J343
Topic Author
Posts: 205
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:40 am

DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:43 am

I am not sure if this has been asked or discussed in this forum but why didn't Delta Airlines order the B777-300ER? If they did, will it work out for them? AA and UA seems happy with their B77W
 
Andy33
Posts: 2360
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 8:55 am

It's been discussed again and again. For the longest time Delta saw the 777-300ER as too big for their needs. By the time they finally did need more long-haul aircraft, Airbus made them an offer on A330/A350 that met their requirements.
Will they buy any now? Well, it's debatable whether there are even any production slots left before Boeing switch the lines over to the 778 and 779.
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12063
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 9:00 am

And before it gets inevitably said.... no, it's not likely that DL buys a bunch of used 77Ws as they come off leases, etc.

Contrary to popular A.net lore, DL has not been all that inclined to purchase used widebodies (other than for parts/spares) since the early '90s, with no sign of that changing any time soon.

Other than a leaked inquiry into potentially purchasing 777-212ERs off of SQ circa 2005, they haven't publicly shown the slightest interested in used longhaul aircraft.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
77H
Posts: 1365
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:27 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 9:54 am

LAX772LR wrote:
And before it gets inevitably said.... no, it's not likely that DL buys a bunch of used 77Ws as they come off leases, etc.

Contrary to popular A.net lore, DL has not been all that inclined to purchase used widebodies (other than for parts/spares) since the early '90s, with no sign of that changing any time soon.

Other than a leaked inquiry into potentially purchasing 777-212ERs off of SQ circa 2005, they haven't publicly shown the slightest interested in used longhaul aircraft.


Do you know why the US3 has largely shied away from purchasing second hand WB planes? You mention DL hasn’t really looked since ‘05, AA hasn’t picked up any to my knowledge either though UA recently purchased 3 exHA 763s.

Is it a matter of cost to “refurbish” a WB vs a NB that makes it unattractive? My understanding is that WBs on average, have lower cycles over their lifetime than most NBs which, from what I’ve gathered on A.Net is often a major factor in the used aircraft market. Perhaps it’s US3 networks that don’t necessitate them?

Not to hijack the thread, but with all the 77Es headed to the desert/scrapper it’s surprising UA, being one of the largest 77A/E operators hasn’t picked up additional frames for cheap to use as people movers on trunk/leisure routes.
There was a thread awhile ago comparing fleetwide CASM for the network carriers and I remember seeing UA’s domestic 77A’s having one of the lowest CASM figures in their fleet. Having a few more cheap, low CASM, cargo hauling WBs seems like a win, especially at gate/airspace constrained airports like those found at many of the US3 hubs, during a time period with rapid domestic market growth.

77H
 
KFTG
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 10:01 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Other than a leaked inquiry into potentially purchasing 777-212ERs off of SQ circa 2005, they haven't publicly shown the slightest interested in used longhaul aircraft.

Delta also looked at taking the non-ER 777-300s off EK's hands about 4-6 years ago.
Obviously that didn't pan out...
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 11:25 am

It’ll be interesting to see if they eventually find a fit for the A350-1000 in their fleet now the 77W is obsolete.
come visit the south pacific
 
KFTG
Posts: 44
Joined: Sun Apr 28, 2019 12:08 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 11:27 am

How is the 77W (an aircraft currently in production and receiving warranty support through Boeing) "obsolete"?
Did the A350 render the A330 "obsolete"? I think not.
 
StudiodeKadent
Posts: 366
Joined: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:43 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 11:30 am

KFTG wrote:
How is the 77W (an aircraft currently in production and receiving warranty support through Boeing) "obsolete"?


Its obsolete in the sense that the A350-1000 can play the exact same role in a fleet, but at much lower cost.
 
WPvsMW
Posts: 1979
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 11:41 am

77H wrote:
Do you know why the US3 has largely shied away from purchasing second hand WB planes?


