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PacificWest
Posts: 86
Joined: Sun May 06, 2007 3:52 pm

Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Mon May 20, 2019 11:57 pm

LAXBUR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
DL717 wrote:

Maybe try and focus on running the airline they have rather than wind up more financially upside down than they already are. Right now they are one bad recession from becoming nobody’s airline.


AS is not in financial peril. If you spent some time with the financial statements (start with the balance sheet) you could see that ALK actually carries less long-term debt than JBLU and has comparable net operating cash flow. They aren't even close in Market Capitalization: ALK at $7.71B and B6 at 5.31B.

That said, a return to operational excellence could be rewarded. Look at how DL has put some distance between itself and AA and UA (and has been rewarded in RASM); look at Spirit vs. Frontier. Reliability is good.


Be careful with facts. Many on here are allergic. :lol:


Everyone knows AS makes money in SEA, PDX -- I'm just interested to see how California turns out. Are they doing better there the last quarter or two?

I think Alaska is good at hanging on to it's current customers, but I'm not so sure how great they are at attracting new customers. In my opinion, you have to fly AS several times before you get the chance to appreciate their customer service.
 
LAXBUR
Posts: 247
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Tue May 21, 2019 12:03 am

PacificWest wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

AS is not in financial peril. If you spent some time with the financial statements (start with the balance sheet) you could see that ALK actually carries less long-term debt than JBLU and has comparable net operating cash flow. They aren't even close in Market Capitalization: ALK at $7.71B and B6 at 5.31B.

That said, a return to operational excellence could be rewarded. Look at how DL has put some distance between itself and AA and UA (and has been rewarded in RASM); look at Spirit vs. Frontier. Reliability is good.


Be careful with facts. Many on here are allergic. :lol:


Everyone knows AS makes money in SEA, PDX -- I'm just interested to see how California turns out. Are they doing better there the last quarter or two?

I think Alaska is good at hanging on to it's current customers, but I'm not so sure how great they are at attracting new customers. In my opinion, you have to fly AS several times before you get the chance to appreciate their customer service.


It won't be easy. Also, it won't be overnight. I'm not sure how long is too long - that's not my area of expertise. They have added SNA-Bay Area flights and upgauged a little LAX-SJC. Seems like BUR-SJC is struggling. And keep in mind they still serve quite a few smaller airports in California that Southwest does not.
 
Aliqiout
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Tue May 21, 2019 12:08 am

Detroit313 wrote:
The only way Alaska can survive against global airlines like Delta, United and American is to become part of a legacy airline.

Otherwise they will never make money with so much competition by Delta in Seattle.

Alaska is a legacy airline. Legacy airlines are airlines that had interstate or international service before deregulation.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_carrier

But to your point, AS has been competing against bigger airlines since 1932. They certainly cant compete globally, but they can compete regionally. Of course that doesn't mean they won't eventually merge to provide profit taking for their shareholders.
 
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VS4ever
Posts: 2016
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Tue May 21, 2019 12:12 am

want to know what's going on from the AS side... I think this will help
http://investor.alaskaair.com/static-fi ... 23dd30fcaf
That feeling when you sit at the end of a runway, brakes are released and the raw power takes over. Now that is a thing of beauty and it never gets old.
 
DwayneStorkman
Posts: 11
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 3:45 am

Alaska's Management trying to run a combined AS/B6? They're in over their heads with Virgin!
 
strfyr51
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 6:55 am

enilria wrote:
Probably true, emphasis “trying”. Given how the acquisition of VX turned out I wouldn’t loan them money to try again.

Has it turned out so Badly? I think AS has their head around that merger Now. And? They're no longer scared of Airbus Products. I think it would be the best action for them to become a TRULY National carrier. Especially if they could establish a Midwest hub somewhere like Kansas City or St. Louis to not be so North-south centric.
 
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RWA380
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 9:19 am

strfyr51 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Probably true, emphasis “trying”. Given how the acquisition of VX turned out I wouldn’t loan them money to try again.

Has it turned out so Badly? I think AS has their head around that merger Now. And? They're no longer scared of Airbus Products. I think it would be the best action for them to become a TRULY National carrier. Especially if they could establish a Midwest hub somewhere like Kansas City or St. Louis to not be so North-south centric.


Think JFK. AS has zero intention, currently, of hubbing outside the Pacific time zone. But if they were to do something new, I think JFK is their main interest on the East Coast. Which makes this B6 merge garbage seem real to a few people, but AS has plenty do currently & are digesting VX well.
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CLTDAL
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 12:57 pm

I think this would work. It would create a very strong "Barbell" route network! Extremely similar to when America West purchased US Airways. AW was strong in the West and US was strong in the East. Here, You have a very dominant west coast carrier and a very dominant east coast carrier- it would work. Plus....Alaska could bring Hawaii to JetBlue customers and possibly Asia and JetBlue could bring all of the islands, South America and Europe to Alaska customers. If the government saw all of this.....i would put a bet on it happeneing. Its good for both airlines and for the consumer. A possible Midwest Focus City might be needed, but not right away.
Thoughts????
 
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enilria
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 1:08 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Probably true, emphasis “trying”. Given how the acquisition of VX turned out I wouldn’t loan them money to try again.

Has it turned out so Badly? I think AS has their head around that merger Now. And? They're no longer scared of Airbus Products. I think it would be the best action for them to become a TRULY National carrier. Especially if they could establish a Midwest hub somewhere like Kansas City or St. Louis to not be so North-south centric.

