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Scipio
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CRAIC CR929 discussion thread

Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:52 am

Flightglobal reports that COMAC is considering developing a 300-seat widebody as its next big project, and would like to work with Russia on this.

Highlights of the Flightglobal article:

- COMAC is studying various concepts, but research and development have not started yet
- the aircraft would be a competitor to the B787 and A350, with a range of 6,500-8,000 NM
- talks have started with GE, P&W and RR on engine options
- resources would be focused on the project once the C919 goes into full production
- COMAC is seeking to cooperate with Russia on the project, but a final decision on this will need to be made at the government level
- targeted EIS is 2023-25
- COMAC is also looking at a new 100-120 regional jet to succeed the ARJ21, but this has lower priority than the widebody project


https://www.flightglobal.com/fg-club/in ... -widebody/ (registration required)
Last edited by SQ22 on Sat Nov 10, 2018 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
 
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scbriml
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:12 am

This is hardly a big surprise. However, one can't help thinking that maybe they need to get the C919 into reliable airline service before they take the next big step. I also have serious doubts as to how well this would be received by airlines outside China?
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queb
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:34 am

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
- resources would be focused on the project once the C919 goes into full production

Not before 2021-2022, probably more.

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
- targeted EIS is 2023-25

At least 7-8 years later is more realistic.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 1):
maybe they need to get the C919 into reliable airline service before they take the next big step.

Nevermind the C919, they should try to get the ARJ21 to its customers...

But yes, the drive to compete with Airbus and Boeing is clearly there.
If it brings some healthy competition and more diversity on the tarmacs, then all the better.
It will take a while though.
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leo467
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:24 pm

I just dont understand why they are re-building some of A/B current core products (later and not necessarily better) instead of creating a niche of their own first (eg a true A300 successor, higher capacity regional plane). IMHO chances of selling such a product internationally would be much better.
 
Scipio
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:28 pm

Air&Cosmos has some more on this.

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin is reported as saying that Russia and China are natural partners for this project and that Russia is ready to engage in "practical cooperation". Russia's main motivation is to create an aircraft that will not be limited to the Russian market.

Russia would also like to work with China on the development of a helicopter that is more capable than the Mi-26.

http://www.air-cosmos.com/industrie/...fait-les-yeux-doux-a-la-chine.html

Quoting Leo467 (Reply 4):
I just dont understand why they are re-building some of A/B current core products (later and not necessarily better) instead of creating a niche of their own first

I guess they envisage having two captive markets...
 
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Stitch
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Mon Oct 21, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting Leo467 (Reply 4):
I just dont understand why they are re-building some of A/B current core products (later and not necessarily better) instead of creating a niche of their own first (eg a true A300 successor, higher capacity regional plane). IMHO chances of selling such a product internationally would be much better.

I have similar thoughts. While not bullish on a small short-range widebody in general, a Chinese model would have the advantage of the Chinese government forcing it on Chinese carriers so it does have a built-in market.

As for international sales, China does have major influence in a number of areas, like Africa. In the past, those counties purchased and operated very old Western airframes, however they are now ordering modern Airbus and Boeing airframes. I am guessing the Chinese government hopes that they can use their influence to get those countries to buy the COMAC equivalent, instead?
 
shankly
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:01 pm

........so lets build a narrowbody....this will do:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeroen Schonewille


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Allen Zhao



....and now lets build a 300 seater.....yep, this will do it:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Goh Weiyang

L1011 - P F M
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting Leo467 (Reply 4):
I just dont understand why they are re-building some of A/B current core products (later and not necessarily better) instead of creating a niche of their own first (eg a true A300 successor, higher capacity regional plane). IMHO chances of selling such a product internationally would be much better.

I tend to agree. If anything I think they should be taking an existing end of life frame, say the A343, and let them go and re-work it into a GTF powered mid-hauler for 300pax, either as a commercial venture or as a proof of ability. But their inability to manage the ARJ project leaves me with doubts as to whether they could even manage this.