IMO, the decision to acquire (or not to acquire) used a/c in general is cabin reconfiguration costs. In general, cabin reconfig work on WBs is just as active as on NBs... see the table in
https://www.mro-network.com/airframes/a ... en-and-why
but there are far more used NBs than WBs, so the NB reconfig market size is far larger than for WBs.
https://www.mro-network.com/maintenance ... rframe-mro

The fleet planners at the US3 think the economics of new WBs are better than reconfig of used WBs, contrary to other WB operators.
 
JetPilotMike
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2016 5:46 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 12:09 pm

Delta doesn't need it because they outsource a lot of their widebody flying via their joint ventures. Good (maybe great) for their balance sheet, but not so great for their pilots.
 
DALMD80
Posts: 199
Joined: Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:25 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 12:11 pm

Well... they operate A350s and 333s. That could be it.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
User avatar
jfklganyc
Posts: 5323
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:31 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Wed May 01, 2019 12:29 pm

A captain that flew for Pan Am and Delta and retired once told me “delta doesnt like big planes.”

It held true 20 years ago and it holds true today.

And they may be on to something
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12063
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 2:01 am

KFTG wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Other than a leaked inquiry into potentially purchasing 777-212ERs off of SQ circa 2005, they haven't publicly shown the slightest interested in used longhaul aircraft.

Delta also looked at taking the non-ER 777-300s off EK's hands about 4-6 years ago.

:yes: Widely reported on the site, and plausibly believable... but IIRC, it was never corroborated nor leaked from anything official, so didn't count that. That's why I wrote "publicly."

TBH though, I'm sure they've looked at far more than both the above.



JetPilotMike wrote:
Delta doesn't need it because they outsource a lot of their widebody flying via their joint ventures.

Which is of course, overly exaggerated hyperbole.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
xdlx
Posts: 937
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:29 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 2:17 am

JetPilotMike wrote:
Delta doesn't need it because they outsource a lot of their widebody flying via their joint ventures. Good (maybe great) for their balance sheet, but not so great for their pilots.

DL has the SMALLEST Long Haul fleet of all the airlines for the same reason you state.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7198
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 2:19 am

The window for DL to obtain 77Ws effectively closed when they placed the A350 order to replace the remaining 744 capacity.
DL's network doesn't lend itself to a large number or >300 seat widebody aircraft. There not that many routes that can absorb the capacity / gauge size of a 77W in DL's network and they becoming increasingly more difficult to schedule and route profitability. This in comparison to 250-300 seat aircraft that are far more versatile in deployment and can fly multiple TPAC, TATL, and SA routes interchangeably.

Like it or not, DL leverages their JV partners in the select routes where they can fit >300 seat aircraft. Its a balancing act as there are other routes that DL can fly that are more appropriate 76W, A332, A330 sized aircraft that offset the handful of JV routes that require 744/77W/380 aircraft.
 
Austin787
Posts: 345
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:39 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 2:49 am

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
The window for DL to obtain 77Ws effectively closed when they placed the A350 order to replace the remaining 744 capacity.
DL's network doesn't lend itself to a large number or >300 seat widebody aircraft. There not that many routes that can absorb the capacity / gauge size of a 77W in DL's network and they becoming increasingly more difficult to schedule and route profitability. This in comparison to 250-300 seat aircraft that are far more versatile in deployment and can fly multiple TPAC, TATL, and SA routes interchangeably.

Like it or not, DL leverages their JV partners in the select routes where they can fit >300 seat aircraft. Its a balancing act as there are other routes that DL can fly that are more appropriate 76W, A332, A330 sized aircraft that offset the handful of JV routes that require 744/77W/380 aircraft.


Delta's wide bodies have a low J config, or are trending that way. So a 77W with relatively few J seats would have well over 300 seats total, which brings the challenges PSU.DTW.SCE mentioned. Delta doesn't seem to have many premium heavy routes that need more than 34 J seats. AA and UA fly their 77W on routes with high premium demand, and they both put 60 premium seats (60J on UA, 8F+52J on AA) on their 77W while avoiding dumping too much Y capacity.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
Posts: 7198
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 11:45 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 2:56 am

Going back to DL's overall strategy is that they would rather be able to obtain a revenue premium on the seats/capacity they offer in a market at the expense of spilling lower-margin Y/economy fares where feasible.

