UA857
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Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:25 am

Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?
 
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Polot
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:29 am

Because EWR/NYC has more TPAC traffic.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:30 am

NYC has way more TPAC traffic than IAH. This goes for premium O&D, not connections via an ill-placed (too far south) IAH hub.
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:33 am

CO had 3 hubs. EWR, IAH, and CLE. (they dehubbed DEN in 1993). Of the three, EWR was the most profitable, sitting in the largest O&D market in the world and there wasn't much competition from US carriers to Asia from NYC. NW operated a single daily flight from JFK to NRT. AA had service from JFK to NRT (and swapped it for HND later on). No US carrier was flying to HKG nonstop, or to mainland China (PEK, PVG). CO's 777-200ERs were new at the time, had high capacity GE90 engines and good range that could make these flights viable. Fare pricing was also likely a factor. Easier to charge a premium out of NYC where demand is there, versus depending on connecting traffic to feed a bank of flights out of IAH (which only had NRT as a nonstop to Asia on CO metal).
 
Cointrin330
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:34 am

Worth noting as well that as soon as CO launched EWR-HKG, UA added JFK-HKG on a 747-400. It did not last.
 
jfk777
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:43 am

What United has in Newark they acquired from Continental which also has nonstops to India from EWR. United has similar flights from Chicago to Asia, Houston is too far south and is competing against US's hubs at SFO, ORD and EWR for such flights. Houston does have UA flights to NRT plus Star Alliance flights by EVA, ANA and Air China so UA would be competing against other Star airlines. The main reason UA doesn't fly to the PRC from IAH is all the service they have from their other hubs to Peking and Shanghai.
 
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STT757
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:44 am

Just to add what’s already been mentioned:

NYC has way more traffic to Asia, especially premium traffic.

CO was pioneering the Polar routes which went North and over the Pole to reach Asia, making EWR an ideal location to connect East coast traffic to Asia.

CO 772ERs had the performance for EWR- Asia, but IAH would have been longer and been more restricted. IAH-NRT works, not sure about IAH-HKG.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
jfk777
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 11:48 am

Houstonians are wondering what AA has in DFW is not at IAH, but AA LAX operation is strong but not as powerful as UA's SFO hub. AA hub in Chicago couldn't make the PRC work but it could from their fortress DFW hub so its really an issue of where an airline's fortress hub is and where they have the mass to make it work plus traffic rights & slots being available. United has determined using their slots in China from SFO, ORD and EWR makes more sense to them then from Houston.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:30 pm

Two reasons:

1) More demand
2) Better geographic location.
Next flight: IAH-GUA-IAH on UA in Y.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 12:34 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Houstonians are wondering what AA has in DFW is not at IAH, but AA LAX operation is strong but not as powerful as UA's SFO hub. AA hub in Chicago couldn't make the PRC work but it could from their fortress DFW hub so its really an issue of where an airline's fortress hub is and where they have the mass to make it work plus traffic rights & slots being available. United has determined using their slots in China from SFO, ORD and EWR makes more sense to them then from Houston.


We really aren’t wondering why. Those of us in Houston who are familiar with the airline industry here know why UA doesn’t fly more places in Asia. The reason you’ll never see SFO-EZE is the same why we won’t see IAH-HKG. Different hubs serve different roles.
Next flight: IAH-GUA-IAH on UA in Y.
 
YoungDon
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 2:02 pm

jfk777 wrote:
Houstonians are wondering what AA has in DFW is not at IAH, but AA LAX operation is strong but not as powerful as UA's SFO hub. AA hub in Chicago couldn't make the PRC work but it could from their fortress DFW hub so its really an issue of where an airline's fortress hub is and where they have the mass to make it work plus traffic rights & slots being available. United has determined using their slots in China from SFO, ORD and EWR makes more sense to them then from Houston.


Not sure what AA in DFW has to do with UA in IAH. Two completely different hubs that occupy different places within each airline's network as you said. The question is about EWR and even in CO's hub structure, EWR made more sense to do TPAC for obvious reasons. IAH is a much smaller TPAC market than the NYC area and the difference was even bigger back then.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 2:37 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
Worth noting as well that as soon as CO launched EWR-HKG, UA added JFK-HKG on a 747-400. It did not last.


It was CO launching EWR-HKG, followed quickly by CX switching 1 of their JFK-YVR-HKG to non-stop JFK-HKG (On a A343 IIRC), then UA jumped on the route as a response also. UA's 744 is weight-restricted, though, and thus, it's either less pax or less cargo - making profitability dropped. UA dropped JFK-HKG before 9/11 (and for obvious reason, never restarted it after 9/11), which is telling how bad the route is doing.

