Delta 321neo routes

dtwpilot225 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:03 pm

I apologize if this has been discussed before, even if it has I would like to go more in depth. It has been assumed that the 321 neos for delta will do hawaii stuff and possibly transcons with an enhanced product. Where else do we see these operating? Delta in their orders said they would continue to replace Md88 and old 320 but I doubt we will see a 321 neo on md88 routes. Did delta mean they will use a220, 737-900 , 757, and 321 ceo to replace certain md88 routes to open up 321 neos to do more 757 type stuff? Or will the 321 neo truly be just a domestic aircraft. They have 100 orders plus 100 options. For delta , Latin America and Caribbean seems to be locked in to the 737800 and 737900 do we think the 321 neo might end up there as well with it’s reduced fuel burn and extra capacity?

MIflyer12 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:20 pm

Logically they will be used on the longest domestic F routes presently seeing MD-88, MD-90, and 757 aircraft that will be replaced. I know of no announced plan to put anything other than domestic F in 321neos - no 'transcons with enhanced product.' Sixteen are due in 2020 - half the delivery pace of the 321s this year. Maybe that infers a mid-2020 start of deliveries? Maybe the seat product is locked in for the first deliveries.

drdisque · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:30 pm

I suspect routes like ATL-LAX, ATL-SFO, ATL-DEN, ATL-PHX, ATL-SEA, ATL-PDX.

If they get ETOPS on them I can also see them doing LAX-OGG, LAX-KOA, SEA-OGG, SEA-KOA, SEA-HNL.

CRJ900 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:30 pm

Will DL's A321NEO have the ACF cabin with the new door setup?

dtwpilot225 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:37 pm

I do know the first batch at least will be e tops

dtwpilot225 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:39 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Logically they will be used on the longest domestic F routes presently seeing MD-88, MD-90, and 757 aircraft that will be replaced. I know of no announced plan to put anything other than domestic F in 321neos - no 'transcons with enhanced product.' Sixteen are due in 2020 - half the delivery pace of the 321s this year. Maybe that infers a mid-2020 start of deliveries? Maybe the seat product is locked in for the first deliveries.

Sorry that must have been some bad info about the enhanced product, one of the reasons I wanted to create this thread

dtwpilot225 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:42 pm

One of the things I’ve seen delta do since the 321 ceo have been here is replacing prior 737900 routes but not all of them I’ll use dtw as an example
Dtw-las,phx,San is now basically all 321 year round but dtw-lax is a spilt, dtw-sfo,pdx,sea are all 737-900 or 757
I wonder if this has something to do with range in the winter time, historical passenger bookings as the 321 seats 12 more than 737900 or just routing. I would assume more 321 start showing up in sea eventually

moyangmm · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:54 pm

Is the A321neo capable of doing TCON without doing fuel stops during the winter?

Babyshark · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:59 pm

moyangmm wrote:
Is the A321neo capable of doing TCON without doing fuel stops during the winter?

Yes it is. We do it in the CEO Atlanta to west coast in the winter no problem.

DylanHarvey · Mon Apr 29, 2019 3:59 pm

moyangmm wrote:
Is the A321neo capable of doing TCON without doing fuel stops during the winter?

Yes, Alaska have the 321neo doing DCA to LAX, it performs quite a bit better than a 739ER and the ceo’s.

American 767 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:25 pm

drdisque wrote:
I suspect routes like ATL-LAX, ATL-SFO, ATL-DEN, ATL-PHX, ATL-SEA, ATL-PDX.

If they get ETOPS on them I can also see them doing LAX-OGG, LAX-KOA, SEA-OGG, SEA-KOA, SEA-HNL.

Yes, they could. And I also think that SLC-HNL and SLC-OGG would work well, with the 321NEO.

NYCDM · Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:29 pm

It'd be nice to see DL put the A321neo on transcon JFK/BOS - LAX/SFO/SEA, but only if they created a dedicated subfleet with Delta One seating (similar to the old United PS). The 757/767's on the current routes are feeling a bit...dated.

PSU.DTW.SCE · Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:43 pm

I would guess initially the NEOs will go on the longest CEO routes and push everything else on down to backfill retiring aircraft.

MIflyer12 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:44 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Logically they will be used on the longest domestic F routes presently seeing MD-88, MD-90, and 757 aircraft that will be replaced. I know of no announced plan to put anything other than domestic F in 321neos - no 'transcons with enhanced product.' Sixteen are due in 2020 - half the delivery pace of the 321s this year. Maybe that infers a mid-2020 start of deliveries? Maybe the seat product is locked in for the first deliveries.

Sorry that must have been some bad info about the enhanced product, one of the reasons I wanted to create this thread

I'm not declaring I'm right and you're wrong - just that I haven't seen anything like lie-flats for TCONs announced.

Runway28L · Mon Apr 29, 2019 4:59 pm

CRJ900 wrote:
Will DL's A321NEO have the ACF cabin with the new door setup?

The ACF will eventually be the standard configuration for all A321neo aircraft Airbus delivers, so yes.

goboeing · Mon Apr 29, 2019 6:30 pm

There's a lot of conflicting information about how many are getting ETOPS. The first 20, the first 40 . . . ? I've heard it all.

Does anyone have any concrete info on that plan? (which is quite possibly not even decided yet)

777Mech · Mon Apr 29, 2019 7:08 pm

goboeing wrote:
There's a lot of conflicting information about how many are getting ETOPS. The first 20, the first 40 . . . ? I've heard it all.

Does anyone have any concrete info on that plan? (which is quite possibly not even decided yet)

The first 20 will have ETOPs. First delivery will be January 2020

As for the first routes, look for any 757 doing the Hawaii runs out on the west coast.

goboeing · Mon Apr 29, 2019 10:57 pm

777Mech wrote:
goboeing wrote:
There's a lot of conflicting information about how many are getting ETOPS. The first 20, the first 40 . . . ? I've heard it all.

Does anyone have any concrete info on that plan? (which is quite possibly not even decided yet)

The first 20 will have ETOPs. First delivery will be January 2020

As for the first routes, look for any 757 doing the Hawaii runs out on the west coast.

I'd have thought that any ETOPS flying would start after some basic stuff like ATL-LAX-LAX etc. to work them into the system.

I'm admittedly not familiar with ETOPS requirements as far as introducing them into the fleet domestically for that reason, however.

The first 20 seems like a low number to me. The way I understand it, the fuel tank arrangement is such that it's a one time decision made before delivery and once the jet is built without the extra tank(s) that's it, no changing it.

MIflyer12 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:45 pm

It may be a small number but I believe of the domestic 757-200s (non-charter) only the 75H and 75G are ETOPS -- 21 frames.

cessna2 · Mon Apr 29, 2019 11:58 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
It may be a small number but I believe of the domestic 757-200s (non-charter) only the 75H and 75G are ETOPS -- 21 frames.

Yup and the A321NEO's will be replacing them on west coast-Hawaii routes. Which will be a much welcomed upgrade. They only thing i'll miss is boarding at door 2. It'll be really nice to have a better AVOD system that works consistently, unlike the 75H fleet.

INFINITI329 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:11 am

moyangmm wrote:
Is the A321neo capable of doing TCON without doing fuel stops during the winter?

I am not sure if the 757s have any problems during the winter with fuel stops, if they don't the A21N should not have a problem either as it has a greater "book" range than all 757 models.

burnsie28 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:14 am

777Mech wrote:
goboeing wrote:
There's a lot of conflicting information about how many are getting ETOPS. The first 20, the first 40 . . . ? I've heard it all.

Does anyone have any concrete info on that plan? (which is quite possibly not even decided yet)

The first 20 will have ETOPs. First delivery will be January 2020

As for the first routes, look for any 757 doing the Hawaii runs out on the west coast.

The first delivery will not be January.

dtwpilot225 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:17 am

For what it’s worth the original plan for the 737-900 was to Etops 40 of them then they realized the plan was not good for the mission and dequaled a bunch of them

compensateme · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:20 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
It may be a small number but I believe of the domestic 757-200s (non-charter) only the 75H and 75G are ETOPS -- 21 frames.

I think it's just the 15 75H, which were originally delivered to NW in 1995-96. NW had a few other (2000s build) aircraft certfied as well, but looks like DL let that lapse.

Not really surprising, given that the average stage length flown by the 757 continues to decrease. The 75H, with their recycled interiors, likely won't last as long in DL's fleet as the ex-TZ/SQ 757 that they replaced to Hawaii...

dtwpilot225 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:33 am

Back to the neos what other routes do we speculate
Bos-sea? Currently a 737-800. That would add 37 seats and reduced fuel burn
Dtw-sfo?
Atl-anc?
Msp-anc?

NateGreat · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:42 am

Could the ETOPS A321neo frames replace the ETOPS 757-200 frames that do the long-and-thin TATL routes out of JFK and BOS?

MIflyer12 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:45 am

compensateme wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
It may be a small number but I believe of the domestic 757-200s (non-charter) only the 75H and 75G are ETOPS -- 21 frames.

I think it's just the 15 75H, which were originally delivered to NW in 1995-96. NW had a few other (2000s build) aircraft certfied as well, but looks like DL let that lapse.

I think the 5 ex-Shanghai Air 757s are also ETOPS.

MIflyer12 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:48 am

dtwpilot225 wrote:
Back to the neos what other routes do we speculate
Bos-sea? Currently a 737-800. That would add 37 seats and reduced fuel burn

If they wanted to add seats and reduce fuel burn per seat they could run a 739 or 321 today - and yet they don't. That should tell you something.

Collecting information and thinking is often more productive than speculating.

dtwpilot225 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:25 am

No speculating is always smarter

compensateme · Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:28 am

dtwpilot225 wrote:
No speculating is always smarter

ATL-ANC

ATL-SLC-OGG

ATL-LAX-KOA

SLC-DCA

SLC-SNA

MSP-BDA

ATL-BOI

ATL-RNO

ATL-RDU

ATL-MSY

MSP-MIA

RDU-LAX

IND-SEA

ATL-CLE

ATL-DFW

mercure1 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:47 am

321neo would be good at any airport with dept runway performance challenges. The 737-900ER is not a good rwy performance aircraft.

jrkmsp · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:15 am

I heard that there would be lie-flats on some subset of the neos. I’m unclear whether it will be the ETOPS fleet, or some other subset.

ocaviation · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:25 am

I know the A220 is replacing the 717 on the SLC-SNA route, but will the A321 NEO replace the 757 on the ATL-SNA route?

klm617 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:32 am

Would be a great plane to open up DTW-MAN along with DTW-ANC

TW870 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:48 am

Given the number of ships on order, I think you will see the 321N all over the place. Yes, you will see it on some routes particularly well suited to its enhanced range and reduced fuel burn - such as West Coast to Hawaii. But many things govern deployment of aircraft, especially scheduling efficiency and crew routing. So while it might show up on BOS-SFO, it could just as easily fly ATL-IND or ATL-RDU. Delta's system is overwhelmingly short haul. Very few routes take the aircraft in any fleet up to the edge of their envelope. There are far more ATL-HSV/JAN/BHM/SAV/RDU routings than ATL-JNB.

Also, my hunch is they will exercise those 321N options. The GTF's kinks are being worked out, and that engine is going to be a star. See this in Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomp ... add5bc7e94

Bottom line is that this will be a widely deployed aircraft, not a niche one.

TTailedTiger · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:50 am

ocaviation wrote:
I know the A220 is replacing the 717 on the SLC-SNA route, but will the A321 NEO replace the 757 on the ATL-SNA route?

I would imagine the 757 at SNA would be replaced with 73W, 738, A220. AA operates the 738 at SNA. After the 757 I think that's as big as it gets for passenger aircraft.

ocaviation · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:53 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
ocaviation wrote:
I know the A220 is replacing the 717 on the SLC-SNA route, but will the A321 NEO replace the 757 on the ATL-SNA route?

I would imagine the 757 at SNA would be replaced with 73W, 738, A220. AA operates the 738 at SNA. After the 757 I think that's as big as it gets for passenger aircraft.

Yeah. The largest we get here is the A300 from FDX. DAL tried the JFK flights on the 73W, but those stopped. Speaking of 757s at SNA though, I head rumors that UAL might run the 757 on the Monday and Friday SFO-SNA flights.

NateGreat · Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:26 am

ocaviation wrote:
I know the A220 is replacing the 717 on the SLC-SNA route, but will the A321 NEO replace the 757 on the ATL-SNA route?

Somewhat similarly, it looks like some of the RDU-MCO flights will be swapped from 717 to 320. For example, DL2160 on 7/6/2019 is operated by an A320.

flymco753 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:17 pm

klm617 wrote:
Would be a great plane to open up DTW-MAN along with DTW-ANC

I think you're referring to the A321LR, in which case, yeah. However, a regular A321neo won't be able to do that without restrictions.

StudiodeKadent · Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:35 pm

dtwpilot225 wrote:
I apologize if this has been discussed before, even if it has I would like to go more in depth. It has been assumed that the 321 neos for delta will do hawaii stuff and possibly transcons with an enhanced product.

Got to admit I would be exceptionally surprised if Delta DIDN'T eventually make a subfleet of Delta One A321neos (possibly all LR models so they can be used TATL as well). They could easily do a D1 A321neo with D1 (Thompson Vantage Solo w/doors), Premium Select (5 abreast recliners in the A321 fuselage), C+ and MC (6 abreast standard seating).

They might want to define "Transcon" somewhat broadly... I could see them defining any flights between LAX/SFO/SEA and ATL/JFK/BOS as "Transcon" flights.

NateGreat · Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:32 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
dtwpilot225 wrote:
I apologize if this has been discussed before, even if it has I would like to go more in depth. It has been assumed that the 321 neos for delta will do hawaii stuff and possibly transcons with an enhanced product.

