Another article mentioned $29 fares. It’s about to get very competitive in HI.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bizjou ... d.amp.html

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

The article mentioned that SJC to KOA will be a tag on from HNL (I believe), at least initially. Some here speculated that might be part of the pattern. Maybe an adjustment from the Max 8 situation?

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

For reliability, they'll need a back-and-forth island hopper aircraft each day. Being dependent upon something coming from the mainland to be on time vs. HA's inter-island 717s would be risky. My guess is most of these will eventually offer connections as opposed to same-plane one-stops. Less risk for p/o'ing the locals.

AirFiero wrote:

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

The article mentioned that SJC to KOA will be a tag on from HNL (I believe), at least initially. Some here speculated that might be part of the pattern. Maybe an adjustment from the Max 8 situation?

I'm sorry that the link is behind a paywall, but the headline infers that the potential for more service to Hawaii - both inter-island and Hawaii-to-mainland - is dependent on if/when the 3M8s are certified to return to service:

https://www.bizjournals.com/pacific/new ... awaii.html

enilria wrote:

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

The free checked bags will attract passengers from other airlines who want to island hop. For example, last summer we visited the Big Island and we looked at visiting Ohau as well but the fare plus checked bag charges (who goes to Hawaii without luggage?), just wasn't very appealing. Being able to island hop without paying for luggage fees will be very appealing. Personally I think the aircraft type is the bigger problem. The 737 seems too large for this sort of operation.

I’m working the island hops today. Water or juice and pretzels if there’s time. Same aircraft with four legs. Some of schedules later in the month are 5 legs with the SJC startup. Apparently similar to working “HOU -AUS” said someone in Dallas

Dominion301 wrote:

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

For reliability, they'll need a back-and-forth island hopper aircraft each day. Being dependent upon something coming from the mainland to be on time vs. HA's inter-island 717s would be risky. My guess is most of these will eventually offer connections as opposed to same-plane one-stops. Less risk for p/o'ing the locals.

At a minimum they’ll need a maintenance base in HNL. I’m sure it’s in the works.

Interesting, how long is the plane on the ground between flights? I remember Aloha was having issues using 737NGs on island hopping flights because of the engines.

ikolkyo wrote:

Interesting, how long is the plane on the ground between flights? I remember Aloha was having issues using 737NGs on island hopping flights because of the engines.

Right now the turns vary between 45 min and 1:15, with the norm being 55. The issue with Aloha and their NG engines happened largely because that was all they were doing - interisland. We will be rotating the a/c out after each day spent doing the short legs, likely preventing the issue.

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

In Oct 2019 the first morning flight KOA-HNL #1853 same plane has a 105 min connection/ Etops turn to Flight HNL-OAK #4996
2nd morning KOA-HNL #443 flight same plane 105 min connection/Etops turn to flight HNL-SJC #4980.
First OAK-HNL flight 808 is now a One stop 50 min stop no plane change thru flight to KOA.
SJC-HNL flight #792 has a 110min connection to HNL-KOA #1869.
Sources from my Hawaii trip said that 792 will be a one stop thru flight to LIH in Oct.

Since the east bound flights all require a ETOPS preparation nothing will be a thru flight to the mainland.
But it will give those passengers time to use the New HNL WN gate area restrooms,charging stations,Starbucks and Kona Brewing before the treak to the mainland.
It also eliminates the switching of seats on ground time by the thru passengers taking away prime seats options from Business select and A List customers going on the long haul. It's a ongoing problem on the mainland flights today.

Sounds like ITO is going to happening sometime in 2020 with the same 4 Daily inter island flight schedule times as KOA.

I think as the MAX8 returns to service freeing up the ETOPS NG800 cities like LAX,SAN,PDX,LAS and PHX will Get Added. This will add more aircraft For WN to grow inter island flights from HNL only to around 6 each day from HNL-OGG/KOA/LIH/ITO. 24 daily inter island flights.
I don't see anything beyond that from WN.
So HA will keep it's monopoly on other inter island flights like OGG-KOA or LIH-KOA ect ect.

Flyguy

ikolkyo wrote:

Interesting, how long is the plane on the ground between flights? I remember Aloha was having issues using 737NGs on island hopping flights because of the engines.

