Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Ishrion wrote:Is the DXB runway construction still going on
worldranger wrote:Yes, until end of May.
In this years EK results, interesting to see in Chairman’s remarks the negative effect on the EK model of point to point with ULR pairings and how the airline had to change.
Merge already....build DWC ....or the downward trend will continue.
behramjee wrote:Emirates announces a -69% drop in net profits for the financial year 2018-19 ending on 31mar.
worldranger wrote:the negative effect on the EK model of point to point with ULR pairings and how the airline had to change.
DL747400 wrote:behramjee wrote:Emirates announces a -69% drop in net profits for the financial year 2018-19 ending on 31mar.
Yes, higher oil prices are hitting them EK harder than others, especially with their large fleet of fuel sucking 4-engined A380s. Perhaps sharply lower profit is a result of ineffective inventory management and overcapacity? Are we seeing the levels to which EK has had to lower fares in recent months in order to fill empty seats?
It has nothing to do with the A380.
emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..It has nothing to do with the A380.
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..It has nothing to do with the A380.
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
airbazar wrote:emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..It has nothing to do with the A380.
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
CriticalPoint wrote:I think the 787 and A350 have also hurt EK. The ability to fly non stop eliminated the appeal of EK and a stop over in Dubai.
emiratesdriver wrote:airbazar wrote:emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
airbazar, so EK are just using the 380 the wrong way then? perhaps you should contact little Tim? Maybe he will listen to your words of wisdom as opposed to everyone else.
Aquila3 wrote:Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.
BAorAB wrote:Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!
point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business!
Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.
Aquila3 wrote:emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..It has nothing to do with the A380.
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.
airbazar wrote:emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..It has nothing to do with the A380.
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
xwb777 wrote:BAorAB wrote:Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!
point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business!
Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.
Emirates won't be taking delivery of the B787-10.
BAorAB wrote:Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!
point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business!
Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:xwb777 wrote:BAorAB wrote:Emirates will be just fine! The mere fact that they can turn a profit with current oil prices and without their optimal planned fleet in place is a testament in itself. Flying around 100+ A380's and being a profitable airline should be worth commending itself. Imagine where profits will go once the (150) 779's,(30) A359's, A339's and (40)787x's come online, which are all planned, albeit the A339's seem suspect, I expect this part of the Airbus order to end up like the A380 top up order, Dead!
point to point all over the globe with 150+ 777x's and 70 78X's and A359's is going to be an upcoming efficient and smooth operation. Expect them to keep 50 A380's for routes like LHR, MAN, SFO, LAX JFK, SYD where they can fill them easily. Emirates may be in the worst spot they will ever be in regards to fleet mix, and still being able to turn a profit means things will only get better. And imagine how much better once Etihad finally goes out of business!
Although they seriously need to do something about their 777 business class product. With BA finally upgrading EK and LH may end up with the worst products in the market.
Emirates won't be taking delivery of the B787-10.
Is that confirmed? Nothing seems to have been said either way?
lightsaber wrote:It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W.
xwb777 wrote:
As per the announcement, The first B777-9 will start arriving next year. The A330NEO and A350 will start arriving in 2021 & 2024 respectively, along with 14 A380s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results
FrenchPotatoEye wrote:xwb777 wrote:
As per the announcement, The first B777-9 will start arriving next year. The A330NEO and A350 will start arriving in 2021 & 2024 respectively, along with 14 A380s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results
But that says the A33neo/A359 are commitments - no different to the 787s? They could suffer the same fate.
Nor does it say that the 787 mou is gone?
Who knows. Very odd.
xwb777 wrote:FrenchPotatoEye wrote:xwb777 wrote:
As per the announcement, The first B777-9 will start arriving next year. The A330NEO and A350 will start arriving in 2021 & 2024 respectively, along with 14 A380s.
https://www.emirates.com/media-centre/e ... 19-results
But that says the A33neo/A359 are commitments - no different to the 787s? They could suffer the same fate.
Nor does it say that the 787 mou is gone?
Who knows. Very odd.
In their financial statement they have mentioned the A330s and A350s. No word on the B787. https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/r ... t_2019.pdf
The A330NEOs will be doing similar missions as the B787.
Strato2 wrote:lightsaber wrote:It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W.
Not in an apples to apples configuration. The 77W needs to be crammed with seats (10-abreast) to be able to live with the Superjumbo.
ASA wrote:Aquila3 wrote:Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.
I would say, either you haven't flown the average ones, or you haven't flown EK ...
Ask yourself which came first ... EK's success or the A380s? There lies the answer
AA777223 wrote:Aquila3 wrote:emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.
I think the better question is who wants to fly EK in J without the A380. Their J product is incredibly subpar on the 777. It has always amazed me how much people gush over EK in J, with that nasty 2-3-2 angled lie flat. Ugh...
lightsaber wrote:airbazar wrote:emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
No.
The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.
Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.
EK is no longer the boogyman. They ran out of prime time (most profitable) slots at DXB. FZ only works on a few routes without connections. DWC cannot be expanded without EK profits as the subsidize Dubai (not the other way around).
I've posted for years the way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them. IST/SAW (TK/Pegasus)
and ADD (ET) have started. It amazes me that after so long India hasn't built the infrastructure and modified policy and taxes to be the hub. Meh...
EK's best years are in the rearview mirror. Cest la vie. Eventually QR and EY will have to adopt reality which will ease EK's plight. Jet's shutdown will provide perhaps 15 months of relief. But then, as better run (more efficient) competition becomes established, it will become tougher for EK.
Lightsaber
Aquila3 wrote:But even for people that seldom fly, they like EK because of the 380. They identify EK with the 380. Or do you think they like to be crammed 10 ab. on a 777 or spending 2+ hours on a bus plus another hour walking while switching at DXB? I am not saying that it will be always like that, but without 380 there will be better alternatives to EK. I have flown to PK with QR recently. Better hub, better plane that the old stinky EK 777, better price....
TK has a ton of options for near East, is a Star, better food and booze, should I go on? The only advantage I can see for EK flying Y is the 380 comfort. Gone that, they better find something else or they are in real troubles.
Aquila3 wrote:ASA wrote:Aquila3 wrote:Tell me a reason why one should fly Emirates without the A380 (in Y).
Without them EK will be an airline like all the others, and quite an average one, I would say.
I would say, either you haven't flown the average ones, or you haven't flown EK ...
Ask yourself which came first ... EK's success or the A380s? There lies the answer
I do not know what you mean.
I am back from DXB from just a couple of days.
I fly my 20 or 30 roundtrips a year, and I do my comparisons. Until couple of years ago EU to Asia for me was almost always EK. I have flown all the average ones that I could think of including the US3.
But even for people that seldom fly, they like EK because of the 380. They identify EK with the 380. Or do you think they like to be crammed 10 ab. on a 777 or spending 2+ hours on a bus plus another hour walking while switching at DXB? I am not saying that it will be always like that, but without 380 there will be better alternatives to EK. I have flown to PK with QR recently. Better hub, better plane that the old stinky EK 777, better price....
TK has a ton of options for near East, is a Star, better food and booze, should I go on? The only advantage I can see for EK flying Y is the 380 comfort. Gone that, they better find something else or they are in real troubles.
strfyr51 wrote:lightsaber wrote:airbazar wrote:
Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
No.
The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.
Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.
EK is no longer the boogyman. They ran out of prime time (most profitable) slots at DXB. FZ only works on a few routes without connections. DWC cannot be expanded without EK profits as the subsidize Dubai (not the other way around).
I've posted for years the way to compete against the ME3 is to bypass them. IST/SAW (TK/Pegasus)
and ADD (ET) have started. It amazes me that after so long India hasn't built the infrastructure and modified policy and taxes to be the hub. Meh...
EK's best years are in the rearview mirror. Cest la vie. Eventually QR and EY will have to adopt reality which will ease EK's plight. Jet's shutdown will provide perhaps 15 months of relief. But then, as better run (more efficient) competition becomes established, it will become tougher for EK.
Lightsaber
so what EXACTLY is the A380's Yield at EK? what is the Load factor and Break even? If you don't know that? Then you can't say JACK!!
ScottB wrote:Aquila3 wrote:But even for people that seldom fly, they like EK because of the 380. They identify EK with the 380. Or do you think they like to be crammed 10 ab. on a 777 or spending 2+ hours on a bus plus another hour walking while switching at DXB? I am not saying that it will be always like that, but without 380 there will be better alternatives to EK. I have flown to PK with QR recently. Better hub, better plane that the old stinky EK 777, better price....
TK has a ton of options for near East, is a Star, better food and booze, should I go on? The only advantage I can see for EK flying Y is the 380 comfort. Gone that, they better find something else or they are in real troubles.
But the question in the end is if they can charge more than the competition (TK, QR) for the comfort of economy on the A380. Or if they can even charge more than they'd be able to when operating the 777. For Y passengers, especially infrequent flyers, the A380 might sway a decision if the price is the same, but if a $10 price difference gives the competitor the sale, they're not really gaining much of an advantage by offering a wider seat.
strfyr51 wrote:so what EXACTLY is the A380's Yield at EK? what is the Load factor and Break even? If you don't know that? Then you can't say JACK!!
emiratesdriver wrote:And....get rid of the excess 70 or so “very profitable” A380 profit makers in favour of something a bit less comfy.
DL747400 wrote:Yes, higher oil prices are hitting them EK harder than others, especially with their large fleet of fuel sucking 4-engined A380s. Perhaps sharply lower profit is a result of ineffective inventory management and overcapacity? Are we seeing the levels to which EK has had to lower fares in recent months in order to fill empty seats?
airbazar wrote:The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
lightsaber wrote:Do recall this is partially due to the failed Trent PIP comparing to a very successful series of GE-90 PIPs. So not completely Apples to Apples. But that is why aircraft and engines must be PIPed and volume pays for PIPs.
zeke wrote:Instead of blaming the aircraft people need to understand how EK grew.
Essentially EK got to where it is today by taking market share from other airlines with lower prices, and accepting slightly lower yields (margin) with more volume. Look at Europe/Australia traffic EK took away around 20% of traffic from QF and SQ, and 10% from MH and TG. Those airlines hurt a lot in the process (contracted), there was not a significant increase in growth in passenger numbers.
Now EK is finding itself a victim of the same strategy with excess capacity from other carriers in the region taking away EK passengers, they are reducing yields more to keep the load factors.
Reducing volume is not going to help, the yield has already been reduced through competition.
TK will repeat the same cycle as EK had, and SQ before that in a race to the bottom.
But the aim EK, and SQ before that is not to look at those businesses in isolation. Both are responsible for a significant kick to the GDP through the tourism and business they bring to their cities.
Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.
zeke wrote:...
Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.
zeke wrote:Instead of blaming the aircraft people need to understand how EK grew.
Essentially EK got to where it is today by taking market share from other airlines with lower prices, and accepting slightly lower yields (margin) with more volume. Look at Europe/Australia traffic EK took away around 20% of traffic from QF and SQ, and 10% from MH and TG. Those airlines hurt a lot in the process (contracted), there was not a significant increase in growth in passenger numbers.
Now EK is finding itself a victim of the same strategy with excess capacity from other carriers in the region taking away EK passengers, they are reducing yields more to keep the load factors.
Reducing volume is not going to help, the yield has already been reduced through competition.
TK will repeat the same cycle as EK had, and SQ before that in a race to the bottom.
But the aim EK, and SQ before that is not to look at those businesses in isolation. Both are responsible for a significant kick to the GDP through the tourism and business they bring to their cities.
Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.
lightsaber wrote:airbazar wrote:emiratesdriver wrote:Airbazar..
Which is the exact opposite of what the pre-announcement management briefing detailed, moreover there has been an admission of sorts that the fleet mix has been wrong for some time and that the focus will continue to shift from additional capacity to improving yield.
Expect the acceleration of the A380 leaving EK service based on what I’ve seen today.
Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
No.
The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.
Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.
airbazar wrote:...
I think we're both saying the same thing. As long as they can fill 500 seats at decent yields the A380 is best. But once the competition caught up, their ego (only the biggest will do), and arrogance (no one will be able to compete with us), left them with a fleet mix that's unsuitable for today's environment.
And yes, they will be fine going forward. They just won't be experiencing the kind of growth that everyone is used to.
airbazar wrote:lightsaber wrote:airbazar wrote:
Those are 2 different things. The A380 is still the most fuel efficient way to transport 500 passengers in relative comfort, over 5000nm. If EK can't fill all the seats, that's not the A380's problem.
The whole world knew the fleet mix has been wrong for a decade. The A380 was not designed to operate routes like DXB-JED. Their ego, bad business decisions, and declining product is why their profits are declining.
No.
The A380 is more cost effective to transport a passenger 5000nm thanks to efficiencies moving so many people at once. It used a tiny amount more fuel than a 77W. So unless you think the 787-10, A358, A350-1000, and 779 are totally botched, it is the wrong fleet mix. Recall the A388 losses floor space in EK's configuration for fa rest. Other aircraft use the crown. SQ sacrifices cargo for crew rest.
Where the A380 thrives is very high premium markets. Until the 779 arrives. At that point the profit per flight, with or without the network effect, shifts to the large Boeing.
I think we're both saying the same thing. As long as they can fill 500 seats at decent yields the A380 is best. But once the competition caught up, their ego (only the biggest will do), and arrogance (no one will be able to compete with us), left them with a fleet mix that's unsuitable for today's environment.
And yes, they will be fine going forward. They just won't be experiencing the kind of growth that everyone is used to.
zeke wrote:Instead of blaming the aircraft people need to understand how EK grew.
Essentially EK got to where it is today by taking market share from other airlines with lower prices, and accepting slightly lower yields (margin) with more volume. Look at Europe/Australia traffic EK took away around 20% of traffic from QF and SQ, and 10% from MH and TG. Those airlines hurt a lot in the process (contracted), there was not a significant increase in growth in passenger numbers.
Now EK is finding itself a victim of the same strategy with excess capacity from other carriers in the region taking away EK passengers, they are reducing yields more to keep the load factors.
Reducing volume is not going to help, the yield has already been reduced through competition.
TK will repeat the same cycle as EK had, and SQ before that in a race to the bottom.
But the aim EK, and SQ before that is not to look at those businesses in isolation. Both are responsible for a significant kick to the GDP through the tourism and business they bring to their cities.
Reducing the number of passengers visiting DXB using smaller aircraft will hurt many businesses in the city. A strategic view needs to be taken.
Galwayman wrote:EK not getting 787 , best news ever for loyal EK customers hurrah ...