When they bought VX they listed the following as the main value of buying VX:

1) Valuable slots in DCA/LGA (They have now handed those slots to competitors)
2) Strong operation at SFO (They initially expanded mid- and long-haul, but have wound it all back and are shrinking)
3) Strong operation at LAX (Not as bad as SFO, but they are certainly not much better off in LAX than they were pre-merger. They are still way behind the US3+WN.)
4) Entry into the lucrative Transcon market (they have gone from the best product to probably the worst product and continue cutting service)
5) A mid-America mini-hub in DAL (the mini-hub is gone. They have shrunk traffic at DAL dramatically with frequency cuts and swaps to RJs, and have basically given away access to DL at DAL when they could have at least sold the assets to DL and gotten something out of it).

So no, the merger hasn't gone well. I would say it's about equal to WN-FL, although WN-FL has almost fully played out now, while AS-VX is at an earlier stage. While that has happened they have done about as well as could be expected in SEA up against the Delta onslaught. They have held their position in PDX without having to spend much, although SY is taking a stab at them there. And most importantly, DL has made very little progress in taking a significant share of the high yield State of Alaska market. I think there's also risk going forward in their Hawaii operations as a result of the upcoming war between WN and HA, but I don't think there was much AS could have done about that.

So, I think AS has done a fairly good job with their traditional network, but it's basically liquidating VX bit by bit...which is a common, but value destroying post-merger outcome.
 
CLTDAL
Posts: 34
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 1:22 pm

Also....I think they should have all 3 merged. If the VX deal fell thru with B6....B6 should have counter-offered a 3 way merge. VX was very small and I think the government would have allowed it. It reminds me of AA wanting B6 for such a long time. Apparently it was going to be a AA/US/B6 merge a few years back. I remember working at B6 and all of a sudden our gates were all next to AA gates t most cities and somehow information had been leaked from B6 corporate about an eminent AA merge. However- US said NO. They wanted NOTHING to do with B6. Zero- Zilch. It was US and AA or nothing. So there you have it. Looks like nobody wants to get too cozy with JetBlue.....I wonder why?????
 
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Polot
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 1:29 pm

CLTDAL wrote:
Also....I think they should have all 3 merged. If the VX deal fell thru with B6....B6 should have counter-offered a 3 way merge. VX was very small and I think the government would have allowed it.

B6 can’t just offer a merger involving a third party without their blessing.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 1:32 pm

CLTDAL wrote:
I think this would work. It would create a very strong "Barbell" route network! Extremely similar to when America West purchased US Airways. AW was strong in the West and US was strong in the East.


U.S. barbell networks don't work. Ask USAir + Piedmont + PSA. (It essentially liquidated PSA after paying $400 million for it in 1986). Ask America West + USAirways, which stumbled operationally and for strategy non-stop between the 2005 merger and the acquisition of AA.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 8:14 pm

Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 1:41 pm

enilria wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Probably true, emphasis “trying”. Given how the acquisition of VX turned out I wouldn’t loan them money to try again.

Has it turned out so Badly? I think AS has their head around that merger Now. And? They're no longer scared of Airbus Products. I think it would be the best action for them to become a TRULY National carrier. Especially if they could establish a Midwest hub somewhere like Kansas City or St. Louis to not be so North-south centric.

When they bought VX they listed the following as the main value of buying VX:

1) Valuable slots in DCA/LGA (They have now handed those slots to competitors)
2) Strong operation at SFO (They initially expanded mid- and long-haul, but have wound it all back and are shrinking)
3) Strong operation at LAX (Not as bad as SFO, but they are certainly not much better off in LAX than they were pre-merger. They are still way behind the US3+WN.)
4) Entry into the lucrative Transcon market (they have gone from the best product to probably the worst product and continue cutting service)
5) A mid-America mini-hub in DAL (the mini-hub is gone. They have shrunk traffic at DAL dramatically with frequency cuts and swaps to RJs, and have basically given away access to DL at DAL when they could have at least sold the assets to DL and gotten something out of it).

So no, the merger hasn't gone well. I would say it's about equal to WN-FL, although WN-FL has almost fully played out now, while AS-VX is at an earlier stage. While that has happened they have done about as well as could be expected in SEA up against the Delta onslaught. They have held their position in PDX without having to spend much, although SY is taking a stab at them there. And most importantly, DL has made very little progress in taking a significant share of the high yield State of Alaska market. I think there's also risk going forward in their Hawaii operations as a result of the upcoming war between WN and HA, but I don't think there was much AS could have done about that.

So, I think AS has done a fairly good job with their traditional network, but it's basically liquidating VX bit by bit...which is a common, but value destroying post-merger outcome.



One difference was that VX wasn't the airline B6 is. VX struggled with profitability and to get it's "cheap chic" business model to really work. B6 on the other hand is a well established airline with valuable routes, a loyal following including corporate contracts, a successful premium product and very good brand recognition. I tend to doubt that AS is ready for another merger but I can see this merger down the road. I'm not sure today what AS saw in VX other than preventing B6 from getting bigger.
 
Bluewho
Posts: 44
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 2:52 pm

CLTDAL wrote:
Also....I think they should have all 3 merged. If the VX deal fell thru with B6....B6 should have counter-offered a 3 way merge. VX was very small and I think the government would have allowed it. It reminds me of AA wanting B6 for such a long time. Apparently it was going to be a AA/US/B6 merge a few years back. I remember working at B6 and all of a sudden our gates were all next to AA gates t most cities and somehow information had been leaked from B6 corporate about an eminent AA merge. However- US said NO. They wanted NOTHING to do with B6. Zero- Zilch. It was US and AA or nothing. So there you have it. Looks like nobody wants to get too cozy with JetBlue.....I wonder why?????