Otherwise, like other said, EWR simply has a lot more O&D and demand. If anything, the Chinese community in Houston only grew to the size it's right now within this decade (I know...my family moved to Houston in 1998, and literally saw Bellaire Blvd grew from 2-3 small supermarkets to numerous large strip malls and the abundance of restaurants - the choices were between like maybe 10 places back in 1998 instead of 100+ :)). But even with Houston's growth in terms of East Asian population (thus increased of both VFR and economic ties), it's still only a fraction of demands from NYC or LA or SF.
 
kaitak
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 2:38 pm

And don't forget that, back in the late 1980s, a charming gentleman by the name of Frank Lorenzo was in control of Continental; it took over People Express, which by then had started an EWR-LGW service with 747s and this was continued by CO, which also operated LGW-DEN (and for a time, LGW-MIA). With a well established PE hub (if hub is the right name for a PE base), CO just built on it. With Lorenzo in charge, CO had a less than impressive reputation, but once he was removed (I think the FAA banned him from being an airline CEO, if not from the industry altogether), things began to get better. A former Boeing executive, Gordon Bethune took over and under him, CO went "from worst to first" and gradually built up that EWR t/a operation, using 757s, 764s and of course, 777s.
 
sw733
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 2:39 pm

NYC Metro Statistical Area: 19.979 million people (2018 Estimate). The number of Asian-Americans in this area is greater that Metro LA and Metro San Francisco combined.

Houston Metro Statistical Area: 6.997 million people (2018 Estimate)

That honestly is 95% of the story, right there.
 
tpaewr
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 4:21 pm

The same reason EWR had 30+ Transatlantic routes.

NYC

On top of that rich O&D traffic, EWR enjoys being both a domestic and intl hub, unlike the LGA/JFK split that hobbles other attempts at a NYC hub.
 
csgnyc
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:25 pm

On top of everything else, IAH offers little to no advantage over EWR for connections. While IAH is a good deal more west than EWR, EWR is a good deal more north than IAH (for polar route purposes this is important.). So, EWR-NRT (6732 mi) is less than 100 miles longer than IAH-NRT (6643 mi). This means that for cities as far south as CLT, CLT-EWR-NRT requires fewer miles than CLT-IAH-NRT.
 
WorldFlier
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:39 pm

csgnyc wrote:
On top of everything else, IAH offers little to no advantage over EWR for connections. While IAH is a good deal more west than EWR, EWR is a good deal more north than IAH (for polar route purposes this is important.). So, EWR-NRT (6732 mi) is less than 100 miles longer than IAH-NRT (6643 mi). This means that for cities as far south as CLT, CLT-EWR-NRT requires fewer miles than CLT-IAH-NRT.


Or put into GCMAP:

You have to go as far south as RSW and as far West as Seoul to make Houston equal in distance to Newark to connect to Asia.

Image

Newark wins distance-wise everything North of central Florida and for any Asian cities west of Seoul, so basically everything.
 
hereandthere41
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 5:56 pm

IAH is good for Mexico and Latin America, as well as some major trunk routes to Europe. A few years ago, UA tried a 2nd daily IAH-NRT. It didn't last long. IAH was the queen bee at CO with only 3 hubs. Its role has changed within the new United with 7 diverse hubs all around the country.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 6:46 pm

hereandthere41 wrote:
IAH is good for Mexico and Latin America, as well as some major trunk routes to Europe. A few years ago, UA tried a 2nd daily IAH-NRT. It didn't last long. IAH was the queen bee at CO with only 3 hubs. Its role has changed within the new United with 7 diverse hubs all around the country.


I believe the 2nd daily IAH-NRT was replaced by NH.
Next flight: IAH-GUA-IAH on UA in Y.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Why did CO choose EWR as their TPAC Gateway instead of IAH?

Wed May 22, 2019 7:44 pm

kaitak wrote:
And don't forget that, back in the late 1980s, a charming gentleman by the name of Frank Lorenzo was in control of Continental; it took over People Express, which by then had started an EWR-LGW service with 747s and this was continued by CO, which also operated LGW-DEN (and for a time, LGW-MIA). With a well established PE hub (if hub is the right name for a PE base), CO just built on it. With Lorenzo in charge, CO had a less than impressive reputation, but once he was removed (I think the FAA banned him from being an airline CEO, if not from the industry altogether), things began to get better. A former Boeing executive, Gordon Bethune took over and under him, CO went "from worst to first" and gradually built up that EWR t/a operation, using 757s, 764s and of course, 777s.


PeoplExpress took an abandoned terminal in a nearly abandoned airport, and turned it into an economic driver. It still remember the foot of snow blown under the gate door into the waiting area, and the rat tracks in the dusty old terminal weeks after it opened. CO turned it into a money-maker, and now United is turning in to all but a fortress hub.
In addition, the New York Air merger is what jump startedCO in Newark.

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