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WorldFlier
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:20 pm

spinotter wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


The people of Tibet and Xinjiang would disagree with your statement (but Mrs. World Flier would agree with you).

China returned the favor by "invading" "Inner Mongolia" - and have all but invaded the actual country of Mongolia but without firing a single shot.

Taiwan has decided it wants to be a free country, and they're an ally...so it would be an "invasion"

So, let me get this straight it's ok to invade if it was part of the empire? Asking for a Russian Comrade of mine, he would appreciate that view point...

But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.
 
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thekorean
Posts: 1699
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Re: China, Russia unveil Widebody to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:07 am

BrianWilkes wrote:
yes well Russian and China, a copy of a copy. Nothing original guys?

There’s only so many ways to design a jet.
 
c933103
Posts: 2823
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Re: Chinese, Russian aircraft to compete with Airbus, Boeing

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:27 am

frmrCapCadet wrote:
Their high speed train system was compromised in an entire plethora of problems. But ..... They did it and it seems to be working well. And I suspect it is as complicated a system as any plane.

Except multiple high speed train manufacturers have agreed to technology transfer agreement that transferred knowledge of those high-speed train production to China. And such thing didn't happen for aircraft yet.
 
TheEuphorian
Posts: 78
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:35 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:26 am


But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.

For the ASEAN states:
-Cambodia: Maybe
-Laos; I don't think QV will order widebodies, ever.
-Myanmar: probably
-Indonesia: No chance.
-Singapore: Never.
-Malaysia: Never.
-Philippines: Only if PR/5J is forced to do so.
-Thailand: Only if TG is forced to do so.
-Vietnam: I don't think VN would buy Chinese aircraft.
-Brunei Darussalam: No.
 
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pylon101
Posts: 563
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:51 pm

For Russia, it is all about R&D and transportation security.
To re-start development and manufacturing of the whole line - from IL-114 turboprop to what is now called C929 - would be a huge achievement.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
hz747300
Posts: 2263
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:09 pm

TheEuphorian wrote:

But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.

For the ASEAN states:
-Cambodia: Maybe
-Laos; I don't think QV will order widebodies, ever.
-Myanmar: probably
-Indonesia: No chance.
-Singapore: Never.
-Malaysia: Never.
-Philippines: Only if PR/5J is forced to do so.
-Thailand: Only if TG is forced to do so.
-Vietnam: I don't think VN would buy Chinese aircraft.
-Brunei Darussalam: No.


I don't think TG would, they don't have to. But maybe one of those disposable airlines in Thailand might, like Siam Airlines, or its replacements.
Keep on truckin'...
 
EBJ68
Posts: 21
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Re: Comac, UAC to develop CR929 300-seat widebody aircraft

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:45 pm

The outcome of this project may ultimately amaze us all. It'll never happen? Remains to be seen. The possibilities are fascinating.
 
ExpatVet
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2018 4:35 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:57 pm

spinotter wrote:
Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


Pardon me for a bland question, but how exactly do you have an Empire without imperialistic adventures?
L101, 733/4/5/8, 741/2/3 (never managed 744!), MD 80/2/3/8/90, MD11, DHC8/3/Q4, E170, E195, 757, 77W, 763/4, Travel Air 2000. A300/310, A319/320/321, A333, probably a few others I forget. Passenger, not pilot, alas! BUD based.
 
Interflug74
Posts: 16
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:22 pm

spinotter wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


To stay with the truth, China and Germany had tight connections eversince. Germany was THE partner for China in political and economically areas, until 1941 when the JAPANES joined the war.
Even the Hitlerjugend was active in China. After 1941, complained by both sides, connection was lost until the war ends. (after the war China startet the 3-years plan for building it´s industrie, laid together with germay) Joining the allies, China declared war on germany 09.12.1941. Not the other way round.

The only military intervention was putting down the boxer rebellion, and wich was to protect foreign people in China.
 
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Erebus
Posts: 672
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Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:52 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.


If you needed any sort of indication of where this might sell, just follow the orderbooks of the current portfolio of Russian and Chinese products, in service and in development.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

Erebus wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
But back to aviation! The C929 will sell in Russia, China, Venezuela, Cuba, Sub-Saharan Africa, and potentially some ASEAN states.


If you needed any sort of indication of where this might sell, just follow the orderbooks of the current portfolio of Russian and Chinese products, in service and in development.


If Venezuela's economy wasn't down a toilet, they'd order some Sukhoi Superjets (they only have money for military equipment).