Why?
 
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enilria
Posts: 9261
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 2:55 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
I'm not sure today what AS saw in VX other than preventing B6 from getting bigger.

I think that's exactly right, but I believe the thinking is also that they have to buy B6 before B6 buys them. If AS has more merger hiccups and B6 improves its trajectory then that is a possibility. I also think the Alaska name as a national brand is too regional and the JetBlue brand works better. I'm not sure the AS management is willing to swallow that bit of reality. People say that's meaningless, but I run into infrequent travelers all the time who say "I don't consider Southwest unless I'm going to THAT PART OF THE COUNTRY". That's really an impression aggravated by the branding. The Alaska brand is even worse in terms of perceived regionalization since "Southwest" is vaguer.
 
phxa340
Posts: 1055
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 3:36 pm

tphuang wrote:
LAXBUR wrote:
tphuang wrote:

except that when JetBlue did worse in these cali-transcon markets, they were still doing better margin wise than AS in these markets. All the data from past quarters prove that.

If both carriers did 10% worse than a year ago, then the carrier that did better a year ago is still doing better this year by the same margin.

Does that make sense?

As for wall street analysts, I wouldn't boast ALK given their stock performances recently if i were you.


in the past year, the non-GAAP profit numbers for JBLU (if you subtract out the E90/new labor contract cost) and ALK are pretty similar actually. Really doesn't justify the higher market cap of ALK imo. And if you look at their asset, I would say what B6 has at NYC and BOS is more valuable than what ALK has at SEA/SFO/LAX. In an actual takeover, it would require quite a premium to acquire all that gate space and slots that B6 has at JFK.


I wasn't boasting at all. Nothing in my post suggested anything anti-B6 but you tend to have an anti-Alaska agenda. ALK has an average overweight rating while JBLU is a hold. But apparently you know more than everyone else. Even that Alaska's market cap isn't correct.


Here is where you are wrong. I may have my favorites, but my comments about performance are purely based on data. There have been plenty of as supporters liking my comments about as doing well and dl doing poorly in Seattle. I call it as I see it. It's not exactly a secret that as had the worst margins in the publicly listed us airlines in the past 2 quarters.


My issue with your data is that it doesn’t tell the whole story. Yield and fare, while useful, is partial information. AS has lower costs than B6 but that is never factored in to your analysis, that I have seen, happy to be corrected. Please don’t get me wrong because I am grateful for your posts, I just sometimes think the data is presented in a way that shows AS as a dumpster fire, especially in SAN, where AS has stated they are profitable on trans cons.
 
tphuang
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 4:46 pm

phxa340 wrote:
My issue with your data is that it doesn’t tell the whole story. Yield and fare, while useful, is partial information. AS has lower costs than B6 but that is never factored in to your analysis, that I have seen, happy to be corrected. Please don’t get me wrong because I am grateful for your posts, I just sometimes think the data is presented in a way that shows AS as a dumpster fire, especially in SAN, where AS has stated they are profitable on trans cons.

I do try to share this info provided that I have enough time or patience. I do post about capacity per flight and make some comments on cost for that. I talk about flight timing on once per day transcon and note the flights that have red-eye going back. If I'm misleading in anything, please do let me know in the future. It's not meant to mislead, but rather to provide additional info everyone.

AS and B6 have about the same cost stage length adjusted per AS's own investor presentation (I think B6 was higher by single digits). Do consider that B6 has the largest chunk of its ASM out of NYC, which have the highest fees in the country. Since 2 airlines on the same route should pay about the same fees, we have to knock B6 cost down a little bit when comparing the yields on the same route. So if we remove that from the equation on the same starting and finishing airport, the cost of a 162 seat B6 A320 and a 159 seat B737-800 is probably about the same. Keep in mind that while AS cost includes the high CASM of RJ, B6 cost also includes the high CASM of E90. Without going further into their books, I can only assume that they are in the same ballpark cost wise when operating comparable aircraft A320 vs B738 and A321 vs B739.

What AS stated a while back regarding transcon is not the same as what their present performance is on Cali-transcon.
 
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yyz717
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 5:53 pm

Rumour or not, this is not spreading to the markets. B6 stock price continues to trade in the doldrums.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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EA CO AS
Posts: 15261
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 8:26 pm

enilria wrote:
When they bought VX they listed the following as the main value of buying VX:

1) Valuable slots in DCA/LGA (They have now handed those slots to competitors)


Leased to, not handed to, and they can take those back earlier than the lease expirations under certain conditions. Those assets still belong to AS. [/quote]

enilria wrote:
2) Strong operation at SFO (They initially expanded mid- and long-haul, but have wound it all back and are shrinking)


The service from SFO remains larger than it was prior to the acquisition.

enilria wrote:
3) Strong operation at LAX (Not as bad as SFO, but they are certainly not much better off in LAX than they were pre-merger. They are still way behind the US3+WN.)


LAX is a fractured market, with AS taking about 11% of it, while the top carrier is still under 20%.

enilria wrote:
4) Entry into the lucrative Transcon market (they have gone from the best product to probably the worst product and continue cutting service)


VX had been unseated as having the best premium transcon product before they were acquired, and AS made a strategic decision to not compete in that space. Unprecedented transcon competition had made the market unprofitable but AS is taking steps to turn that around. They'll be in the market for the long haul.

enilria wrote:
5) A mid-America mini-hub in DAL (the mini-hub is gone. They have shrunk traffic at DAL dramatically with frequency cuts and swaps to RJs, and have basically given away access to DL at DAL when they could have at least sold the assets to DL and gotten something out of it).


