Gulfstream500
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:58 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
I believe that it should be made necessary to have MULTIPLE different agencies (including the F.A.A., NTSB, etc.) audit the production process and certification of aircraft. Not just Boeing, but any aircraft made in the US (or any aircraft used by US operators, if possible). Just one audit can save lives - and no more of that “self certification” junk.

Do you know how much the certification process already costs? I'm sure some would like that as it would end US aircraft development.

An error was made. But look how safe aviation is. If automobiles were as safe as the MAX has been, I could understand everyone getting riled up.

The US safety process made aviation safe. The MAX will soon be back flying again and will be safe.

Too many audits make flying less safe as audits are paperwork. The process is already miserable.

Why US airlines? They maintained the aircraft properly. The Lion Air aircraft had issues. Now, the MAX needs to be made better. No one doubts that.

But by these standards in 1989 the A320 would have been permanently grounded.

Lightsaber


Aviation safety IS NOT about being as safe as 1989.

In the aviation community, people should strive to improve safety. You’re most certainly right about the 737MAX not being the only airplane with issues. For example, for every 5.72 Cessna caravans built, there is a fatality (among the worst in the industry, data from ASN). Cars, on the other hand, have one fatality for every 425 cars on the road, using that there are currently 236 million cars on the road, 37,000 deaths per year, and cars last for 15 years if not crashed which I know is a bit of an overestimation, so this number might be a bit small. The same applies of the Boeing 737MAX. If you look at the data, then one can determine that there has been one fatality for every 1.14 Boeing 737MAX aircraft in existence. Both the Cessna Caravan and the 737MAX have their issues, but they both have worse fatality rates than cars. But, nobody is trying to say that planes are less safe than cars (the Embraer phenom only has 1 fatality per 125 aircraft in existence).
What's the deal with airplane food?

Frontier Airlines: Spirit of the west
 
Elementalism
Posts: 366
Joined: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:29 pm

FCOTSTW wrote:
Workers at a 787 Dreamliner plant in South Carolina have complained of defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations.

NORTH CHARLESTON, S.C. — When Boeing broke ground on its new factory near Charleston in 2009, the plant was trumpeted as a state-of-the-art manufacturing hub, building one of the most advanced aircraft in the world. But in the decade since, the factory, which makes the 787 Dreamliner, has been plagued by shoddy production and weak oversight that have threatened to compromise safety.

A New York Times review of hundreds of pages of internal emails, corporate documents and federal records, as well as interviews with more than a dozen current and former employees, reveals a culture that often valued production speed over quality. Facing long manufacturing delays, Boeing pushed its work force to quickly turn out Dreamliners, at times ignoring issues raised by employees.

Complaints about the frenzied pace echo broader concerns about the company in the wake of two deadly crashes involving another jet, the 737 Max. Boeing is now facing questions about whether the race to get the Max done, and catch up to its rival Airbus, led it to miss safety risks in the design, like an anti-stall system that played a role in both crashes.

Safety lapses at the North Charleston plant have drawn the scrutiny of airlines and regulators. Qatar Airways stopped accepting planes from the factory after manufacturing mishaps damaged jets and delayed deliveries. Workers have filed nearly a dozen whistle-blower claims and safety complaints with federal regulators, describing issues like defective manufacturing, debris left on planes and pressure to not report violations. Others have sued Boeing, saying they were retaliated against for flagging manufacturing mistakes.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/20/busi ... e=Homepage


I have some experience with this but in a different manufacturing industry. My biased opinion is location of the plant and local workforce that works there. We had plants in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida and Georgia. They all had the same issues. Quality control. It got so bad the product we were producing would have 30 warranty claims opened on the product at the finishing factory. Want to know how we fixed the issue? Moved the factories to northern states in Michigan. Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

A buddy of mine runs a plant for a major food distributor in the Atlanta area. Drives him absolutely crazy the quality of work and effort put into that work. He is born German, moved to the states as a kid and grew up in IL.

