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WorldFlier
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:20 pm

spinotter wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


The people of Tibet and Xinjiang would disagree with your statement (but Mrs. World Flier would agree with you).

China returned the favor by "invading" "Inner Mongolia" - and have all but invaded the actual country of Mongolia but without firing a single shot.

Taiwan has decided it wants to be a free country, and they're an ally...so it would be an "invasion"

So, let me get this straight it's ok to invade if it was part of the empire? Asking for a Russian Comrade of mine, he would appreciate that view point...

But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.
 
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thekorean
Posts: 1716
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:07 am

BrianWilkes wrote:
yes well Russian and China, a copy of a copy. Nothing original guys?

There’s only so many ways to design a jet.
 
c933103
Posts: 2994
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:27 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Their high speed train system was compromised in an entire plethora of problems. But ..... They did it and it seems to be working well. And I suspect it is as complicated a system as any plane.

Except multiple high speed train manufacturers have agreed to technology transfer agreement that transferred knowledge of those high-speed train production to China. And such thing didn't happen for aircraft yet.
 
TheEuphorian
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:35 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:26 am


But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.

For the ASEAN states:
-Cambodia: Maybe
-Laos; I don't think QV will order widebodies, ever.
-Myanmar: probably
-Indonesia: No chance.
-Singapore: Never.
-Malaysia: Never.
-Philippines: Only if PR/5J is forced to do so.
-Thailand: Only if TG is forced to do so.
-Vietnam: I don't think VN would buy Chinese aircraft.
-Brunei Darussalam: No.
 
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pylon101
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:51 pm

For Russia, it is all about R&D and transportation security.
To re-start development and manufacturing of the whole line - from IL-114 turboprop to what is now called C929 - would be a huge achievement.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2279
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:09 pm

TheEuphorian wrote:

But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.

For the ASEAN states:
-Cambodia: Maybe
-Laos; I don't think QV will order widebodies, ever.
-Myanmar: probably
-Indonesia: No chance.
-Singapore: Never.
-Malaysia: Never.
-Philippines: Only if PR/5J is forced to do so.
-Thailand: Only if TG is forced to do so.
-Vietnam: I don't think VN would buy Chinese aircraft.
-Brunei Darussalam: No.


I don't think TG would, they don't have to. But maybe one of those disposable airlines in Thailand might, like Siam Airlines, or its replacements.
Keep on truckin'...
 
EBJ68
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2018 10:20 pm

Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:45 pm

The outcome of this project may ultimately amaze us all. It'll never happen? Remains to be seen. The possibilities are fascinating.
 
ExpatVet
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:35 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:57 pm

spinotter wrote:
Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


Pardon me for a bland question, but how exactly do you have an Empire without imperialistic adventures?
L101, 733/4/5/8, 741/2/3 (never managed 744!), MD 80/2/3/8/90, MD11, DHC8/3/Q4, E170, E195, 757, 77W, 763/4, Travel Air 2000. A300/310, A319/320/321, A333, probably a few others I forget. Passenger, not pilot, alas! BUD based.
 
Interflug74
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:53 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:22 pm

spinotter wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


To stay with the truth, China and Germany had tight connections eversince. Germany was THE partner for China in political and economically areas, until 1941 when the JAPANES joined the war.
Even the Hitlerjugend was active in China. After 1941, complained by both sides, connection was lost until the war ends. (after the war China startet the 3-years plan for building it´s industrie, laid together with germay) Joining the allies, China declared war on germany 09.12.1941. Not the other way round.

The only military intervention was putting down the boxer rebellion, and wich was to protect foreign people in China.
 
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Erebus
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:52 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.


If you needed any sort of indication of where this might sell, just follow the orderbooks of the current portfolio of Russian and Chinese products, in service and in development.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

Erebus wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.


If you needed any sort of indication of where this might sell, just follow the orderbooks of the current portfolio of Russian and Chinese products, in service and in development.


If Venezuela's economy wasn't down a toilet, they'd order some Sukhoi Superjets (they only have money for military equipment).

The Superjet has a backlog of several years. If they could produce enough, I am sure countries from Russia's near abroad would order it. China doesn't have any financial limitations that are preventing Russia from solving the Superjet's teething issues. Why would you wait years for a Superjet when you can pick up some of Jet Blue's E-190s in a few months?