DAL remains a focus city with far more service from the West Coast than it ever had before, and as I've said repeatedly, AS isn't about to just cut and run there - they'll be sticking around.

enilria wrote:
So no, the merger hasn't gone well.


Hogwash.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
catiii
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 8:34 pm

I can't believe a thread about an (alleged) pilot based rumor of a merger has lasted this long...
 
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bluefltspecial
Posts: 488
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 8:35 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
CLTDAL wrote:
I think this would work. It would create a very strong "Barbell" route network! Extremely similar to when America West purchased US Airways. AW was strong in the West and US was strong in the East.


U.S. barbell networks don't work. Ask USAir + Piedmont + PSA. (It essentially liquidated PSA after paying $400 million for it in 1986). Ask America West + USAirways, which stumbled operationally and for strategy non-stop between the 2005 merger and the acquisition of AA.


This was my first thought as well, buy a West Coast Airline, and then move all their 727s to the East Coast, and let Southwest Airlines have all the marketshare you just paid millions for ...
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
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Veigar
Posts: 393
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 8:38 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Why hasn’t Boeing made a 757MAX? :hissyfit:

Plot twist: The new NMA is 707 MAX


The MAX 10 is baaaaasicalllyyyy a 707 with two LEAP engines.
 
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bluefltspecial
Posts: 488
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 8:41 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
CLTDAL wrote:
I think this would work. It would create a very strong "Barbell" route network! Extremely similar to when America West purchased US Airways. AW was strong in the West and US was strong in the East.


U.S. barbell networks don't work. Ask USAir + Piedmont + PSA. (It essentially liquidated PSA after paying $400 million for it in 1986). Ask America West + USAirways, which stumbled operationally and for strategy non-stop between the 2005 merger and the acquisition of AA.


This was my first thought.

Spend all your money and to capture the West Coast Market,
then move all their aircraft to the East Coast, so Southwest can come in and take over all your marketshare that you just spent all that money on...
Save a horse, ride a Fly-boy....
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3673
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 9:01 pm

RWA380 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
enilria wrote:
Probably true, emphasis “trying”. Given how the acquisition of VX turned out I wouldn’t loan them money to try again.

Has it turned out so Badly? I think AS has their head around that merger Now. And? They're no longer scared of Airbus Products. I think it would be the best action for them to become a TRULY National carrier. Especially if they could establish a Midwest hub somewhere like Kansas City or St. Louis to not be so North-south centric.


Think JFK. AS has zero intention, currently, of hubbing outside the Pacific time zone. But if they were to do something new, I think JFK is their main interest on the East Coast. Which makes this B6 merge garbage seem real to a few people, but AS has plenty do currently & are digesting VX well.


Can you REALLY say that for sure or are you just wishing? I think AS might have the Desire and possibly the skill to become a National carrier. And a Merger?
Might be the way to build an National infrastructure. AS is already competing well on the west coast and B6 is doing pretty well on the east coast. Where they both lack? Is the central USA! Which is why I could see them joining forces to open a central USA hub that Neither has at the moment. Hell! What's the WORST that can happen? Nothing?? We all know it might be one damn Long shot for it to happen But since none of the other Majors could EVER get the approvals to merge with Alaska OR Jet Blue? then there's not a lot of room to speculate is there?? There are not many merger scenarios left IN the USA for airlines unless somebody is going Under. Since this is TOTAL SPECULATION? Hell! Then Why not speculate HOW it could happen rather than WHY NOT?? What's the worst that can happen?
 
speedbird52
Posts: 710
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 9:03 pm

Veigar wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Why hasn’t Boeing made a 757MAX? :hissyfit:

Plot twist: The new NMA is 707 MAX


The MAX 10 is baaaaasicalllyyyy a 707 with two LEAP engines.

In capacity yes but not in range. At least compared to the 320
 
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RWA380
Posts: 5414
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 9:42 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
Has it turned out so Badly? I think AS has their head around that merger Now. And? They're no longer scared of Airbus Products. I think it would be the best action for them to become a TRULY National carrier. Especially if they could establish a Midwest hub somewhere like Kansas City or St. Louis to not be so North-south centric.


Think JFK. AS has zero intention, currently, of hubbing outside the Pacific time zone. But if they were to do something new, I think JFK is their main interest on the East Coast. Which makes this B6 merge garbage seem real to a few people, but AS has plenty do currently & are digesting VX well.


Can you REALLY say that for sure or are you just wishing? I think AS might have the Desire and possibly the skill to become a National carrier. And a Merger?
Might be the way to build an National infrastructure. AS is already competing well on the west coast and B6 is doing pretty well on the east coast. Where they both lack? Is the central USA! Which is why I could see them joining forces to open a central USA hub that Neither has at the moment. Hell! What's the WORST that can happen? Nothing?? We all know it might be one damn Long shot for it to happen But since none of the other Majors could EVER get the approvals to merge with Alaska OR Jet Blue? then there's not a lot of room to speculate is there?? There are not many merger scenarios left IN the USA for airlines unless somebody is going Under. Since this is TOTAL SPECULATION? Hell! Then Why not speculate HOW it could happen rather than WHY NOT?? What's the worst that can happen?


Nothing is for certain, until it happens. My comments here, unless otherwise stated are based upon my own interpretation of what I hear from the four friends I have that work for AAG. They are all in different positions throughout the company & one works at HQ in Seattle.