It looks like the plane sits on the ground for 45 to 55 minutes during most of the turns, with a couple of longer turns (1:15 just before noon and 1:30 in the later afternoon/early evening).

Dominion301 wrote:

For reliability, they'll need a back-and-forth island hopper aircraft each day. Being dependent upon something coming from the mainland to be on time

That's basically what they're doing, although the noontime HNL-OGG flight could fairly easily use the inbound aircraft from either of the morning flights from the mainland (OAK & SJC) with a fair amount of time to absorb a delay. Departing from the West Coast around 0800 it's unlikely that those flights would be affected by built-up delays in the system. Once the MAX8s return to service and WN expands their Hawaii offerings, it's likely they'll be able to be more aggressive in how they schedule the interisland flights.

enilria wrote:

So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

I think this pattern might work fairly well since the mid-day flights (which are probably weakest with the kama'aina) tend to connect well to the mainland.

How does the inter-island flights mesh with the pilot and cabin crew schedules?

This is going to be fun.... will it be used A321’s with a lot of commonality or used Airbus widebodies with fleet commonality?

3 port side doors used for quick turn arounds or two! Hawaiians will benefit with quicker thinner boardings. Enjoy locals ....yearning for different equipment! My prediction anyway!

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

KlimaBXsst wrote:

This is going to be fun.... will it be used A321’s with a lot of commonality or used Airbus widebodies with fleet commonality?

3 port side doors used for quick turn arounds or two! Hawaiians will benefit with quicker thinner boardings. Enjoy locals ....yearning for different equipment! My prediction anyway!

Southwest is all boeing

tphuang wrote:

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

Hardly. Even Hawaiian, which used to be adamant about connecting everyone through HNL is rapidly going WC-Neighbor Island more and more. This could actually be a good thing to HA, since now the locals cant complain that there isn't "competition" anymore and it will save cycles on 717's should they cut back capacity.

airlinepeanuts wrote:

Southwest is all boeing

Ahh okay thanks! I must be a little confused! (;

Regarding competitive responses to WN which could be made to the benefits of locals and spotters.

PS to the other comment...

yes this option could benefit preserving cycles on the 717 too, which is a very good plane for inter-island. Sustainability and simplicity during this incursion, at a time when a newer build 800 or future MAX is too expensive and too much airplane.

Number crunching is being done I am sure. Simplicity, cost, and commonality are key.

dfwjim1 wrote:

How does the inter-island flights mesh with the pilot and cabin crew schedules?

Mainland - Hi on day one, interisland on day(s) 2 (or 3) and HI - Mainland on the last day.

barney captain wrote:

dfwjim1 wrote:

How does the inter-island flights mesh with the pilot and cabin crew schedules?

Mainland - Hi on day one, interisland on day(s) 2 (or 3) and HI - Mainland on the last day.

Barney, do you yet have any feel for how popular these trips are or aren't? Maybe it's hard to tell this early because folks want to try it out and seeing how senior they go in a year or two will tell us more.

barney captain wrote:

ikolkyo wrote:

Interesting, how long is the plane on the ground between flights? I remember Aloha was having issues using 737NGs on island hopping flights because of the engines.

Right now the turns vary between 45 min and 1:15, with the norm being 55. The issue with Aloha and their NG engines happened largely because that was all they were doing - interisland. We will be rotating the a/c out after each day spent doing the short legs, likely preventing the issue.

The issue was not rotating out. It was 10 min turns in high humidity climate with 22000 ft. max altitude. The engines do not cool fast enough. They would have had to increase cool down time to nearly an hour. If WN is doing 1 hour turns they would not have the problem.

tphuang wrote:

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

I don't, at least for a while. HA and AQ pounded each other on frequency, and WN isn't about that at the moment. They're squeezing some additional a/c utilisation when they can. Their aircraft aren't suitable for high frequency intra-island turns and they know this. But they will be a second force in Hawaii, but I see it more akin to BA vs. BCal than say UA vs. AA @ ORD for example. Now, if and when WN starts doing redeyes ex-Hawaii the dynamic may change considerably.

