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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 06, 2019 7:54 pm

aarbee wrote:
If the have better transit experience, flights are at decent timings, go for it. I will be more than happy to reach my home at a decent time then what current ME flights deliver me.

Time=money.

When I fly for my employer, I charge for travel time. So my employer values my time at the fully loaded cost of employing me. About 5x what I take home. Then I am quite the premium passenger.

When on my own, I have too little vacation time. I avoid connections like the plague and switch airlines for the easiest, in particular when traveling with kids.

To everyone:
If the BOM (or other airport) connection isn't something you would do with two under age ten, but walking, children that you are the only responsible adult, forget it. For if those kids get hingry, can't get to a restroom, or have to wait in a line while tired, no premium passenger will tolerate that. All passengers inherently gravitate to the easiest trip.

That said, the ME3 have connections down. In particular for J or F customers. If the experience isn't better, no business will be lost.

I have enough friends who regularly travel to India. No one brags about connecting in Dubai anymore, but I do get the earful on other connections. Business travelers are harried. Make their lives easy.

Do a US style which is grab bag, go through customs, drop off bag and walk into a special (often quick) line to get back to the terminal. But do it better. US connections are down as passengers will not tolerate the hassles non-US/EU citizens must go through. Since the ME3 are so much better than US connections, India must become better still due to the competition.

Efficiency is relative. The US has a somewhat captured market. India does not. If India fails to become competitive in internally to international connections, there will be more abrupt failures a la Jet.

"Soak the rich." Now do it so they gladly hand over the credit card. But those Y passengers become the rich (sometimes). So respect their time too as the ME3 have.

We all sit down at a computer and compare different options before a trip. Make it so someone who has no reason to pick your favorite airline does:
1. Schedule
2. Comfort
3. Effort
4. Cost

The ME3, in particular EK, nailed 1 through 3, although are slipping on 2 (terminal crowding) and schedule (delays), so they get more of 4.

Seriously, the ME3 are vulnerable now. I'm shocked how India isn't taking advantage:
1. EK has maxed out DXB
2. EY is an investment basket case and is shrinking.
3. QR hampered by Saudi/UAE row.

Only the new Istanbul airport and ADD are ready.. huh. Opportunity.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 06, 2019 9:41 pm

I don't think BOM or DEL terminals hamper most transfer pax (they simply don't care and tolerate many inconveniences). And I fully acknowledge that many people don't want to connect there (just like many people don't want to connect in JFK, IAD, LHR). The main issues IMHO are taxes and lack of proper banks to feed a bank of international flights. I am sure lightsaber can explain better, but I feel like you need at least 20 domestic connections to feed 10 wide bodies intl flights (when those flights already have decent O&D). This is what is lacking.

Lightsaber - I think you forgot the biggest advantage from a US origin pov, all the ME3 lack proper US connections with full alliance milage / MQM earnings. I believe this helped both Jet and AI.
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 06, 2019 10:08 pm

Seems like DL is focusing a lot on O&D pax/ BOM based pax for their upcoming JFK-BOM flight . Tried the following searches for Jan 2020:

BLR-JFK - Only options shown are via EU hubs not this flight.

HYD-JFK , CCU-JFK : No option! Both could've been easily possible via BOM had 9W been active . How far will lack of India side connections affect DL? I think soon they'll interline with AI for domestic connections.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 06, 2019 11:08 pm

aarbee wrote:
Have your ever gone through the bag rechecking process in India? Even the then Jet Airways re-checking was horrendous compared to handing of the bags at ORD, DTW, IAD, JFK. And yeah I never had to hunt for onward boarding passes at these airports..


Went thru BOM, DEL and BLR four times, one-time DL-AI interline, twice on DL-9W code-share, once on LH-9W. It is a breeze. Immigration, Customs, Recheck and Security was very quick. Passport control and security staff were very professional at all three airports.

DL and 9W print BP and tag bags all the way. 9W transfer bag counter is next to the Indian customs exit. If you are a premium pax or SkyMiles higher status, your bags priority tags. Only on DL-AI interline, I have to get a BP from AI counter at DEL.

In March '19 because of 9W fiasco my 3:15 AM BOM-HYD was canceled and rebooked on 6:55 AM flight. Though the 7 hr layover was painful, I walked around and enjoyed the BOM T2 artwork, which is unique in the world, and food. I noticed BOM T2 actually has an International Transit area, without going thru Indian passport control.

I agree Tier2/3 deserve more direct/non-stop options where there is enough demand. That actually relieves pressure on BOM and DEL. But if every few years one airline goes out of business, backfilling BOM and DEL becomes top priority and Tier2/3 connectivity will remain a low priority.

