KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace!?

bear7 · Tue May 07, 2019 12:50 am

In light of the recent missile launches WHY is KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace on flights to Japan!? I was researching flights to Osaka/Nagoya and the following flights it looks like consistently use NK airspace:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 7#2069e28c
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#20696fdf
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#2069b829
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 9#206a107d
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 7#20644558
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 7#206552a6

Personally I would not be comfortable flying over NK airspace and will be instead making a connection in ICN, PEK or NRT/HND for this trip.

Planes4you · Tue May 07, 2019 3:23 am

This isn’t new a few European flights have been flying been flying over NK for awhile.Also what routing would you suggest?

LAXdude1023 · Tue May 07, 2019 3:33 am

I flew NRT-PEK back in 2012. We flew over Kaesong and Pyongyang. I don’t think it’s that unusual. I remember looking out the window and seeing no lights for most of North Korea.

YIMBY · Tue May 07, 2019 3:34 am

Is it for political or safety reasons?

We may not enter the discussion which are politically correct countries to fly over.
There are quite many other countries that launch missiles, too. At least North Korea is not targeting foreign civil airplanes.

5427247845 · Tue May 07, 2019 3:35 am

Why wouldn’t they? It isn’t a war zone (although some would love to change that) and the North Koreans aren’t that stupid to shoot an airliner out of the sky.

b747400erf · Tue May 07, 2019 3:43 am

marcelh wrote:
Why wouldn’t they? It isn’t a war zone (although some would love to change that) and the North Koreans aren’t that stupid to shoot an airliner out of the sky.

It is a war zone, technically both sides are still at war, like the Israeli-Syrian conflict has no official end yet.
On the east coast this is right near where NK just fired more missiles.
They may not be stupid but they have been known to be desperate to pull political stunts for attention and in anger
What could possibly go wrong??

TWA772LR · Tue May 07, 2019 4:09 am

Didnt NK open the Pyongyang FIR to foreign carriers not too long ago?

UPlog · Tue May 07, 2019 4:11 am

As pilot for a US airline with significant Pacific ops, I have no qualms about flying through North Korea.
The several times I did it in the past they were extremely professional without any issue. Actually I’d fly through North Korea any day versus the mess China can be instead.

SkyVoice · Tue May 07, 2019 4:59 am

During the Cold War, all of these carriers--KL, LH & AY--did quite a bit of business behind the Iron Curtain, so I am not surprised that they now ply their trade in the airspace of the Hermit Kingdom. BTW, which ATC Center do they contact while flying over NK?

janders · Tue May 07, 2019 5:10 am

SkyVoice wrote:
BTW, which ATC Center do they contact while flying over NK?

Pyongyang FIR (ZKKP)

rlwynn · Tue May 07, 2019 5:41 am

As I write this there is Air Canada 061 right over the middle of North Korea.

LAXBUR · Tue May 07, 2019 5:56 am

bear7 wrote:
In light of the recent missile launches WHY is KLM, Lufthansa & Finnair using North Korean airspace on flights to Japan!? I was researching flights to Osaka/Nagoya and the following flights it looks like consistently use NK airspace:
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 7#2069e28c
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 2#20696fdf
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 6#2069b829
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 9#206a107d
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 7#20644558
https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 7#206552a6

Personally I would not be comfortable flying over NK airspace and will be instead making a connection in ICN, PEK or NRT/HND for this trip.

You do know that Seoul is very close to the DMZ? So North Korea could blow up the airport while you’re making a connection. That’s more likely to happen than shooting a random European airliner out of the sky over their airspace intentionally or not. :roll:

hooverman · Tue May 07, 2019 6:21 am

I think it is stupid. KL should know better. The dutch have a traumatic experience with the MH17 shot down above Ukraine which cost many Dutch and other lives.
This could cause quit a stir in the media if they found out.

rlwynn · Tue May 07, 2019 6:27 am

DL159 flew right through the middle of NK.

ushermittwoch · Tue May 07, 2019 6:37 am

hooverman wrote:
I think it is stupid. KL should know better. The dutch have a traumatic experience with the MH17 shot down above Ukraine which cost many Dutch and other lives.
This could cause quit a stir in the media if they found out.