Look to the MC-21 to see what kind of progress will have been made on that front.

China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.
 
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Erebus
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:29 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.


It is a rather large orderbook but the vast majority of those are being held by an astonishing number of Chinese leasing and banking insitutions. I do wonder where these are going to be placed apart from perhaps some third world 'vanity airlines' who'll likely end up parking them in the desert after a few years, beholden to their debts.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 245
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:41 pm

Erebus wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.


It is a rather large orderbook but the vast majority of those are being held by an astonishing number of Chinese leasing and banking insitutions. I do wonder where these are going to be placed apart from perhaps some third world 'vanity airlines' who'll likely end up parking them in the desert after a few years, beholden to their debts.


You are 100% correct sir. These will be bought by the Big 3 Chinese and will be flown (with less efficiency than their 737/A320...hell even the MC-21 is better) actively.

Most other airlines that buy them will either go bankrupt or will buy them in exchange for a bailout (COUGH...HNA...COUGH...ARJ-21...COUGH)...
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4603
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:00 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Erebus wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.


It is a rather large orderbook but the vast majority of those are being held by an astonishing number of Chinese leasing and banking insitutions. I do wonder where these are going to be placed apart from perhaps some third world 'vanity airlines' who'll likely end up parking them in the desert after a few years, beholden to their debts.


You are 100% correct sir. These will be bought by the Big 3 Chinese and will be flown (with less efficiency than their 737/A320...hell even the MC-21 is better) actively.

Most other airlines that buy them will either go bankrupt or will buy them in exchange for a bailout (COUGH...HNA...COUGH...ARJ-21...COUGH)...



...and before they're flown by airlines, they still have to get produced in numbers large enough to actually matter. Booking sales is the easy part.

In the meantime, all of the airlines with C919 orders, are grabbing as many 737's and/or 320's they can afford.
What the...?
 
hz747300
Posts: 2279
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:38 pm

Re: CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Fri Nov 16, 2018 12:16 am

I still contend that the until the Chinese majors buy their countryman's planes, these ventures will be fore non-core ASEAN nations, perhaps African nations, and maybe some Latin American ones too. It's fine, but I believe that until these planes prove reliability, supply chain for parts, ease of maintenance, the pickup by mainstream airlines will be slim. I do wish them well, and it would be good if someone can credibly break the duopoly.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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qf789
Moderator
Posts: 7221
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Fri Nov 16, 2018 1:06 pm

Please stay on topic and keep it to aviation only. If you wish to discuss things other than aviation it belongs in the non-aviation forum only
Forum Moderator
 
Begues
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:43 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Fri Nov 16, 2018 3:06 pm

gia777 wrote:
I will never ever step into any plane that is made in china. Look at MA60 case. Even for free..


The history of shitty airplane engineering in the west is pretty appaling, it would take the Chinese decades to catch up with the west. Every manufacturer of commercial airplanes in the west has had faulty designs and in some cases outright criminal engineering negligence covered up by govenment corruption.


The DC 9 alone had 145 hull losses with 3,697 fatalities, the MD 80 is now up to 35 hull losses with 1446 fatalities. The Boeing 707 had 172 hull losses with 3022 fatalities. The amazing 727 that all aerophiles gloss over had 118 hull losses with 4209 fatalities. And the 737 family is now up to over 5000 fatalities with over 180 hull losses. For China to catch up to the US and European notoriously bad safety record would require planes to virtually rain down from the sky.


All the people talking about chinese incompetence and corruption should really take a deep dive in western aviation history, right up to present day we find corruption all the way up to the highest level including govenmental overseeing bodies such as the FAA and EASA.

https://anticorruptiondigest.com/anti-c ... z5X1wiyPPu
 
mandala499
Posts: 6512
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

Re: CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:58 pm

gia777 wrote:
I will never ever step into any plane that is made in china. Look at MA60 case. Even for free..

I suggest think carefully about A320s and 737s... as some are assembled in China.... and some of those are flying for non-Chinese airlines. :)
Oh hang on, 1 is flying in Indonesia!!! Be careful... you might end up flying one... or maybe you've flown one without realizing it! :P
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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Stitch
Posts: 25745
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

Re: CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Fri Nov 16, 2018 7:45 pm

gia777 wrote:
I will never ever step into any plane that is made in china. Look at MA60 case. Even for free..

mandala499 wrote:
I suggest think carefully about A320s and 737s... as some are assembled in China.... and some of those are flying for non-Chinese airlines. :)


Airbus has an A320 Final Assembly Line in China and until recently their output was dedicated to the Chinese market, however they are now starting deliveries to other Asian operators.