Dan  
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PEK777
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:12 am

They should consider it, then quickly come to the conclusion that it simply is not a feasible project anytime soon.
 
AS737MAX
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 22, 2013 1:16 am

They can't even get the C919/ARJ21 out there....
 
JAAlbert
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 22, 2013 2:27 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):
But yes, the drive to compete with Airbus and Boeing is clearly there.
If it brings some healthy competition and more diversity on the tarmacs, then all the better.
It will take a while though.

I suspect this push has as much to do with developing its aviation industry for military purposes -- it doesn't seem that China is particularly worried about getting its aviation products out on time or at a profit.
 
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Ty134A
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:14 pm

Since I have been flying on quite some Russian/Soviet aircraft, I think I can say that there is more hope to such a project than one might consider. The eye opener to me was my flight on the IL9. The leap from the old Tushkas and ILW is astonishing. And I do believe that they are able of producing an airliner that will have a fuel burn at least close, if not even, to the A350 and the B787. And they can learn from their compeditors, remember... both countries have both products on order. If they can get a hand on modern, western engines that is....
flown on: TU3,TU5,T20,IL8,IL6,ILW,IL9,I14,YK4,YK2,AN2,AN4,A26,A28,A38,A40,A81,SU9,L4T,L11,D1C,M11,M80,M87,
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Aither
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 22, 2013 10:27 pm

by 2030 it could be more expensive to manufacture an aircraft in China compared to Europe or the US....
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caribb
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Tue Oct 22, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting Scipio (Thread starter):
- COMAC is also looking at a new 100-120 regional jet to succeed the ARJ21, but this has lower priority than the widebody project

What the... why is Bombardier in a deal with COMAC then if in the end they are going to build a competitor to the CS100? I read way back Bombardier would not build a ture 150 seater because of the COMAC agreement (I'm not sure of the validity of that though) and the c919. so if true, what is Bombardier getting out of this Chinese agreement other than a competitor coming back at them with their own technology? A 30 plane order and a pat on the back while they go off and develope 300 seat widebodies?

[Edited 2013-10-22 16:59:41]
 
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Aesma
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RE: Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody

Wed Oct 23, 2013 2:12 am

Weld two C919 on top of each other and off you go !
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AngMoh
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China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:53 am

China seems to aspire to develop a widebody tentatively called C929. My guess is that it will be similar ("inspired by") the A333.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...na-looking-to-develop/1458870.html

There was a thread about this about a year ago and now it seems to have progressed.

Comac Considering 300-seat Widebody (by Scipio Oct 8 2013 in Civil Aviation)
727 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 739ER 742 743 744 752 753 762 772 773 77W 788 A300 A310 A319 A320 A321 A332 A333 A343 A345 A346 A359 A388 DC-9 DC-10 MD11 MD81 MD82 MD87 F70 ERJ145 E170 E175 E190 E195 ATR72 Q400 CRJ200 CRJ700 CRJ900 BAE146 RJ85
 
29erUSA187
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:04 am

Invading the Regional market like the MRJ, Superjet, and the Comac is one thing. It's a market neither Airbus or Boeing has entered. Trying to go head to head with the A330 and 787 along with similarly sized Aircraft is doomed to fail.
 
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scbriml
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:59 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
Trying to go head to head with the A330 and 787 along with similarly sized Aircraft is doomed to fail.

I suspect people said the same thing when Airbus launched the A320. "Going up against Boeing and McDD? Ha ha, good luck with that."

If they build it and even if it only sold to Chinese airlines, it could still put a dent in A & B sales.
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BlueSky1976
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:28 am

C919 has some 300-odd orders. It is likely more will come in, depending on the aircraft's performance.
China actually has a pretty good chance with C929. It will not sell in numbers 787s and A350s do, but anywhere north of 300 frames sold should be called a success.

There's a reason behind Airbus opening up Tianjin facility.
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peterinlisbon
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:45 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
There's a reason behind Airbus opening up Tianjin facility.