OzarkD9S wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

I don't, at least for a while. HA and AQ pounded each other on frequency, and WN isn't about that at the moment. They're squeezing some additional a/c utilisation when they can. Their aircraft aren't suitable for high frequency intra-island turns and they know this. But they will be a second force in Hawaii, but I see it more akin to BA vs. BCal than say UA vs. AA @ ORD for example. Now, if and when WN starts doing redeyes ex-Hawaii the dynamic may change considerably.

i'm not talking about just interisland service, but overall margins. HA saw it's margin dropped a lot this Q1 and RASM is projected to go down another 2 to 5% in Q2. And that's before WN gets those 737MAX back in service. All the extra cali-HI market traffic is going to be very painful

tphuang wrote:

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

I’m sure everyone in Hawaii remembers what go! did to Aloha in similar circumstances, and it’s a safe bet there are very few WN loyalists amongst the locals. The tourists (well, the cheap ones) won’t care but the locals just might not look kindly on what WN is trying to do to HA.

DarthLobster wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

I’m sure everyone in Hawaii remembers what go! did to Aloha in similar circumstances, and it’s a safe bet there are very few WN loyalists amongst the locals. The tourists (well, the cheap ones) won’t care but the locals just might not look kindly on what WN is trying to do to HA.

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

WN actually already operates a few nonstop routes within the contiguous U.S. that are shorter than HNL-KOA such as ATL-GSP, AUS-HOU, BWI-ORF, and MDW-GRR.

jplatts wrote:

WN actually already operates a few nonstop routes within the contiguous U.S. that are shorter than HNL-KOA such as ATL-GSP, AUS-HOU, BWI-ORF, and MDW-GRR.

Just cutting this off. Again.

The problem with 737-300 and later and the short flights in Hawaii, as Aloha found, has to do with doing them all day, every day. It's not an issue for Southwest's mainland flights because the planes can sit on a turn or turn to a longer flight. Similarly, it looks like at least initially this isn't going to be a problem for Southwest in Hawaii because the turns are nearly an hour, and the planes are doing some interisland flights for up to a day or two before heading back to the mainland.

Also, HNL-KOA isn't even the shortest flight in Hawaii. All your examples are longer than HNL-OGG, which is 100 miles.

DarthLobster wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

I’m sure everyone in Hawaii remembers what go! did to Aloha in similar circumstances, and it’s a safe bet there are very few WN loyalists amongst the locals. The tourists (well, the cheap ones) won’t care but the locals just might not look kindly on what WN is trying to do to HA.

I beg to differ. AQ killed themselves by selling last minute inter-island flights at $39 each. And their inability to compete - they refused to change. Friends that worked @ AQ (airport) checked out a few flights and well over 80% of the plane was at a $39 fare. go! was selling significantly higher fares (they only had a few at $39).

Silver1SWA wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

tphuang wrote:

I think HA is in a lot of trouble.

I’m sure everyone in Hawaii remembers what go! did to Aloha in similar circumstances, and it’s a safe bet there are very few WN loyalists amongst the locals. The tourists (well, the cheap ones) won’t care but the locals just might not look kindly on what WN is trying to do to HA.

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

77H wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

I’m sure everyone in Hawaii remembers what go! did to Aloha in similar circumstances, and it’s a safe bet there are very few WN loyalists amongst the locals. The tourists (well, the cheap ones) won’t care but the locals just might not look kindly on what WN is trying to do to HA.

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

I’m rooting for HA in this but does anyone know just what percentage of the inter-island traffic is visiting from the lower 48? I bring that up because clearly they won’t have any loyalty to HA, and A) They’ll choose the cheap ticket. B) They’ll choose the carrier whose miles/points they can use back home. Just my guess.

wnflyguy wrote:

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

In Oct 2019 the first morning flight KOA-HNL #1853 same plane has a 105 min connection/ Etops turn to Flight HNL-OAK #4996
2nd morning KOA-HNL #443 flight same plane 105 min connection/Etops turn to flight HNL-SJC #4980.
First OAK-HNL flight 808 is now a One stop 50 min stop no plane change thru flight to KOA.
SJC-HNL flight #792 has a 110min connection to HNL-KOA #1869.
Sources from my Hawaii trip said that 792 will be a one stop thru flight to LIH in Oct.

