Why does WN avoid redeye flights? Even on their new Hawaii route. They have dozens of routes that could be expanded with overnight flights.

I'm fairly certain their pilot contracts do not permit Redeye flights.

I thought it had to do with their stone-age technology system

WN probably does have the capability to operate redeyes out of Hawaii that depart from Hawaii after 11:00 PM Hawaii Time as WN already operates some flights in the Eastern U.S. that depart between 5:00 AM and 6:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time (which would be between 11:00 PM and 12:00 AM Hawaii Time).

Mboyle is correct.

Crewing hours and rest afterwards.Add's a hell of a lot more complexity into the system.

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

jplatts wrote:

WN probably does have the capability to operate redeyes out of Hawaii that depart from Hawaii after 11:00 PM Hawaii Time as WN already operates some flights in the Eastern U.S. that depart between 5:00 AM and 6:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time (which would be between 11:00 PM and 12:00 AM Hawaii Time).

If they had the capability they would have done it.

n562wn wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

n562wn wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction.

Nickd92 wrote:

Crewing hours and rest afterwards.Add's a hell of a lot more complexity into the system.

It does add complexity. That is the purpose of a modern crew resource management system.

WN should work this into contracts. HA and JetBlue say thank you.

I love redeyes. My children cannot sleep on them, so none for me with them.

Lightsaber

The last time this question was asked, a WN pilot said their contract had long allowed for redeye flights:
viewtopic.php?t=1378051

I suspect WN has long avoided red eyes because they’re typically the lowest yielding flights. Based on comments coming from WN, I expect that they’ll launch redeye flights from Hawaii and probably other stations as well. Besides charging for baggage, it’s the last low hanging fruit for easy revenue expansion.

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

The WN reservation system can't currently handle a pax that departs on one day and connects on another. So they could technically do O&D red eye flying, but they can't handle connections. My understanding is that this will change as a part of their ongoing technology upgrades.

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

I just happen to live under said contract . My apologies for being brief in my original post. I was simply correcting the notion that the pilot contract somehow prohibits red eyes. I didn't have more to add to the conversation.

Murdoughnut wrote:

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

The WN reservation system can't currently handle a pax that departs on one day and connects on another. So they could technically do O&D red eye flying, but they can't handle connections. My understanding is that this will change as a part of their ongoing technology upgrades.

Isn’t the reservation system, like everything else, on Herb Time, though? Virtually all red eyes depart the same day they arrive Herb Time.

Murdoughnut wrote:

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

The WN reservation system can't currently handle a pax that departs on one day and connects on another. So they could technically do O&D red eye flying, but they can't handle connections. My understanding is that this will change as a part of their ongoing technology upgrades.

The WN reservation system is now 100% on Amadeus. The reservation system is not the limiting factor here.

It is one of the three below:

Legacy dispatch system (called 'swift')
Schedule optimization system (used to be called the 'optimizer')
Choice

Murdoughnut wrote:

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

The WN reservation system can't currently handle a pax that departs on one day and connects on another. So they could technically do O&D red eye flying, but they can't handle connections. My understanding is that this will change as a part of their ongoing technology upgrades.

A simple solution to that would be to have redeyes depart at 0005, thus avoiding that problem. Didn’t WN used to operate a couple of redeyes? Didn’t they used to fly SAN-BWI overnight?

If I'm wrong or right? I'm not sure if Southwest using red eyes flight. Do Southwest have to pay ground crews 2 shifts rate is a little pay more than regular hours? Southwest doesn't like to pay more crews if 2 shifts working hours. Is that true?

Q

It's not part of their current business model.

Because no one wants to fly on southwest overnight

It’s like .51 cents for second shift, it’s 4.08 for eight hours.

lightsaber wrote:

Nickd92 wrote:

Crewing hours and rest afterwards.Add's a hell of a lot more complexity into the system.

It does add complexity. That is the purpose of a modern crew resource management system.

WN should work this into contracts. HA and JetBlue say thank you.

WN seems to maintain decent utilization even in the absence of redeyes. MIT Airline Data Project, large narrowbodies (meaning the 738s at WN), 2017 (2018 not out yet), block hours per aircraft:

AS, 11.83 hours
WN, 11.42 hours
UA, 10.54 hours
DL, 10.47 hours
AA, 10.19 hours

It's generally accepted - somebody with route average data please jump in - that redeyes have lower average PRASM. Maybe WN takes a PRASM hit from marginal routings, routing aircraft in four stops East Coast to West Coast instead of competing on longer sectors. (Don't have the data to say.) Hawaii ops certainly challenge the 'no redeye' convention.