The Superjet has a backlog of several years. If they could produce enough, I am sure countries from Russia's near abroad would order it. China doesn't have any financial limitations that are preventing Russia from solving the Superjet's teething issues. Why would you wait years for a Superjet when you can pick up some of Jet Blue's E-190s in a few months?

Look to the MC-21 to see what kind of progress will have been made on that front.

China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.
 
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Erebus
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:29 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.


It is a rather large orderbook but the vast majority of those are being held by an astonishing number of Chinese leasing and banking insitutions. I do wonder where these are going to be placed apart from perhaps some third world 'vanity airlines' who'll likely end up parking them in the desert after a few years, beholden to their debts.
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:41 pm

Erebus wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.


It is a rather large orderbook but the vast majority of those are being held by an astonishing number of Chinese leasing and banking insitutions. I do wonder where these are going to be placed apart from perhaps some third world 'vanity airlines' who'll likely end up parking them in the desert after a few years, beholden to their debts.


You are 100% correct sir. These will be bought by the Big 3 Chinese and will be flown (with less efficiency than their 737/A320...hell even the MC-21 is better) actively.

Most other airlines that buy them will either go bankrupt or will buy them in exchange for a bailout (COUGH...HNA...COUGH...ARJ-21...COUGH)...
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:00 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Erebus wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
China has not made a successful airliner yet, but the COMAC's C919 has an (theoretical) order book that would have made Airbus' first plane's pre-order book get size-envy.


It is a rather large orderbook but the vast majority of those are being held by an astonishing number of Chinese leasing and banking insitutions. I do wonder where these are going to be placed apart from perhaps some third world 'vanity airlines' who'll likely end up parking them in the desert after a few years, beholden to their debts.


You are 100% correct sir. These will be bought by the Big 3 Chinese and will be flown (with less efficiency than their 737/A320...hell even the MC-21 is better) actively.

Most other airlines that buy them will either go bankrupt or will buy them in exchange for a bailout (COUGH...HNA...COUGH...ARJ-21...COUGH)...



...and before they're flown by airlines, they still have to get produced in numbers large enough to actually matter. Booking sales is the easy part.

In the meantime, all of the airlines with C919 orders, are grabbing as many 737's and/or 320's they can afford.
What the...?
 
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spinotter
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:33 pm

ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:

Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


Isn't it great, the people who got invaded now became the invaders themself. Beautiful way of human nature.


The Chinese Empire has exercised suzerainty over Xinjiang since the Han Dynasty some 2000 years ago. Tibet has been under some Mongol and later Chinese control since the Mongol dynasty in the 1200's. How about if we talk about the expansion of Russia to the Pacific, or the extermination of the Native American population by the Europeans then by the United States? Many more Uighurs and Tibetans still are alive now in 2018 than Native Americans, wouldn't you agree?
 
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spinotter
Posts: 219
Joined: Wed May 27, 2015 1:37 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Sun Nov 11, 2018 5:40 pm

ExpatVet wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


Pardon me for a bland question, but how exactly do you have an Empire without imperialistic adventures?


I stated that China has been less imperialistic than Japan, the UK, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, the various Islamic Empires, or the United States, not totally devoid of imperialism. Would you not agree? Of course their geographical location, surrounded by ocean, desert, and the Himalayas, was a huge factor in their modest aspirations, but still, the LEAST imperialistic of all great powers throughout history.
 
c933103
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Sun Nov 11, 2018 6:06 pm

spinotter wrote:
The Chinese Empire has exercised suzerainty over Xinjiang since the Han Dynasty some 2000 years ago. Tibet has been under some Mongol and later Chinese control since the Mongol dynasty in the 1200's.

If exercising suzerainty signify ownership, does that mean the US own Palau now?
How about if we talk about the expansion of Russia to the Pacific,
That's almost no man's land except a few tribes?
or the extermination of the Native American population by the Europeans then by the United States? Many more Uighurs and Tibetans still are alive now in 2018 than Native Americans, wouldn't you agree?
At least aboriginal American can still learn their own culture and languages without fear?
ExpatVet wrote:

Pardon me for a bland question, but how exactly do you have an Empire without imperialistic adventures?

It's easy, claim everywhere you expanded into to be rightfully yours, so the expansion won't be imperialistic. Some European countries tried and failed at that a few decades ago.

spinotter wrote:
I stated that China has been less imperialistic than Japan, the UK, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, the various Islamic Empires, or the United States, not totally devoid of imperialism. Would you not agree? Of course their geographical location, surrounded by ocean, desert, and the Himalayas, was a huge factor in their modest aspirations, but still, the LEAST imperialistic of all great powers throughout history.

I see, so getting all conquerable lands until you face natural barriers in all directions is not imperialistic.
 
JoeCanuck
Posts: 4517
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:01 pm

spinotter wrote:
ExpatVet wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


Pardon me for a bland question, but how exactly do you have an Empire without imperialistic adventures?


I stated that China has been less imperialistic than Japan, the UK, France, Germany, Russia, Rome, the various Islamic Empires, or the United States, not totally devoid of imperialism. Would you not agree? Of course their geographical location, surrounded by ocean, desert, and the Himalayas, was a huge factor in their modest aspirations, but still, the LEAST imperialistic of all great powers throughout history.


Perhaps...but they sure are making up for it now. Annexing the entire South China sea, much to the consternation of countries in the region, is one example.
What the...?
 
747megatop
Posts: 1590
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:13 pm

spinotter wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
Wayfarer515 wrote:

Youve got to be kidding right? Can you tell me the last time China invaded a sovereign country? You must be thinking of certain other country that acts like the judge of the world...without anybody asking them to.


Tibet, Xinjiang, Mongolia, Korea, Taiwan (if they could), Vietnam, should I continue?


Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.

But China is no less imperialistic. Other (smaller) countries have been a victim of Chinese imperialistic adventures (India, Vietnam, Philippines to name a few). Like i said all 5 UN security council permanent members are guilty of it (and that's the reason they are the big 5 and remain in that exclusive club..it is all about power & muscle). The other past imperialistic powers - German, Japan and Italy are also guilty of it.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Sun Nov 11, 2018 10:44 pm

spinotter wrote:
they were once part of the Chinese Empire.

A great number of places that now are part of one country once belonged to another country, if only briefly. Does that mean that these territories can be legally reclaimed?

Germany once extended far to the east and west. Does that justify invading Poland and France?
The USA were once part of the UK. They even still speak the same language. Should they reunite under british leadership?
The Mongol Khans ruled an empire that included major parts of what is now China. Would you return those parts to present day mongolia?
The Inka had control over much of south america. Why not return control of the land to their descendants?
 
SurlyBonds
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:24 am

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:28 am

c933103 wrote:
At least aboriginal American can still learn their own culture and languages without fear?


That has really only been true since the 1970s or even early 1980s. Visit the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center in Albuquerque sometime. The "Indian Schools" in Albuquerque and Santa Fe were largely about beating the native culture out of Native kids and yes, punishing them for speaking their languages.
 
c933103
Posts: 2823
Joined: Wed May 18, 2016 7:23 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:57 am

SurlyBonds wrote:
c933103 wrote:
At least aboriginal American can still learn their own culture and languages without fear?


That has really only been true since the 1970s or even early 1980s. Visit the Indian Pueblo Cultural Center in Albuquerque sometime. The "Indian Schools" in Albuquerque and Santa Fe were largely about beating the native culture out of Native kids and yes, punishing them for speaking their languages.

Is it better to still keep those practice even now than getting rid of them half century ago?
 
ewt340
Posts: 232
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Chinese and Russian Widebody Project takes shape

Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:47 am

spinotter wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
spinotter wrote:

Tibet and Xinjiang have long been viewed as parts of China. The Mongols invaded and ruled China, not the other way round. Taiwan should be part of China, if it could be arranged in a way fair to everyone. Vietnam and Korea, yes - but they were once part of the Chinese Empire. China has been the victim of Britain, France, Germany, Japan, the US. In the scheme of history, China has been the great power least embarking upon imperialistic adventures.


Isn't it great, the people who got invaded now became the invaders themself. Beautiful way of human nature.


The Chinese Empire has exercised suzerainty over Xinjiang since the Han Dynasty some 2000 years ago. Tibet has been under some Mongol and later Chinese control since the Mongol dynasty in the 1200's. How about if we talk about the expansion of Russia to the Pacific, or the extermination of the Native American population by the Europeans then by the United States? Many more Uighurs and Tibetans still are alive now in 2018 than Native Americans, wouldn't you agree?


Oh relax kiddo, they're not the only one. My home country also fall victims to this hypocrisy.
 
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neutrino
Posts: 1444
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:33 pm

Re: CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:21 pm

Guess I have to be an unsolicited busybody here.
The last 10 or so posts has sort of meandered into the realm of the rise, wane and shifting boundaries of empires. Please correct course back to the original premise of the thread to prevent the mods from locking it. That said, the discussion can be continued in a new thread should the players so wish to. Thank you and have a nice day.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
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