This the direct opposite strategy of the days when NW would rely heavily upon consolidator/heavily discounted/low-margin fares to fill up Y on the 744s on TPAC routes.
 
IWMBH
Posts: 229
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:01 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 12:18 pm

On which route do you think that DL needs an aircraft like the 77W that can't be done via their partners?
 
SteelChair
Posts: 879
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 12:54 pm

WRT used widebodies, what several posters above have said is correct. Richard Anderson, before he left, was quoted as saying that the economics for used widebodies is very different than the economics for used narrowbodies. Unfortunately, he did not specify exactly what went into that calculation.
 
jayunited
Posts: 2004
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 12:03 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 1:02 pm

J343 wrote:
I am not sure if this has been asked or discussed in this forum but why didn't Delta Airlines order the B777-300ER? If they did, will it work out for them? AA and UA seems happy with their B77W


United is happy with their 77Ws but lets not forget the 77W wasn't UA first choice the A359 then A35J was. If UA's 744s could have made till 2018 which was part of the original plan then UA wouldn't have any 77Ws in our fleet. The only reason we have the 77W is because UA needed an aircraft larger than the A359, the A35J wasn't available and Boeing swooped in and reportedly offered UA an unbelievable deal on the 77Ws. If DL needs a larger aircraft I can see them going for the A35J for their future needs however looking at markets like CDG and AMS DL really goes for frequency. In those markets I think a 300+ seater would hurt DL more than it would help them if they kept the same frequency.

77H wrote:
Not to hijack the thread, but with all the 77Es headed to the desert/scrapper it’s surprising UA, being one of the largest 77A/E operators hasn’t picked up additional frames for cheap to use as people movers on trunk/leisure routes.
There was a thread awhile ago comparing fleetwide CASM for the network carriers and I remember seeing UA’s domestic 77A’s having one of the lowest CASM figures in their fleet. Having a few more cheap, low CASM, cargo hauling WBs seems like a win, especially at gate/airspace constrained airports like those found at many of the US3 hubs, during a time period with rapid domestic market growth.
77H


I don't see UA being interested in second hand 77Es from other airlines, United has 13 789s and 45 A359s on order along with 4 more 78Js and 4 77Ws. The A359 deliveries start in 2022 at that point UA can start retiring the oldest 77A models and replacing them with our own 77Es. From a maintenance perspective the77As are not in bad shape, I don't see any reason why they can't make it till 2022 and any additional widebody lift UA may need in the domestic network for now can be covered by our existing international widebody fleet, which has grown substantially this year and will continue to do so next year with the arrival of more 789s, 78Js, and 77Ws.
 
Tan Flyr
Posts: 1697
Joined: Sat Aug 19, 2000 11:07 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 1:09 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
A captain that flew for Pan Am and Delta and retired once told me “delta doesnt like big planes.”

It held true 20 years ago and it holds true today.

And they may be on to something



I think that has some validity to it. Except for the key routes that needed the 744 when DL acquired NW there still did not seem to be any interest in any more 744 type capacity aircraft. as others have said, the A350 has now filled that slot. But the background to this may go back much farther. DL, like everyone else, rushed to order the original 747 and flooded the domestic market with seats. A very good economy in 71-73 helped soften the blow of all those seats, but the Oil embargo from Oct.73 to April 74 and subsequent rise in Jet-A from 10-12 cents to about a quarter or 35 cents a gallon, coupled with a 2- 3 year recession caused by the oil shock, and having no control over fares ( CAB controlled fares) DL was stuck running those 747s from ORD, JFK, and probably a few others to MIA and such, maybe MCO in those days.

I'm sure they lost money on darn near every flight and that is why they dumped them the moment they could and never looked back.