There was a hope for 9W HYD-AMS or AI HYD-LHR. Now ZERO chance for the next five years. Even AI will not waste an LHR slot for HYD when BOM-LHR premium pax are scrambling.

Are Dubai Malls still a real attraction? Malls in the US are dying, and even teenagers are not showing interest to go to malls.
 
devmapper
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Mon May 06, 2019 11:08 pm

DTWLAX wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Is there any chance of a LAX to India direct flight by a US carrier? If not, why not? It is the second largest airport in the US, the largest on the US west coast and is a hub for AA, UA and Delta. Why has Air India not targeted LAX?

AI had announced DEL-LAX starting October 2017 and I believe it even had the flight for sale. But the route never took off.


As a (broader) LAX-area resident who travels to India, and who'd like nothing more than a LAX-DEL flight, LAX area-India market is relatively small. Even by the comparatively outdated statistics of Wikipedia, the addressable market for AI (VFR PIO) is about 120k. Except IAD, all the other areas that have AI direct services have considerably more persons of Indian origin (combine the numbers for San Francisco and San Jose for the entire Bay area market). IAD is considerably closer to DEL than LAX, hence the thrice-weekly flights. Unless AI manages to fly DEL-SFO on a 77W year-round, it doesn't have the capacity to fly to LAX (presumably starting the LAX-DEL flight on the 77L).
The US3 don't start flights because, as lightsaber noted, LAX is a fragmented market, with a lot of competition from the Asian airlines, CX especially. The relatively low fares commanded, makes any LAX-India an unprofitable prospect. Hopefully, as India develops its internet-based entertainment options, businesses with interests in the market will drive more J class demand to perhaps make LAX-DEL/BOM profitable year-round. Even then, I'd imagine AI would probably take a crack at first. Of the US3, I'd guess UA would have been more likely to try, since they have some experience flying marginally profitable routes to China, but apparently UA doesn't have a large FF market since it doesn't fly LAX-JFK. AA hasn't shown much ability to fly profitably to Asia, let alone to a low-margin market like India, and DL would have to pull a 77L from some other, perhaps more profitable route, to make LAX-BOM work after they stabilize the JFK-BOM flight.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 07, 2019 3:27 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
aarbee wrote:
Have your ever gone through the bag rechecking process in India? Even the then Jet Airways re-checking was horrendous compared to handing of the bags at ORD, DTW, IAD, JFK. And yeah I never had to hunt for onward boarding passes at these airports..


Went thru BOM, DEL and BLR four times, one-time DL-AI interline, twice on DL-9W code-share, once on LH-9W. It is a breeze. Immigration, Customs, Recheck and Security was very quick. Passport control and security staff were very professional at all three airports.

DL and 9W print BP and tag bags all the way. 9W transfer bag counter is next to the Indian customs exit. If you are a premium pax or SkyMiles higher status, your bags priority tags. Only on DL-AI interline, I have to get a BP from AI counter at DEL.

In March '19 because of 9W fiasco my 3:15 AM BOM-HYD was canceled and rebooked on 6:55 AM flight. Though the 7 hr layover was painful, I walked around and enjoyed the BOM T2 artwork, which is unique in the world, and food. I noticed BOM T2 actually has an International Transit area, without going thru Indian passport control.

I agree Tier2/3 deserve more direct/non-stop options where there is enough demand. That actually relieves pressure on BOM and DEL. But if every few years one airline goes out of business, backfilling BOM and DEL becomes top priority and Tier2/3 connectivity will remain a low priority.

There was a hope for 9W HYD-AMS or AI HYD-LHR. Now ZERO chance for the next five years. Even AI will not waste an LHR slot for HYD when BOM-LHR premium pax are scrambling.

Are Dubai Malls still a real attraction? Malls in the US are dying, and even teenagers are not showing interest to go to malls.


Buckle up and get ready to get flamed. Don’t you know BOM is horrible to connect through. Even when people post their own stories of positive experiences, people who probably have never even flown the route or connected through BOM say it sucks. These are the same people who say an Indian airline shouldn’t fly a route because EK flies there. And I agree about duty free shopping...who are these people? Who cares about shopping (especially men). But I will grant them that Americans don’t duty free shop so I will admit there might be a reason that doesn’t compute for me. But I bet they are the crowd that loves EK’s gold finishes and don’t understand why some of us are WTF that is ugly, Cue the Amreeka, NRI, BOM insults. Btw my unscientific searches show EK the cheapest in the post jet run for seats...hardly shows ek is the bees knees
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 07, 2019 3:54 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:

Don’t you know BOM is horrible to connect through.

I for one avoid BOM like the plague.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
VTCIE
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 07, 2019 9:52 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Are Dubai Malls still a real attraction? Malls in the US are dying, and even teenagers are not showing interest to go to malls.

Expected comment from a person who has been out of touch with the Indian retail scene for years. Malls are reaching small cities like Jamshedpur, which recently got its first proper mall. More and more Indian high-school kids and college kids want to hang out at these places.

Several second-tier cities (IXC and ATQ, for one) boast burgeoning malls. Quoting on the development on the two main Punjabi cities from the Indian Aviation thread:

JOYA380B747 wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
The richest city North of Delhi- Chandigarh has only 5 flights a day currently thanks to a variety of factors

1. IXC/Chandigarh has between 25-30 flights a day with a sprawling new terminal!! Man, are you so far down South in 'Kings Landing' that you have no idea of 'The North'?!!! (Pun intended) Chandigarh also has the highest per capita income of any city in India, and has been so since decades. It also has the most regulated & strict law & order scene of any major city of India.

2. A significant chunk of passengers (over and above the paltry 25-30 daliy flights) also travel to DEL to take their flights owing to a great network of road and rail network between the two cities (approx 300kms road distance)

3. IXC is the most important AFB, AFAIK, in the Northern frontier, and also the base for the C-17 Globemaster s and soon to be added Chinook CH-47 helicopters of IAF. It presence is extremely criticial for all kinds of supplies & equipment to all defense bases in the North. In current times its use has been unparalleled thanks to ongoing hostilities across the borders nearby. Commercial a/c movement hence, is always given a second priority at IXC.

4. While South has the "gulf component", IXC & ATQ have the Canada, UK and US components. But close proximity of DEL and Air Force base at IXC makes direct flights to IXC from abroad almost non-existent.

If this is the case with middle-class India, imagine the case for Dubai. Arabian supermarket chain LuLu is not far from the truth in its slogan: Where the world comes to shop.
In grieving remembrance of the thousands of people who lost their lives on ET-AVJ, PK-LQP, XA-UHZ, S2-AGU, CP-2933, SU-GCC, EI-ETJ, D-AIPX, PK-AXC, 9M-MRD, VT-AXV and above all 9M-MRO, besides many more. Your deaths are not in vain. Safety first, always.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 07, 2019 10:15 pm

business Standard newspaper is reporting that 80,000 Indian cricket fans are to travel to UK for the World Cup starting June 5. Guess which airline they will be flying? clue: it is not atmosphere airlines.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 07, 2019 10:27 pm

Article in The Week

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thewee ... e.amp.html

I call this milking the Indian media for all they have got
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Tue May 07, 2019 11:54 pm

After Jet's fall, a Bahubali flexes his muscle: how SpiceJet's Ajay Singh is using DGCA to battle Indigo

This is behind a paywall. Will someone who has access provide a summary?

https://prime.economictimes.indiatimes. ... tle-indigo
 
Antarius
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 12:00 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
aarbee wrote:
Have your ever gone through the bag rechecking process in India? Even the then Jet Airways re-checking was horrendous compared to handing of the bags at ORD, DTW, IAD, JFK. And yeah I never had to hunt for onward boarding passes at these airports..


Went thru BOM, DEL and BLR four times, one-time DL-AI interline, twice on DL-9W code-share, once on LH-9W. It is a breeze. Immigration, Customs, Recheck and Security was very quick. Passport control and security staff were very professional at all three airports.

DL and 9W print BP and tag bags all the way. 9W transfer bag counter is next to the Indian customs exit. If you are a premium pax or SkyMiles higher status, your bags priority tags. Only on DL-AI interline, I have to get a BP from AI counter at DEL.

In March '19 because of 9W fiasco my 3:15 AM BOM-HYD was canceled and rebooked on 6:55 AM flight. Though the 7 hr layover was painful, I walked around and enjoyed the BOM T2 artwork, which is unique in the world, and food. I noticed BOM T2 actually has an International Transit area, without going thru Indian passport control.

I agree Tier2/3 deserve more direct/non-stop options where there is enough demand. That actually relieves pressure on BOM and DEL. But if every few years one airline goes out of business, backfilling BOM and DEL becomes top priority and Tier2/3 connectivity will remain a low priority.

There was a hope for 9W HYD-AMS or AI HYD-LHR. Now ZERO chance for the next five years. Even AI will not waste an LHR slot for HYD when BOM-LHR premium pax are scrambling.

Are Dubai Malls still a real attraction? Malls in the US are dying, and even teenagers are not showing interest to go to malls.


Buckle up and get ready to get flamed. Don’t you know BOM is horrible to connect through. Even when people post their own stories of positive experiences, people who probably have never even flown the route or connected through BOM say it sucks. These are the same people who say an Indian airline shouldn’t fly a route because EK flies there. And I agree about duty free shopping...who are these people? Who cares about shopping (especially men). But I will grant them that Americans don’t duty free shop so I will admit there might be a reason that doesn’t compute for me. But I bet they are the crowd that loves EK’s gold finishes and don’t understand why some of us are WTF that is ugly, Cue the Amreeka, NRI, BOM insults. Btw my unscientific searches show EK the cheapest in the post jet run for seats...hardly shows ek is the bees knees


Is BOM the worst in the world, no. That probably goes to LGA. At least New Yorkers admit that their airports collectively suck. BOM people on the other hand...
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 12:01 am

New Stats for BOM

1. The daily passenger footfall — which had dropped to 95,000 on April 18 — increased to 117,000 this week (vs 130,000 when Jet was at its peak)

2. New flights:
SpiceJet 47 + 6 starting May 11 = Total: 53
IndiGo 10 + 10 starting May 12 + 10 starting May 15 : Total 30
Vistara 20
AirAsia 10

3. BOM had an average of 950 flight movements when Jet was around. It subsequently dropped to 650 in April and has now increased to 730 flights

https://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-n ... 7SZSI.html
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:12 am

edealinfo wrote:
New Stats for BOM

1. The daily passenger footfall — which had dropped to 95,000 on April 18 — increased to 117,000 this week (vs 130,000 when Jet was at its peak)

2. New flights:
SpiceJet 47 + 6 starting May 11 = Total: 53
IndiGo 10 + 10 starting May 12 + 10 starting May 15 : Total 30
Vistara 20
AirAsia 10

3. BOM had an average of 950 flight movements when Jet was around. It subsequently dropped to 650 in April and has now increased to 730 flights

https://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-n ... 7SZSI.html

This is fascinating. Lost 300 daily flights, regained 80, 220 to go. Faster regain in passengers though... Huh.

I'd bet the preferred time slots are going first. Odd hours later? (I'm asking, while making a prediction).

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:19 am

lightsaber wrote:

I'd bet the preferred time slots are going first. Odd hours later? (I'm asking, while making a prediction).

Lightsaber


Not necessarily. If you see Spicejet's latest flights, they are all round trip to Bombay (meaning at least 1 flight segment is to BOM regardless of the time of the day). So, they are going after "QUANTITY" and not exclusively "quality" (i.e., preferred time slots). So the quality of time slots appears to a by-product (some of the slots grabbed may, by virtue of, repeatedly a return to base (BOM) fall in a preferred time slot.
 
sibibom
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:25 am

lightsaber wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
New Stats for BOM

1. The daily passenger footfall — which had dropped to 95,000 on April 18 — increased to 117,000 this week (vs 130,000 when Jet was at its peak)

2. New flights:
SpiceJet 47 + 6 starting May 11 = Total: 53
IndiGo 10 + 10 starting May 12 + 10 starting May 15 : Total 30
Vistara 20
AirAsia 10

3. BOM had an average of 950 flight movements when Jet was around. It subsequently dropped to 650 in April and has now increased to 730 flights

https://www.hindustantimes.com/mumbai-n ... 7SZSI.html

This is fascinating. Lost 300 daily flights, regained 80, 220 to go. Faster regain in passengers though... Huh.

I'd bet the preferred time slots are going first. Odd hours later? (I'm asking, while making a prediction).

Lightsaber


LCCs do have more seats (exception being planes from Jet taken over by other airlines) than Jet.
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 3:43 am

Is BOM the worst in the world, no. That probably goes to LGA. At least New Yorkers admit that their airports collectively suck. BOM people on the other hand...


Ha ha!

And LGA has 2x the runway capacity of BOM!
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 3:45 am

CaliguyNYC wrote:
To be fair, BOM has good premium demand (witness EK's 5 daily wide bodies, SQ, BA that send premium heavy planes). The issue is more around competition and GOI policies that make having a hub at BOM (or anywhere in India) as issue. So it is market realities not some innate problem at BOM. Even if 75% of India refused to connect in an India airport, BOM would do just fine with the 25%. I hope post Jet the discussion turns to what policy changes are needed to create a strong Indian aviation market. I think your pov of giving up misses a huge opportunity for India.


Not defending GOI but what exactly has MH or City done for BOM to retain its Numero Uno status?

You can invite some Surtis and they may express an opinion.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 3:53 am

vadodara wrote:

You can invite some Surtis and they may express an opinion.


The only opinion they come forth is that Surat contributes to 99% traffic of BOM, when infact they actually contribute to about less than 0.5% of the traffic at the financial capital's airport.

And not to mention, Surat airport is horribly constrained with just less than a dozen flights and there's already talks of expansion being required at the airport. Now talk of their opinion.
Last edited by avier on Wed May 08, 2019 3:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 3:55 am

vadodara wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
To be fair, BOM has good premium demand (witness EK's 5 daily wide bodies, SQ, BA that send premium heavy planes). The issue is more around competition and GOI policies that make having a hub at BOM (or anywhere in India) as issue. So it is market realities not some innate problem at BOM. Even if 75% of India refused to connect in an India airport, BOM would do just fine with the 25%. I hope post Jet the discussion turns to what policy changes are needed to create a strong Indian aviation market. I think your pov of giving up misses a huge opportunity for India.


Not defending GOI but what exactly has MH or City done for BOM to retain its Numero Uno status?

You can invite some Surtis and they may express an opinion.


Improved the infrastructure massively compared to what it was. Now vacating the slums was beyond their control.
However GVK group has improved runway capacity, constructed world class terminal and thus made it the world's busiest single runway airport. Thus I'd say that they've utilized given resources to maximum extent. Hopes are now for NMIA.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
behramjee
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 4:15 am

edealinfo wrote:
business Standard newspaper is reporting that 80,000 Indian cricket fans are to travel to UK for the World Cup starting June 5. Guess which airline they will be flying? clue: it is not atmosphere airlines.


contractually they are supposed to fly the main sponsor of the cricket world cup i.e. Emirates
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 4:19 am

behramjee wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
business Standard newspaper is reporting that 80,000 Indian cricket fans are to travel to UK for the World Cup starting June 5. Guess which airline they will be flying? clue: it is not atmosphere airlines.


contractually they are supposed to fly the main sponsor of the cricket world cup i.e. Emirates


Didn't know even cricket fans had a contractual obligation on flying a certain airline, when travelling for a match. ;)
 
EmoticonsAllDay
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 8:08 am

Jet Airways gets its first bid from two unknown entrepreneurs and clutch of investors

Just two days before the deadline for putting in bids, Jet Airways has got its first proposal from an unlikely group of investors.

The group includes two little known entrepreneurs: a British, an NRI, and investment firms Future Trend Capital Investments, Redcliffe Capital and Adi Partners.


Source: https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 46011.html

Likely revival of Jet?
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 8:14 am

That guy is a hack.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
binayak
Posts: 888
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 9:43 am

EmoticonsAllDay wrote:
Jet Airways gets its first bid from two unknown entrepreneurs and clutch of investors

Just two days before the deadline for putting in bids, Jet Airways has got its first proposal from an unlikely group of investors.

The group includes two little known entrepreneurs: a British, an NRI, and investment firms Future Trend Capital Investments, Redcliffe Capital and Adi Partners.


Source: https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 46011.html

Likely revival of Jet?

Not on this Earth. In another Earth in a parallel universe , Mr Unsworth owns 4 airlines including jet.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 12:38 pm

unrave wrote:
That guy is a hack.


see how effective he is at milking the Indian media, repeatedly. He will be in the news for the next 1 month. Should be good for his twitter feed. I guess with social networking, one can indeed pull off a massive free media publicity giving him even more of a social presence.

I have been warning against this but my posts keep getting deleted
 
edealinfo
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:10 pm

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 46051.html

Looks like the Indian authorities are going into overdrive mode to scuttle a legitimate bid on Jet (see the link above on a host of investigations). Too bad they are outfoxed by Unsworth, who is social network savvy and will milk the free publicity that the gullible Indian media will bestow on him.
 
hohd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:13 pm

Travelled through BOM and DEL many times, sometimes with separate tickets on AI, Vistara or Jet and LH/UA or Air China or Turkish and with the exception of immigration, I found the connection to be quite good. For some unknown reason, the immigration lines at BOM and DEL (and even MAA) are long at peak hours, may be they should stop stamping Indian passports when they are leaving the country and/or stop taking pictures of at least Indian passport holders.
 
CaliguyNYC
Posts: 806
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:17 pm

vadodara wrote:
Is BOM the worst in the world, no. That probably goes to LGA. At least New Yorkers admit that their airports collectively suck. BOM people on the other hand...


Ha ha!

And LGA has 2x the runway capacity of BOM!


Sorry when I said GOI, I really meant all the govts together (local, state, national). If the slums were cleared and taxes lowered, BOM would be in great shape. Even if the slums remain, BOM would get a good boost if taxes were lowered. While BOM doesn't work for some, it is a great terminal for others. BOM is so easy to get to form the western suburbs (the flyover they built is great), great lounge (really good), separate premium class security and immigration. So BOM will be fine. Turning to LGA, the Delta terminals were always renovated and not where the complaints came from. Even though LGA's runways are congested, the airport is so close to the city, terminals small and compact (DL ones), that many of us chose LGA hands down over JFK or EWR. JFK takes me 1.5 hours to get to from midtown most times of the day. LGA is max 45 min but many times 30 min. Again to each his own.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:21 pm

edealinfo wrote:
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/enforcement-directorate-begins-probe-into-etihads-2014-investment-in-jetprivilege-sources-3946051.html

Looks like the Indian authorities are going into overdrive mode to scuttle a legitimate bid on Jet (see the link above on a host of investigations). Too bad they are outfoxed by Unsworth, who is social network savvy and will milk the free publicity that the gullible Indian media will bestow on him.


I agree with your thought not he goal of these investigations - to stop bids. But shouldn't the govt still sell Jet and then hold EY's and Goyal's money in escrow until the case is closed. My guess is very little will be left for equity holders anyway. This is all about the banks recovering their money. So again I am always confused at what is going on. It is like a child comes up with a rule or an excuse and it becomes fact. No wonder you need a govt big brother to get anything done in India, there do not appear to be rules or logic in business regulation.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 1:29 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/enforcement-directorate-begins-probe-into-etihads-2014-investment-in-jetprivilege-sources-3946051.html

Looks like the Indian authorities are going into overdrive mode to scuttle a legitimate bid on Jet (see the link above on a host of investigations). Too bad they are outfoxed by Unsworth, who is social network savvy and will milk the free publicity that the gullible Indian media will bestow on him.


I agree with your thought not he goal of these investigations - to stop bids. But shouldn't the govt still sell Jet and then hold EY's and Goyal's money in escrow until the case is closed. My guess is very little will be left for equity holders anyway. This is all about the banks recovering their money. So again I am always confused at what is going on. It is like a child comes up with a rule or an excuse and it becomes fact. No wonder you need a govt big brother to get anything done in India, there do not appear to be rules or logic in business regulation.

All the steps will make Abu Dhabi and other Sovereign wealth funds hesitant to invest. That leaves hot money. Ohhh...

As to Jet, there isn't a clear path.
You know nothing John Snow.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 3:32 pm

lightsaber wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/business/companies/enforcement-directorate-begins-probe-into-etihads-2014-investment-in-jetprivilege-sources-3946051.html

Looks like the Indian authorities are going into overdrive mode to scuttle a legitimate bid on Jet (see the link above on a host of investigations). Too bad they are outfoxed by Unsworth, who is social network savvy and will milk the free publicity that the gullible Indian media will bestow on him.


I agree with your thought not he goal of these investigations - to stop bids. But shouldn't the govt still sell Jet and then hold EY's and Goyal's money in escrow until the case is closed. My guess is very little will be left for equity holders anyway. This is all about the banks recovering their money. So again I am always confused at what is going on. It is like a child comes up with a rule or an excuse and it becomes fact. No wonder you need a govt big brother to get anything done in India, there do not appear to be rules or logic in business regulation.

All the steps will make Abu Dhabi and other Sovereign wealth funds hesitant to invest. That leaves hot money. Ohhh...

As to Jet, there isn't a clear path.


Agreed to a point. Let's be honest, EY/AUH's investment in Jet also included govt concessions like a dramatic increase in seat bilateral. So nothing relating to Indian aviation seems based on pure business. It is all about "ins" and special treatment. Hence I have no sympathy for them while at the same time I want Indian airlines to succeed because this crop is all we got (sadly)
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 6:15 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

I agree with your thought not he goal of these investigations - to stop bids. But shouldn't the govt still sell Jet and then hold EY's and Goyal's money in escrow until the case is closed. My guess is very little will be left for equity holders anyway. This is all about the banks recovering their money. So again I am always confused at what is going on. It is like a child comes up with a rule or an excuse and it becomes fact. No wonder you need a govt big brother to get anything done in India, there do not appear to be rules or logic in business regulation.

All the steps will make Abu Dhabi and other Sovereign wealth funds hesitant to invest. That leaves hot money. Ohhh...

As to Jet, there isn't a clear path.


Agreed to a point. Let's be honest, EY/AUH's investment in Jet also included govt concessions like a dramatic increase in seat bilateral. So nothing relating to Indian aviation seems based on pure business. It is all about "ins" and special treatment. Hence I have no sympathy for them while at the same time I want Indian airlines to succeed because this crop is all we got (sadly)

I fully expect those bilaterals to be reverted. That doesn't change the nearly unlimited liability inflicted.

No sympathy is expected. I'm talking the evolved capitalism. One that has moved on from Friedman's the world is flat. Basically social media dilutes the ability of sovereigns to waste sovereign wealth funds or any other investment.

You are proposing confiscation after the fact. That makes investors weary. What they thought they controlled, they do not. India airlines need foreign investment. Best be careful discouraging that.

Lightsaber
You know nothing John Snow.
 
audian
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Wed May 08, 2019 9:35 pm

I still see DXB and DEL are the favored connecting airports for US to India passengers.

If Fly Dubai can operate to second tier cities, Emirates can be well ahead in game on US to India Market by offering one stop connections from US to most Indian cities(First tier & Second tier).

On the other side If AI could expand to cities like DFW/IAH & LAX, it covers the major ground of Indian diaspora. With existing AI's connections to second tier cities from DEL, AI could be a top contender to EK. I started to hear from some of my friends at ORD & SFO that they prefer AI to fly to their city(second tier like VGA) directly and avoid hours of travel after landing in India.

I very much look forward to have an AI plane at DFW.
 
vadodara
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 3:14 am

avier wrote:
vadodara wrote:

You can invite some Surtis and they may express an opinion.


The only opinion they come forth is that Surat contributes to 99% traffic of BOM, when infact they actually contribute to about less than 0.5% of the traffic at the financial capital's airport.

And not to mention, Surat airport is horribly constrained with just less than a dozen flights and there's already talks of expansion being required at the airport. Now talk of their opinion.


Good point! A good reason not to bail out Jet or Air India; instead use the funds for airport expansion.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 11:50 am

Fares are up despite 3% more service even with Jet's shutdown. That shows just how much India's traffic has grown:

https://www.financialexpress.com/indust ... 3097/lite/

Any news on dispersing international routes? The elevated fares must be impacting the greater economy (slowing growth).

Lightsaber
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avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 1:21 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Fares are up despite 3% more service even with Jet's shutdown. That shows just how much India's traffic has grown:



The article, and even you, are highlighting the collective growth but doesn't show the clear picture of things. The "3% more services" isn't accounting and covering up for many of Jet's routes and lost capacity. So very misleading to say that.
That 3% growth was clearly not coming from typical Jet hubs of BOM/DEL, since they never had slots to contribute to that growth. That growth was from other markets led by the LCC's ofcourse.
The Jet vacated routes are still not fully filled up, or not even half filled, hence fares are extremely high on those routes due to shortage of seats on many routes out of BOM. And LCC's can't seem to fill that void completely because they don't even fly to those stations.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 1:34 pm

Jet was India's #1 international carrier. It carried over 8 Million international passengers and Billions of ASKMs.

Others may grab slots, but they will never be able to fill the vacuum.
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 1:48 pm

Pan Am was Amreeka's #1 International carrier. It carried several million international passengers and billions of ASKMs.

Others grabbed slots, filled the vacuum and made the industry bigger and stronger.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 2:05 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
Jet was India's #1 international carrier. It carried over 8 Million international passengers and Billions of ASKMs.

Others may grab slots, but they will never be able to fill the vacuum.


Let's see how great Spice and Indigo are. I think many felt that if Jet would go, these would rise n intl routes. It doesn't look like either airline has the stomach for true long haul. They will try and just fly 737/A320 where ever they can. Which is really sad. It just goes to show how weak Indian aviation really is. Because all these airlines rely on crony capitalism, they aren't solid companies. They are not fighting with the GOI for sane rules and taxation (local or national) because they are in bed with the GOI. I hope Vistara steps up and starts wide body long hauls. Even if it is limited and tied to a partner's hubs. I bet EY would probably lease LHR slots to them. Jet slots are totally duplicative to EY's current slots. EY will bleed on these routes.

To the above post on capacity being up and fares up - while impressive that capacity is up (because of new routes XBOM/DEL), fares are up solely because of Jet routes.
 
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 2:39 pm

Is AdiGroup legit? They are saying they want to invest and hopefully partner with EY. Any thoughts on them?

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 50671.html
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 2:43 pm

unrave wrote:
Pan Am was Amreeka's #1 International carrier. It carried several million international passengers and billions of ASKMs.

Others grabbed slots, filled the vacuum and made the industry bigger and stronger.


Only difference being slots were available in plenty around back then , and now they aren't. So routes like those to LHR, HKG may not have that vacuum filled by competent Indian carriers.
 
avier
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 2:52 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Is AdiGroup legit? They are saying they want to invest and hopefully partner with EY. Any thoughts on them?

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 50671.html


They, or any investor for that matter, can instead setup a brand new airline from scratch, and use the "Jet Airways" brand if need be.
And so my query about can the Jet brand be reused by other airlines to exploit the already established & well known brand for the resonance it has world wide. Afterall a lot goes into developing a brand.
 
hohd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 4:00 pm

AI now is in the prime position to cash in. I am sure they can get a slot at LHR for an additional flight from BOM. This the time to start that and also expand connections from BOM within India. Vistara is an alternative, hopefully they learn from Jet's mistakes, stick to premium economy and at best business class on long haul routes and avoid first class. They need to get a head start on costs, may as well just provide light snack for domestic flights and have buy on board items and sweeten the frequent flyer program to attract Jet customers.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 4:04 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Is AdiGroup legit? They are saying they want to invest and hopefully partner with EY. Any thoughts on them?

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 50671.html


Mumbai probably has a half a dozen $Billionaires who can invest in Jet. If GoI sincerely asks UAE, EY would have invested more. Delta has several $Billions of cash reserves. This is not a lack of investment funds issue. There is some unwritten rule somewhere that 9W has to go. Everyone just jumped on the bad investment bandwagon.

Probably after five years, there will be books and blogs about the truth.
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 4:11 pm

unrave wrote:
Pan Am was Amreeka's #1 International carrier. It carried several million international passengers and billions of ASKMs.

Others grabbed slots, filled the vacuum and made the industry bigger and stronger.


Spot the difference :
Pan Am's TPAC routes were sold to UA much before their shut down. Similarly Trans Atlantic were sold to DL.
In case of jet, currently int'l connectivity out of India has gone back to '90s . While some here will say give all int'l connection from India to EK bla bla.... I think it's a loss for Indian aviation if the capacity void in int'l traffic is filled with foreign carriers. That's a reason I support Vistara taking those 77Ws , refurbishing and then operating BOM / DEL -- LHR /HKG.
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
binayak
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 4:14 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Is AdiGroup legit? They are saying they want to invest and hopefully partner with EY. Any thoughts on them?

https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/busin ... 50671.html

As per CNBC TV 18 , they've(adi group) submitted a bid today
The best preparation for tomorrow is doing your best today
 
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unrave
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 4:24 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

Mumbai probably has a half a dozen $Billionaires who can invest in Jet. If GoI sincerely asks UAE, EY would have invested more. Delta has several $Billions of cash reserves.

And they are all queueing up to give away their $Billions to Jet Airways.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 4:28 pm

unrave wrote:
Pan Am was Amreeka's #1 International carrier. It carried several million international passengers and billions of ASKMs.

Others grabbed slots, filled the vacuum and made the industry bigger and stronger.


True, but some of Pan Am's achievements will not be repeated, even though surviving US carriers (including those that devoured parts of Pan Am at the time -- and the current Big 3 US international airlines all partook) are bigger than any airline of Pan Am era. Like round-the-world flights, hubs in London, Frankfurt and Tokyo. But that is US history, and history of an airline, driven by both economics and prestige, in the country that was dominant in world affairs at the time, and airlines were the emblem and tools of that dominance..

In India's case today, airlines do not carry this much symbolism maybe, but they do carry commerce. Do you believe, given Indian situation as far as fuel prices, taxes, and competitive environment, other private Indian carries will ever try to launch a long-haul system, comparable to what Jet Airways tried to establish?
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: Jet Airways: Shutdown

Thu May 09, 2019 4:39 pm

binayak wrote:
unrave wrote:
Pan Am was Amreeka's #1 International carrier. It carried several million international passengers and billions of ASKMs.

Others grabbed slots, filled the vacuum and made the industry bigger and stronger.


Spot the difference :
Pan Am's TPAC routes were sold to UA much before their shut down. Similarly Trans Atlantic were sold to DL.
In case of jet, currently int'l connectivity out of India has gone back to '90s . While some here will say give all int'l connection from India to EK bla bla.... I think it's a loss for Indian aviation if the capacity void in int'l traffic is filled with foreign carriers. That's a reason I support Vistara taking those 77Ws , refurbishing and then operating BOM / DEL -- LHR /HKG.


Spot on. All of PanAm's value, including its name, was sold off. Pacific routes, LatAm and TransAtlantic (LHR, FRA hub and even India). Planes went to tower air. Pieces sold off as Pan Am went down. Trying to save it and/or pay off debt. Jet just shut down one day.

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