As for the article. It sounds about standard. The people not at the plant are pressuring the workforce to get working and do their jobs. They cut corners or do get it done. Debris left in the plane is something we saw as well.And poor workmanship, hence the 30 warranty claims before the product even leaves the factory grounds.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1279
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:51 am

SEPilot wrote:
The NYT has zero credibility as far as I am concerned. My default assumption is that if they report “problems” at a plant then that company is probably doing a good job and the NYT is doing a hit job on them for some political reason.


I concur, the NYT probably sees the EviL Shannahan at DOD and needs every possible story beating up on Boeing. The KC-46 FOD issues were real, but this is so non-specific it is sure to be a hit piece. Notice there are no problems reported in Seattle.

Long ago I did the same stacker crane installation in Saginaw, MI and Athens, AL. The non-union AL plant was far more efficient, possibly 20% less workers for the same output, great moral, and excellent quality. Saginaw was UAW and it felt like a war zone. GM kept the AL plant non-union for a very long time, I believe they gave in during one of the strikes. Before that they paid union scale, the workers voted the union down a number of times.

Quality comes from cooperation between the company and the workers to do it right. Being a union or non-union plant is secondary to that.
 
sxf24
Posts: 821
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:22 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:25 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
I believe that it should be made necessary to have MULTIPLE different agencies (including the F.A.A., NTSB, etc.) audit the production process and certification of aircraft. Not just Boeing, but any aircraft made in the US (or any aircraft used by US operators, if possible). Just one audit can save lives - and no more of that “self certification” junk.

Do you know how much the certification process already costs? I'm sure some would like that as it would end US aircraft development.

An error was made. But look how safe aviation is. If automobiles were as safe as the MAX has been, I could understand everyone getting riled up.

The US safety process made aviation safe. The MAX will soon be back flying again and will be safe.

Too many audits make flying less safe as audits are paperwork. The process is already miserable.

Why US airlines? They maintained the aircraft properly. The Lion Air aircraft had issues. Now, the MAX needs to be made better. No one doubts that.

But by these standards in 1989 the A320 would have been permanently grounded.

Lightsaber


Aviation safety IS NOT about being as safe as 1989.

In the aviation community, people should strive to improve safety. You’re most certainly right about the 737MAX not being the only airplane with issues. For example, for every 5.72 Cessna caravans built, there is a fatality (among the worst in the industry, data from ASN). Cars, on the other hand, have one fatality for every 425 cars on the road, using that there are currently 236 million cars on the road, 37,000 deaths per year, and cars last for 15 years if not crashed which I know is a bit of an overestimation, so this number might be a bit small. The same applies of the Boeing 737MAX. If you look at the data, then one can determine that there has been one fatality for every 1.14 Boeing 737MAX aircraft in existence. Both the Cessna Caravan and the 737MAX have their issues, but they both have worse fatality rates than cars. But, nobody is trying to say that planes are less safe than cars (the Embraer phenom only has 1 fatality per 125 aircraft in existence).


You can’t use the number of planes/cars built as the basis for determining safety. Cars take many more short trips each day than an airplane and generally carry more people. Therefore, the comparison is usually on a per mile or per person basis.
 
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seahawk
Posts: 8306
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Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:55 am

Cars do not fly and therefore the comparison is pointless.
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:00 pm

Elementalism wrote:
I have some experience with this but in a different manufacturing industry. My biased opinion is location of the plant and local workforce that works there. We had plants in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida and Georgia. They all had the same issues. Quality control. It got so bad the product we were producing would have 30 warranty claims opened on the product at the finishing factory. Want to know how we fixed the issue? Moved the factories to northern states in Michigan. Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

A buddy of mine runs a plant for a major food distributor in the Atlanta area. Drives him absolutely crazy the quality of work and effort put into that work. He is born German, moved to the states as a kid and grew up in IL.

As for the article. It sounds about standard. The people not at the plant are pressuring the workforce to get working and do their jobs. They cut corners or do get it done. Debris left in the plane is something we saw as well.And poor workmanship, hence the 30 warranty claims before the product even leaves the factory grounds.

It depends on too many parameters that it's dangerous to generalize as you're doing.
KIA has a huge factory in GA; they manufacture the Sorento (rated 10/10 by JD Power for Quality), the Optima (rated 10/10 by JD Power for Quality) and the Telluride (brand new model, not yet rated); so, this would be a counter-example to your experience.

Southern states have often been pointed out as poor workmanship states; it might have been true decades ago, when the poverty was higher in the South and education lower than in the North. However, the conditions have drastically improved where people have caught up, and even surpassed.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3312
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:05 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Dupli wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
I think it is telling that only employees who were fired are sources.


I thought some sources were retired ex employees, not fired.


You are correct, there was a retired employee who filed a whistleblower complaint that does not appear to have been substantiated.

The article is short on perspective from he constituents that really matter: the FAA, customers and their CAAs.

Very demanding customers like SQ, EY, and BA are taking planes from CHS.



You sound like CHS employee? Your comments are 100% different than i had heard in the past?
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 13704
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:13 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
I have some experience with this but in a different manufacturing industry. My biased opinion is location of the plant and local workforce that works there. We had plants in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida and Georgia. They all had the same issues. Quality control. It got so bad the product we were producing would have 30 warranty claims opened on the product at the finishing factory. Want to know how we fixed the issue? Moved the factories to northern states in Michigan. Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

A buddy of mine runs a plant for a major food distributor in the Atlanta area. Drives him absolutely crazy the quality of work and effort put into that work. He is born German, moved to the states as a kid and grew up in IL.

As for the article. It sounds about standard. The people not at the plant are pressuring the workforce to get working and do their jobs. They cut corners or do get it done. Debris left in the plane is something we saw as well.And poor workmanship, hence the 30 warranty claims before the product even leaves the factory grounds.

It depends on too many parameters that it's dangerous to generalize as you're doing.
KIA has a huge factory in GA; they manufacture the Sorento (rated 10/10 by JD Power for Quality), the Optima (rated 10/10 by JD Power for Quality) and the Telluride (brand new model, not yet rated); so, this would be a counter-example to your experience.

Southern states have often been pointed out as poor workmanship states; it might have been true decades ago, when the poverty was higher in the South and education lower than in the North. However, the conditions have drastically improved where people have caught up, and even surpassed.


Kia is a good example. The German luxury manufacturers (yes, plural) who have assembled in the South for decades might be an even better example. Heck, General Motors builds the Corvette, perhaps their preeminent halo car, in Kentucky.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
SEA
Posts: 279
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:21 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:24 pm

Cubsrule wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Elementalism wrote:
I have some experience with this but in a different manufacturing industry. My biased opinion is location of the plant and local workforce that works there. We had plants in Mississippi, Louisiana, Florida and Georgia. They all had the same issues. Quality control. It got so bad the product we were producing would have 30 warranty claims opened on the product at the finishing factory. Want to know how we fixed the issue? Moved the factories to northern states in Michigan. Wisconsin, and Minnesota.

A buddy of mine runs a plant for a major food distributor in the Atlanta area. Drives him absolutely crazy the quality of work and effort put into that work. He is born German, moved to the states as a kid and grew up in IL.

As for the article. It sounds about standard. The people not at the plant are pressuring the workforce to get working and do their jobs. They cut corners or do get it done. Debris left in the plane is something we saw as well.And poor workmanship, hence the 30 warranty claims before the product even leaves the factory grounds.

It depends on too many parameters that it's dangerous to generalize as you're doing.
KIA has a huge factory in GA; they manufacture the Sorento (rated 10/10 by JD Power for Quality), the Optima (rated 10/10 by JD Power for Quality) and the Telluride (brand new model, not yet rated); so, this would be a counter-example to your experience.

Southern states have often been pointed out as poor workmanship states; it might have been true decades ago, when the poverty was higher in the South and education lower than in the North. However, the conditions have drastically improved where people have caught up, and even surpassed.


Kia is a good example. The German luxury manufacturers (yes, plural) who have assembled in the South for decades might be an even better example. Heck, General Motors builds the Corvette, perhaps their preeminent halo car, in Kentucky.


It's even a thing in Korea to import US-built Optimas and Sonatas into Korea due to a perception of higher quality. IIRC, Hyundai even did a public on stage presentation where they crashed the US-built Sonata and a Korean-built Sonata to show that the quality was the same.
 
jeffrey0032j
Posts: 583
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 3:11 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:01 pm

Strange there hasn't been any complaints about the Seattle lines, it is always CHS that cops "news" of such issues. Union shops are staffed by angels it seems.
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 190
Joined: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:30 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:04 pm

sxf24 wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
Do you know how much the certification process already costs? I'm sure some would like that as it would end US aircraft development.

An error was made. But look how safe aviation is. If automobiles were as safe as the MAX has been, I could understand everyone getting riled up.

The US safety process made aviation safe. The MAX will soon be back flying again and will be safe.

Too many audits make flying less safe as audits are paperwork. The process is already miserable.

Why US airlines? They maintained the aircraft properly. The Lion Air aircraft had issues. Now, the MAX needs to be made better. No one doubts that.

But by these standards in 1989 the A320 would have been permanently grounded.

Lightsaber


Aviation safety IS NOT about being as safe as 1989.

In the aviation community, people should strive to improve safety. You’re most certainly right about the 737MAX not being the only airplane with issues. For example, for every 5.72 Cessna caravans built, there is a fatality (among the worst in the industry, data from ASN). Cars, on the other hand, have one fatality for every 425 cars on the road, using that there are currently 236 million cars on the road, 37,000 deaths per year, and cars last for 15 years if not crashed which I know is a bit of an overestimation, so this number might be a bit small. The same applies of the Boeing 737MAX. If you look at the data, then one can determine that there has been one fatality for every 1.14 Boeing 737MAX aircraft in existence. Both the Cessna Caravan and the 737MAX have their issues, but they both have worse fatality rates than cars. But, nobody is trying to say that planes are less safe than cars (the Embraer phenom only has 1 fatality per 125 aircraft in existence).


You can’t use the number of planes/cars built as the basis for determining safety. Cars take many more short trips each day than an airplane and generally carry more people. Therefore, the comparison is usually on a per mile or per person basis.


It’s more so about the comparison of the “cars are safer than planes” saying, which does indeed not hold up in certain measures for certain planes, with the Cessna 208 and 737MAX qualifying.
What's the deal with airplane food?

Frontier Airlines: Spirit of the west
 
winginit
Posts: 2504
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:10 pm

A320FlyGuy wrote:
This isn’t a new issue....I’m surprised it took the NYT this long to latch on to it. Not that I trust Al Jazeera as a source of news, but this report came out several years ago....drug use on the line, employees not trusting their own product and airlines refusing the product...have a look:

https://youtu.be/rvkEpstd9os


speedbird52 wrote:
NWADTWE16 wrote:
This was reported in a very well produced documentary 4 years ago by Al Jazeera: Its low paid, non unionized employees to the best of my memory, and a ton of scary things being brushed aside. I have not flown a 787 since, and would not if it was produced in CHS

Link to full Documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os

I want to point out the difference in reactions people had to this article and to this documentary


Absolutely, and thanks to the posters who brought this up. There were contrasting reactions on this very forum when both the Al-Jazeera article and documentary were brought up.
 
Lrockeagle
Posts: 116
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 2004 1:40 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:23 pm

Ben Rich said in his autobiography that they designed pocket-less coveralls for workers because they were constantly dropping tools inside the planes they were building at Skunk Works. I’ve heard of an Ohio Class submarine that had an extension ladder left in one of the trim tanks. This happens everywhere
Lrockeagle
14 years ago

I got $20 says AA takes their 787's with GE powerplants. Just a hunch. Any takers?
 
WayexTDI
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2018 4:38 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 5:48 pm

Lrockeagle wrote:
Ben Rich said in his autobiography that they designed pocket-less coveralls for workers because they were constantly dropping tools inside the planes they were building at Skunk Works. I’ve heard of an Ohio Class submarine that had an extension ladder left in one of the trim tanks. This happens everywhere

Still doesn't make it right.
 
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Lilienthal
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:47 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Tue Apr 23, 2019 10:18 pm

Here's todays "The Daily" podcast with an interview with one of the whistleblowers. Quite damning...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/23/podc ... eston.html


I'm surprised by some of the reactions here. With multiple sources reporting similar issues at CHS, it's awfully "trumpy" to just assume some kind of union hit piece or other conspiracy against Boeing. It's obviously uncomfortable to confront these issues, but even the possibility of it demands a thorough investigation. That's not something to sweep under the rug...
 
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fallap
Posts: 948
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:36 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:39 am

Lilienthal wrote:
Here's todays "The Daily" podcast with an interview with one of the whistleblowers. Quite damning...
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/23/podc ... eston.html


I'm surprised by some of the reactions here. With multiple sources reporting similar issues at CHS, it's awfully "trumpy" to just assume some kind of union hit piece or other conspiracy against Boeing. It's obviously uncomfortable to confront these issues, but even the possibility of it demands a thorough investigation. That's not something to sweep under the rug...


Quite disturbing to say the least, even if just half of what he said is right - it certainly raises concerns about the airworthiness of Boeing aircrafts.
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
AEROFAN
Posts: 1661
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:47 am

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:01 pm

77H wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
I think it is telling that only employees who were fired are sources and that the concerns investigated by the FAA haven’t been validated. Perhaps Boeing is firing people to cover up problems or perhaps there are bitter ex-employees with an axe to grind.

I know there are many airlines that prefer to take deliveries out of CHS. The customer is ultimately the best judge of quality.


In light of the MAX groundings and what has come to light regarding the FAA and Boeing’s relationship. “Investigated by the FAA” doesn’t hold the same weight as may once have in terms of insuring safety and compliance.

And why are we surprised separated employees, voluntarily or otherwise would be the whistleblowers? Someone no longer with the company can’t face internal reprisals. To be a whistleblower often means putting ones job on the line. I can’t imagine many would risk that in all but the most extreme situations.

I imagine most of us have worked for companies that have, at some point done something “below board”. While maybe not substantial, still not right. Can any of you say you blew the whistle in this instant while you were employed ? Or even after?

77H

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 1041
Joined: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:35 pm

Re: Boeing' s Trouble: Claims of Shoddy Production Draw Scrutiny to a Second Boeing Jet

Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:57 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Lrockeagle wrote:
Ben Rich said in his autobiography that they designed pocket-less coveralls for workers because they were constantly dropping tools inside the planes they were building at Skunk Works. I’ve heard of an Ohio Class submarine that had an extension ladder left in one of the trim tanks. This happens everywhere

Still doesn't make it right.


I don't think that was the prior poster's point. But the widespread nature of FOD as a quality control and safety issue is illustrative of the fact that it is a major challenge to control.

For another example, there have been recent claims that Panasonic's "Gigafactory" that produces batteries mainly for Tesla scraps cells and/or materials equivalent to about 1/6th of their production. In this case we're not talking about alleged corner cutting pushed by management to increase profits. We're talking about problems that could destroy the company even aside from the risk of cars catching fire.

https://www.businessinsider.com/panason ... tic-2019-4

On several occasions, something has fallen into one of the 16-foot mixers — which contain a blend of chemicals, including volatile lithium — inside the plant, three people with knowledge of the situation told Business Insider. That "something" — whether it be scissors, a roll of tape, a tool — is generally found when the mixer is being cleaned.

"People just don't have the integrity to say, 'Hey, I did something wrong,'" one former employee said.
....
Panasonic sends about 3 million battery cells over to Tesla a day, and the pressure is always on to beat previous goals. That is why, the employees told Business Insider, some workers inside the factory sometimes put tape over the sensors on machines that would catch defects. They don't want the production to stop.

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