That economic debacle probable stuck around HQ for a long time.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13630
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 1:26 pm

Waiting for someone to say because the 77W cannot fly LAX-SYD :duck: :cry2:
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
notdownnlocked
Posts: 980
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 1:45 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 3:13 pm

Delta has morphed itself in the delight of management into mostly a shuttle service to AF/KL/KE to CDG/AMS/ICN. DL flies the routes from secondary tier two cities. This being a big reason for A350 deferrals. There is no DL flying ICN-JFK/LAX/ORD/SFO/DFW and others bur they are very proud of the new MSP-ICN flight.
 
notdownnlocked
Posts: 980
Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2000 1:45 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 3:14 pm

Delta has morphed itself in the delight of management into mostly a shuttle service to AF/KL/KE to CDG/AMS/ICN. DL flies the routes from secondary tier two cities. This being a big reason for A350 deferrals. There is no DL flying ICN-JFK/LAX/ORD/SFO/DFW and others bur they are very proud of the new MSP-ICN flight. No need for 777W
 
Alias1024
Posts: 2508
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 11:13 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 3:28 pm

PSU.DTW.SCE wrote:
Going back to DL's overall strategy is that they would rather be able to obtain a revenue premium on the seats/capacity they offer in a market at the expense of spilling lower-margin Y/economy fares where feasible.

This the direct opposite strategy of the days when NW would rely heavily upon consolidator/heavily discounted/low-margin fares to fill up Y on the 744s on TPAC routes.


That's what's stands out to me about the A330-900NEO seat map. The extra floor space over the 767-300ERs they're replacing is used almost entirely for higher revenue seating. The comfort+ cabin is growing substantially and premium select has been added, while main cabin is very similar to the less premium 767 configurations.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
User avatar
hOMSaR
Posts: 2103
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2010 4:47 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 4:05 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
KFTG wrote:
How is the 77W (an aircraft currently in production and receiving warranty support through Boeing) "obsolete"?


Its obsolete in the sense that the A350-1000 can play the exact same role in a fleet, but at much lower cost.


Definition of obsolete, per Merriam-Webster:

no longer in use or no longer useful


By that definition, the 77W is by no means obsolete.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
Airplanes don't have isles, they have aisles.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21399
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 5:32 pm

jayunited wrote:
The only reason we have the 77W is because UA needed an aircraft larger than the A359, the A35J wasn't available and Boeing swooped in and reportedly offered UA an unbelievable deal on the 77Ws.
77H


The deal, according to a bit of reading between the lines from a statement of Mr. Smisek at the time, was a 1-to-1 swap of 788s already ordered for 77Ws. UA gave up ten 788s and got ten 77Ws. This is evidenced by the fact that UA canceled ten 788s, ordered ten 77Ws, and Mr. Smisek said that there was "no additional capital cost" to the deal.

And that, my friends, is an excellent deal. It worked out well for Boeing, because they needed to sell those 77Ws and it worked out well for UA because the 77W was a more expensive plane than the 788.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
WorldFlier
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 2:10 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Thu May 02, 2019 9:18 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
It’ll be interesting to see if they eventually find a fit for the A350-1000 in their fleet now the 77W is obsolete.


What? The 777-300ER is obsolete?

You may want to tell that to United. You know, I'm sure they like their brand new, ridiculously discounted*, 777-300ERs.

I would be shocked if the CASM advantage of the A350-1000 was that significant over the 777-300ER when you consider the purchase price disparity (i.e Airbus probably isn't deeply discounting the A350s). Also fleet and pilot commonality as well as the ability to swap 300s and 200s if your Front section either oversells or doesn't sell well...

