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ODwyerPW
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossibs, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:09 pm

jagraham wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
Arion640 wrote:

Is the 787-10ER actually a real concept or is this something airliners.net has made up?


I think it's something we made up. ANZ buying the -10 has turned into the -10 can do SYD-LHR year round. :-)


The ANZ press releases say that Boeing improved the 787s they are buying; of course a.netters are hotly disputing any improvement viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1422937&p=21388977&hilit=anz+787#p21388977.

I believe the 2.5t reduction in MTOW is real; but that only gets about 1/2 hour of flying time. More like a PIP than an ER type enhancement.


Guilty as charged. I took the liberty of appending the ER. I actually haven't seen any official 10ER studies. While there have been weight reductions and range improvements, I haven't heard anything about HGW nor ER versions. But if they could do it, it would be a nice bit of good news from them.
learning never stops.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossibs, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:17 pm

DL747400 wrote:
The A220 is no longer the aircraft that nobody wants. There is interest and demand now that did not exist prior to the initial DL order. And besides, the reality is that only DL stepped-up with their checkbook.

When DL finally said 'Yes' and placed their initial order for 75 frames, there were no other carriers present in the outer office jockeying for position to be at the head of the line; no one else awaiting their turn at the negotiating table. DL stepped up, sat down and said "Let's do this." They took a very informed, yet significant degree of risk by committing themselves to the CSeries. That play and that positioning is what opened the door for skilled DL negotiators to walk away with very generous volume discounts. If you show up late to the party, you should not act surprised when you discover that the door prizes have been awarded, most of the food is gone and the most attractive dates have been spoken for.

There are already sufficient firm orders in place to keep the A220 production line(s) humming right along for several years. Hopefully DL will continue to place additional top off their orders to extend the production backlog further into the future. The A220-500 cannot get launched soon enough.

I agree with your post. After DL, B6, and Moxy, the A220 has a foundation. With top off AirBaltic and Delta orders, the frame is healthier.

However, there aren't enough airlines to create a good secondary market. So the next big order should do well. DL was just smart in securing engine service.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
tealnz
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:34 pm

Boeing will be under pressure to release details on the higher-weight 787-10 they are developing for NZ. Ostrower is apparently reporting it will have an additional 6t of MTOW, taking it to 260t. NZ themselves have alluded to the development but have only said that the version they are ordering will be able to fly all their current 77E sectors. A 6t MTOW increase giving an additional hour of range is a big development and I iimagine Boeing will need to come up with detail on the technical changes and formally confirm that they are offering the higher-weight 789/78J. No idea whether they will use the ER label.
 
jagraham
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:42 pm

musman9853 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
They've been saying for a while now there won't be an announcement this year. If they do announce, it's next year.


Eventually Boeing will figure out the market will only wait so long . . . if the Ultrafan is ported / scaled back to the A330, Airbus can squeeze the NMA market to a sliver. Sort of like what they did with the A320NEO.


ehh, ultrafan is still a while away. if boeing can leverage black diamond to get the 797 out by 2025, idk how economical it would be for an a330neoneo considering the 787 would be getting it too.


I agree wholeheartedly. But, with the 737 / NSA, Boeing held off and held off. And said they had time and the market would wait. Until AA made that big A32xNEO order. THEN, they did something.

What I am saying is the 797 ATO process is looking more like the 737 / NSA process every day.
 
jagraham
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossibs, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:49 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
jagraham wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

I think it's something we made up. ANZ buying the -10 has turned into the -10 can do SYD-LHR year round. :-)


The ANZ press releases say that Boeing improved the 787s they are buying; of course a.netters are hotly disputing any improvement viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1422937&p=21388977&hilit=anz+787#p21388977.

I believe the 2.5t reduction in MTOW is real; but that only gets about 1/2 hour of flying time. More like a PIP than an ER type enhancement.


Guilty as charged. I took the liberty of appending the ER. I actually haven't seen any official 10ER studies. While there have been weight reductions and range improvements, I haven't heard anything about HGW nor ER versions. But if they could do it, it would be a nice bit of good news from them.