Fake outrage much?

hooverman · Tue May 07, 2019 6:56 am

ushermittwoch wrote:
hooverman wrote:
I think it is stupid. KL should know better. The dutch have a traumatic experience with the MH17 shot down above Ukraine which cost many Dutch and other lives.
This could cause quit a stir in the media if they found out.

Fake outrage much?

Not really. Flying over a country that launches missles without NOTAM’s is not a smart thing to do.
The MH17 disaster is still a very sensitive subject in The Netherlands.
There is still a debate going on why airlines where flying over the Ukraine when just days before missles where fired at military aircraft.

Flyingsottsman · Tue May 07, 2019 7:03 am

Over flights would make money for the NK regime from airlines using their flight space, I think its mainly Korean Air, OZ, and any other South Korean registered airline or aircraft that would have big problems using NK airspace, just like El AL in the Middle East.

VSMUT · Tue May 07, 2019 7:06 am

hooverman wrote:
ushermittwoch wrote:
hooverman wrote:
I think it is stupid. KL should know better. The dutch have a traumatic experience with the MH17 shot down above Ukraine which cost many Dutch and other lives.
This could cause quit a stir in the media if they found out.

Fake outrage much?

Not really. Flying over a country that launches missles without NOTAM’s is not a smart thing to do.
The MH17 disaster is still a very sensitive subject in The Netherlands.
There is still a debate going on why airlines where flying over the Ukraine when just days before missles where fired at military aircraft.

Pretty sure they don't let any airliners anywhere close to the missile test ranges, NOTAM or not. Thats just an invitation for the US (or any foreign power) to outfit an airliner with discreet snooping equipment and get close diagnostics of secret military technology.

BTW, Sweden has a pretty active missile test range too. Do you actively avoid them too? This is just fake outrage.

opticalilyushin · Tue May 07, 2019 7:17 am

Jeez with the comments on here i wonder if you guys also avoid Russian, Israeli, Saudi airspace etc. Unless you happen to be a South Korean or rogue USAF jet nothing is going to happen, and even then it's questionable if anything would happen. North Korea isn't stupid, they know what would happen if they did engage..

LAXBUR · Tue May 07, 2019 7:22 am

Crimea was an ACTIVE war zone.

North Korea isn’t going to shoot down extra cash.

People just want something to be dramatic and irrational about.

c933103 · Tue May 07, 2019 7:46 am

Flyingsottsman wrote:
Over flights would make money for the NK regime from airlines using their flight space, I think its mainly Korean Air, OZ, and any other South Korean registered airline or aircraft that would have big problems using NK airspace, just like El AL in the Middle East.

I don't think so as the current South Korean regime is friendly to North Korea and North Korea also want to emphasis this relationship in their propaganda.

Max Q · Tue May 07, 2019 8:09 am

janders wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
BTW, which ATC Center do they contact while flying over NK?

Pyongyang FIR (ZKKP)

What does the red line denote ?

airbuster · Tue May 07, 2019 8:19 am

KLM to my understanding only use 3 airways that run over sea to the east of the peninsula. Also the airspace outside these airways shall not be planned and only entered for contingency reasons.

Seems they gave the issue some thought.

c933103 · Tue May 07, 2019 8:22 am

Max Q wrote:
janders wrote:
SkyVoice wrote:
BTW, which ATC Center do they contact while flying over NK?

Pyongyang FIR (ZKKP)

What does the red line denote ?

America FAA declared the part of Pyongyang FIR on the west of the red line a no fly zone back in year 2014

senatorflyer · Tue May 07, 2019 9:43 am

North Korea is cashing in big time on usage of airspace by foreign airlines.

Mortyman · Tue May 07, 2019 10:03 am

Airlines fly over warzones and confliczones all the time:

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea .... Nothing new

zakuivcustom · Tue May 07, 2019 10:44 am

Mortyman wrote:
Airlines fly over warzones and confliczones all the time:

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea .... Nothing new

Huh? What (major) conflict is there inside Iran? They are not even at a state of war with anybody (unlike North Korea, who is technically still at war against South Korea).

As some other said, European carriers had been overflying the Eastern “panhandle” part of North Korea for awhile. And quite frankly, the chance of those short-range missile hitting an airliner is seriously miniscule. These ain’t SAMs which are design to take down aircraft, as US and Russia both know well.

b747400erf · Tue May 07, 2019 10:44 am

Mortyman wrote:
Airlines fly over warzones and confliczones all the time:

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea .... Nothing new

Governments of each country except North Korea in your list is stable enough to not fire missiles or rockets, unannounced, and terror groups in those conflict zones do not have weapons capable of firing. Very few airlines are flying through WESTERN Ukraine still to this day. No flying over Syria either.

zakuivcustom · Tue May 07, 2019 10:46 am

b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Airlines fly over warzones and confliczones all the time:

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea .... Nothing new

Governments of each country except North Korea in your list is stable enough to not fire missiles or rockets, unannounced, and terror groups in those conflict zones do not have weapons capable of firing. Very few airlines are flying through WESTERN Ukraine still to this day. No flying over Syria either.

Not true about Syria - QR recently resume flying over Syria, at least the southern part which is relatively stable (in Syrian standard).

b747400erf · Tue May 07, 2019 10:47 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
b747400erf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Airlines fly over warzones and confliczones all the time:

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea .... Nothing new

Governments of each country except North Korea in your list is stable enough to not fire missiles or rockets, unannounced, and terror groups in those conflict zones do not have weapons capable of firing. Very few airlines are flying through WESTERN Ukraine still to this day. No flying over Syria either.

Not true about Syria - QR recently resume flying over Syria, at least the southern part which is relatively stable (in Syrian standard).

I did not clarify but I am speaking of western airlines.

kruiseri · Tue May 07, 2019 10:56 am

b747400erf wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Why wouldn’t they? It isn’t a war zone (although some would love to change that) and the North Koreans aren’t that stupid to shoot an airliner out of the sky.

It is a war zone, technically both sides are still at war, like the Israeli-Syrian conflict has no official end yet.
On the east coast this is right near where NK just fired more missiles.
They may not be stupid but they have been known to be desperate to pull political stunts for attention and in anger
What could possibly go wrong??

So according to your own reasoning, no airlines should fly to Seoul either as South Korea is also a "war zone"

Or did I miss something here ?

johns624 · Tue May 07, 2019 11:23 am

Many don't seem to realize the difference between a ballistic missile test and a SAM.

Mortyman · Tue May 07, 2019 11:27 am

zakuivcustom wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Airlines fly over warzones and confliczones all the time:

Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, North Korea .... Nothing new

Huh? What (major) conflict is there inside Iran? They are not even at a state of war with anybody (unlike North Korea, who is technically still at war against South Korea).

Yes, but the US is stirring up tensions in the area and this may create missunderstandings / misscalculations and voila a passengerplane might just mistakenly be shot down. We all know that it has happend before

Max Q · Tue May 07, 2019 11:29 am

c933103 wrote:
Max Q wrote:
janders wrote:

Pyongyang FIR (ZKKP)

What does the red line denote ?

America FAA declared the part of Pyongyang FIR on the west of the red line a no fly zone back in year 2014

Thanks for that information

FlyHappy · Tue May 07, 2019 12:43 pm

zeke wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

yes, there was a minute chance, equivalent to that of any airliner being struck by a meteorite.

And what are the chances if a missile disintegrates ?

the same as a meteor, which often disintegrate into meteorites.

FatCat · Tue May 07, 2019 12:49 pm

johns624 wrote:
Many don't seem to realize the difference between a ballistic missile test and a SAM.

that's also very true

FlyHappy · Tue May 07, 2019 1:04 pm

hooverman wrote:
ushermittwoch wrote:
hooverman wrote:
I think it is stupid. KL should know better. The dutch have a traumatic experience with the MH17 shot down above Ukraine which cost many Dutch and other lives.
This could cause quit a stir in the media if they found out.

Fake outrage much?

Not really. Flying over a country that launches missles without NOTAM’s is not a smart thing to do.
The MH17 disaster is still a very sensitive subject in The Netherlands.
There is still a debate going on why airlines where flying over the Ukraine when just days before missles where fired at military aircraft.

I can appreciate the Dutch sensitivity.

I would hope that the more critical thinkers, and I'll give you both the benefit of the doubt, can appreciate the incredible world of difference between:
1) a missile designed to violently explode at altitude, having *specifically* tracked an aircraft by heat, radar image, or laser
2) a ground to ground missile which as absolutely no capability (by design) to track, follow an aircraft, nor is it designed to explode in the sky (even if it carried a warhead)

as I have repeated elsewhere, case 1) have occurred (to put it very mildly) when airliners have been too close to the Russian and US military.
2) has never occurred, anywhere to my knowledge. NK has never, also to my knowledge, destroyed any foreign airliners.

This fear seems misplaced.

atcsundevil · Tue May 07, 2019 2:58 pm

Please keep the thread on topic. This thread is discussion North Korean airspace, not politics, Ukraine, Syria, Iran, or countries that have shot down civilian aircraft in the past. Please keep the discussion to the use of North Korean airspace by European/western carriers.

✈️ atcsundevil

StrandedAtMKG · Tue May 07, 2019 3:49 pm

marcelh wrote:
Why wouldn’t they? It isn’t a war zone (although some would love to change that) and the North Koreans aren’t that stupid to shoot an airliner out of the sky.

Bingo. Kim Jong-Un may be nuttier than a fruitcake, but he knows full well that Donald Trump would love nothing more than an excuse to turn Pyongyang into a parking lot. He can posture and shoot his little missiles into the Pacific all he wants, but he doesn't want the USAF (or NATO) to come knocking on his door.

WkndWanderer · Tue May 07, 2019 4:58 pm

Flyingsottsman wrote:
Over flights would make money for the NK regime from airlines using their flight space, I think its mainly Korean Air, OZ, and any other South Korean registered airline or aircraft that would have big problems using NK airspace, just like El AL in the Middle East.

Surprised that overflight restrictions haven't been rolled up into the other various economic sanction packages, maybe not considered a significant enough source of revenue to hurt the regime?

RetiredWeasel · Tue May 07, 2019 5:09 pm

rlwynn wrote:
DL159 flew right through the middle of NK.

Care to provide a reference for that? To the best of my knowledge, DL159 DTW-ICN never flies over NK nor do any of it's other flights. They fly through China then on the very west side of NK into ICN.

ITSTours · Tue May 07, 2019 5:12 pm

S Korean airlines also want to fly over N Korean airspace since current TPAC and Europe bound routes require significant detour. But the current economic sanction prohibits such discussions. Before 2010 when the relationship between S and N were not that bad, S Korean airlines were flying over N Korean airspace.

ITSTours · Tue May 07, 2019 5:17 pm

WkndWanderer wrote:
Flyingsottsman wrote:
Over flights would make money for the NK regime from airlines using their flight space, I think its mainly Korean Air, OZ, and any other South Korean registered airline or aircraft that would have big problems using NK airspace, just like El AL in the Middle East.

Surprised that overflight restrictions haven't been rolled up into the other various economic sanction packages, maybe not considered a significant enough source of revenue to hurt the regime?

It is reported that the fees are $700 or something like that per each travel.

ITSTours · Tue May 07, 2019 5:27 pm

FlyHappy wrote:
hooverman wrote:
ushermittwoch wrote:

Fake outrage much?

Not really. Flying over a country that launches missles without NOTAM’s is not a smart thing to do.
The MH17 disaster is still a very sensitive subject in The Netherlands.
There is still a debate going on why airlines where flying over the Ukraine when just days before missles where fired at military aircraft.

I can appreciate the Dutch sensitivity.

I would hope that the more critical thinkers, and I'll give you both the benefit of the doubt, can appreciate the incredible world of difference between:
1) a missile designed to violently explode at altitude, having *specifically* tracked an aircraft by heat, radar image, or laser
2) a ground to ground missile which as absolutely no capability (by design) to track, follow an aircraft, nor is it designed to explode in the sky (even if it carried a warhead)

as I have repeated elsewhere, case 1) have occurred (to put it very mildly) when airliners have been too close to the Russian and US military.
2) has never occurred, anywhere to my knowledge. NK has never, also to my knowledge, destroyed any foreign airliners.