Maybe the reason China wanted these production lines to open up in the first place was so that they could copy the technology and build their own planes. They've done the same with everything else (phones, railways, electronic goods). In a few years they'll be building planes that are just as good at a fraction of the price, and in any case Chinese airlines will buy local once they have that option.
 
aviationaware
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:48 am

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 3):
There's a reason behind Airbus opening up Tianjin facility.

Yes, currency hedging.
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:25 am

I'd call it an attempt to protect the market share in the region.

Chinese-built aircraft, like automobiles, are only going to get better with time, not worse.
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behramjee
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:02 pm

plus the Chinese Govt will definitely use their influence to ensure that their African and Central Asian friends who cannot afford expensive Airbus/Boeing aircraft end ordering few COMAC units.
 
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scbriml
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 1:13 pm

Quoting behramjee (Reply 7):
plus the Chinese Govt will definitely use their influence to ensure that their African and Central Asian friends who cannot afford expensive Airbus/Boeing aircraft end ordering few COMAC units

Wel if those countries cannot afford A or B planes, then there's no loss for A or B, is there? It may result in a few more C929 sales, but not at the expense of A or B sales.
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AirbusA6
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1): Trying to go head to head with the A330 and 787 along with similarly sized Aircraft is doomed to fail.
I suspect people said the same thing when Airbus launched the A320. "Going up against Boeing and McDD? Ha ha, good luck with that."

If they build it and even if it only sold to Chinese airlines, it could still put a dent in A & B sales.

Not exactly the same, Europe had plenty of airliner experience, even if commercially they weren't as successful as the
Boeing and Douglas products. If the BAC 1-11 had been developed as much as the DC9, it could have had another 20 years in production!

I'm sure China will eventually produce a regional widebody, especially if they team up with Russia, and even if only airlines in China and a few developing countries buy it, that's a decent enough market. After all the first Airbus was the regional A300...
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Flighty
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:23 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 6):

Chinese-built aircraft, like automobiles, are only going to get better with time, not worse.

These programs take time. A really, really long time. Unless an Elon Musk type figure is in charge. Each step is measured in decades. South Korea was 20-25 years behind Japan in cars. China is still decades behind SK in cars.
 
holzmann
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:30 pm

Let the new wars begin...

A or B or ... C?
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na
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
Trying to go head to head with the A330 and 787 along with similarly sized Aircraft is doomed to fail.

China itself is a sizable market for a "small" widebody. The A332 seems to be the standard plane there. Yes, the first try is likely not a winner, but the government will protect it assuring for hundreds of sales which will pay the bill.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
I suspect people said the same thing when Airbus launched the A320. "Going up against Boeing and McDD? Ha ha, good luck with that."

Come on, Airbus was already quite successful and experienced with modern airliners before the A320. Even their very first plane, the A300, was a success!
China is different. And I do not expect them to create something new. Their style is steal and learn and make a copy working ok-ish at a low price (and throw it away after half of the time a western plane will fly).

Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
If they build it and even if it only sold to Chinese airlines, it could still put a dent in A & B sales.

Right. If they can gain more than 5% of the current 787/A330/A350 market, it´ll be worth to try for China.
 
Rara
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:35 pm

Seems like a good decision to me. China will catch up with the EU and the US as an economic zone sometime before 2050, and there's no reason why China shouldn't produce a full line of civil aircraft. The Japanese could have equally done that, but were amicably convinced by their North American friends to rather purchase Boeing aircraft.

To be a true player on the global market, you need to offer both short-haul and long-haul aircraft. Since it takes decades to develop an aircraft platform to its full potential, now is as good a time as any to start.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
Trying to go head to head with the A330 and 787 along with similarly sized Aircraft is doomed to fail.

Your living in the past. China can pull this off.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting BlueSky1976 (Reply 6):

Chinese-built aircraft, like automobiles, are only going to get better with time, not worse.

I think that's reasonable. 40 years ago, no one will buy a Japanese car, that's a stupid idea.