Since the east bound flights all require a ETOPS preparation nothing will be a thru flight to the mainland.
But it will give those passengers time to use the New HNL WN gate area restrooms,charging stations,Starbucks and Kona Brewing before the treak to the mainland.
It also eliminates the switching of seats on ground time by the thru passengers taking away prime seats options from Business select and A List customers going on the long haul. It's a ongoing problem on the mainland flights today.

Sounds like ITO is going to happening sometime in 2020 with the same 4 Daily inter island flight schedule times as KOA.

I think as the MAX8 returns to service freeing up the ETOPS NG800 cities like LAX,SAN,PDX,LAS and PHX will Get Added. This will add more aircraft For WN to grow inter island flights from HNL only to around 6 each day from HNL-OGG/KOA/LIH/ITO. 24 daily inter island flights.
I don't see anything beyond that from WN.
So HA will keep it's monopoly on other inter island flights like OGG-KOA or LIH-KOA ect ect.

Flyguy

With the Southwest seat layout & The Phoenix heat I doubt PHX-Hawaii is doable in a 737-8 due to ETOPS requirements.

ABEguy wrote:

77H wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

I’m rooting for HA in this but does anyone know just what percentage of the inter-island traffic is visiting from the lower 48? I bring that up because clearly they won’t have any loyalty to HA, and A) They’ll choose the cheap ticket. B) They’ll choose the carrier whose miles/points they can use back home. Just my guess.

HA’s interisland network doesn’t just receive feed from within HA’s network. HA codeshares with the US3 and quite a few international carriers that serve HNL. I suspect HA will increase its codeshare portfolio before long to help keep its planes full. Codesharing is a major advantage for HA over WN in the interisland market.

77H

77H wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

I’m sure everyone in Hawaii remembers what go! did to Aloha in similar circumstances, and it’s a safe bet there are very few WN loyalists amongst the locals. The tourists (well, the cheap ones) won’t care but the locals just might not look kindly on what WN is trying to do to HA.

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

State government can block an airlines expansion? Wouldn't that be illegal, especially towards a US airline? Honest question, I have no clue.

Jshank83 wrote:

77H wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

State government can block an airlines expansion? Wouldn't that be illegal, especially towards a US airline? Honest question, I have no clue.

It is a very fine line when it comes to that but they can make it much more hard to do business (less profitable). Georgia helps Delta quite a bit in under the table ways which I could see Hawaii doing for Hawaiian

Southwest is still a business from the mainland is run by Haoles so the moment they start affecting Hawaiian jobs they are gone

Jshank83 wrote:

77H wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

State government can block an airlines expansion? Wouldn't that be illegal, especially towards a US airline? Honest question, I have no clue.

Not directly no. But all major airports in Hawaii are owned by and operated by the state and could make it very difficult for WN to expand. Both HNL and OGG are gate constrained through much of the day. Limiting WN’s access to gates would be an effective way to block expansion covertly.

77H

77H wrote:

Silver1SWA wrote:

DarthLobster wrote:

I’m sure everyone in Hawaii remembers what go! did to Aloha in similar circumstances, and it’s a safe bet there are very few WN loyalists amongst the locals. The tourists (well, the cheap ones) won’t care but the locals just might not look kindly on what WN is trying to do to HA.

The locals are tired of Hawaiian’s high inter-island fares and welcome the competition.

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

I think I misunderstood DarthLobster’s post. I only meant that they were happy to see the potential for cheaper options, not that they want to see HA fall.

77H wrote:

Jshank83 wrote:

77H wrote:

Sure, right up until HA starts scaling back it’s local workforce, if WN’s success comes at the expense of HA. You’ll see just how friendly and welcoming the locals can be. I wouldn’t be surprised in the slightest to even see state government intervention to block expansion of WN in the market should that occur. Keep in mind that UA once strongly considered entering the interisland market. Their plans were thwarted primarily due to efforts by late Senator Inouye to keep them out of the market and thus not adversely effect the incumbent local carriers at the time.

Remember, Hawaiian is much more than just another airline here. It employs thousands of people locally across the state. And not just traditionally “blue collar” positions either. HA’s HQ is here and with it comes higher paying, traditionally white collar employment opportunities.
At the end of the day, people know WN would never HQ here and there are only so many management level positions needed at each line station. You have to recognize that Hawaii’s economy is not as diversified as other states on the mainland. The downsizing or collapse of HA would have profound adverse effects far beyond the air travel sector.