This fear seems misplaced.

NK destroyed KAL 858. But probably not your point as NK implanted bombs, not shooting missiles.

More importantly, The Netherlands have a diplomatic relation with North Korea. NK is not that stupid to shoot down a passenger aircraft of which country has the diplomatic relation.

448205 · Tue May 07, 2019 5:37 pm

ITSTours wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:
hooverman wrote:

Not really. Flying over a country that launches missles without NOTAM’s is not a smart thing to do.
The MH17 disaster is still a very sensitive subject in The Netherlands.
There is still a debate going on why airlines where flying over the Ukraine when just days before missles where fired at military aircraft.

I can appreciate the Dutch sensitivity.

I would hope that the more critical thinkers, and I'll give you both the benefit of the doubt, can appreciate the incredible world of difference between:
1) a missile designed to violently explode at altitude, having *specifically* tracked an aircraft by heat, radar image, or laser
2) a ground to ground missile which as absolutely no capability (by design) to track, follow an aircraft, nor is it designed to explode in the sky (even if it carried a warhead)

as I have repeated elsewhere, case 1) have occurred (to put it very mildly) when airliners have been too close to the Russian and US military.
2) has never occurred, anywhere to my knowledge. NK has never, also to my knowledge, destroyed any foreign airliners.

This fear seems misplaced.

NK destroyed KAL 858. But probably not your point as NK implanted bombs, not shooting missiles.

More importantly, The Netherlands have a diplomatic relation with North Korea. NK is not that stupid to shoot down a passenger aircraft of which country has the diplomatic relation.

North Korea has diplomatic relations with South Korea yet still shelled Yeonpyeong in 2010, unprovoked, killing civilians.

WorldFlier · Tue May 07, 2019 5:49 pm

b747400erf wrote:
marcelh wrote:
Why wouldn’t they? It isn’t a war zone (although some would love to change that) and the North Koreans aren’t that stupid to shoot an airliner out of the sky.

It is a war zone, technically both sides are still at war, like the Israeli-Syrian conflict has no official end yet.
On the east coast this is right near where NK just fired more missiles.
They may not be stupid but they have been known to be desperate to pull political stunts for attention and in anger
What could possibly go wrong??

That would make South Korea a warzone too by your definition...

DAL763ER · Tue May 07, 2019 6:04 pm

Planes4you wrote:
Also what routing would you suggest?

The same route BA is using to get to KIX - over Beijing and Seoul.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flig ... 9#205aded1

rjmf22 · Tue May 07, 2019 6:39 pm

Do United, America, and Delta fly over North Korea?

ITSTours · Tue May 07, 2019 6:44 pm

Varsity1 wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:

I can appreciate the Dutch sensitivity.

I would hope that the more critical thinkers, and I'll give you both the benefit of the doubt, can appreciate the incredible world of difference between:
1) a missile designed to violently explode at altitude, having *specifically* tracked an aircraft by heat, radar image, or laser
2) a ground to ground missile which as absolutely no capability (by design) to track, follow an aircraft, nor is it designed to explode in the sky (even if it carried a warhead)

as I have repeated elsewhere, case 1) have occurred (to put it very mildly) when airliners have been too close to the Russian and US military.
2) has never occurred, anywhere to my knowledge. NK has never, also to my knowledge, destroyed any foreign airliners.

This fear seems misplaced.

NK destroyed KAL 858. But probably not your point as NK implanted bombs, not shooting missiles.

More importantly, The Netherlands have a diplomatic relation with North Korea. NK is not that stupid to shoot down a passenger aircraft of which country has the diplomatic relation.

North Korea has diplomatic relations with South Korea yet still shelled Yeonpyeong in 2010, unprovoked, killing civilians.

First we are technically in war with them, and second, the relationship was already becoming very worse. They attacking us does not mean they will also attack a third country in Europe. Especially when SK-NK relationship is getting much better.

United1 · Tue May 07, 2019 6:48 pm

rjmf22 wrote:
Do United, America, and Delta fly over North Korea?

Not that I know of...

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