Planes4you wrote:

Because no one wants to fly on southwest overnight

I’ve been on several chronically delayed WN flights that turned into de facto red eyes. No difference than any other airline... I actually prefer aircraft without PTVs/overhead TVs on overnight flints...

Yflyer wrote:

n562wn wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction.

I came here for an argument!

Delta started “owly” flights in the 50s. They had to reposition flights and some of the employees recommended charging cheap fairs for these night flights. It worked. I usually bid the “all nighters” as I commute to my base and it allows me to commute home early. I like flying them. Rarely is a seat available out of SEA, SFO, SAN, LAS, PHX, SJC, PDX, LAX, DEN, ANC.....rarely will you hear anyone on the radio except Federal express, ups. Very quiet and usually smooth flights.. I love em.... must be makin money....

MX (Maintenance). WN flies their aircraft particularly hard and at night either SWA MX or Contract MX can take a look at the aircraft (depending on where they RON (Remain Over Night)). There are *many* times where an East Coast scheduled inbound of around 0100 turns into a 0400 or 0500 arrival. It *can* be done. It's choice out of necessity. bnatraveler is correct; with the res system on the Amadeus platform, red-eyes are a non-issue in that realm. Some SWA stations even have personnel present 24 hours. Partly, it's finance thing...personnel cost more when they're working overnight. Crews cost more overnight. Pax pay (generally) less for overnight flights. SWA *could* do it, but the folks who make the decisions down on Love Field Drive in Dallas, Texas, USA, both, have their hands tied behind their backs and can be quite intransigent in their foresight. Side note: AirTran Airways did really well on their red-eye flights and that helped to bring their West Coast Customers to the East for proper connections to Caribbean/Latin American flights. Probably a big factor in why MEX (the 2nd biggest metro in the Western Hemisphere) couldn't bring success to WN in Houston (the 4th biggest city in the USA).

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

Red eyes are notoriously low yield, passengers take them out of necessity, not want. WN’s philosophy was always to keep the employees and customers happy, and this is one way they do it.

USAirKid wrote:

Yflyer wrote:

n562wn wrote:

Actually, he's not.

This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction.

I came here for an argument!

I see. Well, do you want to have the full argument, or were you thinking of taking a course?

USAirKid wrote:

Yflyer wrote:

n562wn wrote:

Actually, he's not.

This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction.

I came here for an argument!

You. Are. My. Hero.

Judge1310 wrote:

MX (Maintenance). WN flies their aircraft particularly hard and at night either SWA MX or Contract MX can take a look at the aircraft (depending on where they RON (Remain Over Night)). There are *many* times where an East Coast scheduled inbound of around 0100 turns into a 0400 or 0500 arrival. It *can* be done. It's choice out of necessity. bnatraveler is correct; with the res system on the Amadeus platform, red-eyes are a non-issue in that realm. Some SWA stations even have personnel present 24 hours. Partly, it's finance thing...personnel cost more when they're working overnight. Crews cost more overnight. Pax pay (generally) less for overnight flights. SWA *could* do it, but the folks who make the decisions down on Love Field Drive in Dallas, Texas, USA, both, have their hands tied behind their backs and can be quite intransigent in their foresight. Side note: AirTran Airways did really well on their red-eye flights and that helped to bring their West Coast Customers to the East for proper connections to Caribbean/Latin American flights. Probably a big factor in why MEX (the 2nd biggest metro in the Western Hemisphere) couldn't bring success to WN in Houston (the 4th biggest city in the USA).

All airlines due most of line maintenance scheduled on third shift, that’s not the reason, I worked third for many years at US/AA. All of the big three fly their planes mostly all day/evening, WN is no different than the big three, and AA, DL and UA fly redeyes.

Boof02671 wrote:

Judge1310 wrote:

MX (Maintenance). WN flies their aircraft particularly hard and at night either SWA MX or Contract MX can take a look at the aircraft (depending on where they RON (Remain Over Night)). There are *many* times where an East Coast scheduled inbound of around 0100 turns into a 0400 or 0500 arrival. It *can* be done. It's choice out of necessity. bnatraveler is correct; with the res system on the Amadeus platform, red-eyes are a non-issue in that realm. Some SWA stations even have personnel present 24 hours. Partly, it's finance thing...personnel cost more when they're working overnight. Crews cost more overnight. Pax pay (generally) less for overnight flights. SWA *could* do it, but the folks who make the decisions down on Love Field Drive in Dallas, Texas, USA, both, have their hands tied behind their backs and can be quite intransigent in their foresight. Side note: AirTran Airways did really well on their red-eye flights and that helped to bring their West Coast Customers to the East for proper connections to Caribbean/Latin American flights. Probably a big factor in why MEX (the 2nd biggest metro in the Western Hemisphere) couldn't bring success to WN in Houston (the 4th biggest city in the USA).