25 years ago, OK Japanese cars are good, but no one will buy a Korean car, that's stupid.

Today, OK Korean cars are good, but seriously, no one will ever buy a Chinese car, that's stupid. Right?

Aircraft are not as precisely analogous to this, but that exact same cycle applied to Airbus & Embraer.

The lead times may end up being a lot longer here,
but I think it's hubristically foolish to think that a well financed, govt backed concern can't enter the market and do well.

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 9):

Not exactly the same, Europe had plenty of airliner experience, even if commercially they weren't as successful as the
Boeing and Douglas products. If the BAC 1-11 had been developed as much as the DC9, it could have had another 20 years in production!

Very true. But it is worth noting that they'll be partnered with Russia's UAC on this venture. They won't be devoid of collective experience. I get the sense that this will go like Airbus, with moderate success at first, with an eventual serious place in the industry. They'll probably have to give away a lot more places than Airbus ever did, but they'll get somewhere sooner or later.
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S75752
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 11):
A or B or ... C?

If the price and fuel efficiency is right...

So, curious; would US embargoed nations like North Korea, Cuba, Iran be able to buy such a craft from China, or would some (probably GE engines) component(s) hold it back? I can't help but have thoughts of using Russia built and engineered parts. But maybe that's just bias from wanting an IL-96 reboot composite twin.
 
wingman
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:17 pm

I have a feeling these 200 A330 sales coming up will be bittersweet. Tear that C929 apart someday and I'd wager it's bones will be an exact replica of the 330R. I think Leahy predicted this when the 787 launched, and we know the man is a modern day soothsayer. How many times has he predicted A380 sales and then two months later he sells the exact number? When JL says something's gonna happen I believe it.
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 16):
So, curious; would US embargoed nations like North Korea, Cuba, Iran be able to buy such a craft from China, or would some (probably GE engines) component(s) hold it back?

Who says they'd use GE engines? If they're capable of assembling the rest of the aircraft by themselves, why not also the engines at some stage?
 
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EPA001
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 11):
Let the new wars begin...

A or B or ... C?

A-net will be booming because of that.  

But seriously, the Chinese will no doubt be able to develop a serious wide body airliner, as they will develop a serious narrow body airliner. And in 10 or 20 years the aviation world can look totally different.
 
Flighty
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:51 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 16):
I can't help but have thoughts of using Russia built and engineered parts. But maybe that's just bias from wanting an IL-96 reboot composite twin.

It is useful to consider Russia. They have always had excellent engineers and metallurgy. But they simply weren't big enough (market) or rich enough to sustain the technology investment, so their industry mostly fell into a coma. They had decades of civ av expertise that China can only dream of. They were making SSTs in 1969.

My point is, good engineering was not enough. It takes money and a huge market to fund technology and iron out defects. China now has much more money than Russia ever did. And a huge internal market. That's their ace.


So yeah, it would be interesting to see Russia and China collaborate, and get fully non-Western new generation airliners. Could be amazing.

[Edited 2014-11-07 09:04:15]
 
B757Forever
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 4:55 pm

"When will the last C929 be retired"   It's A-net, I couldn't resist!
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 5:08 pm

Although I worry about they run before they learn to walk, but I am sure they also have get a great deal from manufacturing MD80/90/A320's. Although they still need to prove themselves with ARJ and C919 and they would be ready for widebody in maybe 15 years. By then it would be able to sell to the big three, plus for the independents, to upgrade to widebody. Furthermore, there would be ready customer in Iran, former CIS, taking the place of Russia. For engine, they still need time to develop the right material and suitable Technics for the turbofan. It take time to learn from the learning curve, years ago nobody would buy buses, rolling stocks from China, now, even MTR in Hong Kong or Bigbus uses stocks/buses built in China
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Byrdluvs747
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 15):
I think that's reasonable. 40 years ago, no one will buy a Japanese car, that's a stupid idea.

A car is one thing, strapping yourself into a chinese copy of a European aluminum tube at 30k ft is another.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:05 pm

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 23):

Absolutely. Cars are way more dangerous, and operated by people with much less training.