I don't get the inside scoop on things that they are not allowed to talk about. I did know AS was only asking for HAV from LAX, before it was public, but it had already been submitted & was going to be a matter of public record in a day or two anyway. It was entertaining to hear people guessing AS's intentions here on A.net when I knew. I even posted that I was sure LAX was their only interest but was met with resistance by the usual naysayers that AS should route via Florida to have a snowballs chance in hell of making the market work, they may have been right, but AS only asked for LAX.

But for the most part, I am drawing my conclusions regarding AAG from 30+ years travel industry experience & again the conversations I have & what information that is common knowledge. After the multiple years we have both been on this site, I'd think you'd know I wasn't a poster who puts wishes into statements.

But, I do know, that currently AS has zero intention of any mid-continent hub. If they had that ambition, they would have kept their in perimiter slots at DCA & kept flying to LGA on the E-175's from DAL.

The fact that the only Boardroom out of the Pacific time zone is at JFK & it is refurbished or is going to be soon, shows JFK is an important station to them or they would not have dropped much into it. While no one has ever said we are building up JFK, it's being indicated by how much value AS has put into JFK. I can tell you, from inside AAG, part of the many reasons they wanted to acquire VX was & is, the presence at JFK.
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777-2/3, DC8, DC9, MD80/2/7/8, D10-1/3/4, M11, L10-2/5, A300/310/319/320
AA AC AQ BM BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WN WP YS 8M
 
DDR
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 10:24 pm

bluefltspecial wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
CLTDAL wrote:
I think this would work. It would create a very strong "Barbell" route network! Extremely similar to when America West purchased US Airways. AW was strong in the West and US was strong in the East.


U.S. barbell networks don't work. Ask USAir + Piedmont + PSA. (It essentially liquidated PSA after paying $400 million for it in 1986). Ask America West + USAirways, which stumbled operationally and for strategy non-stop between the 2005 merger and the acquisition of AA.


This was my first thought as well, buy a West Coast Airline, and then move all their 727s to the East Coast, and let Southwest Airlines have all the marketshare you just paid millions for ...


AA killed Air Cal and Reno Air. That also helped WN expand. To this day I do not understand the reasoning for the purchase of any of the west coast airlines.
 
Cunard
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Wed May 22, 2019 11:54 pm

Leftseatpusher wrote:
You need to change your name to "BlueDoesntKnow", because your fantasy VATSIM rumors are starting to get annoying.


Absolutely and this is why we need a like button on theses forums to congratulate people like yourself on an excellent post :-)

The same OP is renowned for these sort of rumours just like the ''secretly revealed'' flight schedule he released of JetBlue's BOS-LHR schedule commencing for summer 2019! I'm sure others can remember that one!

Someone who posted that he was ''supposedly'' or actually on the plane bound for New York and personally heading for the official JetBlue press release for the airline's announcement regarding them going transatlantic but not to reappear again or post anything more after which I felt strange considering how much the topic was discussed here on a.netl

A fantasist who consistently enjoys starting rumours with no source or facts to back them up and who obviously enjoys the discussion but never involves himself in his own threads.

Is that a definition of a Troll?
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
DwayneStorkman
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 2:52 am

The AS babies, on this form and at the airline, will cry until the end of times if the Alaska name goes away. Within the PacNW the employees & many customers have gargantuan unrealistic opinions of how great their average airline is.

enilria wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
I'm not sure today what AS saw in VX other than preventing B6 from getting bigger.

I think that's exactly right, but I believe the thinking is also that they have to buy B6 before B6 buys them. If AS has more merger hiccups and B6 improves its trajectory then that is a possibility. I also think the Alaska name as a national brand is too regional and the JetBlue brand works better. I'm not sure the AS management is willing to swallow that bit of reality. People say that's meaningless, but I run into infrequent travelers all the time who say "I don't consider Southwest unless I'm going to THAT PART OF THE COUNTRY". That's really an impression aggravated by the branding. The Alaska brand is even worse in terms of perceived regionalization since "Southwest" is vaguer.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 3:23 am

DwayneStorkman wrote:
The AS babies, on this form and at the airline, will cry until the end of times if the Alaska name goes away. Within the PacNW the employees & many customers have gargantuan unrealistic opinions of how great their average airline is.


Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
impilot
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 3:58 am

EA CO AS wrote:
DwayneStorkman wrote:
The AS babies, on this form and at the airline, will cry until the end of times if the Alaska name goes away. Within the PacNW the employees & many customers have gargantuan unrealistic opinions of how great their average airline is.


Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.

JetBlue did...
 
CobaltScar
Posts: 418
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 5:22 am

impilot wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
DwayneStorkman wrote:
The AS babies, on this form and at the airline, will cry until the end of times if the Alaska name goes away. Within the PacNW the employees & many customers have gargantuan unrealistic opinions of how great their average airline is.


Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.

JetBlue did...


Exactly, and B6 was competing against the lovable Southwest all those years, while Alaska was in the ez cripple category against the likes of fight club UA and too big to fail so we can be messy AA.

Alaska will never have the national much less international recognition B6 has, despite being 5 times older. Like i've said before, no one wants to fly from cultured metropolises on a plane named Alaska with a picture of E.T. on the tail. They want style, sophistication, and a brand that lends itself to dreams of spendor, not icy wastelands.
 
khinstorff
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 1:07 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
impilot wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.

JetBlue did...


Exactly, and B6 was competing against the lovable Southwest all those years, while Alaska was in the ez cripple category against the likes of fight club UA and too big to fail so we can be messy AA.