All airlines due most of line maintenance scheduled on third shift, that’s not the reason, I worked third for many years at US/AA. All of the big three fly their planes mostly all day/evening, WN is no different than the big three, and AA, DL and UA fly redeyes.

WN only has like 14 overnight mx stations...all those others the planes are just sitting. Might as well use them for redeyes. They'll get their MX checks done a different night depending on when tasks are due.

I'm pretty sure it's not the pilots or res system holding back...but the operating systems. Someone said Swift?

Boof02671 wrote:

Judge1310 wrote:

MX (Maintenance). WN flies their aircraft particularly hard and at night either SWA MX or Contract MX can take a look at the aircraft (depending on where they RON (Remain Over Night)). There are *many* times where an East Coast scheduled inbound of around 0100 turns into a 0400 or 0500 arrival. It *can* be done. It's choice out of necessity. bnatraveler is correct; with the res system on the Amadeus platform, red-eyes are a non-issue in that realm. Some SWA stations even have personnel present 24 hours. Partly, it's finance thing...personnel cost more when they're working overnight. Crews cost more overnight. Pax pay (generally) less for overnight flights. SWA *could* do it, but the folks who make the decisions down on Love Field Drive in Dallas, Texas, USA, both, have their hands tied behind their backs and can be quite intransigent in their foresight. Side note: AirTran Airways did really well on their red-eye flights and that helped to bring their West Coast Customers to the East for proper connections to Caribbean/Latin American flights. Probably a big factor in why MEX (the 2nd biggest metro in the Western Hemisphere) couldn't bring success to WN in Houston (the 4th biggest city in the USA).

All airlines due most of line maintenance scheduled on third shift, that’s not the reason, I worked third for many years at US/AA. All of the big three fly their planes mostly all day/evening, WN is no different than the big three, and AA, DL and UA fly redeyes.

What you posted (and I bolded and underlined) is completely incorrect. WN is *not* like the US3; that's what makes Southwest, well, Southwest. A fine airline indeed, they are very much NOT like the US3. You completely ignored the vast majority of my post. When a 787/777/757/767 is flying rotations across oceans and such, when do you think MX work/inspections are done? In South America, for example, they're done during the sit times, during the day, in those stations by contract MX. For SWA, the 3rd shift is heav(y,ier) MX work. In fact, ask around, the fine MX folks at SWA in DAL know they're working hard after the last bank of inbounds. Contract MX can clear many items on the MX logs, but in the world of SWA, an asset like an aircraft will touch a SWA MX base as some point during the day and will get the appropriate LUVing care it deserves.

WN does line maintenance like every other airline. They are no different nor special. Their 737s get the same maintenance as AA, DL and UA’s 737. WN is no different than the big three. We aren’t talking widebodies, your post has nothing to do with 737s. A widebody ETOPS plane has a totally different maintenance program , you are comparing apples to oranges. The big 3 have more narrowbodies than widebodies. Guess your not an A&P in the industry. We have more planes RON and more mechanics on third shift than first or third. In CLT alone we can have 20 or more RONs on third.

WN has no issues doing Red Eyes now.
Last part of the IT technology was the MX tracking system that was upgraded last quarter.
WN will eventually do Red Eyes in summer 2020. Hawaii will be the first wave of Red Eyes. Andrew Head The WN Network planning has said before WN has 50 to 60 potential Red Eye markets not just Hawaii.

Flyguy

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’ve aleays thought of redeyes as a lower cost time to use a plane. Yes yields might be lower, but it usually beats a plane sitting on the ground, the yield is high enough that variable costs are covered. Of note, I believe F9 and NK run all kinds of red eyes. So what I’m saying is I don’t buy the yield argument. If yield were an issue no one would run them.

Oops meant first and second

Yflyer wrote:

n562wn wrote:

MO11 wrote:

Mboyle is correct.

Actually, he's not.

This isn't an argument; it's just contradiction.

It's clear that you all know something that the rest of us don't know. Please tell.

FlyingElvii wrote:

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

Red eyes are notoriously low yield, passengers take them out of necessity, not want. WN’s philosophy was always to keep the employees and customers happy, and this is one way they do it.