Got to admit I would be exceptionally surprised if Delta DIDN'T eventually make a subfleet of Delta One A321neos (possibly all LR models so they can be used TATL as well). They could easily do a D1 A321neo with D1 (Thompson Vantage Solo w/doors), Premium Select (5 abreast recliners in the A321 fuselage), C+ and MC (6 abreast standard seating).

They might want to define "Transcon" somewhat broadly... I could see them defining any flights between LAX/SFO/SEA and ATL/JFK/BOS as "Transcon" flights.

Especially when you consider what will replace the ETOPS 757-200s.

StudiodeKadent · Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:37 pm

NateGreat wrote:
Especially when you consider what will replace the ETOPS 757-200s.

Exactly. A D1 A321neo/LR subfleet makes complete sense in this context.

NateGreat · Tue Apr 30, 2019 1:49 pm

StudiodeKadent wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Especially when you consider what will replace the ETOPS 757-200s.

Exactly. A D1 A321neo/LR subfleet makes complete sense in this context.

They could be used almost exclusively on JFK/BOS-LAX/SFO/SEA flights, as far as domestic transcons go.

StudiodeKadent · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:01 pm

NateGreat wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
NateGreat wrote:
Especially when you consider what will replace the ETOPS 757-200s.

Exactly. A D1 A321neo/LR subfleet makes complete sense in this context.

They could be used almost exclusively on JFK/BOS-LAX/SFO/SEA flights, as far as domestic transcons go.

I think they'd factor ATL into it as well given Atlanta is their superhub and also a powerful financial center in its own right.

They may also do SEA/SFO/LAX - Hawaii on the jets. But who knows?

airbazar · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:06 pm

NateGreat wrote:
Could the ETOPS A321neo frames replace the ETOPS 757-200 frames that do the long-and-thin TATL routes out of JFK and BOS?

From BOS I suspect that LIS/EDI/DUB could all be done with a "standard" NEO. Even if they have to block seats for LIS the fuel bill would be significantly less.
Would be interesting to see if DL starts a BOS-Europe-BOS-West Coast-Hawaii-West Coast-Boston rotation with these.

flyboy80 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:14 pm

How many 321N will DL take in 2020; and wont they also continue to take ceo in 2020 and 2021? Not that it makes a big difference, but the two generations of 321 at DL will have different seating capacity so they won't be interchangeable like the 737-900/-9 at UA and 737-800/-8 are at AA.

1989worstyear · Tue Apr 30, 2019 2:49 pm

compensateme wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
It may be a small number but I believe of the domestic 757-200s (non-charter) only the 75H and 75G are ETOPS -- 21 frames.

I think it's just the 15 75H, which were originally delivered to NW in 1995-96. NW had a few other (2000s build) aircraft certfied as well, but looks like DL let that lapse.

Not really surprising, given that the average stage length flown by the 757 continues to decrease. The 75H, with their recycled interiors, likely won't last as long in DL's fleet as the ex-TZ/SQ 757 that they replaced to Hawaii...

Makes me wish they would have went for the oldest in the fleet instead.

burnsie28 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:43 pm

ocaviation wrote:
TTailedTiger wrote:
ocaviation wrote:
I know the A220 is replacing the 717 on the SLC-SNA route, but will the A321 NEO replace the 757 on the ATL-SNA route?

I would imagine the 757 at SNA would be replaced with 73W, 738, A220. AA operates the 738 at SNA. After the 757 I think that's as big as it gets for passenger aircraft.

Yeah. The largest we get here is the A300 from FDX. DAL tried the JFK flights on the 73W, but those stopped. Speaking of 757s at SNA though, I head rumors that UAL might run the 757 on the Monday and Friday SFO-SNA flights.

JFK was dropped because Delta lost a slot for 2019.

goboeing · Tue Apr 30, 2019 3:59 pm

Okay so there are 38 B757-200s that have 180 minute ETOPS.

Additionally the whole fleet of 16 B757-300s has ETOPS.

Of course some of the 752s are doing stuff like BOS-LIS etc.

So I suppose if someone were to figure out exactly how many 757s are currently needed to fly the west coast-Hawaii schedule it could be around 20?

I guess it's not too far fetched to speculate that two years from today, the only DL jets flying to Hawaii will be 321NEOs and 330/764 from the non-Pacific time zone stations.

Oliver2020 · Tue Apr 30, 2019 4:32 pm

flyboy80 wrote:
How many 321N will DL take in 2020; and wont they also continue to take ceo in 2020 and 2021? Not that it makes a big difference, but the two generations of 321 at DL will have different seating capacity so they won't be interchangeable like the 737-900/-9 at UA and 737-800/-8 are at AA.

A321ceo 2020-27, 2021-3

A321neo 2020-16, 2021-36

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