US and/or EU sanctions.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue May 31, 2016 7:42 pm

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 43):
An extremely unlikely situation obviously, that means the new plane will always be dependent on Western technology, so even if Airbus & Boeing lose some sales their Western suppliers will make billions selling components to the new planemaker.

We may as well just call it 'technology' now. The end supplier might be majority western owned, but the tech is almost certainly the result of global collaboration, in both design and manufacture.

Also I see this as a high risk project for any company to sink time and money into. It could very easily become a political football if/when the two powers have a spat, and the profits would only be forthcoming if the end result works and sells.


Dan  
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KarelXWB
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Re: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:25 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
JeremyB
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Re: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:34 am

KarelXWB wrote:


It looks like a 787-9 with the wings of the A350.
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:50 am

JeremyB wrote:
It looks like a 787-9 with the wings of the A350.

I was just thinking that it looked like some weird amalgamation of a 777 and 787 on the fuselage (more of a 777 nose and 787 body) with a total A350 ripoff wing. It's like what the Chinese have done with the J-20 and J-31 (especially the J-31) being obvious copies from the F-22, F-35, and Eurofighter in various aspects. It might be nice to see what they could come up with on their own :roll:
 
JeremyB
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Re: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:14 am

atcsundevil wrote:
JeremyB wrote:
It looks like a 787-9 with the wings of the A350.

I was just thinking that it looked like some weird amalgamation of a 777 and 787 on the fuselage (more of a 777 nose and 787 body) with a total A350 ripoff wing. It's like what the Chinese have done with the J-20 and J-31 (especially the J-31) being obvious copies from the F-22, F-35, and Eurofighter in various aspects. It might be nice to see what they could come up with on their own :roll:


Now you mention it the nose section does look a lot like the 777's. Well it's a good trio, the 777's nose, the 787's body and tail and the wings of the A350 :P
 
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atypical
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Re: Russia-China Proposed 250-280 Seat Aircraft

Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:51 pm

The problem here is that we have two manufacturers joining forces but neither has designed and built a modern aircraft in any quantity to even form a baseline assessment. Further there is no indication the weakest link can't break the whole model. For (a potential) example, a COMAC supplier going out of business with no alternative for replacing a vital part. Unfortunately or not most western customers are going to demand a lot more insight start to finish to make up for so many unknowns. A lot of airlines will not be able to justify to stockholders buying a large airliner from an entity basically producing its very first model. Even though the companies producing the aircraft are established it does not mean each will be using its strengths rather than weaknesses. I am not saying this will not work but to be successful they will need to provide transparency that Boeing and Airbus do not, at least until they have established themselves.
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