Now others have pulled back the paywall curtain a little bit and said the improvement which got the NZ business is a 6t improvement to 260t for the 787-9 and 10. More than an hour of extra flying even before any OEW changes. Although a 2.5t OEW reduction would be reduced by about 0.5t to accommodate the extra MTOW. So a 6400 nm 320 seat 787-10 becomes a 7000+ nm 787-10. The 787-9 goes to over 8000 nm. And there may not be an OEW related fuel penalty if Boeing is implementing OEW reductions at the same time. Even if they are less than 2.5t.
 
musman9853
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:14 pm

jagraham wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
jagraham wrote:

Eventually Boeing will figure out the market will only wait so long . . . if the Ultrafan is ported / scaled back to the A330, Airbus can squeeze the NMA market to a sliver. Sort of like what they did with the A320NEO.


ehh, ultrafan is still a while away. if boeing can leverage black diamond to get the 797 out by 2025, idk how economical it would be for an a330neoneo considering the 787 would be getting it too.


I agree wholeheartedly. But, with the 737 / NSA, Boeing held off and held off. And said they had time and the market would wait. Until AA made that big A32xNEO order. THEN, they did something.

What I am saying is the 797 ATO process is looking more like the 737 / NSA process every day.


i agree with you, but the reporting that ato would already have been given but for the max crisis I think its fair to say the program is proceeding. maybe not at the pace they initially wanted, but all indicators are that the program is moving ahead, however tentative.
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musman9853
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossibs, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:18 pm

jagraham wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
jagraham wrote:

The ANZ press releases say that Boeing improved the 787s they are buying; of course a.netters are hotly disputing any improvement https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p21388977.

I believe the 2.5t reduction in MTOW is real; but that only gets about 1/2 hour of flying time. More like a PIP than an ER type enhancement.


Guilty as charged. I took the liberty of appending the ER. I actually haven't seen any official 10ER studies. While there have been weight reductions and range improvements, I haven't heard anything about HGW nor ER versions. But if they could do it, it would be a nice bit of good news from them.


Now others have pulled back the paywall curtain a little bit and said the improvement which got the NZ business is a 6t improvement to 260t for the 787-9 and 10. More than an hour of extra flying even before any OEW changes. Although a 2.5t OEW reduction would be reduced by about 0.5t to accommodate the extra MTOW. So a 6400 nm 320 seat 787-10 becomes a 7000+ nm 787-10. The 787-9 goes to over 8000 nm. And there may not be an OEW related fuel penalty if Boeing is implementing OEW reductions at the same time. Even if they are less than 2.5t.


also keep in mind that air nz is also apparently making a less dense config too, with like 235ish seats similar to the per-lhr birds
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Devilfish
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:21 pm

Polot wrote:
Changing that exit to larger full size type As is already an option for the entire A330 family. It is how the A333 gets to 440 pax (Cebu’s seat 436) as by default that variant also has smaller type 1 exits behind the wings.

mxaxai wrote:
The only aircraft that could profit from an added exit are the 787-10 and A350-1000. And even those only in a pure economy configuration. Not sure if the investment is worth it.

It seems to me that the rumored 6T MTOW increase and ~2T OEW decrease for an extra hour of flying could get the 78J at least up to the PNW at near 5J's desired capacity. That strikes me as an easier path which could offset a 78J's supposed CAPEX disadvantage, so why the need to downplay it :?:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:50 pm

tealnz wrote:
Boeing will be under pressure to release details on the higher-weight 787-10 they are developing for NZ. Ostrower is apparently reporting it will have an additional 6t of MTOW, taking it to 260t. NZ themselves have alluded to the development but have only said that the version they are ordering will be able to fly all their current 77E sectors. A 6t MTOW increase giving an additional hour of range is a big development and I iimagine Boeing will need to come up with detail on the technical changes and formally confirm that they are offering the higher-weight 789/78J. No idea whether they will use the ER label.



They said similar routes to the 77E not all, I don’t no that the -10 will do IAH..

musman9853 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:

Guilty as charged. I took the liberty of appending the ER. I actually haven't seen any official 10ER studies. While there have been weight reductions and range improvements, I haven't heard anything about HGW nor ER versions. But if they could do it, it would be a nice bit of good news from them.