*I have no proof that they are ridiculously discounted except for the fact that a) United always gets big discounts and b) Boeing was desperate to fill the gap so they wouldn't ridiculous money between now and 777X production
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5386
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 12:45 am

zeke wrote:
Waiting for someone to say because the 77W cannot fly LAX-SYD :duck: :cry2:

EVERYONE knows that the only plane that can fly LAX-SYD is the 77L. It will require an act of Congress to change it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 6627
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 1:38 am

Just based on DLs route structure, they dont need anything bigger than a 777/A359. Their fortress hubs arent big international cities like IAH and DFW are. Yeah the likes of MSP and DTW are large in their own right, but DL loves to offer frequency. No other US airline hub has 4+ dailies to AMS like DLs biggest hubs do, yeah they have AF/KL on the other side, but compare that to UA which has really no more than 2 daily from their hubs (save LAX and EWR) on JV metal. AA squeaks by with multiple dailies from their hubs to LHR because of BA and Londons massive demand to anywhere.

If DL decides to go bigger, it will probably be the A35J; same category as the 77W but a generation newer, and DL isnt a big 777 operator to start with.

LAX-SYD is a matter of time. The true question is can the A350 do ATL-JNB without a relatively big payload hit or special tires like DLs 77Ls have.
When wasn't America great?


The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and are not influenced by my employer.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 2:18 am

Isn't the A350 in the same size category as the 77W? They can always take the A350-1000 if they see a need for greater capacity.
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 2:19 am

J343 wrote:
I am not sure if this has been asked or discussed in this forum but why didn't Delta Airlines order the B777-300ER? If they did, will it work out for them? AA and UA seems happy with their B77W



Give it a few years when Airlines starts dumping. 10 years old 777-300’s for the 777X Delta will have their pick.
 
User avatar
DL757NYC
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:07 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 2:22 am

jfklganyc wrote:
A captain that flew for Pan Am and Delta and retired once told me “delta doesnt like big planes.”

It held true 20 years ago and it holds true today.

And they may be on to something



Amen they don’t.
 
User avatar
DL717
Posts: 1372
Joined: Wed May 23, 2018 10:53 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 2:49 am

J343 wrote:
I am not sure if this has been asked or discussed in this forum but why didn't Delta Airlines order the B777-300ER? If they did, will it work out for them? AA and UA seems happy with their B77W


Smaller moveable asset like the A350 allows them to reallocate when a market falters.
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
Utah744
Posts: 209
Joined: Mon Jul 13, 2009 10:41 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 2:57 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
KFTG wrote:
How is the 77W (an aircraft currently in production and receiving warranty support through Boeing) "obsolete"?


Its obsolete in the sense that the A350-1000 can play the exact same role in a fleet, but at much lower cost.

Operating cost.
You are never too old to learn something stupid
 
ScorpioMC3
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:52 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 3:30 am

Additionally, based on the giant illuminated "Airbus" sign in the Delta museum at ATL, I think it's safe to say Delta is likely to stick with Airbus for the foreseeable future.
 
bourbon
Posts: 136
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2015 3:35 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 4:06 am

ScorpioMC3 wrote:
Additionally, based on the giant illuminated "Airbus" sign in the Delta museum at ATL, I think it's safe to say Delta is likely to stick with Airbus for the foreseeable future.

I’d say Delta is going to stick with whichever aircraft provides the highest profit margins for their mission.
 
Pacific
Posts: 1138
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2000 2:46 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 8:19 am

Delta has a lot of A-market widebody aircraft, and hardly any B-or C-market aircraft. The 77W is a B market aircraft and it seems DL's network does not fit the profile.

I guess DL's network being suited for A-market aircraft led them to order the A339NEO (and the A359 :duck: ).
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 9:53 am

ScorpioMC3 wrote:
Additionally, based on the giant illuminated "Airbus" sign in the Delta museum at ATL, I think it's safe to say Delta is likely to stick with Airbus for the foreseeable future.


Why would they put that in the museum? Aside from a handful of A310’s they got from the Pan Am acquisition Delta never operated any.
 
