Delta & WestJet Joint Venture Future Routes

YYZORD · Fri May 10, 2019 7:05 pm

It may be close to the approval of the DL & WS JV, I remember someone mentioning on here that the proposed JV will get approved either this month or June. I was thinking which potential new routes could WS or DL can add or increase flights on thanks to this JV from both airline hubs. DL also getting the A220, we can maybe see an increase in transborder routes that were not possible before.

Here are my predictions:

DL or WS SEA-YYZ (possibility with A220, tech city and trans pacific hub)
DL LGA-YYZ (increase to current WS flights on that route as mentioned there will be increase on that route once JV is approved)
DL or WS YYZ-ORD (mentioned before to add flights on this route once JV is approved)
DL LAX-YYZ (no american carrier on this route and will help WS current flights)
DL LGA-YQB (Seasonal once preclearance opens)
DL JFK-YVR (seasonal to year round daily)
WS YYC-DTW (only DL hub not available from YYC and YQG is already being served from YYC)
WS YYC-BOS (DL focus city & many pax transiting between the two cities in YYZ alone)
WS YYZ-RDU (Q400 Encore, DL focus city)

enilria · Fri May 10, 2019 7:27 pm

Based on the past, when Delta has gone into a JV they have listed off planned service increases as a benefit of the JV and used it to get support for approval. Delta has only said SEA will vaguely benefit with this JV. So, IMHO I expect nearly nothing until well after this JV is implemented. I think this JV is a lot less defined in terms of what it will look like than all the others because WS is not a typical legacy alliance carrier.

RJNUT · Fri May 10, 2019 7:29 pm

I would like to see YQR and YQT -MSP with Encore

NCAD95 · Fri May 10, 2019 7:50 pm

DTW-YHZ on WS
DTW-YOW moving from DL to WS
DTW-YVR WS or DL
DTW-YYC WS

flymco753 · Fri May 10, 2019 8:06 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
DTW-YHZ on WS
DTW-YOW moving from DL to WS
DTW-YVR WS or DL
DTW-YYC WS

Lol they won't be the next AM at DTW, but I do see them doing Encore to YOW as the CRJ's are drawn down on top of YYC.

Dominion301 · Fri May 10, 2019 8:08 pm

NCAD95 wrote:
DTW-YHZ on WS
DTW-YOW moving from DL to WS
DTW-YVR WS or DL
DTW-YYC WS

I'd say none of these are likely except DTW-YVR.

If DTW-YHZ comes back, it'll be on DL metal. WS just dropped YHZ-BOS.

The aircraft on DTW-YOW rotate with YOW-LGA. WS aren't going to drop any YYZ-LGA for YOW-LGA.

DTW-YVR - NW used to operate seasonal Saturday service as I recall.

DTW-YYC, seriously? What sort of ties does Cowtown have with Motown (apart from the fact that oil for at least another decade fuels the majority of cars Detroit builds)? I think the seasonal YYC-YQG more than sufficiently covers that market.

YYZORD · Fri May 10, 2019 8:16 pm

DTW is the only DL hub not connected to YYC's WS hub. DL serves many destinations from DTW which WS pax can benefit from, not all traffic will go to only DTW, think of the connection opportunities.

Dominion301 wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
DTW-YHZ on WS
DTW-YOW moving from DL to WS
DTW-YVR WS or DL
DTW-YYC WS

I'd say none of these are likely except DTW-YVR.

If DTW-YHZ comes back, it'll be on DL metal. WS just dropped YHZ-BOS.

The aircraft on DTW-YOW rotate with YOW-LGA. WS aren't going to drop any YYZ-LGA for YOW-LGA.

DTW-YVR - NW used to operate seasonal Saturday service as I recall.

DTW-YYC, seriously? What sort of ties does Cowtown have with Motown (apart from the fact that oil for at least another decade fuels the majority of cars Detroit builds)? I think the seasonal YYC-YQG more than sufficiently covers that market.

MIflyer12 · Fri May 10, 2019 8:24 pm

YYZORD wrote:
DL or WS SEA-YYZ (possibility with A220, tech city and trans pacific hub)
DL LGA-YYZ (increase to current WS flights on that route as mentioned there will be increase on that route once JV is approved)
DL or WS YYZ-ORD (mentioned before to add flights on this route once JV is approved)
DL LAX-YYZ (no american carrier on this route and will help WS current flights)
DL LGA-YQB (Seasonal once preclearance opens)
DL JFK-YVR (seasonal to year round daily)
WS YYC-DTW (only DL hub not available from YYC and YQG is already being served from YYC)
WS YYC-BOS (DL focus city & many pax transiting between the two cities in YYZ alone)
WS YYZ-RDU (Q400 Encore, DL focus city)

SEA-YYZ? I doubt it. AC can run it hoping to siphon some TATL traffic out of SEA. For DL it's O&D. There's no meaningful demand SEA-Maritimes, and most other WS destinations from YYZ are already served by DL from DTW.

LGA-YYZ? Pretty good chance pending other uses for LGA slots.

YYZ-ORD? Oh, no, not into the maw of AC/UA, with relatively little DL activity at ORD.

LAX-YYZ? Only if the JV really pushes up demand on the route, which is already codeshared.

LGA-YQB? Again, dependent on other uses of LGA slots.

YYC-DTW? No need. There's little historic demand and DL/NW was always happy to run this thru MSP.

YYC-BOS? Can't imagine it. Calgary's not a medical town. Boston isn't an energy town.

YYZ-RDU? Eh. I don't see DL flyers excited about Q400 service.

YYZORD wrote:
DTW is the only DL hub not connected to YYC's WS hub. DL serves many destinations from DTW which WS pax can benefit from, not all traffic will go to only DTW, think of the connection opportunities.

Look at the destinations served by DL from DTW but not MSP and try to convince us there's demand to those destinations to/from YYC. Good luck.

Bobloblaw · Fri May 10, 2019 8:28 pm

Here we go again overestimating the value of this JV. YHZ-DTW on WS??? On what plane? Has anyone looked at the WS fleet plan?

Cubsrule · Fri May 10, 2019 8:40 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
YYZ-RDU? Eh. I don't see DL flyers excited about Q400 service.

They seem to do okay (not great) with Encore in BNA. I'm not sure why RDU would be any different. The problem for transborder Encore expansion at YYZ is gates. They are very limited on transborder regional gates. I feel like I saw something about some transborder flights moving to the infield terminal this summer, which will help some but will create a whole different set of problems.

YYZORD · Fri May 10, 2019 8:44 pm

Slots at LGA should increase once the airport is rebuilt 100% by 2022 which makes YYZ & YQB DL service very viable. LAX and ORD routes from YYZ have been discussed by both DL and WS for service increase thanks to the JV so for sure those are happening.

MIflyer12 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
DL or WS SEA-YYZ (possibility with A220, tech city and trans pacific hub)
DL LGA-YYZ (increase to current WS flights on that route as mentioned there will be increase on that route once JV is approved)
DL or WS YYZ-ORD (mentioned before to add flights on this route once JV is approved)
DL LAX-YYZ (no american carrier on this route and will help WS current flights)
DL LGA-YQB (Seasonal once preclearance opens)
DL JFK-YVR (seasonal to year round daily)
WS YYC-DTW (only DL hub not available from YYC and YQG is already being served from YYC)
WS YYC-BOS (DL focus city & many pax transiting between the two cities in YYZ alone)
WS YYZ-RDU (Q400 Encore, DL focus city)

SEA-YYZ? I doubt it. AC can run it hoping to siphon some TATL traffic out of SEA. For DL it's O&D. There's no meaningful demand SEA-Maritimes, and most other WS destinations from YYZ are already served by DL from DTW.

LGA-YYZ? Pretty good chance pending other uses for LGA slots.

YYZ-ORD? Oh, no, not into the maw of AC/UA, with relatively little DL activity at ORD.

LAX-YYZ? Only if the JV really pushes up demand on the route, which is already codeshared.

LGA-YQB? Again, dependent on other uses of LGA slots.

YYC-DTW? No need. There's little historic demand and DL/NW was always happy to run this thru MSP.

YYC-BOS? Can't imagine it. Calgary's not a medical town. Boston isn't an energy town.

YYZ-RDU? Eh. I don't see DL flyers excited about Q400 service.

YYZORD wrote:
DTW is the only DL hub not connected to YYC's WS hub. DL serves many destinations from DTW which WS pax can benefit from, not all traffic will go to only DTW, think of the connection opportunities.

Look at the destinations served by DL from DTW but not MSP and try to convince us there's demand to those destinations to/from YYC. Good luck.

YYZflyboy · Fri May 10, 2019 8:45 pm

Finally YYZ-SEA! If they had this at the beginning, transpacific flights would have been successful, especially the now-dead SEA-HKG! Combined with lots of tech companies around the GTA area, this flight could have been filled up with O&D and connecting traffic!

tkoenig95 · Fri May 10, 2019 8:57 pm

Does the WS YYC-AUS feed into the DL network? I was surprised to see the addition, even twice weekly seasonal.

whywhyzee · Fri May 10, 2019 9:25 pm

YYZflyboy wrote:
Finally YYZ-SEA! If they had this at the beginning, transpacific flights would have been successful, especially the now-dead SEA-HKG! Combined with lots of tech companies around the GTA area, this flight could have been filled up with O&D and connecting traffic!

I feel like that might be overstating it a bit, especially considering the volume of direct Asia flights already existing from YYZ.

On track with the topic, when the JV application was announced, Toronto-NYC/LA/Chicago were mentionned as focal targets, things change, but I'd say it's a reasonable assumption that they stand a fair chance. I get that DL doesn't have much presence at ORD, but it could be an opportunity for WS. Recall that YYZ-ORD is in the top 20 most served international routes world wide.

Midwestindy · Fri May 10, 2019 9:31 pm

tkoenig95 wrote:
Does the WS YYC-AUS feed into the DL network? I was surprised to see the addition, even twice weekly seasonal.

Why were you surprised? YYC-AUS was one of the largest unserved US routes from YYC, and AUS to Canada demand has been relatively untapped relative to the size of the market from AUS to Canada.

Cubsrule · Fri May 10, 2019 9:52 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
tkoenig95 wrote:
Does the WS YYC-AUS feed into the DL network? I was surprised to see the addition, even twice weekly seasonal.

Why were you surprised? YYC-AUS was one of the largest unserved US routes from YYC, and AUS to Canada demand has been relatively untapped relative to the size of the market from AUS to Canada.

Yup, and it doesn't really need any feed to survive. The market dynamic is pretty similar to YYC-BNA: good bidirectional tourism, some connections at YYC (although thanks to the new terminal, the connecting experience at YYC really sucks), some business.

Dominion301 · Fri May 10, 2019 9:57 pm

YYZORD wrote:
DTW is the only DL hub not connected to YYC's WS hub. DL serves many destinations from DTW which WS pax can benefit from, not all traffic will go to only DTW, think of the connection opportunities.

Dominion301 wrote:
NCAD95 wrote:
DTW-YHZ on WS
DTW-YOW moving from DL to WS
DTW-YVR WS or DL
DTW-YYC WS

I'd say none of these are likely except DTW-YVR.

If DTW-YHZ comes back, it'll be on DL metal. WS just dropped YHZ-BOS.

The aircraft on DTW-YOW rotate with YOW-LGA. WS aren't going to drop any YYZ-LGA for YOW-LGA.

DTW-YVR - NW used to operate seasonal Saturday service as I recall.

DTW-YYC, seriously? What sort of ties does Cowtown have with Motown (apart from the fact that oil for at least another decade fuels the majority of cars Detroit builds)? I think the seasonal YYC-YQG more than sufficiently covers that market.

Name me all the transborder destinations served thru DTW and not MSP where there are thousands of YYC/Western Canada O&D pax clamouring to get there on a 1-stop? The list is as short as this ________ blank space. Any YYC/Canada West-Motown O&D traffic not wanting to connect at MSP will continue to use the YQG nonstop and cross the Ambassador Bridge (or tunnel...or the Gordie Howe in a few years).

YYZORD · Fri May 10, 2019 10:00 pm

Any more unserved YYC routes that WS could add similar to AUS & BNA?

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
tkoenig95 wrote:
Does the WS YYC-AUS feed into the DL network? I was surprised to see the addition, even twice weekly seasonal.

Why were you surprised? YYC-AUS was one of the largest unserved US routes from YYC, and AUS to Canada demand has been relatively untapped relative to the size of the market from AUS to Canada.

Yup, and it doesn't really need any feed to survive. The market dynamic is pretty similar to YYC-BNA: good bidirectional tourism, some connections at YYC (although thanks to the new terminal, the connecting experience at YYC really sucks), some business.

Cubsrule · Fri May 10, 2019 10:06 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Any more unserved YYC routes that WS could add similar to AUS & BNA?

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Why were you surprised? YYC-AUS was one of the largest unserved US routes from YYC, and AUS to Canada demand has been relatively untapped relative to the size of the market from AUS to Canada.

Yup, and it doesn't really need any feed to survive. The market dynamic is pretty similar to YYC-BNA: good bidirectional tourism, some connections at YYC (although thanks to the new terminal, the connecting experience at YYC really sucks), some business.

I’m sort of surprised WS isn’t in MSY. The southbound tourism maybe isn’t quite as strong but there ought to be more (energy) business traffic.

Midwestindy · Fri May 10, 2019 10:08 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Any more unserved YYC routes that WS could add similar to AUS & BNA?

Cubsrule wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:

Why were you surprised? YYC-AUS was one of the largest unserved US routes from YYC, and AUS to Canada demand has been relatively untapped relative to the size of the market from AUS to Canada.

Yup, and it doesn't really need any feed to survive. The market dynamic is pretty similar to YYC-BNA: good bidirectional tourism, some connections at YYC (although thanks to the new terminal, the connecting experience at YYC really sucks), some business.

YYC-MSY is a sizable market, very similar to BNA and AUS, potentially more leisure oriented though.

klm617 · Fri May 10, 2019 10:31 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
DTW is the only DL hub not connected to YYC's WS hub. DL serves many destinations from DTW which WS pax can benefit from, not all traffic will go to only DTW, think of the connection opportunities.

Dominion301 wrote:

I'd say none of these are likely except DTW-YVR.

If DTW-YHZ comes back, it'll be on DL metal. WS just dropped YHZ-BOS.

The aircraft on DTW-YOW rotate with YOW-LGA. WS aren't going to drop any YYZ-LGA for YOW-LGA.

DTW-YVR - NW used to operate seasonal Saturday service as I recall.

DTW-YYC, seriously? What sort of ties does Cowtown have with Motown (apart from the fact that oil for at least another decade fuels the majority of cars Detroit builds)? I think the seasonal YYC-YQG more than sufficiently covers that market.

Name me all the transborder destinations served thru DTW and not MSP where there are thousands of YYC/Western Canada O&D pax clamouring to get there on a 1-stop? The list is as short as this ________ blank space. Any YYC/Canada West-Motown O&D traffic not wanting to connect at MSP will continue to use the YQG nonstop and cross the Ambassador Bridge (or tunnel...or the Gordie Howe in a few years).

Actually there was quite a bit of service out of DTW but Delta gutted the Detroit-Canada operation they served YYZ, YUL, YKF, YXU, YQB, YOW, YVR, YHZ and YYG

Dominion301 · Fri May 10, 2019 11:30 pm

klm617 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
DTW is the only DL hub not connected to YYC's WS hub. DL serves many destinations from DTW which WS pax can benefit from, not all traffic will go to only DTW, think of the connection opportunities.

Name me all the transborder destinations served thru DTW and not MSP where there are thousands of YYC/Western Canada O&D pax clamouring to get there on a 1-stop? The list is as short as this ________ blank space. Any YYC/Canada West-Motown O&D traffic not wanting to connect at MSP will continue to use the YQG nonstop and cross the Ambassador Bridge (or tunnel...or the Gordie Howe in a few years).

Actually there was quite a bit of service out of DTW but Delta gutted the Detroit-Canada operation they served YYZ, YUL, YKF, YXU, YQB, YOW, YVR, YHZ and YYG

The only non-Florida transborder service YKF ever had was AA to ORD. YOW, YUL & YYZ from that list DL still serves of course.

klm617 · Fri May 10, 2019 11:36 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:

Name me all the transborder destinations served thru DTW and not MSP where there are thousands of YYC/Western Canada O&D pax clamouring to get there on a 1-stop? The list is as short as this ________ blank space. Any YYC/Canada West-Motown O&D traffic not wanting to connect at MSP will continue to use the YQG nonstop and cross the Ambassador Bridge (or tunnel...or the Gordie Howe in a few years).

Actually there was quite a bit of service out of DTW but Delta gutted the Detroit-Canada operation they served YYZ, YUL, YKF, YXU, YQB, YOW, YVR, YHZ and YYG

The only non-Florida transborder service YKF ever had was AA to ORD. YOW, YUL & YYZ from that list DL still serves of course.

Mesaba served DTW-YKF with the SF340. 2/3 of our Canada service was dropped.

Cubsrule · Fri May 10, 2019 11:41 pm

klm617 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
DTW is the only DL hub not connected to YYC's WS hub. DL serves many destinations from DTW which WS pax can benefit from, not all traffic will go to only DTW, think of the connection opportunities.

Name me all the transborder destinations served thru DTW and not MSP where there are thousands of YYC/Western Canada O&D pax clamouring to get there on a 1-stop? The list is as short as this ________ blank space. Any YYC/Canada West-Motown O&D traffic not wanting to connect at MSP will continue to use the YQG nonstop and cross the Ambassador Bridge (or tunnel...or the Gordie Howe in a few years).

Actually there was quite a bit of service out of DTW but Delta gutted the Detroit-Canada operation they served YYZ, YUL, YKF, YXU, YQB, YOW, YVR, YHZ and YYG

I’m not sure I understand this criticism. Like Dominion301 pointed out. YYZ, YUL, and YOW are still around and YKF never was. DL is out of YXU (which I don’t think ever saw jet service), YQB, and YYG and only serves YHZ seasonally. So aren’t we basically just talking about YVR and arguably YHZ if we are talking about something DTW-specific?

Dominion301 · Fri May 10, 2019 11:46 pm

klm617 wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
klm617 wrote:

Actually there was quite a bit of service out of DTW but Delta gutted the Detroit-Canada operation they served YYZ, YUL, YKF, YXU, YQB, YOW, YVR, YHZ and YYG

The only non-Florida transborder service YKF ever had was AA to ORD. YOW, YUL & YYZ from that list DL still serves of course.

Mesaba served DTW-YKF with the SF340. 2/3 of our Canada service was dropped.

As yes I had forgotten about that. Well YXU & YKF went away with the Saab, while YHZ & YYJ went away with the disappearance of the CRJ440.

YQB is the most likely one to come back.

YYZORD · Fri May 10, 2019 11:57 pm

WS could maybe consider YYC-MCI along with YYC-MSY due to the oil and energy business relations and MCI has tourism equal to MSY, AUS, and BNA. I would say OKC or ABQ for the oil relations but even YYZ doesn't have direct flights to those places so that's why I didn't add them.

winginit · Sat May 11, 2019 12:01 am

YYZORD wrote:
It may be close to the approval of the DL & WS JV, I remember someone mentioning on here that the proposed JV will get approved either this month or June.

How sure are we that the proposed DL/WS JV is going to be approved without concessions? I recall back when the AC/UA transborder JV was approved there were notable concessions regarding overlapping markets.

DiamondFlyer · Sat May 11, 2019 12:03 am

I would anticipate to see most routes that are operated by Delta Connection to either be upgauged to mainline WS/DL, or moved to Encore Q400s, just like what happened in Mexico. Shortly after the AM/DL JV most of the Delta Connection flying to Mexico was converted to Aeromexico Connect, as the foreign regional jets don’t count against regional jet scope in the Delta pilot contract.

NWADTWE16 · Sat May 11, 2019 12:22 am

the typical negative nancys can flame all they want, I see DTW-YYC, DTW-YVR once daily for both would be nice, and I keep thinking DTW-YYZ should be intermingled with Encore, or WJ 737. Would love to see YOW too but in that order is my expectations YYC/YVR/YYZ/YOW

edmountain · Sat May 11, 2019 12:34 am

Do all joint ventures create something from nothing the way this one is being forecast to?

RWA380 · Sat May 11, 2019 2:25 am

YYZflyboy wrote:
Finally YYZ-SEA! If they had this at the beginning, transpacific flights would have been successful, especially the now-dead SEA-HKG! Combined with lots of tech companies around the GTA area, this flight could have been filled up with O&D and connecting traffic!

Are you suggesting that DL would not have cancelled SEA-HKG, if they had a SEA-YYZ flight? That the connecting traffic from this one important Canadian destination, would have made the difference, salvaging any DL cuts T-PAC out of SEA?

Especially as another poster mentioned, the large amount of availability on non-stop flights & the subsequent consideration all viable connecting points, namely YVR that already carry the traffic between these two points. I believe that may be quite the stretch.

orcajet · Sat May 11, 2019 3:09 am

I would add the possibility of seeing SLC-YYC on mainline, probably, WS metal, currently it is just 1-2 OO/CP RJs a day, if the entire SLC regional operation is carrying WS codeshares there’s a lot of connection opportunities unique to SLC where SEA is way out of the way/not an option. AC and UA funnel a ton of pax through DEN in a similar fashion, albeit with a slightly more robust O/D market.

lavalampluva · Sat May 11, 2019 3:15 am

NWADTWE16 wrote:
the typical negative nancys can flame all they want, I see DTW-YYC, DTW-YVR once daily for both would be nice, and I keep thinking DTW-YYZ should be intermingled with Encore, or WJ 737. Would love to see YOW too but in that order is my expectations YYC/YVR/YYZ/YOW

Turn DTW into a WS hub. :lol:

Bobloblaw · Sat May 11, 2019 3:48 am

edmountain wrote:
Do all joint ventures create something from nothing the way this one is being forecast to?

No. Especially since AC/UA will also have a JV. What WS stands to gain is they won’t lose as much as they would otherwise without a JV. Traffic doesn’t explode, what happens is the JV captures most of the existing traffic but that will be negated by UA /AC which will be much bigger than DL/WS. Most of the forecasted routes won’t be viable and WS doesn’t aircraft to cover all the posters new routes anyways.

LAX772LR · Sat May 11, 2019 4:00 am

Midwestindy wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Any more unserved YYC routes that WS could add similar to AUS & BNA?
Cubsrule wrote:
Yup, and it doesn't really need any feed to survive. The market dynamic is pretty similar to YYC-BNA: good bidirectional tourism, some connections at YYC (although thanks to the new terminal, the connecting experience at YYC really sucks), some business.

YYC-MSY is a sizable market, very similar to BNA and AUS, potentially more leisure oriented though.

One advantage that MSY may have though, is that it's also an oil/energy city.

Granted, it's ceded much of what it once had to IAH, but there's still considerable energy business in NOLA metro, and YYC is Canada's IAH.... so that could bolster the corporate angle for such a flight. It's generally not hard to fill the Y cabin to MSY from anywhere, so there's that too.

n2dru · Sat May 11, 2019 4:04 am

lavalampluva wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
the typical negative nancys can flame all they want, I see DTW-YYC, DTW-YVR once daily for both would be nice, and I keep thinking DTW-YYZ should be intermingled with Encore, or WJ 737. Would love to see YOW too but in that order is my expectations YYC/YVR/YYZ/YOW

Turn DTW into a WS hub.

Certain posters would LOVE that! :-)

DL747400 · Sat May 11, 2019 4:05 am

YYZORD wrote:
Slots at LGA should increase once the airport is rebuilt 100% by 2022 which makes YYZ & YQB DL service very viable. LAX and ORD routes from YYZ have been discussed by both DL and WS for service increase thanks to the JV so for sure those are happening.

How does rebuilding LGA's landside terminals and airside concourses equate to additional takeoff and landing slots? :?:

There are no additional runways being constructed, nor are the existing LGA runways being rebuilt or reconfigured to my knowledge.

YYZORD · Sat May 11, 2019 4:15 am

Aren't they increasing the taxiways and gates? I didn't assume the only reason they don't have slots is cause of the runway alone.

DL747400 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Slots at LGA should increase once the airport is rebuilt 100% by 2022 which makes YYZ & YQB DL service very viable. LAX and ORD routes from YYZ have been discussed by both DL and WS for service increase thanks to the JV so for sure those are happening.

How does rebuilding LGA's landside terminals and airside concourses equate to additional takeoff and landing slots? There are no additional runways being constructed, nor are the existing LGA runways being rebuilt or reconfigured to my knowledge.

AWNP · Sat May 11, 2019 4:26 am

winginit wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
It may be close to the approval of the DL & WS JV, I remember someone mentioning on here that the proposed JV will get approved either this month or June.

How sure are we that the proposed DL/WS JV is going to be approved without concessions? I recall back when the AC/UA transborder JV was approved there were notable concessions regarding overlapping markets.

The only overlapping market is NY to YYZ, and different airports at that. AC/UA were coming from a much more dominant position.

GSP psgr · Sat May 11, 2019 5:08 am

Makes Too Much Sense Not To
YQR/YXE-MSP
YEG-SLC/SEA

Would Not Fall Over In Shock
YWG-DTW (NW Airlink flew this one back in the day)
YYC/YVR-DTW
YVR-JFK

ANA787 · Sat May 11, 2019 5:28 am

Noticed WestJet has added PDX-YYC. Delta appears to be codesharing on this route.

Jayce · Sat May 11, 2019 5:57 am

GSP psgr wrote:
Makes Too Much Sense Not To
YQR/YXE-MSP
YEG-SLC/SEA

Would Not Fall Over In Shock
YWG-DTW (NW Airlink flew this one back in the day)
YYC/YVR-DTW
YVR-JFK

DL operates a summer seasonal red-eye from YVR-JFK, but I also wouldn’t fall over shocked if this goes year-round. AC operates a 787 from YVR to EWR and CX runs a 777; I’m sure WS could at least fill a -700 in the off season.

notdownnlocked · Sat May 11, 2019 6:09 am

We will see DL fly ATL-YYZ and we will see WS fly all other routes. DL continues to morph into a shuttle service to their JV partners.

klm617 · Sat May 11, 2019 12:34 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
the typical negative nancys can flame all they want, I see DTW-YYC, DTW-YVR once daily for both would be nice, and I keep thinking DTW-YYZ should be intermingled with Encore, or WJ 737. Would love to see YOW too but in that order is my expectations YYC/YVR/YYZ/YOW

Turn DTW into a WS hub.

Considering that DTW is the best connection point to Eastern Canada from most of Delta network and the largest USA Canada border why would they not significantly build their Detroit to Canada network.

longhauler · Sat May 11, 2019 12:42 pm

notdownnlocked wrote:
We will see DL fly ATL-YYZ and we will see WS fly all other routes. DL continues to morph into a shuttle service to their JV partners.

It really depends on what contractual agreements they have with their pilots. I would imagine Delta's pilots would not take too kindly to another airline flying their previous routes.

Canadian Airlines / American Airlines ran into that with their JV in the past. It was all done by a ratio and that ratio could not be altered. When AA stopped flying YVR-SJC (for example), CP had to stop flying one of their YYZ-LGA r/ts.

The UA/AC JV was only just approved in the past few months. We'll see how they handle that issue.

longhauler · Sat May 11, 2019 12:48 pm

klm617 wrote:
Considering that DTW is the best connection point to Eastern Canada from most of Delta network and the largest USA Canada border why would they not significantly build their Detroit to Canada network.

If we acknowledge that no new traffic would likely be generated, one has to wonder if this could not be accommodated through another city, like MSP, ATL, JFK, or even YYZ and YUL to eastern Canada. I think that has been DTW's biggest downfall. Even though centrally located, DL has so many other capable hubs/focus cities that can "do the job".

klm617 · Sat May 11, 2019 12:57 pm

longhauler wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Considering that DTW is the best connection point to Eastern Canada from most of Delta network and the largest USA Canada border why would they not significantly build their Detroit to Canada network.

If we acknowledge that no new traffic would likely be generated, one has to wonder if this could not be accommodated through another city, like MSP, ATL, JFK, or even YYZ and YUL to eastern Canada. I think that has been DTW's biggest downfall. Even though centrally located, DL has so many other capable hubs/focus cities that can "do the job".

Yes but is a DL customer flying from SAN to YYZ why make them transit at MSP or ATL when DTW is the most logical connection point. If we say that about DTW than the same can be used to justify adding connections through DTW to Western Canda which is better served through MSP. It is interesting that many posters on a.net can rationalize when Detroit doesn't get expanded service but can understand when flights are added to every other hub in the Delta network. No other Delta hub can get the job better done than DTW when going from the Western USA to to Eastern Canada.

Bingo1 · Sat May 11, 2019 1:47 pm

Is this the DTW fanboy club or the WS/DL JV discussion?

I have lived in three of the four Western provinces and I have no clue where this idea that "now DTW will have service everywhere in Canada" comes from. I love the DTW airport but it simply won't be connected in any meaningful way to Western Canada in the foreseeable future

Overall the best airport for connections from Western Canada to the eastern half of the USA is Delta's hub up the road in MSP. Couple that with WS serving Atlanta and NYC and there is no spot in the Eastern half of the USA with any meaningful ties to Western Canada that isn't currently served without good to very good connections.

I could possibly see Encore feeding a little into Detroit from Eastern Canada but I'm not convinced of that either. The NWA/DL brand is nowhere near as strong in Canada as it was a decade or more ago. Even in Winnipeg, where you have the most loyal of NWA/DL cities, DL has lost significant market share.

cirrusdragoon · Sat May 11, 2019 2:16 pm

I have a feeling , Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis/St Paul, Salt Lake City and Seattle will be areas the two will coordinate.

Other key markets where the carriers could potentially expand , New York-Toronto, Los Angeles-Toronto and Los Angeles-Vancouver. All of these markets are either served by Delta or WestJet today anyways.

OzarkD9S · Sat May 11, 2019 2:30 pm

Bingo1 wrote:

Is this the DTW fanboy club or the WS/DL JV discussion?

Since the DTW thread was locked due to the usual ridiculousness, they have to go somewhere else now.

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