Now others have pulled back the paywall curtain a little bit and said the improvement which got the NZ business is a 6t improvement to 260t for the 787-9 and 10. More than an hour of extra flying even before any OEW changes. Although a 2.5t OEW reduction would be reduced by about 0.5t to accommodate the extra MTOW. So a 6400 nm 320 seat 787-10 becomes a 7000+ nm 787-10. The 787-9 goes to over 8000 nm. And there may not be an OEW related fuel penalty if Boeing is implementing OEW reductions at the same time. Even if they are less than 2.5t.


also keep in mind that air nz is also apparently making a less dense config too, with like 235ish seats similar to the per-lhr birds


NZ will be reconfiguring some 789s for ULH use though a timeline wasn’t given, these 78Js will be used most likely into Asia initially in a fairly standard configuration, likely 310-330 seat range..
 
mxaxai
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:13 pm

Devilfish wrote:
Polot wrote:
Changing that exit to larger full size type As is already an option for the entire A330 family. It is how the A333 gets to 440 pax (Cebu’s seat 436) as by default that variant also has smaller type 1 exits behind the wings.

mxaxai wrote:
The only aircraft that could profit from an added exit are the 787-10 and A350-1000. And even those only in a pure economy configuration. Not sure if the investment is worth it.

It seems to me that the rumored 6T MTOW increase and ~2T OEW decrease for an extra hour of flying could get the 78J at least up to the PNW at near 5J's desired capacity. That strikes me as an easier path which could offset a 78J's supposed CAPEX disadvantage, so why the need to downplay it :?:

I can't quite find the connection between the quotes and your post, no offense. Care to elaborate? Are you saying that the 78J should or shouldn't get an exit upgrade?
 
tphuang
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossibs, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:26 pm

lightsaber wrote:
DL747400 wrote:
The A220 is no longer the aircraft that nobody wants. There is interest and demand now that did not exist prior to the initial DL order. And besides, the reality is that only DL stepped-up with their checkbook.

When DL finally said 'Yes' and placed their initial order for 75 frames, there were no other carriers present in the outer office jockeying for position to be at the head of the line; no one else awaiting their turn at the negotiating table. DL stepped up, sat down and said "Let's do this." They took a very informed, yet significant degree of risk by committing themselves to the CSeries. That play and that positioning is what opened the door for skilled DL negotiators to walk away with very generous volume discounts. If you show up late to the party, you should not act surprised when you discover that the door prizes have been awarded, most of the food is gone and the most attractive dates have been spoken for.

There are already sufficient firm orders in place to keep the A220 production line(s) humming right along for several years. Hopefully DL will continue to place additional top off their orders to extend the production backlog further into the future. The A220-500 cannot get launched soon enough.

I agree with your post. After DL, B6, and Moxy, the A220 has a foundation. With top off AirBaltic and Delta orders, the frame is healthier.

However, there aren't enough airlines to create a good secondary market. So the next big order should do well. DL was just smart in securing engine service.

Lightsaber

I would imagine the options have to be at really great prices too.

But as you said, a220 is not exactly out of the woods. They still need a lot more clients at this point so the prices will still be good for someone like Spirit.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:56 pm

tealnz wrote:
No idea whether they will use the ER label.

In the past, Boeing's usually reserved appending "-ER" onto models that gain both weight and fuel capacity increases.

Definitely haven't found anything indicating that a 789 or 78X would receive any tankage beyond what's already available, just the ability to fill more of the extant volume.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tealnz
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:11 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Boeing will be under pressure to release details on the higher-weight 787-10 they are developing for NZ. Ostrower is apparently reporting it will have an additional 6t of MTOW, taking it to 260t. NZ themselves have alluded to the development but have only said that the version they are ordering will be able to fly all their current 77E sectors. A 6t MTOW increase giving an additional hour of range is a big development and I iimagine Boeing will need to come up with detail on the technical changes and formally confirm that they are offering the higher-weight 789/78J. No idea whether they will use the ER label.

They said similar routes to the 77E not all, I don’t no that the -10 will do


Yes I’ll also be interested to know the answer to that question. My point is that I imagine Boeing will be under pressure to release detail on the 260t 789/78J capabilities and how they were achieved at the Paris show. Against the background of their MAX troubles they’ll be keen to have some good news to report and this one sounds pretty solid. It would be even more interesting to hear why they left it until now but that might be asking too much...
 
tealnz
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:15 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
tealnz wrote:
No idea whether they will use the ER label.