User avatar
Keith2004
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:59 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 11:18 am

notdownnlocked wrote:
Delta has morphed itself in the delight of management into mostly a shuttle service to AF/KL/KE to CDG/AMS/ICN. DL flies the routes from secondary tier two cities. This being a big reason for A350 deferrals. There is no DL flying ICN-JFK/LAX/ORD/SFO/DFW and others bur they are very proud of the new MSP-ICN flight. No need for 777W


I think this is a key theme, Delta is not an enthusiast dream when it comes to route structure or long haul fleet (their short haul Mad Dogs remain popular on A-net)
The fact that they are not an enthusiast dream however, is why they are so successful financially.
 
ScorpioMC3
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:52 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 12:32 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ScorpioMC3 wrote:
Additionally, based on the giant illuminated "Airbus" sign in the Delta museum at ATL, I think it's safe to say Delta is likely to stick with Airbus for the foreseeable future.


Why would they put that in the museum? Aside from a handful of A310’s they got from the Pan Am acquisition Delta never operated any.



Dunno. This was in Spring 2017 when I was there for a tour, so I don't know if it's still there.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 2:50 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ScorpioMC3 wrote:
Additionally, based on the giant illuminated "Airbus" sign in the Delta museum at ATL, I think it's safe to say Delta is likely to stick with Airbus for the foreseeable future.


Why would they put that in the museum? Aside from a handful of A310’s they got from the Pan Am acquisition Delta never operated any.

Sure, Delta Air Lines has ordered exactly 0 Airbuses since the DL-NW merger in 2008.
All the new Airbus planes DL is receiving these days were ordered by NW, even the ones that did not exist back then (like the A320neo, A330neo & A350).
[/sarcasm]

Delta is operating a very large fleet of Airbus aircraft, some acquired from NW, and some brand new straight from Airbus.
The Delta Museum has a dynamic content, and Delta history changes every day; so, why would it not have an Airbus sign?
 
Dldiamondboy
Posts: 65
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:21 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 3:02 pm

JetPilotMike wrote:
Delta doesn't need it because they outsource a lot of their widebody flying via their joint ventures. Good (maybe great) for their balance sheet, but not so great for their pilots.


Not so good for their customers as well. Korean Air in particular typically has six abreast seating in first and business class versus Delta only has four abreast in Delta One all their twin aisle aircraft. A330,A350,767,777.
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3553
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 4:28 pm

WorldFlier wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
It’ll be interesting to see if they eventually find a fit for the A350-1000 in their fleet now the 77W is obsolete.


What? The 777-300ER is obsolete?

You may want to tell that to United. You know, I'm sure they like their brand new, ridiculously discounted*, 777-300ERs.

I would be shocked if the CASM advantage of the A350-1000 was that significant over the 777-300ER when you consider the purchase price disparity (i.e Airbus probably isn't deeply discounting the A350s). Also fleet and pilot commonality as well as the ability to swap 300s and 200s if your Front section either oversells or doesn't sell well...

*I have no proof that they are ridiculously discounted except for the fact that a) United always gets big discounts and b) Boeing was desperate to fill the gap so they wouldn't ridiculous money between now and 777X production


We’re talking about DL here not UA, and they already operate the A339 and A359. To them the 77W is obsolete now because of the option of the A351.
come visit the south pacific
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 4:44 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ScorpioMC3 wrote:
Additionally, based on the giant illuminated "Airbus" sign in the Delta museum at ATL, I think it's safe to say Delta is likely to stick with Airbus for the foreseeable future.


Why would they put that in the museum? Aside from a handful of A310’s they got from the Pan Am acquisition Delta never operated any.

Sure, Delta Air Lines has ordered exactly 0 Airbuses since the DL-NW merger in 2008.
All the new Airbus planes DL is receiving these days were ordered by NW, even the ones that did not exist back then (like the A320neo, A330neo & A350).
[/sarcasm]

Delta is operating a very large fleet of Airbus aircraft, some acquired from NW, and some brand new straight from Airbus.
The Delta Museum has a dynamic content, and Delta history changes every day; so, why would it not have an Airbus sign?