There's really nothing here that stops COMAC from doing this one day that wasn't a problem for Airbus in 1971. Or Embraer in the 1980s. And I think that worked out just fine. It will certainly take a while, and a damned lot of tech support & infrastructure experience will have to happen, but I don't see these guys fading away either.
Much like a GE90, I'm a huge fan of Big Twins...
 
fly828
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:07 pm

Happened to find couple pictures from this year China Airshow. See the comparison between C-17 & Y-20. With this kind of pace of catching up, a lot of change id gonna happen soon.

China is always pointed as copy cat, however, big toys like such large aircraft is not as easy as just copying, it may steals some idea or concept from others before sketching, but more importantly, you have to have a very solid base of engineering and manufacturing, we have to admit this and give enough respect to China from this regard. Not mention unlike its competitors in other countries, China is highly restricted by the west to buy a lot of things to integrate into its advanced equipment directly, India can buy,Japan can buy even Airbus and Boeing can buy many things between but China can't. Most of the products are home developed. Not bad!
 
aviationaware
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 24):
There's really nothing here that stops COMAC from doing this one day that wasn't a problem for Airbus in 1971.

Yes, there is. They just don't have the technology. Airbus was basically a conglomerate of already operating and technologically advanced companies. They had little trouble in producing a cutting edge airliner.

COMAC, on the other hand, does not have this advantage. A plane from them will always be a little less sophisticated than an Airbus or Boeing frame. Until they have caught up, that is, for which they naturally need to get into things.

It may not seem so these days, but aircraft are still pretty high tech. The basic principle behind them is not but the details are. The Chinese will have significant trouble in producing high quality components of a certain class. For example, they will be absolutely unable to produce an engine that can compete with European or American engines with regards to fuel efficiency. Impossible. As would Embraer - they also use engines from established manufacturers. For Embraer that is not a problem, but for China it is - if they buy western engines instead of building their own, they will never learn to build competitive engines. If they do build their own, the aircraft will be even more of a niche product and definitely not a commercial success.
China's national self esteem almost commands them to go this way. We will see how it turns out.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 15):
25 years ago, OK Japanese cars are good, but no one will buy a Korean car, that's stupid.
Quoting S75752 (Reply 16):
If the price and fuel efficiency is right...
Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
My point is, good engineering was not enough. I

One aspect of selling airplanes that no-one here is talking about is post delivery support.

The Japanese and Korean have learned their lesson in providing quality customer support.

It's the commitment by both Airbus and Boeing to support the customer in keeping the airplanes flying (and all the necessary infrastructure to do so) that will keep Boeing and Airbus ahead of the Chinese (in the near and intermediate future).

Others in this forum can probably provide more insight on Chinese or Russian customer service . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Ab345
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 15):

True although asian cars have been a hit in Europe and parts of the planet for a while now dating back to the 60s while the States were still in the "if it ain't huge and needs a 6lt engine to produce 150Hp I ain't goin'"  Remember still in the 80s jokes in the US about Japanese cars being small?

China has a huge home market to cater to (larger than US and EU combined) and could surely pay its' way through the development of a wibebody and make the program work by having all of the home carriers buy and fly it. In a way it's what States and Europe did with their aviation industries a few decades ago. Subsidize it in a way to get a minimun momentum and try to pick up extra orders along the way. America had tax breaks and the USAF to fall back on, Europe had launch aid and China has the massive power of the "numbers"
 
777STL
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 7:53 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 15):
Today, OK Korean cars are good, but seriously, no one will ever buy a Chinese car, that's stupid. Right?

Well, until China can knock off a car such that it isn't a death trap, you won't find me in one. Or a Chinese airliner, for that matter.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 27):
One aspect of selling airplanes that no-one here is talking about is post delivery support.

It's been mentioned. But yes, that is probably the biggest weakness for COMAC. They're not talking about re-inventing the wheel. Though it's a complex affair, R&D and Manufacturing are not beyond what they can do. Sales and support are another story, and honestly, I think it will be the better part of a decade of mostly domestic operations before they get a good handle on that.

This was an issue for Emb for a while, (and it can be argued that they are still not to where B or A are), but there too (and we should note with a lot less industrial experience than B, Bd, A, or McD), they managed to do well in a very competitive market.

In any case, UAC is also a huge part of this (why do we all keep forgetting this?). As for support, they're difficult to quantify for the same reason Airbus was in the early days; it's an amalgam of several design bureaus.

Quoting Ab345 (Reply 28):
Remember still in the 80s jokes in the US about Japanese cars being small?

The 80s? We're still on about that (look up rolling coal if you want to see some really awful stuff).

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 27):
It's the commitment by both Airbus and Boeing to support the customer in keeping the airplanes flying (and all the necessary infrastructure to do so) that will keep Boeing and Airbus ahead of the Chinese (in the near and intermediate future).

Commitment? It's a requirement. Given that everything on a plane has to be OEM traceable, including MX procedures, I can't imagine it being possible to sell planes without a strong tech support. COMAC may be able to stay weak there for a while, but they won't wish to be a domestic player forever. From an industrial perspective, I just don't see them going as far as developing a twin aisle plane somehow not addressing that one.


If you're saying that customer and tech support are valid concerns for COMAC, I certainly agree. At this time. But using it as an argument against the possibility of COMAC having a future in the global commercial aviation marketplace is analogous to saying the 380 will never sell because Airport aprons, taxiways, & gates aren't "A380 ready". It will get addressed/fixed... because it has to.

Quoting fly828 (Reply 25):
Happened to find couple pictures from this year China Airshow. See the comparison between C-17 & Y-20. With this kind of pace of catching up, a lot of change id gonna happen soon.

Yeah, they look similar. I'd like to see more of their avionics & pwrplant specifications though.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 26):
They just don't have the technology.

In what way? Did you know Airbus has a FAL there for A32X? Are you saying it's impossible for COMAC to duplicate that? With UAC to help with engineering a state backed budget? If so, that would be the scandal of the century.

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 26):
For example, they will be absolutely unable to produce an engine that can compete with European or American engines with regards to fuel efficiency.

Oddly enough, Boeing and Airbus both also have that exact same problem. This is why they utilize engines sourced from GE, RR (and to a much lesser extent these days) PW. Not to mention engine alliances like EA, IAE, CFM, etc. What reason to see for COMAC being unable to do the same?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 20):
So yeah, it would be interesting to see Russia and China collaborate, and get fully non-Western new generation airliners. Could be amazing.

Serious question... Are they committed to using non-western engines? If not, they can be a lot further down this path than we think.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 29):
Well, until China can knock off a car such that it isn't a death trap, you won't find me in one. Or a Chinese airliner, for that matter.

Totally fair comment. All I'm saying is save that and take a look at it in twenty five years. You might surprise yourself.

[Edited 2014-11-07 12:20:35]
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glideslope
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:43 pm

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 4):
Maybe the reason China wanted these production lines to open up in the first place was so that they could copy the technology and build their own planes. They've done the same with everything else (phones, railways, electronic goods). In a few years they'll be building planes that are just as good at a fraction of the price, and in any case Chinese airlines will buy local once they have that option.

Absolutely, in these cases Airbus helps them again in order to manufacture out of the EU. Cheap labor, lacking QC, no need for employee benefits. Works out great for China. Not so much for France, Germany, Spain, and the UK.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
aviationaware
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:24 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
In what way? Did you know Airbus has a FAL there for A32X? Are you saying it's impossible for COMAC to duplicate that? With UAC to help with engineering a state backed budget? If so, that would be the scandal of the century.

Copying an FAL does hardly an airliner make. There's much more to it much earlier in the process.
 
AirbusA6
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RE: China Planning Comac C929 Widebody

Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:47 pm

It seems that several countries can produce an airliner if they really want to, but the engines and systems are a lot harder to replicate.
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