Just inquiring for clarification 'cause I'm confused. If it's due to necessity, then pax "need it"...need = demand...so why are the yields less? Is the "need" due to an eastbound pax only being able to dept after 5PM & a 6PM dept on a 5hr flight put's them on the east coast @ 2AM, less than "ideal". Red-eye's are "ok" until about Noon-1PM day of arrival, thereafter I become "unsafe @ any speed".

spinotter wrote:

It's clear that you all know something that the rest of us don't know. Please tell.

The only thing I know is that the exchange between n562wn and MO11 sounded a lot like Monty Python's famous "Argument Clinic" sketch, which it sounds like you may be unfamiliar with.

Hawaii is unique. There is not much discount for the overnight flights. Tourists like them because their last day is spent enjoying Hawaii instead of in the air; then they get on the plane and go to sleep. And catch their connecting flight the next morning.

MR27122 wrote:

FlyingElvii wrote:

airportugal310 wrote:

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

Red eyes are notoriously low yield, passengers take them out of necessity, not want. WN’s philosophy was always to keep the employees and customers happy, and this is one way they do it.

Just inquiring for clarification 'cause I'm confused. If it's due to necessity, then pax "need it"...need = demand...so why are the yields less? Is the "need" due to an eastbound pax only being able to dept after 5PM & a 6PM dept on a 5hr flight put's them on the east coast @ 2AM, less than "ideal". Red-eye's are "ok" until about Noon-1PM day of arrival, thereafter I become "unsafe @ any speed".

I think it's an issue of the size of the "need." If I need to be on the west coast until the close of business and on the east coast the next day, I need a redeye. That happens for some passengers, and yields from those passengers are no problem. When I book a redeye for work, which is about the only reason I take them, I am fairly price-insensitive. But if there are only 20 such passengers on a 175-seat airplane, the yields aren't going to be very good, especially for a carrier like WN with a more or less hard cap on fares.

n562wn wrote:

airportugal310 wrote:

n562wn wrote:

Actually, he's not.

If he is not, then perhaps you can tell us why? Clearly you know...

I just happen to live under said contract . My apologies for being brief in my original post. I was simply correcting the notion that the pilot contract somehow prohibits red eyes. I didn't have more to add to the conversation.

I thought that sort of shortcoming was dealt with after the AirTran acquisition(?).

The Pilots and the FAs have HUGE pay increase adjustments when doing redeye flying. On already trashy redeye yields, how much is left over to make these flights worth it form a profit standpoint?

compensateme wrote:

The last time this question was asked, a WN pilot said their contract had long allowed for redeye flights:
viewtopic.php?t=1378051

I suspect WN has long avoided red eyes because they’re typically the lowest yielding flights. Based on comments coming from WN, I expect that they’ll launch redeye flights from Hawaii and probably other stations as well. Besides charging for baggage, it’s the last low hanging fruit for easy revenue expansion.

Really? I think that's Hyperbole because United's first bank arriving from the west coast into Chicago at 0500 is full of passengers getting a jump on the day and their first bank at 0550 is jam packed out of Chicago to the east coast. One of the last banks to leave SFO and LAX include transcons heading to EWR and IAD. and they're usually 75-85% full on a 767-300 and 777-200A If that's not profitable? Then I don't know what is, because it's mostly Businessmen/Women still typing on their Laptops the entire flight. Now if WN just doesn't want to fly the overnight flights? Then that's their prerogative. But the Business is certainly there for them TO fly it out of the major business centers they fly from and TO!

Judge1310 wrote:

Boof02671 wrote:

Judge1310 wrote:

MX (Maintenance). WN flies their aircraft particularly hard and at night either SWA MX or Contract MX can take a look at the aircraft (depending on where they RON (Remain Over Night)). There are *many* times where an East Coast scheduled inbound of around 0100 turns into a 0400 or 0500 arrival. It *can* be done. It's choice out of necessity. bnatraveler is correct; with the res system on the Amadeus platform, red-eyes are a non-issue in that realm. Some SWA stations even have personnel present 24 hours. Partly, it's finance thing...personnel cost more when they're working overnight. Crews cost more overnight. Pax pay (generally) less for overnight flights. SWA *could* do it, but the folks who make the decisions down on Love Field Drive in Dallas, Texas, USA, both, have their hands tied behind their backs and can be quite intransigent in their foresight. Side note: AirTran Airways did really well on their red-eye flights and that helped to bring their West Coast Customers to the East for proper connections to Caribbean/Latin American flights. Probably a big factor in why MEX (the 2nd biggest metro in the Western Hemisphere) couldn't bring success to WN in Houston (the 4th biggest city in the USA).

All airlines due most of line maintenance scheduled on third shift, that’s not the reason, I worked third for many years at US/AA. All of the big three fly their planes mostly all day/evening, WN is no different than the big three, and AA, DL and UA fly redeyes.

What you posted (and I bolded and underlined) is completely incorrect. WN is *not* like the US3; that's what makes Southwest, well, Southwest. A fine airline indeed, they are very much NOT like the US3. You completely ignored the vast majority of my post. When a 787/777/757/767 is flying rotations across oceans and such, when do you think MX work/inspections are done? In South America, for example, they're done during the sit times, during the day, in those stations by contract MX. For SWA, the 3rd shift is heav(y,ier) MX work. In fact, ask around, the fine MX folks at SWA in DAL know they're working hard after the last bank of inbounds. Contract MX can clear many items on the MX logs, but in the world of SWA, an asset like an aircraft will touch a SWA MX base as some point during the day and will get the appropriate LUVing care it deserves.

On your Post? I can see that as WN has fewer mechanics doing more work (reportedly) than most other Major carriers. Our smallest sift at United was the swing shift. where other than Terminal Maintenance. We mostly worked on out of service airplanes but picked up and parked the inbound overnight airplanes for Mids to work them.

WN outsources over 80% of their maintenance. They have 2,300 mechanics for 754 airplanes. WN does less work in-house than any other airline. They just agreed to move eight lines of US based overhaul outsourcing to foreign vendors.

AA does more in-house maintenance on their own fleet than any other US based airline. We have 9,700 mechanics for 962 planes. We outsource about 35% of maintenance. We have heavy maintenance bases in CLT, DFW, PHL, PHX, PIT and TUL and line hangars at the hubs and focus cities.

The argument that the yields on redeye flights is significantly lower ("trashy" was how one poster put it) is specious. There is no data that the yields are lower.

As far as ground crew, they are already working on arrivals along the west coast between 930PM and 1130PM anyway, and that is when redeyes for the east coast and central time zone depart. The east coast arrivals are after 0500 when the ground staff is already servicing early AM departures.

CobaltScar wrote:

The Pilots and the FAs have HUGE pay increase adjustments when doing redeye flying. On already trashy redeye yields, how much is left over to make these flights worth it form a profit standpoint?

Not true. NO pay increase for night/holiday/red eye flights for Delta pilots. Same pay all day. International get about a 5$ bump. Good money maker for Delta. Only trashy thing is the trash left behind when the tired 1/2 awake passengers leave the plane. Your research was .......not researched....

Cheers

reltney wrote:

CobaltScar wrote:

The Pilots and the FAs have HUGE pay increase adjustments when doing redeye flying. On already trashy redeye yields, how much is left over to make these flights worth it form a profit standpoint?

Not true. NO pay increase for night/holiday/red eye flights for Delta pilots. Same pay all day. International get about a 5$ bump. Good money maker for Delta. Only trashy thing is the trash left behind when the tired 1/2 awake passengers leave the plane. Your research was .......not researched....

Cheers

Delta? I was talking about WN

Cheers

RobertS975 wrote:

The argument that the yields on redeye flights is significantly lower ("trashy" was how one poster put it) is specious. There is no data that the yields are lower.

It's common knowledge; Google 'why are redeye flights cheaper' and it'll kick back a plathoria of credible, reputable sources - including the NYT, WSJ, etc. - that make the claim. There's also antidotal evidence -- if you book your own flights and search for the lowest fares (NOT First Class), you'll notice that redeyes are most frequently the lowest option, especially on peak travel days. And don't forget that in the late 2000s, when fuel prices swelled, redeye flights were hit disproportionately hard, with many of these flights (e.g. LAS-DFW) not restored until recent years.

You can also think about it from a rational perspective: the cruise time on a flight from LAX/SFO-ORD is roughly (just over) 3 hours, from LAS it's 2.5 hours. It's just over 2 hours on LAS-DFW/MSP. For even the most experienced road warriors, getting to/via the airport Is a stressful event. Dealing with that, then getting just 2-3 hours sleep, makes for an incredibly unproductive day (following the flight).

The reason redeyes are cheaper is because it's typically pure aircraft utilization. The airline doesn't have to worry about its fixed costs, just its variable costs (its contribution). Of course, as with everything else, there are exceptions/flights where redeyes are popular (NYC-LAX/SFO).

CobaltScar wrote:

Delta? I was talking about WN

Cheers

Not true of WN, either. See my previous posting.