In the past, Boeing's usually reserved appending "-ER" onto models that gain both weight and fuel capacity increases.

Definitely haven't found anything indicating that a 789 or 78X would receive any tankage beyond what's already available, just the ability to fill more of the extant volume.

So the question becomes: in NZ configuration will the 78J on routes between US west coast and New Zealand be constrained by fuel volume? Or by MTOW? Even assuming no change in tankage I’m guessing the latter.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:22 pm

And here, I'll stir the pot a bit.... :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

So the lore has long been that DL finds the 788 and 789 too heavy to replace its 767s but too small for the 77E market; the 78X decently sized by too short ranged.

Well last December, Justin Hale and Emily Sylvester (Boeing's 787 product marketing manager and regional director of 787 marketing, respectively) had a nice lil' powwow with DL, where the topic at hand was (among other things) enhancements in the 78X.... to which I'm told by someone who may or may not have been in the room, the response by DL was that a 78X with similar range to their 77Es at current payload or better, would be "good fit for our network" and "quite the compelling prospect."

And now, we hear the first public rumblings of a significant weight adjustment, in both directions, for the 78X.

So while I'm sure this will be met with a chorus of "give it up," and "you must hate A330NEOs/A350s," and any other litany of nonsense by people who can't understand context; all I'm saying here is that the timeline of events is interesting, and it will be really interesting to see what this airline does.......................

Image
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:30 pm

mxaxai wrote:
I can't quite find the connection between the quotes and your post, no offense. Care to elaborate? Are you saying that the 78J should or shouldn't get an exit upgrade?

Sorry, the 'downplay' comment was alluding to the OEM. I was only curious that they're not advertising the MTOW improvement as a compromise solution to the payload/range issue. That combined with the exit mods could be a potent incentive, even if seemingly prohibitive, for 5J. Are both reserved for big orders :?:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PixelPilot
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:09 am

LAX772LR wrote:
And here, I'll stir the pot a bit.... :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

So the lore has long been that DL finds the 788 and 789 too heavy to replace its 767s but too small for the 77E market; the 78X decently sized by too short ranged.

Well last December, Justin Hale and Emily Sylvester (Boeing's 787 product marketing manager and regional director of 787 marketing, respectively) had a nice lil' powwow with DL, where the topic at hand was (among other things) enhancements in the 78X.... to which I'm told by someone who may or may not have been in the room, the response by DL was that a 78X with similar range to their 77Es at current payload or better, would be "good fit for our network" and "quite the compelling prospect."

And now, we hear the first public rumblings of a significant weight adjustment, in both directions, for the 78X.

So while I'm sure this will be met with a chorus of "give it up," and "you must hate A330NEOs/A350s," and any other litany of nonsense by people who can't understand context; all I'm saying here is that the timeline of events is interesting, and it will be really interesting to see what this airline does.......................

Image


Some heads on a.net would EXPLODE :laughing:
 
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Slash787
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:52 am

What about Saudia ordering B777X or even the A330neo?
 
ShamrockBoi330
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:16 am

IAG finally order a330neos for Level plus some at same time for Aer Lingus, a220s for the wider group, more 321LR or 321XLR for Aer Lingus or Level? or are they done on their shopping spree for. now? for Level and Aer Lingus it seems to come in dribs and drabs!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:24 am

mxaxai wrote:
In any case, I doubt that it's worth the weight and cost to add another door on the A330. Going from 30" to 29" pitch could gain you another row, maybe two.


What if you start peeling out the galleys? Does Cebu Pacific already have underfloor galleys? At such a configuration, it won't be flying long routes anyway, so catering is less relevant.

AFAIK, the latest ULCC tendency is for 18 inch seats, as on the 236 seat A321s being adopted by the likes of Wizz Air, Air Asia and EasyJet. Not fun, but you get what you pay for...
 
 
TheF15Ace
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:15 am

There was word earlier that SriLankan might take up 4 A330neos instead of the 4 A350s they had yet to cancel.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... or-a330neo

Financial difficulties exacerbated by a drop in tourism due to terrorism might make this less likely but I thought I'd drop this in as a possibility of something that can be announced at PAS.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:37 am

VSMUT wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
In any case, I doubt that it's worth the weight and cost to add another door on the A330. Going from 30" to 29" pitch could gain you another row, maybe two.


What if you start peeling out the galleys? Does Cebu Pacific already have underfloor galleys? At such a configuration, it won't be flying long routes anyway, so catering is less relevant.

AFAIK, the latest ULCC tendency is for 18 inch seats, as on the 236 seat A321s being adopted by the likes of Wizz Air, Air Asia and EasyJet. Not fun, but you get what you pay for...

A quick look on Seatguru shows that 5J's A330 has a very small galley in the front and another behind the rear doors. There are some lavatories at exit 3, those could be located downstairs I suppose. But you need to account for the floor space of the stairs.
So I guess you could add 2-3 rows at 28" vs 1-2 rows at 29". Another half row by shrinking or relocating galleys and lavatories. The seat count should be around 460 - 470, compared to 436 today. A noticeable gain, sure, but there's only a single customer interested. Not even AirAsia X uses such a dense configuration.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:19 am

tealnz wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
tealnz wrote:
No idea whether they will use the ER label.

In the past, Boeing's usually reserved appending "-ER" onto models that gain both weight and fuel capacity increases.

in NZ configuration will the 78J on routes between US west coast and New Zealand be constrained by fuel volume?

I can't answer that question with actual numbers, though I find it extremely doubtful that a 78X would be FVL on a route like AKL-LAX, when the 789 (which shares the same 126.3K litre tankage) can do LAX-SIN, a route 2,266mi longer, without being volume limited.


PixelPilot wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
all I'm saying here is that the timeline of events is interesting, and it will be really interesting to see what this airline does.....

Some heads on a.net would EXPLODE :laughing:

All the more reason! :devil:
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tealnz
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:36 am

LAX772LR wrote:
tealnz wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
In the past, Boeing's usually reserved appending "-ER" onto models that gain both weight and fuel capacity increases.

in NZ configuration will the 78J on routes between US west coast and New Zealand be constrained by fuel volume?

I can't answer that question with actual numbers, though I find it extremely doubtful that a 78X would be FVL on a route like AKL-LAX, when the 789 (which shares the same 126.3K litre tankage) can do LAX-SIN, a route 2,266mi longer, without being volume limited.


:checkmark:
 
VSMUT
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:50 am

mxaxai wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
In any case, I doubt that it's worth the weight and cost to add another door on the A330. Going from 30" to 29" pitch could gain you another row, maybe two.


What if you start peeling out the galleys? Does Cebu Pacific already have underfloor galleys? At such a configuration, it won't be flying long routes anyway, so catering is less relevant.

AFAIK, the latest ULCC tendency is for 18 inch seats, as on the 236 seat A321s being adopted by the likes of Wizz Air, Air Asia and EasyJet. Not fun, but you get what you pay for...

A quick look on Seatguru shows that 5J's A330 has a very small galley in the front and another behind the rear doors. There are some lavatories at exit 3, those could be located downstairs I suppose. But you need to account for the floor space of the stairs.
So I guess you could add 2-3 rows at 28" vs 1-2 rows at 29". Another half row by shrinking or relocating galleys and lavatories. The seat count should be around 460 - 470, compared to 436 today. A noticeable gain, sure, but there's only a single customer interested. Not even AirAsia X uses such a dense configuration.


It hasn't been offered yet (at least not publically), so we don't know the interest. There's a glut of old regional A330s and 777s coming up for replacement in Asia. Congestion is only getting worse in the region, and China in particular. If the CASM can be lowered enough and it proves somewhat competitive with the A321neo, more ULCCs could jump onto the wagon in order to gain market share in congested airports. IndiGo, Lion Air? The latter already has 10 on order, do know what configuration they will have?
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:35 pm

I bet that Spirit orders the A220 or the E2:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonl ... sion%3famp
What's the deal with airplane food?
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:37 pm

ShamrockBoi330 wrote:
321XLR for Aer Lingus or Level? or are they done on their shopping spree for now?

We shall see at PAS 2019. It seems too much of a coincidence that the XLR's projected 2023-2024 EIS window is just a year ahead of the NMA's forecast availability..... :eyebrow: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... us-458630/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ericm2031
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:10 am

Looks like EK is still planning on the 78J order...https://simpleflying.com/emirates-787-10-order-staying/
 
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IslandRob
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:01 am

ericm2031 wrote:
Looks like EK is still planning on the 78J order...https://simpleflying.com/emirates-787-10-order-staying/


Huge news, especially if true. Might explain why EK has been so inscrutable about the 787-10 order of late. Thanks. -ir
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Momo1435
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:24 am

ericm2031 wrote:
Looks like EK is still planning on the 78J order...https://simpleflying.com/emirates-787-10-order-staying/

The title of the article says 787-10 but the article itself points more in the direction of the smaller versions of the 787. They might be interested in the recent rumored improvements of the 787 which came with the Air NZ order.
 
Jefford717
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:09 am

I think this recent improve 787-10 rumors is truly incredible if true. The current 787-10 has identical payload-range to that of 268t A359. Improving -10 could be a huge sale since it could pretty much do most of A359 missions (keeping in mind that most plane don’t take off at MTOW.) while being lighter which favors short to mid range missions while carrying about 10-30 passengers more (keep in mind that between door 1 and door 4 the -10 is about 10 ft longer, the a350 is wider but since all but 1 operator operates the 787 at 9 abreast economy this favors the 787 in terms of operating economics).

Lastly, I think Boeing is trying to convince United to drop their 45 A359 in favor of the -10 since United selected the A359 due to the fact that the -10 lacks the range that they need, but this new variant could pretty much do what the A359 can do.
 
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LaunchDetected
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:01 am

Can't wait to see MoU announced as "orders" as it's now the norm to announce the same deal 3 times.
Caravelle lover
 
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keesje
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:44 am

Jefford717 wrote:
I think this recent improve 787-10 rumors is truly incredible if true. The current 787-10 has identical payload-range to that of 268t A359. Improving -10 could be a huge sale since it could pretty much do most of A359 missions (keeping in mind that most plane don’t take off at MTOW.) while being lighter which favors short to mid range missions while carrying about 10-30 passengers more (keep in mind that between door 1 and door 4 the -10 is about 10 ft longer, the a350 is wider but since all but 1 operator operates the 787 at 9 abreast economy this favors the 787 in terms of operating economics).

Lastly, I think Boeing is trying to convince United to drop their 45 A359 in favor of the -10 since United selected the A359 due to the fact that the -10 lacks the range that they need, but this new variant could pretty much do what the A359 can do.


Did the 787-10 gain 1300NM range?

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Babyshark
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:07 am

LAX772LR wrote:
And here, I'll stir the pot a bit.... :stirthepot: :stirthepot:

So the lore has long been that DL finds the 788 and 789 too heavy to replace its 767s but too small for the 77E market; the 78X decently sized by too short ranged.

Well last December, Justin Hale and Emily Sylvester (Boeing's 787 product marketing manager and regional director of 787 marketing, respectively) had a nice lil' powwow with DL, where the topic at hand was (among other things) enhancements in the 78X.... to which I'm told by someone who may or may not have been in the room, the response by DL was that a 78X with similar range to their 77Es at current payload or better, would be "good fit for our network" and "quite the compelling prospect."

And now, we hear the first public rumblings of a significant weight adjustment, in both directions, for the 78X.

So while I'm sure this will be met with a chorus of "give it up," and "you must hate A330NEOs/A350s," and any other litany of nonsense by people who can't understand context; all I'm saying here is that the timeline of events is interesting, and it will be really interesting to see what this airline does.......................

Image


Yeah! More aircraft types at delta. So we can have 787, 350, 330, 763, 764, 777. Hopefully we can acquire some used 380s and 346s just to make sure we operate everything.

That said, even if the 787 sucked in every way possible for delta i could still see them telling Boeing and Airbus they loved the 787 and are thinking about it for their next order... unless...
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:11 am

keesje wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
I think this recent improve 787-10 rumors is truly incredible if true. The current 787-10 has identical payload-range to that of 268t A359. Improving -10 could be a huge sale since it could pretty much do most of A359 missions (keeping in mind that most plane don’t take off at MTOW.) while being lighter which favors short to mid range missions while carrying about 10-30 passengers more (keep in mind that between door 1 and door 4 the -10 is about 10 ft longer, the a350 is wider but since all but 1 operator operates the 787 at 9 abreast economy this favors the 787 in terms of operating economics).

Lastly, I think Boeing is trying to convince United to drop their 45 A359 in favor of the -10 since United selected the A359 due to the fact that the -10 lacks the range that they need, but this new variant could pretty much do what the A359 can do.


Did the 787-10 gain 1300NM range?


Half of it would be more realistic, but that would still be pretty good. It should indeed make the 787-10 a a more viable 77E replacement, although I expect UA to operate both A359 and 787-10. For an airline like KL it would indeed make the A359 not necessary (perhaps this is why they finally seem to accept all the A359s going to AF), and I can see it would make it attractive for EK again.

It’s indeed funny to see some people thinking an improvement in one aircraft will make airlines cancel firm orders for its competitor. Doesn’t work that way.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
Jefford717
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:24 am

keesje wrote:
Jefford717 wrote:
I think this recent improve 787-10 rumors is truly incredible if true. The current 787-10 has identical payload-range to that of 268t A359. Improving -10 could be a huge sale since it could pretty much do most of A359 missions (keeping in mind that most plane don’t take off at MTOW.) while being lighter which favors short to mid range missions while carrying about 10-30 passengers more (keep in mind that between door 1 and door 4 the -10 is about 10 ft longer, the a350 is wider but since all but 1 operator operates the 787 at 9 abreast economy this favors the 787 in terms of operating economics).

Lastly, I think Boeing is trying to convince United to drop their 45 A359 in favor of the -10 since United selected the A359 due to the fact that the -10 lacks the range that they need, but this new variant could pretty much do what the A359 can do.


Did the 787-10 gain 1300NM range?

Image

Maybe. Since everything is just a rumor at this stage. Let’s run some quick math.

Rumored Improvement by 2022
1. 2.5t reduction of empty weight
2. MTOW increases from 254.5t to 260t
3. probably an engine PIP

Those equals to about 2 hours of additional flight time. Current longest 787-10 flight is TLV-EWR (5,582 NM GC distance) which clocks in at about 12 hours. 787 typical cruising speed is about 490kn which equals to about 980NM for 2 hours from the improvement. It is widely believed by “a-netters” that the 787 burns about 5.4-5.6t/hour on average. Since the -10 can carry about 10-30 passengers when compared to A359, blocking those additional seat could add additional 300NM of range.

To answer your question, based on those rumored improvements and realistic assumptions, the 2022 spec 787-10 can gain 1,300NM of range.
 
tealnz
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:49 pm

The MTOW increase gives you less than an hour. Do we have solid info on a GEnX PIP? And 2.5t off MEW sounds a brave assumption: Boeing had two goes (developing the 789 and then the -10) at engineering improvements to take out weight. I’d be surprised if there was much more to be had. Can you cite specifics? I think the safest assumption for now is about an hour of extra range.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:56 pm

I expect quite a few A320neo family orders. We will also see A330neo orders, some new, but most confirmations of MoU.

Boeing will sell 787, but otherwise be in stasis.
 
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:15 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Well last December, Justin Hale and Emily Sylvester (Boeing's 787 product marketing manager and regional director of 787 marketing, respectively) had a nice lil' powwow with DL, where the topic at hand was (among other things) enhancements in the 78X.... to which I'm told by someone who may or may not have been in the room, the response by DL was that a 78X with similar range to their 77Es at current payload or better, would be "good fit for our network" and "quite the compelling prospect."

And now, we hear the first public rumblings of a significant weight adjustment, in both directions, for the 78X.


That's an interesting line of thinking but DL would be daft to give up even more fleet commonality to replace just eight 777ERs. Now, if they're looking at medium-long range plans and operating ~fifty 788/789/78X, that might be interesting. But I just don't see how the fleet numbers work. The order for 35 339s to replace 767-300s and provide a little expansion really is a block for 787s at DL.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:36 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
That's an interesting line of thinking but DL would be daft to give up even more fleet commonality to replace just eight 777ERs. Now, if they're looking at medium-long range plans and operating ~fifty 788/789/78X, that might be interesting. But I just don't see how the fleet numbers work. The order for 35 339s to replace 767-300s and provide a little expansion really is a block for 787s at DL.


It's now 45 x A339
 
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Polot
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:45 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
That's an interesting line of thinking but DL would be daft to give up even more fleet commonality to replace just eight 777ERs. Now, if they're looking at medium-long range plans and operating ~fifty 788/789/78X, that might be interesting. But I just don't see how the fleet numbers work. The order for 35 339s to replace 767-300s and provide a little expansion really is a block for 787s at DL.


It's now 45 x A339

Unless you know something we don’t it is 35x A339. 25 from the original order plus 10 from last year.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:46 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
the response by DL was that a 78X with similar range to their 77Es at current payload or better, would be "good fit for our network" and "quite the compelling prospect."

That's an interesting line of thinking but DL would be daft to give up even more fleet commonality

Not aimed at you personally, but in general:
what's even MORE daft, is just how caught-up this site can sometimes get on "commonality."

History has shown us time again, that if you square of "optimal profitability" against "optimal commonality" at a large airline, the former will win nearly every time.

We're talking about an airline with nearly 1000 aircraft in its ranks, and in-house MRO for many of them-- it's quite plausible that an eclectic mix, can allow it to tap revenue streams that a more conventional mix could not (to the same extent/efficiency). And if the additional revenue from such an allotment is greater than the cost reduction offered by commonality, they'll go for it.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
tzadik
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:27 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
I bet that Spirit orders the A220 or the E2:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonl ... sion%3famp



It's not going to be the E2, we now know that much after Ted Christie said it's been eliminated from consideration.
 
UPNYGuy
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:09 am

tzadik wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
I bet that Spirit orders the A220 or the E2:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonl ... sion%3famp



It's not going to be the E2, we now know that much after Ted Christie said it's been eliminated from consideration.


The E2 is basically a dead stick now, especially if this order goes (as many think it will) A220.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gn-458671/
 
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Jouhou
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:05 am

UPNYGuy wrote:
tzadik wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
I bet that Spirit orders the A220 or the E2:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ainonl ... sion%3famp



It's not going to be the E2, we now know that much after Ted Christie said it's been eliminated from consideration.


The E2 is basically a dead stick now, especially if this order goes (as many think it will) A220.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gn-458671/


...thats... not a good look for the E2 when it gets displaced by a currently highly scrutinized aircraft (max) like that.
 
Max Q
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:28 am

If this MTOW boost is genuine I wonder if it will be an option for earlier airframes
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:21 am

Jouhou wrote:
UPNYGuy wrote:
tzadik wrote:


It's not going to be the E2, we now know that much after Ted Christie said it's been eliminated from consideration.


The E2 is basically a dead stick now, especially if this order goes (as many think it will) A220.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gn-458671/


...thats... not a good look for the E2 when it gets displaced by a currently highly scrutinized aircraft (max) like that.

In such a tough order year, an order for 100+ is getting the love. But this a post Paris order. :(

I personally preferred it when I thought it was A220 vs. E2-195. Now NEO, MAX, A220. Boeing needs the press. I could see a good enough deal to go MAX. Bummer... (I'm a Pratt fan).

Lightsaber
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PlanesNTrains
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:49 am

lightsaber wrote:
Jouhou wrote:
UPNYGuy wrote:

The E2 is basically a dead stick now, especially if this order goes (as many think it will) A220.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gn-458671/


...thats... not a good look for the E2 when it gets displaced by a currently highly scrutinized aircraft (max) like that.

In such a tough order year, an order for 100+ is getting the love. But this a post Paris order. :(

I personally preferred it when I thought it was A220 vs. E2-195. Now NEO, MAX, A220. Boeing needs the press. I could see a good enough deal to go MAX. Bummer... (I'm a Pratt fan).

Lightsaber


Sounds like it’s time for UA to claim their White Knight discount and order a gaggle of E2’s.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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keesje
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Re: Paris Airshow 2019, Expectations, Gossip, Announcements

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:06 pm

50 Years Airbus, maybe a good excuse to send some metal from TLS for a fly over..

No doubt the french will try to have the Patrouille de France in, without pre-informing the Germans, Spanish, Brits, Canadians etc.. :wink2:

Image

https://youtu.be/-Q504SDGNK8
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