So you think if the chips were down, the public and government sentiment for WN would remain positive?

77H

State government can block an airlines expansion? Wouldn't that be illegal, especially towards a US airline? Honest question, I have no clue.

Not directly no. But all major airports in Hawaii are owned by and operated by the state and could make it very difficult for WN to expand. Both HNL and OGG are gate constrained through much of the day. Limiting WN’s access to gates would be an effective way to block expansion covertly.

77H

This is already happening in some ways. They’re definitely making WN play by their rules.

Still don’t get the desire to travel to Hawaii when you have SJD no more than 3 hours from anywhere on the west coast. The locals don’t like tourists, what more reason does anyone need not to travel there?

I wish WN the best of luck, just think there are probably more profitable ways to utilize their fleet.

N809FR wrote:

Still don’t get the desire to travel to Hawaii when you have SJD no more than 3 hours from anywhere on the west coast. The locals don’t like tourists, what more reason does anyone need not to travel there?

I wish WN the best of luck, just think there are probably more profitable ways to utilize their fleet.

Cabo and Hawaii are very different destinations, but I agree that Hawaii sort of gives off a vibe that says “We don’t really care that you’re here” vs “We’re glad that you’re here”. Personally, having been to both, I’d take the latter. Cheaper, generally warmer, closer, and easier to get around in. Though I do enjoy Kauai.

I respect the protectionist attitude of Hawaii, but hope they’d respect if the mainland airports started jerking their airline around.

rbavfan wrote:

wnflyguy wrote:

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

In Oct 2019 the first morning flight KOA-HNL #1853 same plane has a 105 min connection/ Etops turn to Flight HNL-OAK #4996
2nd morning KOA-HNL #443 flight same plane 105 min connection/Etops turn to flight HNL-SJC #4980.
First OAK-HNL flight 808 is now a One stop 50 min stop no plane change thru flight to KOA.
SJC-HNL flight #792 has a 110min connection to HNL-KOA #1869.
Sources from my Hawaii trip said that 792 will be a one stop thru flight to LIH in Oct.

Since the east bound flights all require a ETOPS preparation nothing will be a thru flight to the mainland.
But it will give those passengers time to use the New HNL WN gate area restrooms,charging stations,Starbucks and Kona Brewing before the treak to the mainland.
It also eliminates the switching of seats on ground time by the thru passengers taking away prime seats options from Business select and A List customers going on the long haul. It's a ongoing problem on the mainland flights today.

Sounds like ITO is going to happening sometime in 2020 with the same 4 Daily inter island flight schedule times as KOA.

I think as the MAX8 returns to service freeing up the ETOPS NG800 cities like LAX,SAN,PDX,LAS and PHX will Get Added. This will add more aircraft For WN to grow inter island flights from HNL only to around 6 each day from HNL-OGG/KOA/LIH/ITO. 24 daily inter island flights.
I don't see anything beyond that from WN.
So HA will keep it's monopoly on other inter island flights like OGG-KOA or LIH-KOA ect ect.

Flyguy

With the Southwest seat layout & The Phoenix heat I doubt PHX-Hawaii is doable in a 737-8 due to ETOPS requirements.

WN small Sub fleet of 737-MAX7 ETOPS will bring in cities like PHX,LAS and DEN without payload restrictions.
WN can use the 800NG To Hawaii but I've been told the estimated seat cap West bound only would be at 155 from both PHX and LAS.
I don't think from LAS the seat cap would hurt WN at making Revenue against Hawaiian.
PHX on the other Hand has both Hawaiian and American on the sectors. With WN plan of non Red Eye flying and Limited connections even with the 737MAX7 could be a losing battle from PHX.
I believe near term PHX-OAK-HNL same plane thru flight service starts in July or August.

Flyguy

N809FR wrote:

Still don’t get the desire to travel to Hawaii when you have SJD no more than 3 hours from anywhere on the west coast. The locals don’t like tourists, what more reason does anyone need not to travel there?

I wish WN the best of luck, just think there are probably more profitable ways to utilize their fleet.

Sheesh, did someone beat you up the last time you were here?

I agree that sentiments towards tourists are not always positive. I think it has a lot to do with ignorance than anything else. It’s easier to blame the state’s problems on a faceless outside entity than to own and work to correct the problems this state suffers from. A lot of our issues are a result of an inept and corrupt local and state government.