Alaska will never have the national much less international recognition B6 has, despite being 5 times older. Like i've said before, no one wants to fly from cultured metropolises on a plane named Alaska with a picture of E.T. on the tail. They want style, sophistication, and a brand that lends itself to dreams of spendor, not icy wastelands.


The JetBlue brand means literally nothing to flyers west of the Eastern time zone. Let’s not get all high and mighty about its brand. I’m sure the people of “cultured metropolises” like White Plains and Hartford don’t give a crap what it says on the airplane’s tail as long as they’re saving a few bucks. Grow up :roll:
 
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enilria
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 1:49 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
enilria wrote:
When they bought VX they listed the following as the main value of buying VX:

1) Valuable slots in DCA/LGA (They have now handed those slots to competitors)


Leased to, not handed to, and they can take those back earlier than the lease expirations under certain conditions. Those assets still belong to AS.

enilria wrote:
2) Strong operation at SFO (They initially expanded mid- and long-haul, but have wound it all back and are shrinking)


The service from SFO remains larger than it was prior to the acquisition.

enilria wrote:
3) Strong operation at LAX (Not as bad as SFO, but they are certainly not much better off in LAX than they were pre-merger. They are still way behind the US3+WN.)


LAX is a fractured market, with AS taking about 11% of it, while the top carrier is still under 20%.

enilria wrote:
4) Entry into the lucrative Transcon market (they have gone from the best product to probably the worst product and continue cutting service)


VX had been unseated as having the best premium transcon product before they were acquired, and AS made a strategic decision to not compete in that space. Unprecedented transcon competition had made the market unprofitable but AS is taking steps to turn that around. They'll be in the market for the long haul.

enilria wrote:
5) A mid-America mini-hub in DAL (the mini-hub is gone. They have shrunk traffic at DAL dramatically with frequency cuts and swaps to RJs, and have basically given away access to DL at DAL when they could have at least sold the assets to DL and gotten something out of it).


DAL remains a focus city with far more service from the West Coast than it ever had before, and as I've said repeatedly, AS isn't about to just cut and run there - they'll be sticking around.

enilria wrote:
So no, the merger hasn't gone well.


Hogwash.

verb
past tense: handed; past participle: handed
1.
pick (something) up and give it to (someone).


Yes, they gave the slots to another airline. Didn't say it was free, but you don't buy an airline to sell/give/lease their greatest assets (from your own press release) to competitors.
EA CO AS wrote:
VX had been unseated as having the best premium transcon product before they were acquired, and AS made a strategic decision to not compete in that space. Unprecedented transcon competition had made the market unprofitable but AS is taking steps to turn that around. They'll be in the market for the long haul.

Didn't say best, I said they now have the worst transcon premium product. You seem to agree by saying AS chose "not to compete in that space". Ok, so we agree. "Unprecedented transcon competition had made the market unprofitable". So you are saying that B6, for example, is losing money with transcon Mint? That would mean B6 management has repeatedly lied to Wall Street in their earnings calls. I'm interested what actual data-based evidence you have to back up this statement that transcon premium is no longer profitable? Also, if transcon was so unprofitable at the time of the merger that AS decided not to try to compete in the premium market then why did they buy VX? That was their whole business basically, and again AS specifically said in the announcement that acquiring VX's strong position in transcons was one of the top 3 reasons they acquired VX.

SFO: This month (May) AS has 2600 departures scheduled from SFO. A year ago they had 2842.

I'm going to use seats for DAL since they have done a lot of the cuts through downgauging. May 2019 31,356 departing seats. May 2018 51,463.

Transcons at LAX/SFO to WAS/NYC/BOS. I'm going back to departures since there are no transcon RJs. May 2019 722 May 2018 911.

They are clearly backing away from much of what they acquired and if you google there are plenty of articles talking about negative earnings impact from the merger, so it is not as if that idea has not been brought up, often by AS management themselves in the quarterly calls.

Again, I understand you are a big fan of AS, but although you ignored it, I did say several positive things about AS in that post. You just ignored all of that part.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 2:14 pm

DwayneStorkman wrote:
The AS babies, on this form and at the airline, will cry until the end of times if the Alaska name goes away. Within the PacNW the employees & many customers have gargantuan unrealistic opinions of how great their average airline is.

enilria wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
I'm not sure today what AS saw in VX other than preventing B6 from getting bigger.

I think that's exactly right, but I believe the thinking is also that they have to buy B6 before B6 buys them. If AS has more merger hiccups and B6 improves its trajectory then that is a possibility. I also think the Alaska name as a national brand is too regional and the JetBlue brand works better. I'm not sure the AS management is willing to swallow that bit of reality. People say that's meaningless, but I run into infrequent travelers all the time who say "I don't consider Southwest unless I'm going to THAT PART OF THE COUNTRY". That's really an impression aggravated by the branding. The Alaska brand is even worse in terms of perceived regionalization since "Southwest" is vaguer.


And

CobaltScar wrote:
impilot wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.

JetBlue did...


Exactly, and B6 was competing against the lovable Southwest all those years, while Alaska was in the ez cripple category against the likes of fight club UA and too big to fail so we can be messy AA.

Alaska will never have the national much less international recognition B6 has, despite being 5 times older. Like i've said before, no one wants to fly from cultured metropolises on a plane named Alaska with a picture of E.T. on the tail. They want style, sophistication, and a brand that lends itself to dreams of spendor, not icy wastelands.


The maturity is strong with these ones....
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Fex180
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 2:26 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
Like i've said before, no one wants to fly from cultured metropolises on a plane named Alaska with a picture of E.T. on the tail. They want style, sophistication, and a brand that lends itself to dreams of spendor, not icy wastelands.


E.T? The image on Alaska's tail is a native Alaskan Eskimo.

and tell me how B6's livery lends itself to "dreams of splendor" what does that even mean??
 
hiflyeras
Posts: 1978
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 2:31 pm

Why do I even bother reading threads like this when I know they'll degenerate into absurdity?

All the majors are in the dumps right now...look at their stock prices! AS still has a lack of visibility on transcons from California. That'll improve but will take time...meanwhile, right-size the schedule and expand where there is low-hanging fruit. Save cash (and they have plenty) for the next recession...in fact aren't airline stock prices considered a canary in the coal mine?
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 3:04 pm

impilot wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
DwayneStorkman wrote:
The AS babies, on this form and at the airline, will cry until the end of times if the Alaska name goes away. Within the PacNW the employees & many customers have gargantuan unrealistic opinions of how great their average airline is.


Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.

JetBlue did...


You know what, you're right - I stand corrected. I thought their streak ended at 11. Mea culpa.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 3:15 pm

enilria wrote:
Didn't say best, I said they now have the worst transcon premium product.


You most certainly did:

enilria wrote:
4) Entry into the lucrative Transcon market (they have gone from the best product to probably the worst product and continue cutting service)


Or are you saying you meant something else, somehow?

enilria wrote:
SFO: This month (May) AS has 2600 departures scheduled from SFO. A year ago they had 2842.


And this month AS has more departures scheduled from SFO than the combined AS/VX did in April 2016 when the acquisition was announced. AS initially expanded SFO, then cut back in areas that didn't make sense, but the overall operation is larger than it was in April 2016.

So, saying they've reduced what they acquired is false.

enilria wrote:
I'm going to use seats for DAL since they have done a lot of the cuts through downgauging.


And look at what they did; they took un and underperforming routes out of DAL to the east, where they're weak, into additional frequencies from the West Coast, building on an already strong franchise. That's what smart RM and planning departments do.

enilria wrote:
Transcons at LAX/SFO to WAS/NYC/BOS. I'm going back to departures since there are no transcon RJs. May 2019 722 May 2018 911.


A transcon frequency was taken from LAX to fund an extra SEAJFK transcon, and another went from SFO to fund a SJCJFK flight. Maybe you'd like to check your total transcon data instead of cherry-picking LAX and SFO only in an attempt to bolster your flawed "they are backing away from what they acquired" argument?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 3:43 pm

At the end of the day, AS needed VX to thwart a strengthened B6. Everything else is gravy. You can argue all day long about the outcome of the merger but you can’t argue that B6+VX wouldn’t have trapped AS in SEA/PDX or that B6+VX wouldn’t have put AS in a tough spot on the west coast. In short, they had to do it.

But why are we replaying this same song yet again? It’s done. AS +/vs B6 today is an entirely separate scenario, and in the case of this lame thread, just a trollish rumor.

Yet here we are Lol
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 3:46 pm

Again I'd bring it back that VX may have been the "cool airline" with the "really cool product" but that did not transform into better financial performance. As stated by others AS moved to snatch VX out the hands of B6 not because VX had so much per se to offer. Seems as though that strategy has cost AS.

B6 has never seemed very interested in the Midwest. They seem far more interested in LON than Kansas City or St Louis. If the BOD of AS has a strategic direction to become a national carrier than ultimately putting a bid for B6 is conceivable. The timing is not known but right now no other airline has expressed interest in acquiring B6 so there is likely no immediate need while they digest the VX acquisition.
 
CobaltScar
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 4:24 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
At the end of the day, AS needed VX to thwart a strengthened B6. Everything else is gravy. You can argue all day long about the outcome of the merger but you can’t argue that B6+VX wouldn’t have trapped AS in SEA/PDX or that B6+VX wouldn’t have put AS in a tough spot on the west coast. In short, they had to do it.

But why are we replaying this same song yet again? It’s done. AS +/vs B6 today is an entirely separate scenario, and in the case of this lame thread, just a trollish rumor.

Yet here we are Lol



AS is trapping themselves in PDX/SEA by retreating from the old VX network that was supposed to free them. Why did they bother buying VX when B6 still had the power to run them out of transcons and WN had the power to keep them on the losing side of profitability in Cali?

imo the desperate gamble has failed. Time for a last ditch plan B
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 4:45 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
AS is trapping themselves in PDX/SEA by retreating from the old VX network that was supposed to free them.



You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Claiming AS is “retreating from the old VX network” is a blatant lie.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
737maxfan
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 5:14 pm

I think the single biggest mistake ASA has made on transcons is slow playing the rollout on the transcon aircraft on satellite wifi and the new F cabin...its a big mistake.
The new cabin creates a very premium "enough" cabin for both business and leisure travelers transcon, combined with the very good customer service Alaska FA's deliver routinely.
I think many business and leisure travelers do not want or need to lie flat and sleep on a transcon or Hawaii flight since they will probably be working or watching movies in any case.
It seems pretty clear that the Alaska priority has been to conserve capital and paint the old VX planes before delivering what the business traveler really needs in 2019 .
As for the old VX F class..ugh..those seats were funky, worked poorly, and very hard to sit in on long flights, not comfortable at all. I cant imagine anyone who spent a lot of time in the old VX "state of the art" F class liking anything except the smaller cabin and hard barrier to coach. If ASA had to create a dedicated transcon fleet on key routes then they simply should until they get the new cabins and satellite wifi rolled out everywhere ..fwiw I have 1.5 million miles nearly on Alaska and do a lot of paid F and fly 10-12 transcons and Hawaii flights annually and increasing, and also have flown paid F regularly out of Seattle on United and AA when required (who oh why does ASA not fly direct to CLT ?) with some Delta sprinkled in so feel like in the mid term when ASA finally gets the new cabins and wifi they will do very well with their core customer base. But they really are behind where they should be on the 5-6.5 hour flights cabins and wifi.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Thu May 23, 2019 5:18 pm

CobaltScar wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
At the end of the day, AS needed VX to thwart a strengthened B6. Everything else is gravy. You can argue all day long about the outcome of the merger but you can’t argue that B6+VX wouldn’t have trapped AS in SEA/PDX or that B6+VX wouldn’t have put AS in a tough spot on the west coast. In short, they had to do it.

But why are we replaying this same song yet again? It’s done. AS +/vs B6 today is an entirely separate scenario, and in the case of this lame thread, just a trollish rumor.

Yet here we are Lol



AS is trapping themselves in PDX/SEA by retreating from the old VX network that was supposed to free them. Why did they bother buying VX when B6 still had the power to run them out of transcons and WN had the power to keep them on the losing side of profitability in Cali?

imo the desperate gamble has failed. Time for a last ditch plan B


#Emotional #BitterB6Guy
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
DwayneStorkman
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Fri May 24, 2019 4:52 am

What's your net promotor score?

I work with a lot of people who lap up the Alaska sauce just you brother. I also have as many colleagues who think you guys suck. It's the same everywhere...maybe except AA among the majors.

EA CO AS wrote:
DwayneStorkman wrote:
The AS babies, on this form and at the airline, will cry until the end of times if the Alaska name goes away. Within the PacNW the employees & many customers have gargantuan unrealistic opinions of how great their average airline is.


Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.
 
DwayneStorkman
Posts: 11
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Fri May 24, 2019 4:56 am

The numbers show you are on transcontinental.

EA CO AS wrote:
CobaltScar wrote:
AS is trapping themselves in PDX/SEA by retreating from the old VX network that was supposed to free them.



You’re entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Claiming AS is “retreating from the old VX network” is a blatant lie.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: Rumor: AS trying to get B6

Fri May 24, 2019 5:06 am

DwayneStorkman wrote:
The numbers show you are on transcontinental.


No they don't; the combined AS/VX network has grown on transcons since the acquisition in April 2016.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Fri May 24, 2019 5:11 am

DwayneStorkman wrote:
I also have as many colleagues who think you guys suck.


My eleven friends here disagree with you.

Image
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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RWA380
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Re: AS trying to get B6

Fri May 24, 2019 6:54 am

CobaltScar wrote:
impilot wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Eleven straight JD Power awards for highest in customer satisfaction tells me AS is better than just average.

We’re working on number 12. Can you tell me how many other U.S. carriers have won 12 in a row?

Zero.

JetBlue did...


Exactly, and B6 was competing against the lovable Southwest all those years, while Alaska was in the ez cripple category against the likes of fight club UA and too big to fail so we can be messy AA.

Alaska will never have the national much less international recognition B6 has, despite being 5 times older. Like i've said before, no one wants to fly from cultured metropolises on a plane named Alaska with a picture of E.T. on the tail. They want style, sophistication, and a brand that lends itself to dreams of spendor, not icy wastelands.


Hate AS much? AS has a far greater International reach than B6. While they don't currently, they have served the Russian Far East, they have been serving both Canada & Mexico for decades, nothing B6 has done. Now B6 flies the Caribbean, Central & the Northern part of South America.

AS would be the aggressor in a pitch to obtain B6, they would lose the JetBlue name, integrate it all into a much larger Alsska & eskimos would be flying from Europe to Hawaii & Alaska to South America.

AS would do the same thing they did with VX, cut underperforming routes, adjust routes to accomodate the right sized aircraft, Boeings flying JFK-FLL, MCO or BOS-PDX/SEA. I think AS may go F/W/Y.losing Mint, except on the premium few routes that they need to compete on SFO/LAX-JFK/BOS or Hawaii.

It sure would make it easier to consider a mix fleet moving forward with an even mix of A&B. I know VX birds were almost all leased, I don't know if B6 leases or is buying their aircraft, or both.

In short if AS buys B6, AAG deals with Embraer on replacing all the current B6 E-190's in exchange for more E-175ER's. The older Airbuses that could go, would go ASAP. Again AAG will be cutting underperforming services. Depending on age & time left on the lease terms, AS may decide to poark old Airbus aircraft & only refurbish those they own or are still filled with life on their contract.

I could imagine more than a dozen cities would be chopped, but I'd also expect AAG to fill in some places with adds in LAX, FLL, BOS, JFK, SFO, PDX, SEA & ANC. When you overlap their route maps, it is incredibly complimentary route map. While, as others have stated, there are fewer destinations in the middle & that's true with many carriers.

AAG would need to connect a few dots, as they did with their VX acqusition & then integrate schedules at the hub cities for the most available connecting opportunities.Routes like PDX-FLL.
707, 717, 720, 727-1/2, 737-1/2/3/4/5/7/8/9, 747-1/2/3, 757, 767-2/3/4, 777-2/3, DC8, DC9, MD80/2/7/8, D10-1/3/4, M11, L10-2/5, A300/310/319/320
AA AC AQ BM BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HG HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WN WP YS 8M
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