Boeing has a 737 Completion Center there, which handles cabin outfitting for Chinese airline customers. The "green" airframes are still assembled in the US.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1598
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Fri Nov 16, 2018 8:22 pm

gia777 wrote:
I will never ever step into any plane that is made in china. Look at MA60 case. Even for free..

Then you might as well stop driving, flying, getting onto a ship or for that matter stepping in a building my friend; because, i bet that multiple parts that go into a airplane, car or building originated in China even if the entire product was assembled somewhere else. You could find some product perhaps that didn't have parts coming from Brazil, UK, Sweden, Australia or for that matter Russia, Canada, India or USA. But China? Forget it. Heck, the furniture, drywall, dining table, floor laminate in my house are ALL made in China including the laptop, keyboard and monitor that i am using to type this post!
 
ewt340
Posts: 364
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Sat Nov 17, 2018 1:09 am

747megatop wrote:
gia777 wrote:
I will never ever step into any plane that is made in china. Look at MA60 case. Even for free..

Then you might as well stop driving, flying, getting onto a ship or for that matter stepping in a building my friend; because, i bet that multiple parts that go into a airplane, car or building originated in China even if the entire product was assembled somewhere else. You could find some product perhaps that didn't have parts coming from Brazil, UK, Sweden, Australia or for that matter Russia, Canada, India or USA. But China? Forget it. Heck, the furniture, drywall, dining table, floor laminate in my house are ALL made in China including the laptop, keyboard and monitor that i am using to type this post!


With due respect, many of those products have been manufactured in china for decades now, they have the jizz for it and they have quality control from the Western companies directly.

These plane are developed, controlled and manufactured entirely by the Chinese and Russian Government. Can I said corruption would be their biggest problems?
 
mandala499
Posts: 6512
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

Re: CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:07 am

Stitch wrote:
Airbus has an A320 Final Assembly Line in China and until recently their output was dedicated to the Chinese market, however they are now starting deliveries to other Asian operators.

PK-AZA with Indonesia Air Asia was assembled in China (test rego B-508L)
Has been doing quite well, with fewer snags in the first few months than its TLS assembled siblings... however, maybe they got lucky :P

Euphorian wrote:
For the ASEAN states:
-Cambodia: Maybe
-Laos; I don't think QV will order widebodies, ever.
-Myanmar: probably
-Indonesia: No chance.
-Singapore: Never.
-Malaysia: Never.
-Philippines: Only if PR/5J is forced to do so.
-Thailand: Only if TG is forced to do so.
-Vietnam: I don't think VN would buy Chinese aircraft.
-Brunei Darussalam: No.

We got one airline being bought out by "an investment conglomerate", and it looks like they're going to get the C919/929... And another airline is in the process of being bought out by another "investment conglomerate", and planning to operate the Ms-21.

And err, COMAC was spotted going around Indonesia's MROs to see who can be their local partner for C919 support center.

Bold moves, but as always, I'll believe it when I see it.
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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neutrino
Posts: 1502
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:22 am

747megatop wrote:
gia777 wrote:
I will never ever step into any plane that is made in china. Look at MA60 case. Even for free..

Then you might as well stop driving, flying, getting onto a ship or for that matter stepping in a building my friend; because, i bet that multiple parts that go into a airplane, car or building originated in China even if the entire product was assembled somewhere else. You could find some product perhaps that didn't have parts coming from Brazil, UK, Sweden, Australia or for that matter Russia, Canada, India or USA. But China? Forget it. Heck, the furniture, drywall, dining table, floor laminate in my house are ALL made in China including the laptop, keyboard and monitor that i am using to type this post!

The foolproof solution to not being in an aircrash is not to fly at all.
Heck,I was always telling my such acquaintances - big hesitation to call them friends - that the best way to ensure not to die is not to live at all. If there is no life, then there is no misfortune, no accident, and no death.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
TheEuphorian
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:35 am

Re: CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:19 pm


We got one airline being bought out by "an investment conglomerate", and it looks like they're going to get the C919/929...


what airline? havent seen it in the news or forums
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