I wish the sentiments would change as tourism is the lifeblood of the economy.

77H

san88 wrote:

Apparently similar to working “HOU -AUS” said someone in Dallas

Better scenery though.

N809FR wrote:

Still don’t get the desire to travel to Hawaii when you have SJD no more than 3 hours from anywhere on the west coast. The locals don’t like tourists, what more reason does anyone need not to travel there?

Locals don’t like tourists who destroy the land, disrespect the culture, ruin sacred areas, and harass wildlife (like picking up turtles!). If you’re a good person who respects the Āina and the culture, you’ll never find a more welcoming place.

77H wrote:

Sheesh, did someone beat you up the last time you were here?

They probably parked on the part of the Hana Highway that’s near the ancient burial ground and posted about it on Instagram and were called out.

Are we really comparing Mexican beach destinations to Hawaii? Those are totally different holidays with totally different topography and scenery. Trying to compare a tropical island chain to Mexico, especially Cabo is really silly. I never bought into the Hawaii hype... but then I visited and love it there.

chrisair wrote:

san88 wrote:

Apparently similar to working “HOU -AUS” said someone in Dallas

Better scenery though.

N809FR wrote:

Still don’t get the desire to travel to Hawaii when you have SJD no more than 3 hours from anywhere on the west coast. The locals don’t like tourists, what more reason does anyone need not to travel there?

Locals don’t like tourists who destroy the land, disrespect the culture, ruin sacred areas, and harass wildlife (like picking up turtles!). If you’re a good person who respects the Āina and the culture, you’ll never find a more welcoming place.

The problem is, the state does a crap job of educating inbound tourists about the culture or wildlife conservation considerations. Most people don’t know that touching coral or sea life can be harmful. Most people are unaware of the cultural history. Tourists come for the warm weather, sun and ocean. The state should educate tourists about the unique aspects of Hawaii. Hell, each passenger fills out the Ag form with the useless HTA tourism survey on the back. Instead, there should be an educational guide with a list of “do’s and don’ts”. There is an opportunity.

Besides, plenty of locals disrespect the ā’ina by littering, graffitiing, etc... If we want visitors to respect our home, we must lead by example.

77H

77H wrote:

chrisair wrote:

san88 wrote:

Apparently similar to working “HOU -AUS” said someone in Dallas

Better scenery though.

N809FR wrote:

Still don’t get the desire to travel to Hawaii when you have SJD no more than 3 hours from anywhere on the west coast. The locals don’t like tourists, what more reason does anyone need not to travel there?

Locals don’t like tourists who destroy the land, disrespect the culture, ruin sacred areas, and harass wildlife (like picking up turtles!). If you’re a good person who respects the Āina and the culture, you’ll never find a more welcoming place.

The problem is, the state does a crap job of educating inbound tourists about the culture or wildlife conservation considerations. Most people don’t know that touching coral or sea life can be harmful. Most people are unaware of the cultural history. Tourists come for the warm weather, sun and ocean. The state should educate tourists about the unique aspects of Hawaii. Hell, each passenger fills out an Ag form with a useless tourism survey on the back. Instead, there should be an educational guide with a list of “do’s and don’ts”

Besides, plenty of locals disrespect the ā’ina by littering, graffitiing, etc... If we want visitors to respect our home, we must lead by example.

77H

How many tourists encounter those local sentiments though? It seems if you stay within the tourist bubble, you’re fine.

I always thought the locals had a problem with people who move to Hawaii. Before accepting a position here I did a lot of research that had me coming here expecting the worst. I have to say the experience so far with the local people has been pleasantly surprising...nothing short of friendly. And I live on the west side of Oahu.

Those CFM56s don’t like short hops.

ABEguy wrote:

Dominion301 wrote:

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

For reliability, they'll need a back-and-forth island hopper aircraft each day. Being dependent upon something coming from the mainland to be on time vs. HA's inter-island 717s would be risky. My guess is most of these will eventually offer connections as opposed to same-plane one-stops. Less risk for p/o'ing the locals.

At a minimum they’ll need a maintenance base in HNL. I’m sure it’s in the works.