Delta doesn't own the museum.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 5:03 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Why would they put that in the museum? Aside from a handful of A310’s they got from the Pan Am acquisition Delta never operated any.

Sure, Delta Air Lines has ordered exactly 0 Airbuses since the DL-NW merger in 2008.
All the new Airbus planes DL is receiving these days were ordered by NW, even the ones that did not exist back then (like the A320neo, A330neo & A350).
[/sarcasm]

Delta is operating a very large fleet of Airbus aircraft, some acquired from NW, and some brand new straight from Airbus.
The Delta Museum has a dynamic content, and Delta history changes every day; so, why would it not have an Airbus sign?


Delta doesn't own the museum.

And? Delta's history didn't stop in 2008; and, as I said, is dynamic.
Delta Air Transport Heritage Museum has decided to add the Airbus sign to reflect the current (or recent) Delta's history; if you wish to change that, then get involved with the museum, get elected on its board and take the necessary decisions.
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1039
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 5:07 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Sure, Delta Air Lines has ordered exactly 0 Airbuses since the DL-NW merger in 2008.
All the new Airbus planes DL is receiving these days were ordered by NW, even the ones that did not exist back then (like the A320neo, A330neo & A350).
[/sarcasm]

Delta is operating a very large fleet of Airbus aircraft, some acquired from NW, and some brand new straight from Airbus.
The Delta Museum has a dynamic content, and Delta history changes every day; so, why would it not have an Airbus sign?


Delta doesn't own the museum.

And? Delta's history didn't stop in 2008; and, as I said, is dynamic.
Delta Air Transport Heritage Museum has decided to add the Airbus sign to reflect the current (or recent) Delta's history; if you wish to change that, then get involved with the museum, get elected on its board and take the necessary decisions.


I simply asked why. You are putting words in my mouth. I never said I had an issue with it. It just seems out of place. Just like the current uniform would look out of place on display at the museum.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 833
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 5:56 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:

Delta doesn't own the museum.

And? Delta's history didn't stop in 2008; and, as I said, is dynamic.
Delta Air Transport Heritage Museum has decided to add the Airbus sign to reflect the current (or recent) Delta's history; if you wish to change that, then get involved with the museum, get elected on its board and take the necessary decisions.


I simply asked why. You are putting words in my mouth. I never said I had an issue with it. It just seems out of place. Just like the current uniform would look out of place on display at the museum.

The answer to why the sign is there is, most likely, because the Delta of today is a big Airbus operator, be it by indirect decision (with the fleets acquired from Pan Am or Northwest) or by direct decisions (with the fleet acquired since the DL-NW merger). The museum not only retraces what has happened years ago and no longer is, but also display current history pertaining to Delta (such as, Airbus, the current uniform, etc).
 
Oliver2020
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2019 5:39 am

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 6:13 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
ScorpioMC3 wrote:
Additionally, based on the giant illuminated "Airbus" sign in the Delta museum at ATL, I think it's safe to say Delta is likely to stick with Airbus for the foreseeable future.


Why would they put that in the museum? Aside from a handful of A310’s they got from the Pan Am acquisition Delta never operated any.


http://www.deltamuseum.org/exhibits/del ... irbus-a310

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_A ... t_overview

As I would screenshot the section of the Wikipedia link that provides the information on the A310, and I would appreciate if you or anyone else could PM me and explain how to post pictures on this website. Anyway the section is in the retired AC section.

Although I don't take Wikipedia as a fact as anyone can edit information on Wikipedia.
 
User avatar
deltacto
Posts: 434
Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:49 pm

Re: DL, why no B77W?

Fri May 03, 2019 7:16 pm

Oliver2020 wrote:
As I would screenshot the section of the Wikipedia link that provides the information on the A310, and I would appreciate if you or anyone else could PM me and explain how to post pictures on this website. Anyway the section is in the retired AC section.


type: [img]PictureLink[/img] where "PictureLink" is the link to the actual picture

for example: http://www.deltamuseum.org/images/site/ ... =9b8dc21_0

Image

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos