According to this article on, http://www.jetsite.com.br/2006/mostra_noticia.asp?noticia=9551, brazilian minister of tourism has revealed in Recife that the route ATL-REC will be officially annouced until the December, and to be operated by DL. She also said that AA will receive rights to fly to SSA, but that's about it.. no further details on dates or frequencies.
These flights should certainly be operated as extra frequecies, as the US-Brazil bilateral is already on its limit.
Great to see that this long rumored flights will finally commence.
Anyone with more information on this, probably DL will use a 757 to REC.
Rgs,
Neo
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RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting Neo (Thread starter): Anyone with more information on this, probably DL will use a 757 to REC. |
If DL does indeed start REC, it will need to be with a 763. Per the Great Circle Mapper, ATL-REC is over 4300 miles, which is just over the comfortable range of the 752.
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
Good news if true, but we have heard this how many times already? This summer a tourism minister in Brazil said that AA will be starting MIA-REC and MIA-SSA in November. In July, an official from Salvador said that AA was coming in February. I'll believe it when DL and AA make the official announcements. AA requested MIA-SSA and MIA-REC, though, with a daily flight split between the two (4x SSA/3x REC).
I'm curious as to if Delta wanted to fly to Recife, or just settled for it. ATL-REC makes no sense. Recife has a U.S. Consulate, but is a small market. ATL-SSA makes sense, and ATL-FOR is another better choice, as is ATL-CNF. They aren't going to have an easy time with that route, which is out of the 757s range.
This is progress if true, but Brazil needs to open up the Northeast entirely from the US, just like they have opened up all Northeast markets from Portugal.
[Edited 2007-10-06 20:48:19]
I'm curious as to if Delta wanted to fly to Recife, or just settled for it. ATL-REC makes no sense. Recife has a U.S. Consulate, but is a small market. ATL-SSA makes sense, and ATL-FOR is another better choice, as is ATL-CNF. They aren't going to have an easy time with that route, which is out of the 757s range.
This is progress if true, but Brazil needs to open up the Northeast entirely from the US, just like they have opened up all Northeast markets from Portugal.
[Edited 2007-10-06 20:48:19]
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): Good news if true, but we have heard this how many times already? I'll believe it when DL and AA make the official announcements. |
At least this seems to give prospective on when this can be announced and what would be AA and DL routes to the Brazilian Northeast. DL ATL-REC and AA MIA-SSA.
I guess it is a matter of time to hear something from DL and AA.
Rgs,
Neo
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
True. I've heard them all. We "mineros" have a major problem going to the US. My last 4 trips to N. America were delayed because of problems in GRU. Needless to say, we'd welcome ANY flight to the US whether it's CNF-ATL, CNF-MIA, CNF-JFK, on DL, AA, UA or Joe Schmoe's Airways.
Many people are talking about the CNF-ATL here but can that route be a money maker over NY, FL?
Many people are talking about the CNF-ATL here but can that route be a money maker over NY, FL?
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
Is DL going to be able to fill a 763 on this route?
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting Neo (Thread starter): According to this article on, http://www.jetsite.com.br/2006/mostra_noticia.asp?noticia=9551, brazilian minister of tourism has revealed in Recife that the route ATL-REC will be officially annouced until the December, and to be operated by DL. She also said that AA will receive rights to fly to SSA, but that's about it.. no further details on dates or frequencies. |
Lets wait till the airlines get informed as now is a matter of time (and planning). I think January is too short to develop all the details for a new base... could be the announcement, but i can't expect new flight before April 2008.
But this is good news !
| Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): Good news if true, but we have heard this how many times already? |
You're right.. so many times announced/confirmed, but as i told you, AA will receive 7 and DL 7 extra flights for the Northeast.
| Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): I'm curious as to if Delta wanted to fly to Recife, or just settled for it. ATL-REC makes no sense. Recife has a U.S. Consulate, but is a small market. ATL-SSA makes sense, and ATL-FOR is another better choice, as is ATL-CNF. They aren't going to have an easy time with that route, which is out of the 757s range |
CNF is object of a new negotiation that can create mor 14 flights (FOR and CNF) but on the first steps.
REC is more focused on resorts, and it's a strong cargo hub in the Northeast. Also Pernambuco state is strong in Ethanol, has the best seaport on the northeast, will receive a large investment with a new Petrobras oil refinery and has an interesting and growing technological center. I believe touristic and business can be enough to fill the plane with average to good yields in the beginning.
| Quoting Miner (Reply 4): True. I've heard them all. We "mineros" have a major problem going to the US. My last 4 trips to N. America were delayed because of problems in GRU. Needless to say, we'd welcome ANY flight to the US whether it's CNF-ATL, CNF-MIA, CNF-JFK, on DL, AA, UA or Joe Schmoe's Airways |
I have problems during the past 18 months and all times since April i decided just to fly from ATL to GIG. Never delayed! This Friday i flew again... arrived 10 minutes ahead of schedule!
| Quoting Miner (Reply 4): Many people are talking about the CNF-ATL here but can that route be a money maker over NY, FL? |
I always use the example of ATL-GIG flights. ATL has some interesting ties with Rio (Coca Cola and some others), but this flights takes pax from MEX, LGA, SEA, LAX, MCO, IAH, DFW and others. In the case of a future ATL-CNF flight, i believe "mineiros" will try to move from BOS, LGA, EWR, MIA and others to get a non-stop flight that arrive early at CNF and it's non-stop.
Felipe
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): This is progress if true, but Brazil needs to open up the Northeast entirely from the US, just like they have opened up all Northeast markets from Portugal. |
Brazil is clearly one of the fastest growing Latin American economies, and a more liberal bilateral with the U.S. is sorely needed to help associated trade with this. Both AA and DL represent the largest North American carriers to Brazil, an I'm certain they will jump at any opportunity to expand there.
| Quoting Neo (Thread starter): probably DL will use a 757 to REC. |
Considering the size of REC, a 752 from ATL should do the job, even though I would think JFK would be a better draw for this. So perhaps a 752; JFK/ATL-REC. Not sure if the 752 has the range to do JFK-REC.-
- flydreamliner
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RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting Neo (Reply 8): Incorrect! The confortable range of 752 is 3900nm and ATL-REC is 3766 nm, no problem at all. |
3,766nm allows for no wind, minimal holding pattern time, and starts to reduce the effective payload, decreasing yield. I'd be surprised to see this route on a 757-200... I'm not sure if I know of any longer 757-200 routes.
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting Neo (Reply 8): Incorrect! The confortable range of 752 is 3900nm and ATL-REC is 3766 nm, no problem at all. |
134nm its a pretty short line considering several aspects, as FlyDreamliner mentioned above, not to count the alternate airport which should be NAT or FOR and both are above 130nm.
So this should be operated by a 763, no t a752.
Rgds
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- ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 7): Not sure if the 752 has the range to do JFK-REC. |
It'd certainly be a stretch, but is shorter than ATL-REC.
| Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9): 3,766nm allows for no wind, minimal holding pattern time, and starts to reduce the effective payload, decreasing yield. I'd be surprised to see this route on a 757-200. |
Keep in mind that this is as much a North/South route as it is East/West, which helps significantly. Maybe not enough to make it feasibly profitable; but keep in mind that........
| Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 9): I'm not sure if I know of any longer 757-200 routes. |
........MX's CUN-EZE, often cited as the longest 752 flight flown in routine service, was only about 50nm shorter; and it was done sans winglets.
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 11): It'd certainly be a stretch, but is shorter than ATL-REC. |
It is interesting to note how much difference just a few degrees in longitude can make in the distance of this route! 3,766nm from ATL and 3,622nm from NYC-JFK.
But either way, this one is stretching it for a 752 on any given day.
But the good news if it all reaches fruition is that Brazil is starting to recognize that all U.S. flights can't just come in and out of GIG & GRU. There are others that need service directly into North America's core.
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- 2travel2know
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RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
Maybe DL is to switch DKR for REC on their JNB route?
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13): Maybe DL is to switch DKR for REC on their JNB route? |
I'm not certain if the U.S./Brazil bilateral includes 5th freedom rights. From what I've heard through my sources is that DL would like to put one of the forthcoming 772LRs on ATL-JNB which would then eliminate DKR as a fuel stop, and using it as a stop for their forthcoming service to Kenya etc...
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- worldtraveler
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RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
And despite what everyone here thinks about AA and South America, no government or business community wants to have one airline dominate air service. They would far rather have two carriers fighting for position in a market than to give one carrier a dominant position. Part of the reason the Brazilian government is trying to slow the expansion of new int'l flights is so that the new Varig can get on its feet and become a viable long-haul competitor to TAM. It is not in Brazil's interests to have one carrier control 70% or more of the Brazilian flagged international traffic and it wouldn't be in their interests to allow AA to become any bigger without also giving another US carrier an opportunity to grow as well.
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
What about talks between AA and Belo Horizonte (CNF)?
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18): And despite what everyone here thinks about AA and South America, no government or business community wants to have one airline dominate air service. They would far rather have two carriers fighting for position in a market than to give one carrier a dominant position. Part of the reason the Brazilian government is trying to slow the expansion of new int'l flights is so that the new Varig can get on its feet and become a viable long-haul competitor to TAM. It is not in Brazil's interests to have one carrier control 70% or more of the Brazilian flagged international traffic and it wouldn't be in their interests to allow AA to become any bigger without also giving another US carrier an opportunity to grow as well. |
Very well said... I agree 100%! RG is resuming LHR now in October29th and after that MAD, MEX, and most likely MIA will be resumed next year. Also with JJ/AA codeshare ending in November, and once UA/JJ start their codeshare I see AA losing paxs in BR. Take me for example, I'm flying AA to the West Coast only because it is the only one that offers onward connections from VIX to US (via MIA). I tried DL, CO, but I couldn't buy a ticket from VIX through them, as the interline agreement with GOL is only valid for pax coming from US to Brazil.
Rgs,
Neo
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 13): Maybe DL is to switch DKR for REC on their JNB route? |
This makes some sense although there is always the political pressure and market demand for US service to equatorial Africa and/or the multi-carrier operational experience at DKR for South African service via DKR. Also, 5th Freedom Brazil-South Africa is a question. Whatever, this may be the only way to justify a 763 from ATL to REC, if the report from Brazil is true. Of course, the stopover becomes a mute point once DAL makes the upgrade to equipment with nonstop range and profitable capacity.
Also, one wonders about frequency of service is being proposed for REC. Daily appears to be a stretch. Also, the ex-TWA new winglet 757s would fit an ATL-REC plan better than the standard 757s. Although I do see that those aircraft are starting to appear at JFK, which makes sense re: western Atlantic points. As someone said earlier, JFK-REC would be interesting. The problem for ATL will be, as pointed out, winds aloft, which can or will disrupt especially northwest-bound trips. It can be done but will be a potential challenge.
| Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 16): don't think so. SSA will be AA base and REC will be DL base. |
AAL planning continues to include the 752 (W), 4X SSA 3X REC (daily three-way dips like LPB and VVI are now) and MIA as the US station. There is reluctance for 7X/WK to only SSA or REC based upon traffic projections. Many continue to expect that this is what will be approved at some point and that this number of seats to each Brazilian point of service "right sizes" the service, at least until it is seen how the routes perform. The 752 (W) fits an MIA service pattern, and brings daily operational reliability.
| Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18): Part of the reason the Brazilian government is trying to slow the expansion of new int'l flights is so that the new Varig can get on its feet and become a viable long-haul competitor to TAM. |
Definitely. Also, from the Brazilian perspective, authorizing 7 weekly flights into SSA and REC rather than 14, at least for now, might better suit their purposes.
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- MaverickM11
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RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 2): I'm curious as to if Delta wanted to fly to Recife, or just settled for it. ATL-REC makes no sense. |
If they get a daily allocation, do they have to fly it daily? I guess other carriers would object if they did that. I could see ATL-REC be a shot-in-the-dark (alla some of their recent Caribbean adds) with weekend only service to see if it works.
| Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18): And despite what everyone here thinks about AA and South America, no government or business community wants to have one airline dominate air service. |
Nobody in Latin America or the Caribbean likes AA, but they are the biggest and command a lot of market share.
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- 2travel2know
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RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 21): This makes some sense although there is always the political pressure and market demand for US service to equatorial Africa and/or the multi-carrier operational experience at DKR for South African service via DKR. Also, 5th Freedom Brazil-South Africa is a question |
I often wonder where would most passengers of the ATL-JNB-ATL route would rather prefer a stop enroute? In DKR or REC.
Another thing is that I would not underestimate the possible traffic between the expanded REC catchment area (= N.E. Brazil) and South Africa. If GRU is the most profitable route for SA (if not one of the top 3), How many SA GRU passengers are actually from N.E. Brazil?
| Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 21): Of course, the stopover becomes a mute point once DAL makes the upgrade to equipment with nonstop range and profitable capacity. |
Unless J'burg moves its airport to a location on a lower altitude, aircraft will keep having to deal with altitude, heat and expected range problems when taking off from JNB.
Because those problems, would it come to a point that a one-stop ATL-JNB service could still be more profitable than a non-stop service?
Would DL ever consider one day flying from ATL to CPT via DKR or REC and fly non-stop to JNB? - "2010 South Africa Football World Cup is just around the corner"
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 23): often wonder where would most passengers of the ATL-JNB-ATL route would rather prefer a stop enroute? In DKR or REC. |
If the old 5th freedom Brazil-South Africa rights still exist (i.e., the old PAA 707 flights from the USA that transited Brazil), and/or Brazilian authorities still allowed the US carrier to pick up passengers at REC, then, for sure, I would imagine DAL or someone else would prefer Brazil over equatorial Africa as the stop.
| Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 23): Because those problems, would it come to a point that a one-stop ATL-JNB service could still be more profitable than a non-stop service? |
This is a good point because even the upgraded 777 may require operational stops northwest-bound from JNB. In that case, again, even if there were no 5th freedom rights, REC or SSA are interesting alternatives to DKR. This and other considerations are why, over time and with equipment being available, MIA-CPT/JNB is being seriously considered by AAL as a viable future possibility. It would be interesting to look at SAA's records and see how MIA performed as opposed to the stopover trips to ATL, JFK or IAD, to get some idea of how potential nonstop service might perform into MIA or ATL..
Back to point, I suspect that from the US carrier perspective and the Brazilian long term interest, 14 weekly frequencies will not be flown from either MIA or ATL to SSA and REC under any circumstances.
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18): |
Agree 100%
Brazilian Government now says:
Want to fly to Brazil ? Yes...
If it's Northeast, Rio, Minas, North or South ... approved.
| Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 19): What about talks between AA and Belo Horizonte (CNF)? |
Still talking. Government of Minas today get the confirmation from TP that they will fly LIS-CNF non-stop effective Feb 2008 with 5 weekly A332 service.
| Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22): Nobody in Latin America or the Caribbean likes AA, but they are the biggest and command a lot of market share. |
Agree... others are better in advance bookings, AA take advantage of the lack of offer and excessive demand. And without TAM focusing MIA, will be in a better position in Brazil.
Felipe
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 21): This makes some sense although there is always the political pressure and market demand for US service to equatorial Africa and/or the multi-carrier operational experience at DKR for South African service via DKR. Also, 5th Freedom Brazil-South Africa is a question. Whatever, this may be the only way to justify a 763 from ATL to REC, if the report from Brazil is true. Of course, the stopover becomes a mute point once DAL makes the upgrade to equipment with nonstop range and profitable capacity. |
| Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 23): I often wonder where would most passengers of the ATL-JNB-ATL route would rather prefer a stop enroute? In DKR or REC. Another thing is that I would not underestimate the possible traffic between the expanded REC catchment area (= N.E. Brazil) and South Africa |
Delta is not going to give up the DKR stop, at least not in the immediate future, especially since they just announced service to CPT and NBO via DKR. DKR will essentially be a 'scissor' hub to funnel JFK and ATL passengers onto either the JNB or CPT/NBO flights. The flights run ATL-DKR-JNB and JFK-DKR-NBO/CPT. Basically the JFK passenger can use DKR to continue to JNB while the ATL passenger can transfer in DKR to the NBO/CPT flight.
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting Panamair (Reply 26): DKR will essentially be a 'scissor' hub to funnel JFK and ATL passengers onto either the JNB or CPT/NBO flights. |
Yes, and that makes complete sense with the current 763 fleet. It reminds me of the old 707 and then 747 trips out of JFK that seemed to stop everywhere on the West African coast before heading over to NBO. DAL should revive the name of the original B-314 that flew to Fisherman's Lake, Leopoldville, et. al.: The Capetown Clipper., or the well-trod C-54/DC-4 route from Natal across to Africa that PAA developed from MIA, and was so vital to ATC WWII supply, all the way to India and China.
So any ATL-REC service would be self-sustaining and probably a 752(w).
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 27): It reminds me of the old 707 and then 747 trips out of JFK that seemed to stop everywhere on the West African coast before heading over to NBO |
Oh yes, and Pan Am used ROB as its pseudo-base back then...the JFK-NBO service ranged from a 2-stop to a 4-stop flight depending on day of week.
Speaking of REC, Pan Am was also the last (and maybe only?) US carrier to serve REC...they had anonstop MIA-REC with the A310 back in 1991; when the A310s were sold to DL in late 1991, they switched over to an A300 but that required an intermediate stop so the flight went MIA-CCS-REC.
RE: DL To Announce ATL-REC / AA SSA
| Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 18): And despite what everyone here thinks about AA and South America, no government or business community wants to have one airline dominate air service. They would far rather have two carriers fighting for position in a market than to give one carrier a dominant position. Part of the reason the Brazilian government is trying to slow the expansion of new int'l flights is so that the new Varig can get on its feet and become a viable long-haul competitor to TAM. It is not in Brazil's interests to have one carrier control 70% or more of the Brazilian flagged international traffic and it wouldn't be in their interests to allow AA to become any bigger without also giving another US carrier an opportunity to grow as well. |
With so many viable companies willing and able to offer service, the best route would be for the Brazilian government to get out of the way. However, that is unlikely to happen. Brazil is still ruled by a political elite that is economically backward and ignorant. As strong evidence of this, see the discussion about air safety after the TAM accident at CGH which deteriorated into whether to legislate pitch between seats inside aircraft... "for safety reasons". Just pathetic.
There are several problems with "slowing the expansion of international flights" at a time the economy is growing quickly. The first one is that fares go through the roof. That is actually good for the airlines that have strong presence in the market - they mint money. That makes them stronger to fight off the new entrant later - in this case, the new Varig. That is an interventionist policy which risks backfiring. The second one is that flight restrictions may indeed harm economic growth. Also, government bureaucrats add restrictions that may in the end make some services not viable, as in this case, with flights beyond GIG/GRU tightly framed by regulation of destinations and frequencies.
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