There won’t be a maintenance base as that’s overhaul, they might put mechanics in one day as line maintenance, right now Aloha does their maintenance. It’s outsourced.

I've always suspected that WN adding Hawaii has a lot to do with their FF crowd. "free" trips to Hawaii may be as much a strategy to increase flying in the lower 48. After a couple (few?) short hops the last trip of the day for those getting tired and overheated engines will be a trip back to the continent.

wnflyguy wrote:

enilria wrote:

I'll give them credit. The pattern is quite good. We'll see if they maintain it. They have a reputation of letting the pattern morph into an unbalanced schedule of all mornings or something similar. If they maintain this pattern they will grab some good market share.

Interestingly, even though WN is known for multi-stop flights, looking at the current schedule, none of the flights continue onward to California. The plane just goes back and forth on this route and rotates on the RON. So, while I think they will do well on the locals with this pattern, I don't see how they can compete with HA without at least through passengers. Maybe that will change later on? That's when it will get harder to maintain the local pattern.

In Oct 2019 the first morning flight KOA-HNL #1853 same plane has a 105 min connection/ Etops turn to Flight HNL-OAK #4996
2nd morning KOA-HNL #443 flight same plane 105 min connection/Etops turn to flight HNL-SJC #4980.
First OAK-HNL flight 808 is now a One stop 50 min stop no plane change thru flight to KOA.
SJC-HNL flight #792 has a 110min connection to HNL-KOA #1869.
Sources from my Hawaii trip said that 792 will be a one stop thru flight to LIH in Oct.

Since the east bound flights all require a ETOPS preparation nothing will be a thru flight to the mainland.
But it will give those passengers time to use the New HNL WN gate area restrooms,charging stations,Starbucks and Kona Brewing before the treak to the mainland.
It also eliminates the switching of seats on ground time by the thru passengers taking away prime seats options from Business select and A List customers going on the long haul. It's a ongoing problem on the mainland flights today.

Sounds like ITO is going to happening sometime in 2020 with the same 4 Daily inter island flight schedule times as KOA.

I think as the MAX8 returns to service freeing up the ETOPS NG800 cities like LAX,SAN,PDX,LAS and PHX will Get Added. This will add more aircraft For WN to grow inter island flights from HNL only to around 6 each day from HNL-OGG/KOA/LIH/ITO. 24 daily inter island flights.
I don't see anything beyond that from WN.
So HA will keep it's monopoly on other inter island flights like OGG-KOA or LIH-KOA ect ect.

Flyguy

Hey, thanks for correcting me, but what you have posted is not the published schedule for today or yesterday when I posted this. I'm not sure where you are getting that schedule. Today's schedule shows flight 808 arriving at 1045 into HNL. Flight 4100 from OGG arrives at 1055. There is a 1210 to OGG flight 4231 and there is a flight to OAK at 1245 flight 2369. There is no through flight.

77H wrote:

N809FR wrote:

Still don’t get the desire to travel to Hawaii when you have SJD no more than 3 hours from anywhere on the west coast. The locals don’t like tourists, what more reason does anyone need not to travel there?

I wish WN the best of luck, just think there are probably more profitable ways to utilize their fleet.

Sheesh, did someone beat you up the last time you were here?

I agree that sentiments towards tourists are not always positive. I think it has a lot to do with ignorance than anything else.

I absolutely love Hawaii despite the clear and obvious despise that the locals have for tourists or outsiders in general, but I wouldn't call it ignorance.
I heard this somewhere but I can't remember where: Historically, when has any foreigner arrived on an isolated or remote island with the intention to do anything other than exploit its resources and population? Think about that for a minute. That's why the locals are skeptical of outsiders and it makes it easier to enjoy the islands when you see it from this perspective.

chrisair wrote:

Locals don’t like tourists who destroy the land, disrespect the culture, ruin sacred areas, and harass wildlife (like picking up turtles!). If you’re a good person who respects the Āina and the culture, you’ll never find a more welcoming place.

That's true, unfortunately the locals don't give the tourists the benefit of the doubt and assume we're all bad.
On the flip side, tourists don't stay there long enough to show that they do care about all of those things.
As for the turtles it's a bit of a double standard considering the locals don't seem to have a problem in owning beach front property which is the single biggest cause of death for sea turtles.